Solve a "Flash" Problem ? .43 Spanish Lyman Mold.

[DoctorBill]

I will inform you now, in case you don't want to go all the way thru this and
find out later....I returned this Old Mouldy Mold to e-bay. Hopeless.
DocotrBill 6-6-2021
.
I have an old used 4391186 LYMAN mold that is giving me a Flash Problem....

I Lightly rubbed the inner surfaces with a fiber dish scrubber and cleaned out
the Aligning Holes with a Q-Tip - and it STILL gives me Boolits like this !

283983

Can anyone "Educate" me as to HOW to stop this problem ? Squeezed the handles hard while
pouring in the WW Alloy.

DoctorBill

[Sasquatch-1]

a picture of the mold both open and closed might help.

[ABJ]

Have you de-handled the mold block and held it up to a bright light to make sure the halves are mated. It looks to me like the nose end of the block are being held apart. I use a single edge razor blade to scrape off the face of the block, and also make sure the vent lines are not clogged as this will cause some venting in strange places. I use the corner of the same razor blade to trace the vent lines.
If not any of the above, then the alignment pins may be holding it apart, you should be able to see that when it is backlit.
Tony

[Ben]

You may reslove your problem by ladle casting and NOT putting the ladle on the sprue plate. Rather , let the alloy " free fall " from about 3/4 inch above the plate into the sprue plate hole.

Alloy ( and / or the mould itself ) that is TOO HOT will also contribute to this.

Ben

[DoctorBill]

Here is the mold taken with my new "Close-Up" lenses from ebay.

This Mold was recently purchased on ebay from an Estate Sale. No idea how old it is.
Says 439186 (941) on the side of the single cavity mold.

283987

283988

283989

Does this reveal anything ?

I cannot see ANY light getting thru from any side when backlit with a powerful
spot LED Flashlight.

DoctorBill

[Dusty Bannister]

Clean the faces of the mold blocks. It looks like someone spray painted the blocks with mold release and that is holding the blocks apart and leaving the edge of the cavity angled to allow the melt to flow freely into the remaining gap. Not sure that you are not overheating the alloy and the mold blocks. The frosty surface indicates a bit on the warm side, but sometimes it needs to be hot to get a good fill out. DO NOT USE A wire brush to clean off the surfaces as you will further wipe off the sharp edge of the mold cavity.

[ABJ]

Pics are great, and correct me if I am seeing something that isn't there. On the 2nd open mold picture it looks like in the past there may have been some rust pitting on the face. Some of the pitt's are right on the nose and I think these are acting like a vent. Just to the right of center there is one pitt that almost makes it to the factory vent line.
Now if that is the case, use Ben's and Dusty's advise, cool down the alloy a little and don't pressure cast.
Tony

[ABJ]

One more mold fix comes to mind, take a small smooth sharping stone and lightly and I mean lightly lay flat on the face and move back and forth a little. If there is a high surface the stone will brighten it up. Pay close attention to the edges of the block. Do not use sandpaper, even 600 grit is too course. The most important thing is keep the stone flat on the block all the way across. It takes very very little pressure to reveal the high spots.
By the way the vent lines look good. The only ones I see that could be a problem is on the female block near the top, but as long as the bases fill out nice I wouldn't worry about it.
Tony

[DoctorBill]

.
.
Aha ! Maybe found the problem......
I use "Franklin Armory" Mold release Spray (Very Fine Carbon Soot) which works wonderfully, BTW.
[DO NOT breath it in ! - Some forms of 'Soot' are carcinogenic - BuckyBalls and Carbon Fibers]

I wiped and sprayed - and molded a few more Boolits, with the mold - got the same Flash.

Let it cool and decided to take the Mold halves off the handle. THEN - when the light was just
right, saw the problem ! Take a gander at the two mold faces with the light just right !
The Carbon coating shows the "hi spots" on the face where they make contact...

284000

Ya, I need to "Hone The High Areas" down, methinks....

I'd like to remove the pins though. Is THAT difficult or dangerous ?

I'm not sure I have a decent "Stone" ! How about Car Polish on a good flat plate ?
I have a sheet of 1500 grit Wet/Dry emery paper.....

DoctorBill

[shooter bob]

Last photo I see lead stuck to the mold both half’s. Look at the one on the right 2nd vent line down is a big chunk.the left has a piece at the 2nd vent line and around the boolit edge. That’s what it looks like from the photo. Good luck. Bob

[shooter bob]

Sorry 1st vent line

[Dusty Bannister]

DO NOT FILE ON ANYTHING until you have used a good solvent to dissolve the sludge you are spraying in and on the mold. Then clean out the cavities with a soft bristle tooth brush and get it to almost clean metal.

