Anyone hunted with a minie?

[brewer12345]

I bought a Zoli Zouave from a member over the winter and finally shot it this weekend. Round ball loads were accurate enough to do the needful with deer at the sort of range I shoot them. However the rifle came with some minies, which appear to be 577611s. I was trying 50 and 60 grains of powder with the few I shot, but I read now that this is a heavy skirted minie intended for heavier hunting charges, so I need to up it and see what kind of accuracy I can get. The ease of loading makes me wonder about using minies for hunting, especially for a follow up shot if necessary. Anyone hunted deer with minies? Considering we are talking about 58 caliber, I suspect it doesn't really matter what you hit the deer with.

[stubshaft]

I use an old RCBS Hodgdon 576-412 mold to cast for my JP Murray Artillery Carbine. It prints at 1" to 1.5" at 50 yards when sized to .576 and pushed ahead of 65.0 grains Dupont 2F. I have not shot a deer with it but I can tell you that it is an absolute hog HAMMER! I have never put a bullet over my chrono and truth be told I give accuracy the nod, rather than velocity. I have shot a number of hogs with this load/bullet at ranges from 35 yds. to 80 yds. and have never recovered a bullet, even from those north/south shots. The hogs weighed in between 95 lbs. and 300 lbs. on the hoof.

I have tried that same 575611 mold and didn't care too much for it. It was designed for the Navy Arms Hawken Hunter, which Val Forgett took to Africa with him to hunt the big five. IIRC - he was using 110 grains plus of powder behind it (60 grains being the standard load during the Civil War).

You can try the NSSA website as that is where I got mine from.

[bedbugbilly]

The three groove rifling was made for mine balls as it's a military rifled musket . . . and yes they shoot arty well. But patched round ball can shoot well if a person plays with getting a load worked up - and as you know, both will take a deer just fine. The determining factor will be your state's game laws and what rgey allow as states vary on what they will permit. I have been shooting my Zouave for over 55 years - a great rifle!

[bimus]

This is the load that works for me 500gr mine with 90gr black powder lubed with Crisco or bore butter wrapped with Press and seal Glad wrap .
This gave the best group in my Thompson Center 58 Cal big bore.

[indian joe]

The three groove rifling was made for mine balls as it's a military rifled musket . . . and yes they shoot arty well. But patched round ball can shoot well if a person plays with getting a load worked up - and as you know, both will take a deer just fine. The determining factor will be your state's game laws and what rgey allow as states vary on what they will permit. I have been shooting my Zouave for over 55 years - a great rifle!

Billy
What minie mold do you use? We have a Zoli mississippi rifle (78 twist) I gave up on minies in it but it is a nice roundball shooter . There is a secret/trick to minies in these slow twist guns that I have not figured out - most blokes fail with em but then some get good targets - we even sold a nice three band Enfield because of it and replaced with 48 twist two bander - that gun does well with minies and will still shoot round ball ok if you want. So I wouldnt mind if you let me in on the secret. :-)

[indian joe]

I bought a Zoli Zouave from a member over the winter and finally shot it this weekend. Round ball loads were accurate enough to do the needful with deer at the sort of range I shoot them. However the rifle came with some minies, which appear to be 577611s. I was trying 50 and 60 grains of powder with the few I shot, but I read now that this is a heavy skirted minie intended for heavier hunting charges, so I need to up it and see what kind of accuracy I can get. The ease of loading makes me wonder about using minies for hunting, especially for a follow up shot if necessary. Anyone hunted deer with minies? Considering we are talking about 58 caliber, I suspect it doesn't really matter what you hit the deer with.

A mate of mine shot a big old buck roo (a bit over 200lb) with his 58 two band and a minie, he is a good shot and he put it right where its sposed to go - roo collapsed in his tracks. (they not super tough - a lot like a deer from what I see - complete with their affinity for causing wrecks at night on the highway)

[Hellgate]

I've killed two deer and one elk with 58 cal Minies. The 577611 and the 575213-OS (Old Style) both have thick skirts. The two deer were hit with the 575213-OS over 90grs FFFg in my Zoli Zouave. I sight my rifles in to hit 5" high at 50 yards so they will be right on at 100. One deer was bedded and when hit stood up turned around and fell over. The second one (big mulie doe) was facing me at a slight angle. The minie went in one shoulder and exited the opposite ham i.e. the ball went diagonally through the full body length. She ran 50 yds and piled up. I hardly ruined 2 oz of meat. The elk was at 50 yds broadside and when hit piled up. It was a lucky shot and hit 5" above where I aimed. Fortunately the ball (577611 over 90 grs FFg) went through both shoulder blades, clipped the spine and aorta before sailing off into the woods like the other two did with the deer. The rifle was an Enfield (Euroarms) Musketoon. The big old minies with the thick skirts do not ruin meat and so far, all pass through the animal. When working up a heavy hunting load I put a sand bag on my shoulder to prevent a flinch from developing when at the bench.

