Krag leading badly

[coopersdad]

Hi all, I could use some advice with an m1898 Krag I've had for years but never fired, so decided it was about time. It has a decent bore, not super shiny but sharp rifling. I have no desire for a hunting rifle or hot loads, just paper punching targets. I've loaded large bore BPCR cartridges but never a small bore rifle with cast.

Bore slugs .308 groove, chamber cast shows a throat of .3114.

Boolits cast from 20-1 alloy in Accurate's version of 314299 drop about .313.

Gas checks are aluminum flashing, made using the checkmaker plans I found here.

Lube is White Label Lube 45-45-10, then size/seat checks in a Lee-type push through sizer, they come out about .3115. Then I lube again.

Necks expanded with an M-style mandrel, leaves about .001 neck tension. I can turn the bullet after seating, before lightly crimping. OAL is 3.12, bullet just touching the rifling but not enough to pull the bullet if I unload.

Here is the progression at 100 yds, all five-shot groups, total 30 shots, barrel to allowed to cool between groups:

2400 loads:

15 gr., 1417 fps, 2.85" group (2" with a flyer). Wow, this is promising.

15.5 gr., 1449 fps, 2.75" group (1.25" with a flyer). Even more promising.

16 gr., 1474 fps, 2.2" four shots, fifth one was 3"+ low. Hmmmm, that one felt OK....

Then some 5744 loads:

18 gr., 1540 fps, 5". Rats, try harder next group.

18.5 gr, 1580 fps, 8". What?

19 gr. 1601 fps, shouldn't there be holes?

The bore looked like a sewer pipe, could hardly make out rifling. After mining lead for an hour or so it's about back in shape. Lead seemed to be spread throughout the bore, based on roughness of the first patches.

My first thoughts are lube and alloy. Others seem to love 45-45-10 and have no issues. If I should use a harder alloy than 20-1, what should I go with? Maybe something else in my description screams out "wrong!!"?

Thanks for any advice, from those first groups I think this rifle should shoot well if I figure out how to do it.

[Adam Helmer]

coopersdad,

I have a few Krag rifles and carbines and none lead for me. I use old wheel weights and a dash of tin and drop the boolits from the mould into a bucket of water. I lube with alox and gas check an size .309."

What does your 20-1 alloy consist of? If it is lead/tin, the boolits are too soft in my opinion.

Adam

[coopersdad]

Yes, 20/1 lead/tin.

[Mk42gunner]

I think it is a combination of too soft lead and a lube that isn't quite right for the application. Don't get me wrong, I think tumble lubes are fine for most typical handguns at less than 1,000 fps and way less than a foot of barrel length. Asking for higher velocities and longer barrels is just too much in my opinion.

I've had good luck with the Lee 312-185 sized to .311" cast of plain old ACWW (12.5BHN) and FWFL in my .308s in front of 16 grains of 2400. If memory serves I was getting slightly under 1,600 fps.

Robert

[ShooterAZ]

I'd try adding some lino, WW, or hard shot to your alloy to harden it up some. Once you do this you could even water drop it if you are so inclined. If you have any regular Lee alox you could try that too. Lastly I would size to .312 and see what happens, but you're gonna wanna try one thing at a time to isolate the problem.

[NEKVT]

Since you have never shot it before these cast loads you might try 30 to 40 full power jacketed loads to smooth out any unusually roughness and then clean it back to bare metal before trying cast again. The first section of bores on original Krags are usually worn and dark so it's difficult to tell the actual condition.

[john.k]

Old advice is to clean any copper/nickle jacket fouling from the bore before using cast.......An ammonia cleaner,or maybe electrolysis will be needed if metallic fouling is heavy and hard to shift.

[coopersdad]

I did that when I decided to get it going. There was a lot of copper fouling, took me hours and lots of blue patches, I finally got it cleaned.