Then you will be able to preheat the mold and try casting at about 725 degrees and see if there is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

[imashooter2]

The cavity edges don’t look sharp to me at all. The close up of the pin side looks particularly bad.

[GONRA]

GONRA sez - back in the Olde Days - we didn't have new fangled "MOULD SPRAY's"
and all these wierd issues.....

[DoctorBill]

"GONRA sez - back in the Olde Days - we didn't have new fangled "MOULD SPRAY's" and all these wierd issues....."
"Mould" ? ! You from the Old Country ? Merry Old England ?
- You mean like automobiles, Smokeless Powder, Copper jacketed Bullets, and Medicine ?
...Penicillin has kept my old butt alive more times than I can count ! I'd be Looong time dead !
.
Anyway.
I scraped the spots you indicated with the ol' fingernail (soft enough?) tool...
then...
I took a toothbrush and Dawn Detergent to it. Scrubbed the Devil out of it. Dried it off
on the heater register. Let you know what happens soon.

After the two halves dried, they look EXACTLY like the previous picture (#9 Post) !
Exactly ! The mold actually feels like it is Teflon Coated ! I could soak it in Citrus-Stripper !
THAT would cut thru ANYTHING.....it's like Orange Mayonnaise ! THICK ! It's in it......now.

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Moving the alignment pins isn't all that hard if it does prove necessary, with big enough hammer and a solid block to set the mold on (think anvil or similar).

I think once you get the mold clean, your biggest problem will be keeping the small blocks from getting too hot if you cast rapidly. My 439186 is a later version made on the larger double cavity blocks, I haven't noticed any problems with it; but I did have a few overheating issues with the two cavity Rapine mold I have for the .43 Spanish.

Robert

[bruce381]

Pics are great, and correct me if I am seeing something that isn't there. On the 2nd open mold picture it looks like in the past there may have been some rust pitting on the face. Some of the pitt's are right on the nose and I think these are acting like a vent. Just to the right of center there is one pitt that almost makes it to the factory vent line.
Now if that is the case, use Ben's and Dusty's advise, cool down the alloy a little and don't pressure cast.
Tony

looks like thats it the face is NOT "air" tight lead is leaking into the voids on the face.

Mold has been rusted not good.

I have pressed back the alignement pins in the past and did figure 8's on a 2-300 grit sandpaper to clean up the face BUT you have to go slow and not over do it

[Bent Ramrod]

You might also check the pin locating holes for peening around the edges. It doesn’t take much effort to slam a mould shut and bang the hardened pins against the hole edges of the other block.

Usually the holes are some standard size drill diameter. The last one I had to do was 3/16”. Put the drill in a pin vise or a tailstock lathe chuck, slide it into the locating hole from the outside of the block and twist it gently, by hand, as the bit comes out the hole on the inside. If peening is there, the drill will turn freely until the bit comes past the hole edge, and then it will snag. Hold it at that point and twist the chuck by hand until it turns like it did through the rest of the locating hole.

Pinch the blocks together by hand and look for daylight between them. See if they are hard to pull apart without the handles. If so, come in with the drill from the cavity side (careful!) and ream the holes as before.

In extreme cases, I’ve used a fine oval Swiss file around the edge of the hole. You want the locating pins to go in smoothly, bottom out, pull out without sticking and not allow the blocks to move laterally when you press them back and forth.

If that happens, you need a pin punch and a bench block to judiciously tap the pins out a little further, or in, if the blocks show a gap.

Getting a bunged-up mould set up right again can be an exasperating exercise sometimes. But nowheres near as exasperating as casting “Angel” boolits.

[DoctorBill]

.
.
Something interesting happened.
The Mold Blocks have been
1. Scrubbed with Dawn Detergent in hot water.
2. Been in CitriStrip two hours.
3. Washed Stripper off in Very Hot Tap Water and then scrubbed with brush.
4. Placed in 91% Rubbing (Isopropanol) Alcohol for about 30 minutes.

Pulled them out of the Alcohol and wiped with Kleenex. GOT SOME DARK RESIDUE
from inside the bullet cavity !

You need to soak these molds in DIFFERENT solvents ! Just one doesn't cut thru the
various BAKED ON organic layers.

Squeezed the halves together (hand held) and could not see any light getting thru from any angle.

I put them back in the Rubbing Alcohol to set a while.