[carbine]

INDIAN JOE
No secret. The Zoli barrels are excellent. Lack of accuracy could be caused by an undersized Minie. Have you had the bore slugged or mic'ed? We usually go 1 thousanths under bore size so we can shoot 15-20 shots at the Clayboard. Another culprit can be lube. Is the bullet getting enough? Which minie are you using, Feel free to PM me

[Lead pot]

I use a two ring in my .58 Hawken shoots well.
It's best to keep the load of 1F at 90 grains so you don't blow the skirt out.
Also I fill the cavity with lard this keeps the fouling soft for all the shooting you want to do.

[brewer12345]

I was using 575611 that came with the rifle. Sounds a lot like I should have tried a much higher powder charge, but had no idea this design was really for heavy hunting loads. I found a vendor online that had the 575611 and the 405 grain "Blue and Gray" target minie molds in stock, so I ordered them to play with.

As for sizning, the minies taht came with the rifle go into an already fired barrel with a firm push and do not require much effort to push down the bore, so I assumed they are properly sized. What is the best way to check bore diameter? Can I get away with just using my reloading calipers, or do I need something else to get an accurate measurement? With the molds I ordered I assume I will need to size the minies after casting. Since I am dealing with some shoulder issues I will probably start with the 405 grain target minie which I believe will want a much lighter charge than the heavy hunting design of 575611 at 530 grains.

[Eddie Southgate]

Have killed a few deer with my Zoli over the last 50 years with the Lyman 575213 in the standard mold as well as the 575213 OS . Both work just fine with 60-70 grains of FFG . Never lost a deer shot with that load with these bullets . With a proper hit most don't run and those that do don't go far . Have no experience with the 611 mold . Round balls are noted as excellent killers and if your musket shoots them well , and it should , I would not hesitate to use them with the same powder charge .

As far as sizing minies , my die only straightens the skirt and does not change the size . I tried sizing them just slightly years ago and found that they shot way more accurately un sized .

[Lead pot]

If that mini is for a .58 and it slides down the bore it will seal on ignition. I would not worry about running them through a sizing die.

Where I live I can only use a shotgun, muzzle loader or a hand gun for Deer. I took one buck that field dressed 238 lbs and he was standing a little over 100 yards and I hit him high in the shoulder but it cut his spine passing through both shoulder blades and it knocked him sideways and he never moved. The .58 caliber is a great caliber using a round ball or mini with it's 72 ROT.

[indian joe]

If that mini is for a .58 and it slides down the bore it will seal on ignition. I would not worry about running them through a sizing die.

Where I live I can only use a shotgun, muzzle loader or a hand gun for Deer. I took one buck that field dressed 238 lbs and he was standing a little over 100 yards and I hit him high in the shoulder but it cut his spine passing through both shoulder blades and it knocked him sideways and he never moved. The .58 caliber is a great caliber using a round ball or mini with it's 72 ROT.

LP ---- that twist is where I come unstuck - great for roundball, ideal - we have a 48 twist Euroarms Enfield shoots minies great (traditional style minie too)
The slow twist three band Enfield - no dice with minies - sold it out of frustration - well soon as I figured what the twist was
Had another mate bought a spotless Parker Hale 3 band couldnt get it to shoot minies - I told him try roundball - off to the races he went
Same same with the Zoli it throws minies all over the place - deadly with roundball - we have the 575-460 LEE minie for that - also tried the heavier traditional style from a HT Bugg mold (standard fare for the 48 twist Euroarms)
This gets lots of argument but the slow twist is not the best for elongated projectiles - nobody challenges that when you say it about a cartridge gun everyone agrees and theres a ton of science to back it up - but the couple of times I have said the same thing about these military capguns blokes jump all over me - why is it any different?

