Help with Swiss Schmidt Rubin 1889

[Indy650]

Hey I have been lurking a long time but just joined today. My uncle has a 1889 Schmidt Rubin and wants to shoot it. We have found that modern 7.5X55MM chambers just fine. I know the modern powder load is too much for the 1889 but what I want to know is can I use the 55MM case to home load ammo for the 1889 or will there be an issue with head spacing? Second, I have some questions on the powder loads. I searched but there are so many different powders that I wanted to ask. I know that no advice is set in stone and I am responsible for whatever we use. He has some Vihtavourti 24N41 that can be used for 50 BMG and some magnum cartridges. It is really slow burning would that be acceptable powder to use? He also has some Accurate 2460 but wouldn't that be too hot of a powder? Lastly, what about the powder in the modern 75X55? Is it a different burn rate than GP90 ammo or would a lighter load of that powder work? I apologize in advance if these are annoying or frequent questions and thank you for any help.

[Wayne Smith]

I assume you are in the EU? What data do you have available to you? Any of the VV or Luvox powders ought to have data available and be relatively available.
Do you have some modern 7.5x55 ammo available to pull down? Is that why you are asking about that powder?

Your powder source should have data available for the 7.5x55 1899 and a call to those producers will usually result in a lot of information specific to your needs. That would be my first call for information.

[Indy650]

I assume you are in the EU? What data do you have available to you? Any of the VV or Luvox powders ought to have data available and be relatively available.
Do you have some modern 7.5x55 ammo available to pull down? Is that why you are asking about that powder?

Your powder source should have data available for the 7.5x55 1899 and a call to those producers will usually result in a lot of information specific to your needs. That would be my first call for information.

Ok thanks I'll try looking up data or calling the powder manufacturer. I live in the US. Yeah my uncle has a few boxes of the 7.5X55MM and for powder(and ammo) it's practically impossible to find and he happens to have the two types I listed. Any powder I have found is upwards of 100 bucks a pound and that's just outrageous. As for just buying GP90 ammo I dont think it's produced and even if I found some that we dared shoot with it being over 100 yrs old I'm guessing it's super expensive.

[Indy650]

I'm new to reloading so I dont really know where to look for data. Ive tried googling of course but there is so many different powders I get confused and I havent yet found load data on the powder I have that includes the 1889's GP90 ammo.

[am44mag]

Yes, do not shoot GP11 in an 89'. It will beat itself to death. GP90, GP90/03 or GP90/23 are the only surplus factory rounds that are safe for it.

For reloading, the 7.5x55 cases should be fine. They headspace off the shoulder, not the neck, which is what's longer in the later Swiss cartridges like the GP11. Unless it's jaming the neck into the rifling, I'd leave the brass as is. The original bullets used in GP90 were very oversized hollow base paper patched heeled cast bullets with a steel cap over the nose. Don't even worry about trying to find a design like that today, they don't exist. You can shoot normal jacketed .308" bullets in it, or maybe see if you can find a 180gr-200gr round nose cast bullet between 0.309"-0.312". I would probably go for something in the .312" range, though the best way to know for sure is to slug your barrel. The throats in the 89's are like a cavern, so it will chamber dang near anything you shove in it. Just make sure it's a round nose bullet, no flat nose (meplat). Mine has some feeding issues with bullets with even a small amount of meplat. I don't know if that's common or just a thing mine does, but I figured I'd throw that info out there.

Powder wise, I can't help you much there. I've been shooting cast bullets with pistol powders like Red Dot and 2400 in mine. 30-40 Krag data seems to be safe to use in that gun, at least as far as cast bullets go. I have not tried jacketed bullets in it yet. 1889 jacketed data is going to be a little hard to come by.

There's a lot of data out there on cast bullets in the 89' (and the 30-40 Krag) using Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, and 2400. Are any of those powders available where you live?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Do you have an 1889 rifle or a 1889/96 rifle? Are the bolt locking lugs on the front of the bolt, or the rear? The original 1889s had rear locking lugs, but the rifle was updated in 1896 to front locking lugs. The 89/96 rifles were stronger, but still short of the 1911 model.

The original 1889 rifle used a 0.299 dia. bullet and 213 gr. paper patched Bullet and 29 gr. of a semi-smokeless powder. You will need to slug the bore of your rifle to determine the actual bore diameter. If it turns out to be .308 dia., then you have one of the 89/96 models.

You are correct that the 1911 loading should not be used in the 1889, and the 1911 load carries a .308 dia. bullet. If it is a .308 dia. it will still need to be downloaded.

You might locate some 7.35mm Italian bullets which are a true .30 dia., and try the universal old military gun load of 12 gr. of Unique or 12 gr. of Red Dot as a place to begin.

DG

[Indy650]

Yes, do not shoot GP11 in an 89'. It will beat itself to death. GP90, GP90/03 or GP90/23 are the only surplus factory rounds that are safe for it.

For reloading, the 7.5x55 cases should be fine. They headspace off the shoulder, not the neck, which is what's longer in the later Swiss cartridges like the GP11. Unless it's jaming the neck into the rifling, I'd leave the brass as is. The original bullets used in GP90 were very oversized hollow base paper patched heeled cast bullets with a steel cap over the nose. Don't even worry about trying to find a design like that today, they don't exist. You can shoot normal jacketed .308" bullets in it, or maybe see if you can find a 180gr-200gr round nose cast bullet between 0.309"-0.312". I would probably go for something in the .312" range, though the best way to know for sure is to slug your barrel. The throats in the 89's are like a cavern, so it will chamber dang near anything you shove in it. Just make sure it's a round nose bullet, no flat nose (meplat). Mine has some feeding issues with bullets with even a small amount of meplat. I don't know if that's common or just a thing mine does, but I figured I'd throw that info out there.

Powder wise, I can't help you much there. I've been shooting cast bullets with pistol powders like Red Dot and 2400 in mine. 30-40 Krag data seems to be safe to use in that gun, at least as far as cast bullets go. I have not tried jacketed bullets in it yet. 1889 jacketed data is going to be a little hard to come by.

There's a lot of data out there on cast bullets in the 89' (and the 30-40 Krag) using Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, and 2400. Are any of those powders available where you live?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
thanks that's some great info! closest i have to 2400 is some 2460.

[Indy650]

thanks for the info! It's an 1889 antique and has the rear locking lugs. Serial # is 88000 range. I guess we will have to try slugging the barrel before settling on a boolit size.

[gwpercle]

I pulled out my 1967 Hornady Handloading Manual (1st edition , first printing) because I bought a 1911 in 1967 and this was the only manual with data .
Unfortunately it says the data should only be used only in Model 1896/11 , model 1911 or Model 31 Schmidt Rubin rifles . They give no data or instructions on reducing loads for the 1889 rifle ...
Original 7.5 Swiss loads used .307" bullets but .308" bullets are used to reload and develop the Hornady data ...they do caution about exceeding max loads/pressures as the case heads are NOT fully supported in the Schmidt Rubin rifles "overloads can be extremely dangerous."
I'm sorry to report that was a dead end ... for a minute I thought I might have some data for you .
Good luck in the data quest ...I'll keep looking .
Gary

[am44mag]

thanks that's some great info! closest i have to 2400 is some 2460.

Sorry, I should have specified. It's Alliant 2400, not an Accurate powder product. There's a BIG difference between those two powders.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/2400.aspx

No problem at all on the powder. I did a little bit of looking into the Accurate 2460 and Vihtavourti 24N41 data. The 24N41 is for VERY large magnum cartridges like 50 BMG and 338 Lapua. I don't think your going to find much use for it beyond that. The 2460 seems to be in the neighborhood of what might be reasonable for what you're wanting. It's burn rate is right in the middle of several powders that 7.5x55 can use, but Accurate doesn't have any data for that cartridge. I couldn't even give you a rough estimate of where you might want to begin with that powder to replicate GP90 pressures. I'd give them a call just in case they have some info they haven't published.

Here's a burn rate chart if you're interested in looking through it.

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf

[Indy650]

Sorry, I should have specified. It's Alliant 2400, not an Accurate powder product. There's a BIG difference between those two powders.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/2400.aspx

No problem at all on the powder. I did a little bit of looking into the Accurate 2460 and Vihtavourti 24N41 data. The 24N41 is for VERY large magnum cartridges like 50 BMG and 338 Lapua. I don't think your going to find much use for it beyond that. The 2460 seems to be in the neighborhood of what might be reasonable for what you're wanting. It's burn rate is right in the middle of several powders that 7.5x55 can use, but Accurate doesn't have any data for that cartridge. I couldn't even give you a rough estimate of where you might want to begin with that powder to replicate GP90 pressures. I'd give them a call just in case they have some info they haven't published.

Here's a burn rate chart if you're interested in looking through it.

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf
thanks again!
edit: thanks for the explanation on the powder that's where I get confused I dont see why the companies dont go by the same numbering so that it wouldnt matter what the brand was. oh well Im starting to learn.

[Indy650]

I pulled out my 1967 Hornady Handloading Manual (1st edition , first printing) because I bought a 1911 in 1967 and this was the only manual with data .
Unfortunately it says the data should only be used only in Model 1896/11 , model 1911 or Model 31 Schmidt Rubin rifles . They give no data or instructions on reducing loads for the 1889 rifle ...
Original 7.5 Swiss loads used .307" bullets but .308" bullets are used to reload and develop the Hornady data ...they do caution about exceeding max loads/pressures as the case heads are NOT fully supported in the Schmidt Rubin rifles "overloads can be extremely dangerous."
I'm sorry to report that was a dead end ... for a minute I thought I might have some data for you .
Good luck in the data quest ...I'll keep looking .
Gary

thanks for looking that was nice of you. Definitely some good people on this forum

[am44mag]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the bullet dimensions. I've done a lot of looking into this and found a lot of different answers. Finally, I sought out people who actually had original bullets that they could measure themselves. One had posted his info on a forum some years back, the other is from Switzerland. They both had almost exactly the same measurements. The only difference was the heel diameter, and it was a very small difference. I tried to get a mold made that would closely replicate these measurements, but everybody's been swamped with orders since COVID hit and it just hasn't happened. I'm almost tempted to buy a small lathe and see about making it myself. Maybe a set of dies to replicate the steel cap too.

Take these numbers as you will, but these were gathered from two different bullets from different sides of the world. I cannot say as to why they would use such an oversized bullet. It seems odd to me.

Cast bullet body dia = 0.315"
Patched dia = 0.321"
Heel dia = 0.300"-0.302"
Heel length = 0.233"
Total length - 1.167"
Weight = 211gr

Indy, I wouldn't worry too much about the original design though. Slug the bore, pick something at least 0.001-0.002" larger (for cast) or the same size (for jacketed) and you'll be good to go.


thanks for looking that was nice of you. Definitely some good people on this forum

No problem at all, and yes, there's a lot of great people on this forum. I have learned an incredible amount of stuff about casting and reloading from the great folks here.

[ascast]

Der Gebirgsjager -- spot on regarding bore size. I shot a box of 7.5 x55 through the earlier gun when much younger, I lived but it was a memorable experience. Kinda painful.

[garandsrus]

There is a Swiss Rifles forum that may help: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theswissriflesdotcommessageboard/straight-pull-rifles-f5/index-s75.html

[Indy650]

There is a Swiss Rifles forum that may help: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theswissriflesdotcommessageboard/straight-pull-rifles-f5/index-s75.html

thanks!

[Indy650]

Der Gebirgsjager -- spot on regarding bore size. I shot a box of 7.5 x55 through the earlier gun when much younger, I lived but it was a memorable experience. Kinda painful.

sounds like you got lucky! the lugs seem pretty damn strong on the 1889 but I guess having the lugs in the rear is the problem. If i recall correctly the lugs were in the rear because the gun was designed for black powder and front lugs would gum up too fast. Funny the intricate design of that bolt to help with black powder fouling ended up being all for nothing seeing they ended up using smokeless powder from the beginning. Gotta say though I love the designs of the Swiss rifles. I would die for one of the prototype Sig semi-auto's based on the K31 design

[Gewehr-Guy]

I have been getting VG accuracy with 20 grs of Buffalo Rifle powder, and several cast bullets. Another good powder to try is RL-7 or 4895. You will find the neck expands a lot when fired, and may crack after a couple of sizings, so they need to be annealed often. I installed a set of Swiss Products reciever sights on my 1889, and it can shoot very well

[Whole Bunches]

I have a first year production 1889. I have not slugged the bore or done a chamber cast or throat measurement. I use regular 7.5x55 untrimmed brass with no problems. My 1889 is what got me back into casting. The bore looks new to excellent to me.

2 casting friends gave me sample gas check cast bullets of different styles and weights (155-200gr) sized .309, .310, .311, and 314" to try. The .314" sized was the Lyman 314299 others were Lee and Lyman 30 caliber rifle bullets. They were in the 15 and 22bnh ranges. Every one shot good enough for my standards (groups smaller than the bottom of a soda can at 35yd...the distance of our club's plinking range) and easily beat my "standard" by more than half for that rifle, distance, and my eyesight. However, every bullet left visible lead buildup at the beginning of the rifling after each 5 shot group (otherwise no leading in the bore), easily removed with a few passes of a brass bore brush. I cleaned after each group, so I don't know if the lead buildup would have continued and been detrimental to accuracy. EXCEPT the .314" sized 314299. It gave fine accuracy and NO visible lead build up anywhere, so that's the one I use. I used various charges of Alliant 2400 in this long testing session also to find the load that shot the best.

The load I settled on: 16.0GR 2400, WW LARGE RIFLE PRIMER, LYMAN 314299 (LYMAN #2 ALLOY, 200-201GR SIZED .314" AND LUBED WITH NRA 50/50 LUBE), 3.12” OAL, 5 1/4” HIGH @ 25YD, 1385FPS AT 8’ AND 45 DEGREES, HITS 7 ¼” HIGH AT 35YD

It's a mild load in my opinion, and I have no concerns about shooting it in the 1889. After that testing session, I've not cleaned the bore at all and see no leading after 350 rounds with my load and not cleaning and no degrading of accuracy. The neck of my brass is certainly expanded so that part of my chamber must be generous, so I only partially neck size, just down about 1/10th an inch from the case mouth, only enough to hold the next bullet. The cases are kept separated for the 1889, and the body doesn't get resized. I've not lost a case yet. My bullets do stick out quite a bit in the loaded rounds, but even then don't make any contact with the rifling upon chambering, and do fit and feed perfect from the magazine. My 1889 certainly hits high at the distances I shoot it...probably due to the slow velocity and that the sights are 300m at the lowest, but I'm used to it and hit the cans and steel plates with no problem.

Here's a photo of my 1889 load on the left. You can see the expanded neck portion below where I've resized enough of the neck to hold the bullet firm for loading and firing. The round on the right is for my K31 when I used to partially resize the case. I now use a Lee collet neck sizing die on all 7.5x55 brass (brass is separate for each rifle) except my 1889...it would resize the neck more than needed on that rifle. That such an "oversize" bullet would work so well, I can't explain other than maybe it helps fill up the throat so hits the bore centered. Hope my experience helps some. After the testing, I decided to get back into casting and now cast and shoot thousands of boolits in my rifles and am lovin' it. My two casting friends got out of casting and I got their equipment and metal at attractive prices.

284400

[Eddie1971]

Here is a guy who loads Jacketed for his 1889.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xVFUAmv2I

Personally I shoot powder coated, gas checked cast from mine, sized to .312 or so. My powder of choice is 36 grains of IMR4350. 32 grains of IMR4895 also worked well. No high pressure signs and a pleasure to shoot. Also these used a smokeless powder not black or semi smokeless like a lot of people say.

[Indy650]

thanks for all the help guys. The accurate 2460 powder I have it turns out is just a little hotter than IMR 3031 which a lot of people use in the 1889 so I started at 25 grains of the 2460. I need to get a mold for cast bullets so I just used the .306 spitzer from the 7.5x55 ammo. Light kick maybe the kick of a .223. My uncle is gonna get a chronograph so we can determine better what to do next because this seemed like a really light load but we want to be sure.

[Indy650]

just curious what's the opinion on spitzer copper jacketed bullets in this rifle? the numbers people are getting on these bores wouldn't a Russian 7.62 bullet work good being at .309-.311?

[Eddie1971]

From what I see from people loading FMJ in theirs is that a heavy .308, preferably a flat backed bullet, not boat tailed works best.

[Indy650]

From what I see from people loading FMJ in theirs is that a heavy .308, preferably a flat backed bullet, not boat tailed works best.

yeah I seen that boat tail doesnt work good I wonder why that is... I have seen that some use .308 but some of these rifles measure out to like .314 so IDK I guess I just have to slug the bore.

[iron brigade]

284642
Group I shot with my 1889. Last group of the day.
12 grains of Sr 4756
311467 from old ideal mold, drops at .315 sized to .314 some yawing
Of the bullet on target. But shoots to the sights at 100 yards.

Brass is privi and not trimmed. I believe 4756 is discontinued but my club has a 8 lb jug. My '89 the old lady as I refer to her is one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Have fun.

[Indy650]

284642
Group I shot with my 1889. Last group of the day.
12 grains of Sr 4756
311467 from old ideal mold, drops at .315 sized to .314 some yawing
Of the bullet on target. But shoots to the sights at 100 yards.

Brass is privi and not trimmed. I believe 4756 is discontinued but my club has a 8 lb jug. My '89 the old lady as I refer to her is one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Have fun.

sweet. the 1889 is an awesome rifle such amazing machining and always with the Swiss way over-complicated. of course I know it was originally designed for black powder which is the reason for the rear lugs and long bolt to help reduce jamming due to fouling.

[iron brigade]

Actually the rifle used smokeless powder. See bloke on the range on you tube for excellent info on the subject.

[Indy650]

Actually the rifle used smokeless powder. See bloke on the range on you tube for excellent info on the subject.

yes I know it used smokeless powder but it was designed to use black powder.

[Indy650]

I got a chrono and my load of 26grains are sending a 168gr bullet at about 1700fps. I know this is slow but I'm concerned the accurate 2460 powder burns too fast so I'm not sure if it's safe to add more powder. Can anyone explain to me or point me to a good source for how to check for overpressure?

[26Charlie]

Velocity is not so much a consideration with cast bullets, 1700 FPS is fine. Of more concern is “does it group well” and “does it shoot to the sights” at the range you want to shoot it (usually 100 yards). I find with my M96/11s and M31s the 400 yard setting is good for 100 yards and longer range requires experimenting with each rifle. Grouping is within 3 inches at 100 yards and I can’t see better than that now anyway.