Shaving lead with RCBS 38/357 dies

[Agent1187]

With great fortune, I just picked up a new side gate Henry Big Boy 357. Now it's time to feed it!

The problem I've encountered is that I'm shaving lead during the seating process with a new RCBS die set. What seems to be happening is that the seating die removes all my flaring right as it enters the die. What starts as a very comfortable 0.390" brass OD gets taken down to 0.381" the moment it enters the die and shaves lead even when seating and crimping in two separate steps.

I've found that if I deburr the inside of the case mouth before seating, I get a lot less shaving. However it'll still shave a side if I wasn't centered very well.

I've got to think it shouldn't be this touchy to load these things! Any ideas what I'm missing or probably doing wrong?

Measurements are with calipers, so +/- a little. And the current boolits in use are Lee 140 gr SWC luberesized to 0.357, and Lee 200gr FN power coated and also sized to 0.357.

Thanks for any help!

[Conditor22]

What starts as a very comfortable 0.390" brass OD gets taken down to 0.381" the moment it enters the die

you're trying to size >.381 for a .357? I size all of mine to .358

Apologies, I missed the OD part :groner:[smilie=b:

I know nothing about the brass OD requirement for .357 brass for .358 boolits. I just use the lee powder through die and it works.

Might give RCBS a call and ask them. They may even send you a new die for free.

[zarrinvz24]

He is talking about the outside of the case diameter, not the boolit.

[Sam Sackett]

You might want to check the amount of flare you're getting. It sounds like there isn't enough. You didn't say what brand of dies you are using.

The first die is sizing the case OD down to around .380". The second die should expand the mouth of the case and slightly flare it to accept the cast bullet without shaving off any lead. The third die seats the bullet and squeezes the flare back in to hold the bullet in place. You can also crimp with the third die, or use a separate crimp die to install the final crimp.

Hope this helps.
Sam Sackett

[1hole]

Under flared case mouths and too thick case mouths coupled with too fat bullets cause lead shaving. And, yes, proper mouth belling always helps.

If your new RCBS seater is sizing your case mouths down that much when they enter it follows that the die's inside diameter must be too small.

[shooter bob]

I believe the die is in too far and starting a crimp on the mouth before bullet is seated?

[Mk42gunner]

Shooter Bob wins the prize.

Readjust your dies higher in the press.

As an alternative, you can simply seat in one step; then either readjust for crimping or get a Redding Profile crimp die that crimps only.

A properly adjusted seater/crimper should work for one step seating and crimping though.

Robert

[shooter bob]

Hopefully I won some primers��

[Conditor22]

Re-read the RCBS die setup instructions.
I believe they say something like start the die into the press, raise the ram, lower the die until it touches. Back off the die 1 turn.
Back off the seating stem, set boolit in the case, and raise the ram adjusting the seating stem to the desired depth. (shouldn't be shaving lead since the flare isn't touching the die yet)

IF you can't get the flared case to start in the seating die without touching then that's a different story.

[Char-Gar]

My best guess if you are trying to seat and crimp in one operation.

[Baltimoreed]

I seat and crimp .45 Colt in one step. The lead bullet is seated at the correct depth when the case hits the crimp ring? part of the die. Is there a difference other than bullet diameter between reloading the two?

[high standard 40]

I have an RCBS 44 Mag die set that has this very same problem. And, yes, I know how to properly adjust dies. A case mouth that is flared enough to properly accept a cast bullet will have the flare almost completely removed as soon as the case mouth enters the "seat and crimp die". I have a second set of RCBS 44 Mag dies that do not exhibit this issue. I sent an email to RCBS about this problem die and never received an answer. I have handgun die sets for six different cartridges, Lee, Hornady, Redding, and RCBS. That one 44 mag die is the only one I have problems with. So my only advice to the OP is to call RCBS because I believe you may have the same problem as me, a defective die.

[Mk42gunner]

Hopefully I won some primers��
Well, I'll donate a few used ones....

[Baltimoreed]

Have not experienced that issue. Sounds like a bad die or a 3 die set for jacketed bullets only. Op maybe needs a 4 die set so he can seat and then crimp on 2 dies. I would call RCBS tomorrow and talk to their cs.

[NEKVT]

My RCBS 357 seating die from 1975 seats and crimps cast bullets (up to .359 tried) in one step with no issues. A Lyman 38 Special seating die will not so it is set up to crimp only with seating done in the RCBS die. The ID at bottom of both dies measures .380 so there must be an issue with the overall bullet/case diameter entering the die.

[Agent1187]

I have an RCBS 44 Mag die set that has this very same problem. And, yes, I know how to properly adjust dies. A case mouth that is flared enough to properly accept a cast bullet will have the flare almost completely removed as soon as the case mouth enters the "seat and crimp die". I have a second set of RCBS 44 Mag dies that do not exhibit this issue. I sent an email to RCBS about this problem die and never received an answer. I have handgun die sets for six different cartridges, Lee, Hornady, Redding, and RCBS. That one 44 mag die is the only one I have problems with. So my only advice to the OP is to call RCBS because I believe you may have the same problem as me, a defective die.Thanks for all the discussion so far everybody!