I came to the conclusion ages ago that the genius behind this, was the same one that put the men in an open field with a red coat on, with a white diagonal aiming cross on the front so the enemy could get a good bead on his soldiers vitals. [smilie=b:

[indian joe]

INDIAN JOE
No secret. The Zoli barrels are excellent. Lack of accuracy could be caused by an undersized Minie. Have you had the bore slugged or mic'ed? We usually go 1 thousanths under bore size so we can shoot 15-20 shots at the Clayboard. Another culprit can be lube. Is the bullet getting enough? Which minie are you using, Feel free to PM me

LEE 575-460 - measures .5755 - .576 - same lube we use in the Enfield - beeswax and neatsfoot - I proly quit too easy on this one - I have shot a lot of roundball for a long time - and find ball guns easy to get sorted -
Nothing wrong with the Zoli barrel its as good a roundball shooter as any - better than some. The thing wrong is the rate of twist ...................its a ball gun twist!!

[indian joe]

INDIAN JOE
No secret. The Zoli barrels are excellent. Lack of accuracy could be caused by an undersized Minie. Have you had the bore slugged or mic'ed? We usually go 1 thousanths under bore size so we can shoot 15-20 shots at the Clayboard. Another culprit can be lube. Is the bullet getting enough? Which minie are you using, Feel free to PM me

More powder needed ????????

[Ithaca Gunner]

The three groove 1:72 twist was standard in U.S. Springfield rifles and riflemuskets, M1855-M1864 and 1:78 twist standard in British P53 Enfields. Either shot very well. Most common for original Remington ''Zouave'' rifles was seven groove 1:60 twist with some being three groove, and reportedly a few with five groove rifling. These also shot well or possibly better than the longer Springfields. The ''Zoli-Zooies'' will shoot well with a ''Minnie'' with between 40-70gr. of powder. It wouldn't surprise me if around 55gr. FFFg. would prove very accurate with a 400-500gr. bullet. 55gr. FFFg. and a Lyman 575213OS kills like a .30/06 under 50yds. in any .58 or .577 I own, no matter the twist or grooves.

[Mk42gunner]

A mate of mine shot a big old buck roo (a bit over 200lb) with his 58 two band and a minie, he is a good shot and he put it right where its sposed to go - roo collapsed in his tracks. (they not super tough - a lot like a deer from what I see - complete with their affinity for causing wrecks at night on the highway)
I'm not an expert on roo by any means, I've only shot one in Western Australia. From what I remember for a comparable body weight the roo's chest is about half the size of a whitetail deer.

Robert

[cwskirmisher]

Original 1855 rifle musket. New style 575213 minnie over 60 grains of 3F. Pure lead, not alloy or wheel weights. Minnie lubed with MCM in the grooves and about 1/3 filled base. Accurate to 100 yards, groups within 4”. Deer don’t go far…. Most drop where they stand. Loads easily and follow up shot ready in about 10-15 seconds with quick charge tubes.

[indian joe]

I'm not an expert on roo by any means, I've only shot one in Western Australia. From what I remember for a comparable body weight the roo's chest is about half the size of a whitetail deer.

Robert

yep

[bangerjim]

Haven't shot with any Minies...............but I have been out with a Mickey and quite a few Goofies over the years!!!!!!!!



HA.....ha! :cbpour:

[Good Cheer]

About the slow twists, tests conducted in the middling years of the 19th Century determined that using the slowest twist you could get by with resulted in better long range accuracy. Then the 48" twist came out and they were so accurate that contestants using the P58's were penalized in scoring the matches. Technology marches onward!
[smilie=l:

[Ithaca Gunner]

The Confederate army grabbed all the P-58 Naval rifles with the 1:48 five groove barrels they could get their hands on to issue to sharp-shooters, scouts, and skirmishers, about 5,000 from what I've gathered, of about 80,000 short Enfields imported. The remaining 75,000 were the earlier P-56 Army short rifles with the 1:78 three groove barrels, 1860/1861 the English army copied the Naval barrel also. The difference is, Naval rifles are trimmed in brass and Army rifles trimmed in iron.

My original P-58 Royal Marine Artillery Short Rifle, (same as the Naval rifle except the rear sling swivel is mounted in the stock rather than the trigger guard). The bore looks like new, but I haven't shot it yet. I have shot groundhogs with an original P-53 Enfield and a Lyman 575213OS over 55gr of FFFg. It's the same effect as shooting them with a .30-06 or .308 with a 125gr. Spitzer at 3,000fps. Sometimes I can find the bullet and remelt it if the deceased was on a hill with ground behind to catch the bullet. I suppose you wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a deer either.

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