Note - I do know from some Machining Studies that Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) will cut thru and
dissolve Oxide off of Steel without attacking the Steel itself. Steel (Iron) is not a very
active metal. I'm talking maybe a hour or so. I COULD experiment on the back side
of the mold with a Q-Tip dipped in HCl...
....if it works, I could swab those high areas to cut back on the oxide just in those areas....

Be back later.....back !
Wow! After all that cleaning and soaking, look what I'm getting off of this mold just
soaking in Alcohol !
284009
Think I'm going to be here a while at this ! I have some Carb Cleaner and Brake Cleaner, also.....

I got this from an Estate Sale. Lord knows what the departed owner did with it !

DoctorBill

[shooter bob]

I don’t know if it’s the lighting but the inside of the molds appears to have been blasted either sand or bead ? I know during the Obama years folks on eBay were messing up lots of good molds due to blasting

[DoctorBill]

.
.
I was wondering, myself, why this mold is so pitted. Could it be ?
But the back side isn't pitted.
If I were a 'Sniper' or 'Tack Driver', I would be bugged, but all I want is
some reasonable Cast Bullets to shoot my new toy with...

These will be fired with 12 grains of Trail Boss to Fireform them.
Then I will work up to a bigger load....I shoot my 12.7mmx44R Remington
Rolling Block with 15 grains of Trail Boss. That's sufficient to kill them
waskuwie Paper Wabbits with out at the range. I am not a masochist for
shoulder whacks from Rifles - I'm 78 and a woosie.

DoctorBill

[Dusty Bannister]

Shooter Bob, I think the dimpled finish in the cavities is just the spray on mold release that builds up. Maybe not quite dry when the mold was placed back in service. Until the mold is cleaned from that stuff, you will have no idea what the cavity really looks like. Just do not wire brush or blast the mold as that will ruin it. While the mold release does go on in layers, cleaning only requires you find the correct solvent to cut the baked on material. Water based cleaners are of questionable value in this case. Just be patient and use the alcohol as a solvent and it will loosen and you can brush away the baked on deposit.

[DoctorBill]

.
.
...."Find the Correct Solvent".... - THAT is the trick !

I found an old partial Spray Can of Brake Cleaner in the Garage.
Barely works, but I sprayed all of it into a glass bottle and put the
Mold Halves in that for the night. Alcohol was working, but extremely slowly.

Wish I had some Methylene Chloride - THAT is what old Paint Strippers
were made with before Uncle Sam banned it. Cut thru ANYTHING - Quickly.
Nasty stuff, though.

18 hours later - Brake Cleaner did absolutely NOTHING ! Back to 91% Alcohol !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
.
Next Day - the Brake Cleaner Solvent seemed to do nothing, so I dried the Mold sides
and put them back into the 91% "Rubbing" Alcohol [Isopropanol]. (Cheap, readily available
Solvent, too)

After just an hour soaking, I took them out and rubbed the faces and cavity with a Q-Tip.
Got a LOT more brown residue off - rubbed HARD and off it came... ! I'm amazed.

284021 - Double Click on the Image !

I am so impatient to put it back together to see what it casts....patience is not my thing !

So - the 91% Isopropanol is working - slowly, but it works. FYI for yous guys.

Edited in later: Tried an hour soak in "409". Thought it might cut thru the baked on
coating. NOTHING. Back into the Alcohol.
This baked on coating is waterproof ! It acts like fresh Bluing does. Waterproof.
Probably an Iron Oxide layer. Who says an Oxide Layer has to be uniform ?!

Just for the grins of it - here is the mold face before I started trying to "Clean" it:
284027 ...click on the image - 2x
I will compare this to same face after I 'clean' it.....I hope !

Could that mold have REALLY been sand blasted ? ! Why would anyone DO that ?!

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Strange issues posting replies tonight.
Robert

[Mk42gunner]

I don't know what was done to the poor abused mold, but it kind of looks like the cavity itself is fairly smooth under all the crap.

Don't give up yet.

Maybe email Midway about a suitable solvent for their version of mold release???

Robert

[imashooter2]

The more pictures you post, the more clear it becomes that the edges of the cavities have been rounded over. Clean is not your fin problem. The fin problem is that the iron of the mold blocks at the parting line is gone and lead is naturally filling the space where it used to be.

[GregLaROCHE]

You might try some bore cleaners on it, if what you’ve tried so far isn’t getting it clean.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The mold has obviously seen better times. The edges of the cavity are no longer sharp, and the vent lines seem too deep to avoid whiskers with any alloy except pure lead
slowly poured from a ladle. What does the boolits look like after sizing? If they are uniform and round those whiskers won't matter one bit.

