Numerich Arms H&A underhammer

[OBCoal]

I picked up this H&A knowing that it needs some work, the spring that hold the trigger in place is missing(not the big spring on the outside). I would appreciate any advice on where to find one. The stock has a crack (hairline) where it attaches to the frame, maybe need to find a stock also so again any help would be appreciated. THANKS284396

[kens]

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/underhammer.shtml

[OBCoal]

Thanks Kens

[Mr Peabody]

Gun Parts is a good place for these parts too

[bedbugbilly]

Try Deer Creek - they used to have parts for them.

In regards to your stock - I picked one up a few years ago - in 45. The wrist was also split on mine. I was able to spread the split enough to work in epoxy glue with a razor knife blade and then clamp it. It fixed it just fine and you would never know it had been fixed. The plastic buttplate was not in good shape so I took a piece of thicker brass plate, gently bent it to match the slight curve and made a new brass butylate fo it. I poured a pewter nose cap on the forearm and then refinished the wood and browned the receiver and barrel. It really dressed it up. I ended up selling it but I still have my H & A under hammer in .36 that I bought years ago from Deer Creek.

You might also check with Pecatonica River - they sell the under hammer action as well as their version of butt stock and fore arm machine carved blanks.



The H 7 As are pretty simple design and they are good shooters - lots of fun! The nice thing is that it is pretty simple to set them up with interchangeable barrels / calibers.

Keep in mind that the Numrich barrels used on many of the H & As often had "tight bores". I owned another one in 45 - where you would normally use a ,440 RB - a .437 worked better. The ones sold years ago thru magazines like Popular Mechanics, etc, came with a cheap bullet mold. If your's is a 45 - try a .440 - it may work just fine. If you find you want a bit smaller ball - there are .437 RB molds out there. Lyman made them as there were a lot of H & As sold in the 50s and 60s in 45. I always found the Numrich barreled guns I have owned to be excellent barrels and excellent shooters.

Good luck - you should be able to get the parts you need and get her fixed up - she's a little "diamond in the rough"!

[OBCoal]

Thanks everyone for the helpful info, really looking forward to getting this rifle back in shape and seeing how she shoots.

[Edward]

I have the Lyman mold for that gun (hollow base )445599 as I owned a pretty restocked(H+A) 45 in curly maple sold on this site still own the mold if interested/Ed

[NEKVT]

For the the hairline crack you might try "Chair Tite". It is a super thin super glue that was designed to fix loose chairs and wicks into the chair joints and cracks in other wood items. I have used it on a couple stocks with good results.

[1Hawkeye]

Yep pecatonica bought all the underhammer line from deer creek. I built 4 of the deer creek kits they were all very accurate.

[bedbugbilly]

Ref: Hawkeye - When I decided to buy one of the Deer Creek under hammers, I had already owned and sold two H & As - both 45s. I ordered a .36 from Deer Creek - they were very nice folks to deal with - and I made arrangements to pick it up at their booth at Friendship. I stopped by their booth - picked up the rifle and had a nice visit with them and then headed over to the sheep sheds to buy a bag of .350 RBs and a tin of caps - I didn't have any caps with me as I had taken my flintlock down that year to shoot. I took the rifle over to the line and bought a practice target and after cleaning the bore, I shot the target. I'm not a "competitive shooter" - I shoot for fun and used to enjoy the events over on the Primitive side like trying to split a ball on a axe, fire starting, etc. That little .36 under hammer shot terrific just as it was when I picked it up. It's one rifle I'll never part with.

Ref Edward - I have the same mold - the 445-599 HB - the first one I bought (used) turned out to be "mis-stamped" by Lyman and it dropped .452 or so HB boolits - the second mold I picked up (used) was right on and it fit the bore of the H & A 45 that I fixed up. I regret selling that rifle now but if I run across a 45 barrel sometime, I'll probably make it as a swap out barrel so I can shoot both RB and that 335-599,