So far, I feel I'm in the same boat as high standard 40, in that I feel pretty confident in setting up dies, but this one is problematic for some reason.

I'm certainly not above starting from scratch, so here's what I've got currently setup:
My flare allows 0.05" of boolit to enter the case with no resistance. When seating, the edge of the flare entering the die is the biggest moment of resistence.
With the seating die 6.5 turns above the shell plate, and the seating stem 2 turns from all the way in, the attached picture is my result - just a tiny bit of shaved lead. That's a 38 spl case and the 140 gr SWC at 1.40" OAL.

I'd certainly count that as acceptable, but it's quite the adjustment to hit the crimp ring, and the exact same setup with a 0.359 sized boolit gives me a perfect circle of shaved lead.

I'll try to get a hold of RCBS in the next couple days, but until then I'm all ears for thing to try!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210603/0ca3c71aec56b773b71b0e18d021763f.jpg

[243winxb]

Open the ID of the seat die with a wood dowel & emery paper. Dont remove the crimp area.

Had same problem with RCBS 45 acp seat die.

[onelight]

It may be die problem but.
If your bullets starts crooked it will add to shaving .
If you are seating and roll crimping in one die on a cast bullet with no crimp groove you are much more likely to shave the bullet.
Chamfering helps as does enough case mouth flare to allow a slightly crooked bullet space to get straitened by the top punch , die and case before the case mouth is being closed on the bullet.

[mdi]

There is no mystery or magic with reloading. Brass prep is plain old "Metal Working 101". It is very difficult to shove a lead slug into a brass tube that is .003" smaller ID than the slug's OD. So some sort of "entry way" is needed and most reloaders use a flare. For some reason the case mouth is sharp/square and the softer metal is shaved off when stuffed into the tube. Inspect a case that has been sized. The case mouth should be flat/square with no entry way. Flare the case whichever method you choose, Universal flaring die. stock flaring die, M die or tapered punch. The mouth should now have a tapered entry way. Run the case into the seating die, no bullet and reinspect the case mouth. Mouth should be the same as before; a tapered entry way. This will help locate when/where the problem originates...

Yep, it is that simple...

[ReloaderFred]

This isn't as uncommon as some may believe. My wife and I go through about 8,000 to 10,000 rounds of .38 Special ammunition per year for SASS Matches with cast bullets for revolvers and Marlin rifles, so I load a lot of it. I've got over a half dozen .38 Special seating/crimping dies, and all but one will remove the bell imparted by my Lyman M die as it enters the seating die. For that operation, I have one older CH .38/.357 Seating die that has a large enough interior diameter (ID) to accept the belled case without removing the flare, so that's what I use for that operation. My RCBS, Lyman, Hornady and Lee dies all remove the flare. For the crimp station, I use a Lyman Crimp Die, with the seating stem removed. I also bell the case mouth enough to ensure lead won't be shaved and the bullet will stand in the case mouth by itself. I'm not worried about case life, since I've got about 20,000 once fired .38 Special brass in reserve, so I bell the heck out of it. I also have a second older set of CH .38/.357 dies, but that seat/crimp die also removes the bell, so it depends on the individual die, not the brand of the die.

You can enlarge the ID of the seating die, but if it's case hardened, it's going to take some work to accomplish. You might call RCBS Customer Service and see if they will replace the die. With the volume of emails they get, I wouldn't rely on that method myself. Talking to a real person is more likely to get the result you need.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Char-Gar]

NOTES ON SEAT AND CRIMP IN ONE STEP VS. SEAT AND CRIMP IN TWO STEPS.

As the bullets is seated and moved the last smidge down to crimp, it will shave some lead on a smooth sided bullet. However, if there is a crimp groove of any size, the crimp won't shave metal from the smooth side of the bullet, but turn into the crimp groove. So comparisons of a smooth sided autopistol bullet and a revolver bullet with a crimp groove are not valid.

[oldhenry]

I had the identical problem with a Redding .38 spec./.357 seating die. That set had a separate crimp die & was designed for a progressive press. I returned it to Redding (twice) & they finally got it corrected. I got the impression that they thought I was crazy.

[oley55]

Shooter Bob wins the prize.

Readjust your dies higher in the press.

As an alternative, you can simply seat in one step; then either readjust for crimping or get a Redding Profile crimp die that crimps only.

A properly adjusted seater/crimper should work for one step seating and crimping though.

Robert

^^^I'm with these guys.

On how to setup the RCBS seating die (seating only with separate crimp) for cast boolits, I ignore the setup instructions. I put a flared case in the holder and lift the ram to full up and then I screw the seating die in until I feel the die rubbing on the case's flare, give it an additional 1/8 turn and then lock it down. Only then do I start fiddling with the seating stem's adjustment. I would only adjust the die deeper if I am unable to get enough seating stem adjustment. If that doesn't work then start looking at the many other possible causes.