[Krag 1901]

My Krag 1901 barrel didn't lead up badly using LLA and copper GCs. It was pretty rough too. I've had real good luck, I guess, with LLA, just tumble lubing, GC and lube again. It doesn't take much. I changed the barrel with a new Criterion and it is a lot easier to clean now. I use less LLA now that I've had some experience with it.

Try a Lee 312-160-2R if you can find a mold. Works real good with 16-20 gr 2400 or 18-25 gr 4198. The Lee 309-200-R works good too, but the Lyman 314299, at .311" dia is golden!

A harder alloy will be better too. COWW at least, plus some tin might work for you. I started casting using straight Linotype and had no problems now using COWW and still no leading. SIze a bit larger .311 seems to be good in most Krags. Though some need .314! Krag barrels were not held to very tight tolerances.

[samari46]

Haven't started loading for my Krag yet, but in the 7.62x54r Finn model 27 all I have used is plain wheelweights with 2% tin. No leading, and great accuracy. NEKVY suggested might want to put some factory loaded or load some 180 grain bullets to factory levels and shoot them so as to smooth out your barrel. I've used JB compound on a patch wrapped around an old 30 cal bore brush. At least 50 passes in a Chilean Mauser 1895 short rifle in 7mm Mauser. Previous to this what I had was a fairly dark grooves and somewhat shiney lands. Well I am here to say that I don't have dark grooves anymore and very shiney lands. I'm also going to try the patch trick again but with JB Bore Bright. This should help polish up both the grooves and lands even more. Don't forget your krag was built in the heyday of cupro nickle bullets and corrosively primes ammo. Butch's Bore cleaner was the only solvent that helped rid a 1898 Krag and a 1915 Winchester 1895 saddle ring carbine of the cupro nickle bore fouling. I actually had lumps of jacket fouling on the tops of the lands on the carbine. Started out with Hoppe's but went to the Butch's as it removes jacket fouling chemically rather than using brushes. Frank

[PBSmith]

Cooper, have you measured the nose diameter of that bullet?

[444ttd]

when i first got my krag(grandpap gave it to me), i decided to use cast boolits only. it took me 4 days to clean the steel, or so i thought. the patch came out clean, then i then bore slugged it and what i thought was clean, wasn't. there was a whole bunch of black gunk, copper spirals, black gunk, cupro nickel, black gunk and things i don't name(did i mention black gunk?). so i did some more shooter choice, sweets and gunslicks foaming bore cleaner fo two or three days till it was clean and shiny. (i did 6 or seven un-consecutive days, 8 - 10 hrs) i bore slugged it and it came out .3085". i tried some 165gr ranch dogs(.311") and h4198, rel7, varget and some other powder(i think it was imr3031?) and i fell in luv with h4198.

my advice, clean the bore!!!! next step, alox. if that don't werk, then .312" and alox. if that don't work, .313" and alox.....

i'd also try coww and a little bit tin.

[gwpercle]

Try a 50-50 mix COWW and range scrap or scrap lead .
Or straight COWW with a touch of tin (1%)
Getting the alloy harder .

If still getting leading ...try a different lube but use a soft lube.

Another thing to try is Red Dot Powder -
start load @ 11.0 grs. = 1400 fps (approx)
max load @ 13.0 grs. = 1550 fps (approx)

A friends Krag liked: Cast 200 gr. RCBS 30-200-FN , 50-50 COWW / range scrap (air cooled) , .309" sized boolits (slug your bore fit is impotant) , Lithium-Beeswax Lube and the Red Dot powder (12.8 grs.)

Good Luck !
I've always had a soft spot for the Krag Rifles .
Gary

[Rich/WIS]

At one time there were two Krag sporters in the family. One had a pristine bore and the other was mildly pitted in the grooves from chamber to muzzle. Both slugged at +/- .309. Using a harder alloy (92-6-2) both shot well. The pristine bore liked the 311291 sized .310 and gas checked. The rougher bore liked the 311284 sized .310 and gas checked. Lube was either 50/50 or XLOX 2500. Neither showed any leading. Suggest a better lube and a better alloy. None of the loads we used were hot, 1500-1600 fps, which was easy on rifles over a century old, and a lot easier on us.

[Char-Gar]

You are doing most things right, but IMHO that binary 20-1 alloy is too soft for the speeds you are pushing it. Air cooled WW or lyman No. 2 will probably get it done. I am not familiar with your lube, so will offer no comment.

[coopersdad]

I have some harder stuff on order to try.

[El Gato]

My Krag likes the Lyman 314299 sized to .313 using water quenched wheel weight alloy.

My go to powder is SW Buffalo Rifle. 21 grains of powder. Good luck with your Krag...they are a sheer pleasure to shoot.

[Bigslug]

First thought is that 20/1 is WAY too soft for the round and the speeds. It's a target bullet - no reason not to harden it up.

Try a legit gas check for your next variable.

Then try the legit gas check with a full lube groove (the 299 is not a TL design).

[a danl]

Hi all, I could use some advice with an m1898 Krag I've had for years but never fired, so decided it was about time. It has a decent bore, not super shiny but sharp rifling. I have no desire for a hunting rifle or hot loads, just paper punching targets. I've loaded large bore BPCR cartridges but never a small bore rifle with cast.

Bore slugs .308 groove, chamber cast shows a throat of .3114.

Boolits cast from 20-1 alloy in Accurate's version of 314299 drop about .313.

Gas checks are aluminum flashing, made using the checkmaker plans I found here.

Lube is White Label Lube 45-45-10, then size/seat checks in a Lee-type push through sizer, they come out about .3115. Then I lube again.

Necks expanded with an M-style mandrel, leaves about .001 neck tension. I can turn the bullet after seating, before lightly crimping. OAL is 3.12, bullet just touching the rifling but not enough to pull the bullet if I unload.

Here is the progression at 100 yds, all five-shot groups, total 30 shots, barrel to allowed to cool between groups:

2400 loads:

15 gr., 1417 fps, 2.85" group (2" with a flyer). Wow, this is promising.

15.5 gr., 1449 fps, 2.75" group (1.25" with a flyer). Even more promising.

16 gr., 1474 fps, 2.2" four shots, fifth one was 3"+ low. Hmmmm, that one felt OK....

Then some 5744 loads:

18 gr., 1540 fps, 5". Rats, try harder next group.

18.5 gr, 1580 fps, 8". What?

19 gr. 1601 fps, shouldn't there be holes?

The bore looked like a sewer pipe, could hardly make out rifling. After mining lead for an hour or so it's about back in shape. Lead seemed to be spread throughout the bore, based on roughness of the first patches.

My first thoughts are lube and alloy. Others seem to love 45-45-10 and have no issues. If I should use a harder alloy than 20-1, what should I go with? Maybe something else in my description screams out "wrong!!"?

Thanks for any advice, from those first groups I think this rifle should shoot well if I figure out how to do it.

i would try a slower burning powder

[coopersdad]

It appears the alloy was my problem. I ordered some Lyman #2 and kept all else the same: size the 314299 to .3115, tumble lube with 45-45-10. Groups are running the same, under 3", some closer to 2" (my eyes are the limiting factor here), but NO leading. Well, I did see one tiny fleck on the first patch after 30 rounds, but nothing like before.

I don't think I understand how the bore rider portion of this bullet should fit. My bore pin gauges at .300, the noses measure .304. My understanding is .301 would be best?

[samari46]

The nose portion of the bullet works best when it's fat enough to be engraved with the tops of the lands. I have an early Lyman 314299 which was originally developed for the 303 British cartridge. However I shoot this bullet in a Finnish Moisin M27 whose bore slugs out at .3115 and the bullet is sized at .3135. But the nose is engraved by the lands. Probably about .002 but does stabilize that long bullet and I get 2 to 2.5" groups at 100 yds. And yes that is when my 74 year old eyes cooperate. Frank

[Eddie1971]

Personally I would go to .312 with that and possibly powder coat.