OP - what is the caliber of the rifle you picked up to fix up? I picked up a H & A .45 at a gun show one time many years ago - I think I paid something like $40.00 for it -= it was a no-brainer as the barrel alone was worth that. The guy was up front and told me it was "broken" and was only good for parts as "you can't get parts anymore". I just smiled and forked over two Andy Jacksons and walked away smiling - never even dickered with him as I was more than willing to pay his price. IIRC - the barrel was marked "Offhand" - which they used to mark their model of the rifle on the barrel. He was right - the rifle was "broken" as the hammer and a piece broken off where the sear locks the hammer at full cock. The next day, I gave Deer Creek a call and in a week I had a new hammer and I also purchased a new trigger - took all of about ten minutes to change the hammer and trigger and WALLA! . . . the rifle was "broken" no more. That's another one that I "should have kept" but didn't. :-)

I looked in my parts but I do't have any for the H & A under hammer or I would just send them to you. Keep us posted on how your parts search is coming - another place to keep and eye on is flabby as sometimes I have seen some under hammer parts listed there. I picked up two different breech plugs for the H & A on there so hopefully if I run across a decent barrel, I can set it up to swap out when I want to.

[1Hawkeye]

The first 1 I built was a. 36 it was a great little rifle for ground hogs.

[OBCoal]

The rifle is a Heritage model in 45cal, the more I look at the hammer and trigger assembly I believe there is no spring that puts pressure on the trigger, the contact point where the trigger engages the hammer is worn out (just slips when going to full cock,will not hold). tried calling pecatonica but they are out until the 16th, gun corps has a new hammer, but I would like to get the parts from one place if at all possible. As far as the stock is concerned my neighbor does a lot of wood working and he is going to fix it. I will update as I progress, Thanks everyone.

[1Hawkeye]

Nice, my second deer creek build was a .45 when you get her up and running try 60 grs of 3fg with a .440" round ball. Your right about the spring the only spring in the design is actually the trigger guard which doubles as the mainspring. You could try to recut the notch in the hammer to increase the sear engagement and if that doesn't work you can get replacements from pecatonica when they are back from vacation.

[dondiego]

You need a trigger return spring.

[OBCoal]

Update: Ordered new parts from Deer Creek got them today. New hammer,main spring, trigger and spring.284910 no slot in old trigger284911

[bedbugbilly]

OBCoal – I did some hunting and finally located some photos of the H & A that I repaired. I apologize for the poor quality of the photos but hopefully they will give you an idea of what I did.

As you can see, the wrist of the buttstock was split on both sides and of course the mounting bolt for mounting the buttstock to the receiver runs up through the wrist. I was able to gently spread the splits with a chisel from the end grain and work in epoxy glue into the cracks with a thin razor knife blade. For this repair, I felt epoxy would be the strongest but there are a lot of new glues out there that I’m sure would work just as good. Unless your stock is in really bad shape, you should be able to fix it or your neighbor as you indicated. When I got done with mine, the repair was pretty much invisible and only I would know it. The trick is to get the glue into the crack and spread over the entire surface and then clamp it securely but so as to not damage the contours of the wrist.

My plastic butt plate was pretty much toast. The end of the butt stock has a gentle curve on it and the plastic butt plate had a crack as well as what appeared to be shrinkage so that the edges were not flush with the wood contour. I debated on what to do with it and finally remembered that I had a number of pieces of brass sheet material that I used to cut inlays out of when I built rifles as well as for using for odd repairs, etc. I had a thicker piece and it was pretty simple to use the old plastic butt plate as a template to trace around and locate the screw holes – then I cut around the lines on the brass plate about 1/8” outside of the traced lines. I carefully put the brass in a vise and gently bent it to match the curve of the buttstock and once that was done, I mounted it to the stock. I like “Frog Tape” for a lot of reasons (as used in painting). I wrapped several layers around the butt stock where the brass meets the wood and then used a mill file to contour the edge of the new butt plate to the shape fo the stock. When I got down to the tape, I used a small block of wood with fine emery paper on it and finished sanded the edge of the brass – then removed the tape and removed the new butt plate and beveled the outside edge a bit with a small mill file. It made a good solution for a replacement butt plate.

I wanted to “dress” the rifle up a bit more, so I decided to pour a nose cap. Some folks tibg that pouring a nose cap is a difficult thing, but if you have never poured one, watch some videos on it, take your time in setting it up to pour and you’ll do just fine. I have poured a number of them on both half- stocks and full-stocks. Your normally pour (at least on a new build) after the stock is profiled. When I pour mine, I pour them so that they are a bit “proud” over the surface of the wood. I then use my old friend “Frog Tape” and wrap the wood portion next to the rough poured nose cap. I have found that a small hand held vibrating sander, starting with coarse sandpaper and working down to finer grit, is an excellent way to shape the poured nose cap – then when it is close to the contour of the wood, I switch to a small sanding block with very fine grit paper - then finish the job by using rubbing compound like you get at the auto parts for polishing out paint.

Another issue with the rifle was the single ramrod thimble. It was loose and "spinning" on the underside of the barrel. It was a fairly simple fix by removing it - cleaning the thimble and barrel - clamping in place and position with stove-pipe wire and then soft soldering back in place.

I ended up refinishing the stock by using boiled linseed oil thinned down by real turpentine (not the artificial turpentine that is available now). The barrel, etc. I finished using Plumb Brown. I had initially planned to use this rifle (.45 cal) for shootibg from a bench for fun, but other things got in the way and I ended up selling it. Had I kept it, I would have inlaid a brass cap-box (patch box) on the butt stock.

Please excuse my enthusiasm for these under hammer rifles – I just think that they are a great design and a nice shooting firearm – I know they aren’t for some folks as we all like different things, but that’s O.K. A lot of these old H & As were sold and they are out there if you look for them – plus you can always build your own using parts like Pecatonica offers. They are simple, yet you can make them as fancy or as plain as you like.

I used to shoot right handed, but due to the loss of the central vision in my right eye, I had to switch to shooting left handed. That is another thing that is so nice about these rifles – they work great for both lefties and righties. I have built a number of percussion and flintlock rifles over the years – I can’t do the fine work anymore due to the vision issues – but I have a GM 40 caliber barrel left on the barrel rack and I am considering building an under hammer using that barrel, curly maple for the wood and making it a “full stock” with a fore arm running the full length of the barrel.

I’m so glad you were able to get the parts you needed and I’m excited for you to get the rifle back in shape so you can shoot it. I don’t care how young or old a person is – these rifles will put a smile on your face.

Good luck with it and please keep us posted on it – and have fun!

[Maven]

Nice work, Jim!

All, when my wife and I moved to Ulster Co. in 1970, those H & A rifles and pistols were quite common since Numrich Arms was only ~10 miles away and their showroom was quite the place to visit. Not long ago someone showed up at a local woods walk with a underhammer rifle in VG+ condition for a fair price. (I didn't buy it.)

[bedbugbilly]

Maven - years ago, my brother and I used to shoot round ball with a very relaxed loose knit group of guys at the Heritage Range down near Somerset, MI - the property was owned by Mike Yack and Mike was nice enough to let us use a spot to shoot. I also use to shoot N-SSA at the same location.

We might get ten guys to show up - a Sunday afternoon - everyone would bring a trinket to throw on a blanket so nobody was a looser. One of the guys who used to shoot with us was Honer Dangler and of course he made some beautiful guns. There was a fellow who usually showed up - I have forgotten his name - but he had a H & A under hammer with a .32 caliber barrel on it. Of course there was always a lot of teasing going on back and forth and he took the brunt of it sometimes when we all would kid him about his toy gun. IIRC, he carried a small horn and everything else he needed for that .32 was carried in and old musket cap tin - balls, caps, patches, etc.

They always say . . . "beware of themas who shoots only one gun" . . and that saying certainly applied to the fellow with the little H & A under hammer .32 because he usually cleaned all of our clocks with his shooting - no fancy targets - an X on a wood shingle on the side of a tree or similar - always at an odd distance - but boy - he could sure shoot that under hammer and had no problems going against some mighty fine custom built guns in the process.

[dondiego]

I knew Mike Yeck of Dundee, MI. He had a show room where he sold ML's and supplies. He also had a great collection of Civil War stuff including a Gatling gun and cannons. I also knew Homer Dangler. Fine craftsman!

[bedbugbilly]

dondiego - I first met Mike through a mutual friend who took me under his wing when I was young and got me started in N-SSA. One of the first Smith Carbines I ever shot was owned by my friend and it was one of the Smiths that Mike took measurements from when he was setting up to reproduce them - after Mike's death, it was my understanding that the equipment to make it was sold to Pietta.

That gatling gun you speak of . . . . Mike was always very kind and helpful to me . . at one of the shoots at his farm - the Heritage Range - he set up the gatling for a demonstration and it was aimed at a pyramid of 5 gallon steel buckets filled with water. Onceit was set up - he came back to the line and told me to come with him. We went out to the gun and he gave me the honor cranking and firing it - which chewed up that pyramid of cans big time - what a thrill it was for me.

The last time I daw Mike before he died was at the Civil War show at Mansfield, Ohio. He was coming out of one of the buildings and spotted me and gave a yell at me. We sat at a nearby picnic table and he was so excited about showing me some photos he had in his pocket - he got quite involved in restoring WWII vehicles and had a collection. He had taken a Jeep overseas to France to enter into a competition and he was so proud of it as it took first prize. All of the other jeeps were pristine like they had just come off the assembly line - his was like one that had seen service - holes in the seats, a wood chicken crate with chickens in it strapped to the hood, etc. He got quite a kick out of it and related how it resembled what his memory of them were when he was overseas during the war. At one time, he had one of the most complete Civil War carbine collections in the world. The first time I met him was after hours at his mfg. plant in Dundee and he took me into his office to show them to me. Again, another thrill to be handed an engraved presentation Sharps that had been presented to U.S. Grant. I thought the world of him and he was quite a guy.

Homer Dangler - a fine gentleman who made beautiful guns and was always willing to give advice to others about building guns. He was fun to shoot with and I always enjoyed stopping by his booth Friendship to see hi and his wife. Another one at Friendship that I liked to always stop and see him and his wife was Myron Carlson. Myron specialized in Bean rifles an also made fantastic hand forged rifle furniture. I used his furniture on several rifles I built - one a flint Virginia style rifle. One time that I stopped by their booth he wanted to show me what his previous winter's project was and he pulled it out of a case and handed it to me. It was a replica Bean rifle that was quarter scale - a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. Great folks, all of them.

[dondiego]

Sounds like you knew them personally. I was aware of Mike's military vehicle collection and he once took my father and I into his CW Rifle collection room! I had never seen anything like that! I own one of Mike's Smith Carbine's. It is an excellent example. I sure miss that little store off the side of his business in Dundee!

[OBCoal]

Nice rifle Bedbugbilly , my stock is cracked in the same way. I bought a bore scope to look into the barrel and didn't like what I found, pitted gouge marks like someone ran a steel rod down it, has a spot where the patch snags, thinking I may have to get a new barrel unless there is a way to save it. 285103 and lots of rust

[John Taylor]

Under hammers are fun. This is a little 32 that I made about 20 years ago.
285143

[OBCoal]

Got the most of the rust out and took some more pics,not looking good. BTW that is a fine looking rifle Mr. Taylor. 285234

[John Taylor]

Got the most of the rust out and took some more pics,not looking good. BTW that is a fine looking rifle Mr. Taylor. 285234

Thank you. I have been building under hammers for many years as a hobby. Most of them get sold along the way. The one pictured is in my oldest daughters hands now. A 72 cal. under hammer pistol was fun.

[John Taylor]

First time trying out the 72 caliber under hammer pistol. Round ball weighs 1 & 1/4 ounce. This pistol has Forsyth type rifling, very narrow lands and wide grooves. Pictured next to a 1911. The barrel was shortened about 4" after the picture, to barrel heavy.

285250 285251

[OBCoal]

I have decided to get a new barrel, the big question for me is how to do the breech plug, this rifle has the tapered pin holding the barrel on. Do I use the old and fit it to come out the same length or make a new one. I have no idea how they did it at the factory (drilling the tapered hole, was it installed in the barrel and attached to the frame and then drilled? ). Any insight or suggestions would be most appreciated. I have a lathe and mill, one other question is the nipple depth (mine is somewhat recessed in the barrel).