[DoctorBill]

.
.
I do not have a Sizing Die for this bullet.
I scrape off any flash and rub the bullet on a fiber Dish Pan cleaning pad.

Still soaking the Mold in Alcohol. Going to try it again soon to see if I have
improved it at all.

I may try making a Sizing Die, on my lathe, out of 7/8ths Threaded Rod.

DoctorBill

[country gent]

Try easy off oven cleaner, we used it in the shop fr baked on deposits. Its meant to cut burnt and baked on deposits. It may do the job.

Look at the corners of the cavities with some magnification if the are rounded you may not get rid of the flash with out some fancy work.

[Dusty Bannister]

If the alcohol is working (even if working slowly) why keep messing around with other water based solvents. I would be very careful using an oven cleaner on a steel mold.

The appearance of the rounded edge could be surface tension of the sprayed on material tending to build up in the middle of the flat surface as it dries, or perhaps the sludge is wearing off at the edges faster than in the middle of the flat surface. As to the deep vent lines, it is also possible that as the thickness of the mold release increased, the vent lines were cleared down to the original depth.

Get it clean before doing anything to the original surface and see if it needs "fixing". You might fix it beyond use. It likely took years of use to get to this point, why would anyone expect instant clean up now? Take your time.

[Tar Heel]

By now you realize that this mold, which had been coated with some coating to enhance its appearance for a sale, is only going to throw bullets that are perhaps usable but not beautiful. Having purchased molds like this from pawn shops and the like, I know that a little elbow grease and solvent will be required to get back to the original metal of the mold. I do use minor abrasive material sometimes to recover the mold and in a few cases, have caused more problems than were originally present. So be it. On a $10 pawn shop mold - I am not too worried about damaging it. As long as I can get usable bullets, which may require a fingernail to remove flashing, I am a happy camper.

It's not a new mold and you have given restoration a healthy try. Let the old guy give you what it can at this point and be happy with the purchase of a fine old mold still trying to appease its owner. Shame on the original nimrod who let it rust, and shame on the person who coated it with whatever they coated it with to make it more eye appealing on fleabay.

Some molds are just too far gone to be recovered and there is no amount of CPR which will bring them back. I paint them with spray paint and decorate the shop.

[DoctorBill]

.
.
Here is what this "Old Mouldy Mold" is throwing after all my efforts.

284062 Double click to see photo

I just contacted the Vendor (dfw_test_equipment) who sold me this "Bob Hayley" Estate Sale mold
and requested a return and refund. e-bay has a "return" policy to help buyers. We'll see how THAT
works out.....lol

Anyway - I give up. For $118.91 - this was a "bust". I'll wait until I can buy a new mold.

Postscript: The vendor WILL take the mold back ! Here is his reply:

From: dfw_test_equipment (13,791YellowShooting Star)
I apologize, it was not my intent to waste your time or my money shipping a broken tool. Bob Hayley
seemed to be very good at marking issues and in the 200+ molds I've sold there has
been one with a sprue plate that would not tighten and now this. Please go through the
eBay return system and they will have me issue a return label so there is no cost to you.
Sorry for the trouble,
Jim

Decided - I'm returning the mold !

I rolled a Casting between Flat Metal Plates and rubbed the Flash areas to get this (.439 dia),
but don't want to go thru THAT for EACH bullet !
284065

BTW - Here is what they are 'supposed' to look like:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010236363

DoctorBill

another postscript: S&SFirearms.com apparently has this mold and I ordered it
(no "Out of Stock" appeared on the order Item) - I'll believe it when I get the Mold !
I will keep everyone posted on THIS order......

[Mk42gunner]

I see your point, for ~$120 I would expect something to work right from the start.

As I alluded to earlier, some years ago Lyman started making larger caliber single cavity molds on the big double cavity mold blocks. Your current handle (assuming they didn't go back with the mold) may or may not work with the new style block.

Robert

[0verkill]

Did S&S actually have them in stock?

[DoctorBill]

Did S&S actually have them in stock?

NO THEY DID NOT (DO NOT) HAVE IT IN STOCK !

They do NOT show ANY molds "Out of stock" and this was my second attempt to order it.
I just now looked (6-9-2021 7:30 PM PST)...still there - as if they have it.
I do not understand why their Web Site lures people to order things they do not have......
Not Kosher, as far as I am concerned ! But that's just me.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
. I am making a "D-Bit" out of 7/16" Drill Rod. I started shaping it, but not happy
with the shape. I want to make something like the Buffalo Arms "Money" bullet
shown below with a "Screen Shot" from their web site.