[Gunor]

Track of the Wolf has different length nipples for underhammer. Fit one based on wall thickness - maybe install flash guard.

[John Taylor]

I have decided to get a new barrel, the big question for me is how to do the breech plug, this rifle has the tapered pin holding the barrel on. Do I use the old and fit it to come out the same length or make a new one. I have no idea how they did it at the factory (drilling the tapered hole, was it installed in the barrel and attached to the frame and then drilled? ). Any insight or suggestions would be most appreciated. I have a lathe and mill, one other question is the nipple depth (mine is somewhat recessed in the barrel).

The taper pin is a standard taper pin size, I don't remember the number but I do have the reamer for it. Hard part is getting it so that it holds the barrel tight to the frame and still seals the breach. The plug is 5/8" diameter with fine thread ( I think 18 TPI ). Probably be best to fit the barrel to the action with the plug in the action so you can get a good fit. Having the barrel in the lathe and using lay out die to check for a good seal at the breach. After the barrel is fit to the action then the sight dovetails are cut and thimbles are installed. Drilling for the forearm pins will require a good drill press or mill to get the holes just right using a small end mill to cut into the octagon barrel at and angle to the flat on the barrel. Barrel needs to be clamped in a way that the forearm can be removed after lining up on the hole. The nipple hole is counter sunk on many of the H&As. The originals had an odd size nipple and I choose to do them in 1/4- 28 to take a standard nipple. Might try Jim Carpenter ( 208-582-2091 ) for a barrel, he does custom barrel work for muzzle loaders at a good price.

[2152hq]

Under hammers are fun. This is a little 32 that I made about 20 years ago.
285143

Are those the ones you made the frame by bending a solid piece of bronze round stock in a press you made?
Pretty little rifles. Simple is nice!

[OBCoal]

Thanks John for the info. That pistol sure is nice, I would bet that its a handful when fired.

[John Taylor]

Are those the ones you made the frame by bending a solid piece of bronze round stock in a press you made?
Pretty little rifles. Simple is nice!

Brass or steel frame, bore a hole, bend and machine for hammer and trigger. Three sizes, 1", 1.125" and 1.250". Hammer and trigger are the same ones used in the H&A. Started making them when I didn't have enough money to buy one.

[John Taylor]

Thanks John for the info. That pistol sure is nice, I would bet that its a handful when fired.

With 30 - 40 grains it's not bad. A 12 gauge load would be closer to 80 grains and I don't want to try it. Years ago I made another one and was using a hollow base wad cutter that weighed close to 700 grains, with 45 grains of powder it kicked hard but it put nice 3/4" hole in the target.

[yeahbub]

I had gotten an H&A underhammer from Deer Creek some years ago, but the breech plug shank was never less than a bit wobbly. Accuracy was less than precise in my experience. Anybody else notice this?

The hole was .625, so I looked up the closest thread which would work, jigged up the receiver, trued the face square to the hole and tapped the hole 3/4-10. The barrels were breeched up so that there was still a .005" gap between the shoulder of my over-large round stock and the end of the barrel when torqued in tight, assuring a tight seal at the breech end of the of the rifling, no openings or leaks to the threads. I turned breech plugs for them, threaded them 3/4-10 and skinned the shoulder back until they were ~1/4 turn from having the sights vertical so they'd be tight in the receiver when correctly positioned. The oversize OD was milled off octagon to match the barrel flats, so now I had barrels I could screw into the receiver which would be repeatably positioned to a witness mark on the receiver face and remain there. This fixed the accuracy issues. The .40 cal fast twist is particularly accurate with 330gr paper patched boolits. To prevent gas erosion issues in the nipple, I used an Accra-Shot "nipple" which uses a small primer.

[1Hawkeye]

I had 2 of the deer creek kits and got actions with buttocks to build a couple of .50 cal benchrest guns with. Never had a problem with any of them flopping around. Deer creeks 3 set screws to hold the barrel in place was much better than the tapered pins used in the H&A guns.

[Hanshi]

I ordered a Heritage Model .45 many decades ago and killed bobcats, deer and squirrels with it. I simply bonded with that rifle and think of it as an old partner. But a few years ago problems started with the trigger not returning after cocking or firing. The big TG spring which serves as the trigger spring, hammer spring had a tab that functioned as the trigger return spring. That tab died and instead of being "springy" it bent when the trigger was pulled. The trigger then had to be pushed back into battery manually. This rendered the rifle unsafe to use, IMO, so I put it up on display. I tried to find a spring to replace the malfunctioning one for years without any luck. So until I cobble up a way for the trigger to return to battery it shall remain a wall hanger. Finding good parts for old guns is mostly impossible and sol for my H&A.

[John Taylor]

I ordered a Heritage Model .45 many decades ago and killed bobcats, deer and squirrels with it. I simply bonded with that rifle and think of it as an old partner. But a few years ago problems started with the trigger not returning after cocking or firing. The big TG spring which serves as the trigger spring, hammer spring had a tab that functioned as the trigger return spring. That tab died and instead of being "springy" it bent when the trigger was pulled. The trigger then had to be pushed back into battery manually. This rendered the rifle unsafe to use, IMO, so I put it up on display. I tried to find a spring to replace the malfunctioning one for years without any luck. So until I cobble up a way for the trigger to return to battery it shall remain a wall hanger. Finding good parts for old guns is mostly impossible and sol for my H&A.

There are a couple ways to fix the trigger spring. A piece of piano wire under the hammer spring screw will work. I did several with a screw that could be used as a trigger stop with a small coil spring around it. The stop would stop the trigger travel as soon as the hammer was released. I made the screw from 1/8" welding rod with no head, drilled and tapped the frame to line up with the trigger. This will not work on the models made from thin wall tube. The later triggers had a slot cut through the pivot hole for a spring that wend around the pivot screw.

[bob208]

I have 6 of them. been using them in matches for 30 years .

[OBCoal]

Ordered a new barrel from Pecatonica River should get here some time next week. The taper pin is not exactly on the center line of the frame so I might have the holes welded up and just use set screws seems like an easier fix.

[Jedman]

I wish the name Numerich , would go away. The company’s name is Numrich. For years on different forums I see it spelled Numerich or Numerick and it drives me �� how this happened nobody knows but it keeps going.
Sorry for the rant .

Jedman

[OBCoal]

Update, after a long spell of not working on the under hammer I finally got to the finish line,( or so I thought) the new hammer is short of going over the nipple. At first glance it looks like the hole for the nipple is too far forward, but measuring it compared to the old barrel, its the same within a few thou.. Old hammer fits just fine but I would like to use the new one, any suggestions would be welcome.

301410 301411

[1Hawkeye]

The same thing happened with the last one I built. What I did was open up the front of the skirt to clear the cone with a dremel using a dental burr. You don't have to remove alot just enough to clear the side of a capped cone.

[KCSO]

Heat it and straighten it a little. Probably casting shrinkage. If you cut away the front of the hammer skirt you will vent more gas to your arm.

[John Taylor]

one of the problems with the H&R design, the hammer nose is not lined up with the pivot point of the hammer. I have done several over the years where I angled the nipple to line up with the hammer. This only works when making a new barrel but it would be possible to make an over size plug to fill the nipple hole and drill and tap a new hole. I have been playing around with the H&A stile under hammer for over 40 years and have made my own frames to use the H&A hammer and trigger but now Pecatonica will not sell me hammers or trigger so that runs the time up for a build.

[OBCoal]

The strange thing about the new hammer is when it it down all the way without nipple301471 it is centered. Going to work on it this weekend and see what happens

[John Taylor]

The strange thing about the new hammer is when it it down all the way without nipple301471 it is centered. Going to work on it this weekend and see what happens

A short nipple may take care of the problem. The old H&Rs used a 1/4"-32 nipple, Track of the wolf has some.

[OBCoal]

Heated and bent hammer and ground a little out of the inside of hammer cup, works good now. Here are a few pics of the rifle, added a short post for the rear sight, lyman front sight and original rear sight. Made the ramrod pipe out of 1/2 brass hex stock, ramrod is a little long but I don't plan on using it. Also used a set screw to hold barrel to frame so as to hold it in place to drill taper hole.301612 . 301613.301614. Now my other H&A has a buddy 301615