284241 - or maybe this! 284244
Of course Straight Sided for Paper Patching - without Lube Rings.
I will Paper Patch out to .439"... I am crazy - I make bullets that are aesthetically pleasing !
I have no idea which shape is aerodynamically best - not sure ANYONE does.

Here is where I am right now. I believe it is close to a Postell shape, no ?
Will work on the shape on the lathe. Want to make
an Aluminum "Fall Out" Mold. I know how to do that.
284243

Over and out.

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

~Twenty years ago or so, when I got my first (and only so far) .43 Spanish, I though about just paper patching some of the heavier .44 Magnum boolits up to use in it. I never did any, but I think it would work.

Of course back then most molds were in stock everywhere. They were even affordable on E bay, believe it or not.

Robert

[John Boy]

Buy a 1000/6000 grit whetstone … oil the stone and rub each mold cavity LIGHTLY to eliminate the pock holes. When cleaned up, cast with no lube of any kind except the mold pins will need to be always lubed with paraffin
Then clean out the vent lines with a single edge razor blade

https://www.amazon.com/Sharpening-Double-Sided-Whetstone-Bright-Living/dp/B0765TV2F9/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzYGGBhCTARIsAHdMTQxSCShjsU4wWlfsQ7zM PnsHXln3svNC1aX_PYpOasHIeaALzROlfOQaApGWEALw_wcB&hvadid=409940714355&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9003982&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4917359448388140074&hvtargid=kwd-98707712&hydadcr=24658_11410762&keywords=sharpening+stones&qid=1623295062&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQk5NTVlIWUpVUk5PJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzY0NTYxT0VLSUlTT0c5VkJUJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAzOTEzMThYUDhaUU84T1RGUUkmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

When you clean up the cavities, hold the closed mold up to a bright light and there should be no light shining in between the 2 halves

[DoctorBill]

Buy a fine grit whetstone … oil the stone and rub each mold cavity to eliminate the pock holes. When cleaned up, cast with no lube of any kind except the mold pins will need to be always lubed with paraffin
https://www.amazon.com/Sharpening-Double-Sided-Whetstone-Bright-Living/dp/B0765TV2F9/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzYGGBhCTARIsAHdMTQxSCShjsU4wWlfsQ7zM PnsHXln3svNC1aX_PYpOasHIeaALzROlfOQaApGWEALw_wcB&hvadid=409940714355&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9003982&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4917359448388140074&hvtargid=kwd-98707712&hydadcr=24658_11410762&keywords=sharpening+stones&qid=1623295062&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQk5NTVlIWUpVUk5PJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzY0NTYxT0VLSUlTT0c5VkJUJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAzOTEzMThYUDhaUU84T1RGUUkmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

That Mould is History - it is Gone ! Sent it back.....I paid more for it than the current
Lyman Price is for their backordered mold.

I do not understand WHY everything is so screwed up ! You'd think we had the Bubonic Plague !
What would happen if EBOLA got loose !?
The current 'political party' sure used CoVid to screw America up ! Should we vote for them AGAIN ?

DoctorBill

[imashooter2]

Buy a 1000/6000 grit whetstone … oil the stone and rub each mold cavity LIGHTLY to eliminate the pock holes. When cleaned up, cast with no lube of any kind except the mold pins will need to be always lubed with paraffin
https://www.amazon.com/Sharpening-Double-Sided-Whetstone-Bright-Living/dp/B0765TV2F9/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzYGGBhCTARIsAHdMTQxSCShjsU4wWlfsQ7zM PnsHXln3svNC1aX_PYpOasHIeaALzROlfOQaApGWEALw_wcB&hvadid=409940714355&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9003982&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4917359448388140074&hvtargid=kwd-98707712&hydadcr=24658_11410762&keywords=sharpening+stones&qid=1623295062&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQk5NTVlIWUpVUk5PJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzY0NTYxT0VLSUlTT0c5VkJUJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAzOTEzMThYUDhaUU84T1RGUUkmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

When you clean up the cavities, hold the closed mold up to a bright light and there should be no light shining in between the 2 halves

The OP wisely got his $120 back on that chunk of scrap iron.

[imashooter2]

That Mould is History - it is Gone ! Sent it back.....I paid more for it than the current
Lyman Price is for their backordered mold.

I do not understand WHY everything is so screwed up ! You'd think we had the Bubonic Plague !
What would happen if EBOLA got loose !?
The current 'political party' sure used CoVid to screw America up ! Should we vote for them AGAIN ?

DoctorBill

We!?!? You got a mouse in your pocket? :kidding: