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69daytona
01-03-2009, 02:41 PM
Last night I was smelting some indoor range material and all was going good until I dropped in a scoop of material that had some water in it, That was the closest call to major third degree burns I have ever had.
The pot of molten lead went up like it was shot out of a cannon, as soon as I heard the pop I new what was going to happen and I dove as far as I could.
Hot lead landed all around me but none got on me, this was just about a 30 lb pot of melt.
Will never buy indoor range scrap from that guy again.
Water and melted lead dont mix, I knew that before I started but dint see any wet spots in this mix of crap.
Glad im not in the hospital.

357maximum
01-03-2009, 03:15 PM
Will never buy indoor range scrap from that guy again.
.

1st ..glad your not toasted, but you gotta explain that stement more...how was it his fault that some moisture was in the mix??

ALways always always when dealing with range scrap or any and all metal for that matter you need to fill the vessel before melting or heat it very substantially before adding the material to already molten metal...it was your fault not his....alot of us have done it...it is the fault of the smelter not the man you got the metal from. Just storing the metal in an atmosphere that has changed temp or changes temperature can put enough moisture in the mix to invite the tinsel fairy. I live downwind of Lake Michigan maybe I am just used to the effect of humidity and unstable temp changes...... CYOA applies here:roll:

Dennis Eugene
01-03-2009, 03:47 PM
I agree it's no ones fault but your own. Blameing the man you bought the range lead from is just silly. Dennis

Tom W.
01-03-2009, 04:19 PM
Learning by experience ain't always fun, is it? Glad you weren't hurt. I learned to empty my pot before I put another batch of lead into it, or else call it a day.

waksupi
01-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Glad you are ok, but it was a (near) self inflicted wound.

405
01-03-2009, 04:36 PM
Yessir, glad you're OK!
Had a minor visit from the tinsel fairy not too long ago. Something I've never had happen to this degree. Melted about 15# pot to temperature. Dunked the ladle in (cast Lyman) open top up as usual and pop flume! :roll: What tha heck! Just the light spots of soldered alloy on parts of the ladle and the usual oxidation coat. Only thing I can think of is whatever the oxidation coating was had absorbed a little moisture since the temps have been -0 lately. May show how little water is required? Good ole glasses, gloves and long sleeve shirt!

69daytona
01-03-2009, 04:40 PM
Yea guess it is my fault, being new to casting I guess you have to learn the hard way since not everything is wrote down at your finger tips. I will be spreading my lead out in a wheel barrow from now on and heating it up to make sure its dry.
wont be buying anymore indoor range lead either, out of 500lbs I got 300 lbs of mostly dirt with a few copper jackets and 200 lbs of good usable lead. came out to 25 cents a lb but not worth my time, I will stick to wheel weights from now on.

357maximum
01-03-2009, 04:50 PM
I would collect any form of lead you can get your paws on, never know whats gonna happen, especially with nobama and co. coming into "rule" this country.

I have always found range lead to be very usable...If I had a source other than my own traps I would hord it like the world is against me.

Boerrancher
01-03-2009, 04:53 PM
If I am smelting, I empty my smelting pot completely or I wait until it solidifies before I add more material. It is not like it takes that long once you turn the heat off for it to get solid, and it doesn't take long to heat the material back up. I also don't see how it was anyone's fault but your own for the appearance of the tinsel fairy. Everyone of us here who has smelted lead, has made some sort of mistake that brought about the tinsel fairy, and adding scrap lead to a molten pot is one of the most common.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

mooman76
01-03-2009, 05:37 PM
I had some lead once that appeared to be damp. I got it from my brother-in-law and he's a mechanic. He had them in antifreeze jugs. I turned the lead off and waited for it to cool down quite a bit and then I put it on top of the hardened lead and turned it ack on that way as it heated if there was any moisture, it would evaporate as it got hot. I also was doing this outside and din't stick around to watch it melt either.
Years ago when I first started and before I new better I put damp lead I had washed in the pot. Lead everywhere including myself and to this day I don't know how I got out of it without so much as a burn but I learned my lesson. I think allot of us here have mad that mistake at one time or another so don't feel bad, just chalk it up as lesson learnt!

Johnch
01-03-2009, 06:21 PM
I melt down indoor range lead all the time

First wash it
I use a big plastic tub , dump in a 5 gallon bucket of raw range lead , add 15 gallon of water
Stir with a hoe
Dump off the paper, wood and other light stuff with the water
I save the water in to old kiddie pool as I strain through a burlap bag
That way I can reuse the water and not risk putting lead into the soil

I then spread the washed lead out on plastic on my driveway and allow the sun to dry it

But I still finish a batch , before adding new

I always plan on 10-15% per volume of paper, wood ect

John

Jim
01-04-2009, 08:26 AM
Daytona,
Don't be afraid or ashamed to ask questions here. I GUARANTEE YOU, we all started this hobby without a clue. Some of us just started a lot longer ago than others.

Bret4207
01-04-2009, 09:19 AM
How did you dump the stuff in the pot? Did you basically just throw a shovel full in the pot? The reason I ask is because I have never had a steam explosion with lead. I've deliberately tried to create one by drizzling water onto a pot full of lead and all it does is hit the top and hiss like crazy till the lead hardens and it pretty much continues on and on like that. I've read stories where a guy claims a "drop of sweat will cause a major steam event" and just couldn't buy it. The ONLY way I can see this happening is if the water gets well under the surface of the mix and with lead alloy being so much heavier than water I think it would take some work or carelessness to do it. I can see a nice wet bunch of scrap being dumped from a couple feet up into the pot being able to get under the mix, but I put that in the careless category, no flame intended.

When I smelt down scrap I go through the scrap first and remove the valve stems ( I save them, I'm always losing them and the caps), the odd tool, nuts and bolts and lately live 410 and 22LR shells (!!!). The stickers, paper, odd hunks of this and that just go in the pot as flux. I get the melt going and using a shovel I add material by GENTLY LAYING the raw scrap ON TOP of the melt. Any moisture present will be driven off while on top of the melt. I tossed small apples into the melt and they act like the water- they sizzle and hiss but there was no explosion and a crab apple weighs more than a bird dropping or grasshopper, two causes for explosions I've heard of.

When I hear of a steam explosion I always feel bad for the guy it happened to, but I always wonder just HOW it happened. Glad you made out okay, next time try my method.

cajun shooter
01-04-2009, 10:35 AM
Daytona69, You just had a lesson in "ASSUME" You have to accept that entire thing.

copdills
01-04-2009, 10:56 AM
Glad you didn't get hurt:coffee:

Tom Herman
01-04-2009, 11:43 AM
I would welcome 25 cent a pound lead! I take all the range scrap and wash the crud off it. Then I either set it aside to dry, or heat it on a dedicated ex-cookie sheet in an oven for an hour at 250 or more degrees if I'm in a hurry and need to use it.
I think you've learned the lesson of putting anything that might contain moisture into a hot pot!

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

Tom W.
01-04-2009, 12:15 PM
Bret, when I was working at the sawmill, I was in contact with molten Babbitt every day. We used the Babbitt for saw guides, and I had to mold , remelt and mold some more. The guides were sometimes wet when I put them back into the pot, and it was a big (maybe 800 lbs) pot. I quickly learned that I couldn't tell by looking if the stuff ready to be re-melted was really dry or no. I started to stack them on the edge of the pot and after warning the people in the area, poke them in with an old push broom handle and running like hell. Tinsel Fairy City....

I found out that a person could pour water ONTO the molten Babbitt and, as you said, it would just steam up really fast, with no ill effect. Likewise, oil didn't seem to have any effect other than a lot of smoke and then it would burst into flame. However, water on the plates, when dropped so the water got UNDER the melt was a whole different story. And hot Babbitt will scar...


I never had any trouble with bird poop,moths, wasps, grasshoppers, and other bugs. The never got under the surface, and all they did was stink really bad.

69daytona
01-04-2009, 12:56 PM
Well at least I learned something from posting this thread, not from the first few people but others have been very helpful. You never know unless you ask and if it saves someone else thats new all the better.
To answer one question, I was using a cast iron ladle(holds about 3 lbs) and I lowered into the molten lead resting the bottom on the top of the melt then turned it over. I never drop anything because of splash.
Thanks for those of you who are a big help and have increased my knowledge. the rest that have nothing constructive to say are just like my dad if I didnt do it right the first time even not knowing what I was doing I got smacked with a 2x4 or whatever was handy.

Echo
01-04-2009, 01:18 PM
Could it have been a round of live ammo that caused the Tinsel Fairy visit? A nickle .45 round could make things interesting. Not much different from the scrap, visually...

357maximum
01-04-2009, 03:38 PM
I will take the 2X4 smack to third degree burns any day of the week...I have had both [smilie=1: the smack goeas away alot mo faster than the 3rd degree burns.

Ghugly
01-04-2009, 03:53 PM
Daytona,
Don't be afraid or ashamed to ask questions here. I GUARANTEE YOU, we all started this hobby without a clue. Some of us just started a lot longer ago than others.

Amen brother!

Bret4207
01-04-2009, 07:24 PM
Bret, when I was working at the sawmill, I was in contact with molten Babbitt every day. We used the Babbitt for saw guides, and I had to mold , remelt and mold some more. The guides were sometimes wet when I put them back into the pot, and it was a big (maybe 800 lbs) pot. I quickly learned that I couldn't tell by looking if the stuff ready to be re-melted was really dry or no. I started to stack them on the edge of the pot and after warning the people in the area, poke them in with an old push broom handle and running like hell. Tinsel Fairy City....

I found out that a person could pour water ONTO the molten Babbitt and, as you said, it would just steam up really fast, with no ill effect. Likewise, oil didn't seem to have any effect other than a lot of smoke and then it would burst into flame. However, water on the plates, when dropped so the water got UNDER the melt was a whole different story. And hot Babbitt will scar...


I never had any trouble with bird poop,moths, wasps, grasshoppers, and other bugs. The never got under the surface, and all they did was stink really bad.

So the ingots were falling UNDER the melt. And Fishhawks lead pipe would be ripe for that type of thing. I think my basic theory is right, but in practice I think I'll just be as careful as possible and try to avoid any events of my own!

TAWILDCATT
01-04-2009, 08:19 PM
try making a mold out of plaster of paris.my mother was very forgiving of me.course I cleaned the ceiling.if I remember right it was a metal one in kitchen.
In those days instead of reparing by plastering they had embossed plates they put up.lead came of easier on them.I learned.thats 70 yrs ago.:coffee: [smilie=1:

cohutt
01-04-2009, 10:51 PM
I will take the 2X4 smack to third degree burns any day of the week...I have had both [smilie=1: the smack goeas away alot mo faster than the 3rd degree burns.

Actually, they don't do "degrees" much anymore. They grade them by thickness now as in "partial "and "full" thickness burns.

How do I know?

Without event, I had successfully smelted almost 2 tons of lead. Then in September, I let my guard down for a few seconds after a small smelt in September.

A full, graphically illustrated thread was promised to 45nut a few months back, to be posted once my treatment had run its course. I'll still do that, and will provide details.

Until then, 69daytona, consider yourself fortunate.


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/burns/footburn921c.jpg


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/cohutt/burns/footburn921d.jpg

357maximum
01-04-2009, 11:03 PM
Cohutt


OUCH....hope it is healing well and without any complications....OUCH [smilie=2: Heal fast and watch for infections.


The originator of this thread thought I was being too harsh on him apparently...well now you know the why I was harsh (in your eyes I guess) and direct to the point....look at them pics..that sh*t hurts, and I would never want to see someone get hurt just because they were ignorant. Like I said...I will take the 2X4 anyday. I carry a nice scar on my right ankle from a lead burn when an aluminum pot I was smelting in let loose about 100 lbs of melt with no warning then filled my boot.

cohutt
01-04-2009, 11:56 PM
I'm finally able to put on a sock without having to bandage or cover the (now) scars after almost 4 months. Looked like i was going to have to graft the instep wound but it finally came around. Watch for full thread in a few days.

Lead melter
01-05-2009, 07:11 AM
Could it have been a round of live ammo that caused the Tinsel Fairy visit? A nickle .45 round could make things interesting. Not much different from the scrap, visually...


:groner:Amen to that brother! Somehow some 22 Shorts got mixed in with some range scrap I was processing. It was wintertime and I had my Lee pot covered with aluminum foil to help hold in heat. Those shorts really messed up the foil and sprayed lead splatters within a 2' radius. Could have been me and not the table.

Bret4207
01-05-2009, 08:13 AM
I certainly don't mean for anyone to think I'm advocating any careless behavior. I'm just trying to figure out the HOWS and WHYS of these events. Safety first, always!

Recluse
01-05-2009, 01:04 PM
Thanks for those of you who are a big help and have increased my knowledge. the rest that have nothing constructive to say are just like my dad if I didnt do it right the first time even not knowing what I was doing I got smacked with a 2x4 or whatever was handy.

This board, and the one it grew from, has always been about factual information and helping casters and shooters learn from, and avoid the mistakes of others. You blamed a mistake on someone else ("I'll never buy scrap lead from that guy again") and it is only natural that several people were going to catch that and call you on it.

When you log in, look down at the bottom and note how many "guests" there are at any given time. Lot of brand new people to the sliver stream. Bad information needs to be straightened out quick, else it ends up on Snopes. :roll: Also keep in mind that what we do can be very dangerous if we do not do it correctly. So bad information (blaming a tinsel fairy visit on the source of scrap lead rather than the smelter) is going to get corrected muy pronto.

Do this long enough, you're going to get some burns. How serious depends largely on you, the precautions you take and how complacent you allow yourself to get. All it takes is once. I'm fortunate. In the years I've been doing this, my burns have been minor. And guess what? Every single one of them was MY fault. Not the pot's fault. Not the lead's fault. Not the mould's fault. My fault.

I didn't see anyone hitting you with a 2x4. I saw "glad you're okay, BUT . . . " type of messages. And those messages were not just for your benefit, but for everyone who visits here.

cohutt
01-05-2009, 03:32 PM
Do this long enough, you're going to get some burns. How serious depends largely on you, the precautions you take and how complacent you allow yourself to get. All it takes is once. I'm fortunate. In the years I've been doing this, my burns have been minor. And guess what? Every single one of them was MY fault. Not the pot's fault. Not the lead's fault. Not the mould's fault. My fault.



Amen. My burns were my fault.

God didn't briefly change the standing laws of physics and thermodynamics just to watch me hop on one foot.

Recluse
01-06-2009, 01:20 AM
God didn't briefly change the standing laws of physics and thermodynamics just to watch me hop on one foot.

And He most assuredly didn't change those laws just to hear you or me or any of us add a four letter word beginning with "D" after His name, either. [smilie=1:

While difficult to look at (your pictures), glad to know that everything is going to be okay.

Bob in Revelstoke
01-06-2009, 02:44 AM
This happened to me last spring. I was melting a quantity of range scrap after the snow had melted. I had picked up a fair amount of fired boolits and had made sure they were dry. I had been melting lead and pouring ingots. The pot was about half full and I decided to add more to it. As I always wear gloves and a face protector I took a handful of scrap and dropped it into the pot. The explosion was instant and the visit of the tinsel fairy visiting was evident. It appears that a gas checked bullit had collected moisture between the gas check and base of the bullit caused the explosion. Thanks to my protective gear I wasn't burned. I did however learn not to add gas checked bullits to hot metal. They go in with cold metal at the start of a melt and even then I am careful and cover the pot
It might be noted, the good thing about snow is, when spring arrives recovered bullits are reasonably clean and in good shape. I have also been known to recycle those nasty J word bullits and re-shoot them. Especially for my .45 acp. I have some that have so many rifling marks on them they would drive a T.V. Forensic specialist nuts.

PatMarlin
01-06-2009, 03:20 AM
Whoa- glad everyone's basically OK.

I think some thought needs to go into designing a safety lid or confinment shield of some type over our smelting pots.

Even a thick- an open bottom wood box with legs and solid top that stood over your pot. You could install a side door- so you load a ladle of scrape, stick it in the side door and dump it in the pot. Shut the door, and let the melt do it's thing.

A top hatch lid could be put on the top of the box for processing your melt well after the danger period was over.

Any explosion would be contained, or at least confined to protech from flinging tinsel.

cohutt
01-06-2009, 08:15 AM
Whoa- glad everyone's basically OK.

I think some thought needs to go into designing a safety lid or confinment shield of some type over our smelting pots.

Even a thick- an open bottom wood box with legs and solid top that stood over your pot. You could install a side door- so you load a ladle of scrape, stick it in the side door and dump it in the pot. Shut the door, and let the melt do it's thing.

A top hatch lid could be put on the top of the box for processing your melt well after the danger period was over.

Any explosion would be contained, or at least confined to protech from flinging tinsel.


With my big 22qt DO i can leave the lid on but pulled maybe 1" towards me. Using a shovel, I add wheelweights by gently dropping them on the far side of the lid. The lid tilts just enough under the weight so that they slide in the crack. From 3-4 ft away and on the opposite side from the narrow opening I am protected from tinsel should any pops occur.

Berm stuff ALWAYS starts in a cold pot; whatever fits in is all that gets smelted that day. Too much moisture is the dirt that in on the bullets regardless of what i might do to try and remove it.

Airweight38
01-06-2009, 10:41 AM
Wow, I'm glad I'm reading this. I melted down a partial 5-gallon bucket of this stuff just a couple of weeks ago and had no idea moisture could be that much of a problem with range lead... I'm still not sure what I can do differently than last time. I was dumping it into the pot 5lbs at a time with a little hand shovel so that I could stay on top of the dross, since my pot was only 10" in diameter. Maybe if I get a bigger pot I can do it all at the same time?

buck1
01-06-2009, 03:14 PM
We have all been careless at melting at one time or another. This is a good thread, wakes us up again a bit....Buck

mold maker
01-06-2009, 07:04 PM
During cold weather, scrap stored outdoors and brought to a warmer area will condense moisture and bring a visit from the fairy.
A water drop on top of the melt should just dance like an ice skater till it evaporates. However if something pushes it even slightly below the surface it will expand by about 3000 times its volume instantly.
I lost 60# of melt in one big kabooooom. There is tinsel over 30' up in the tree over my smelting area. Luckily I heard it and ran out from under the silver rain.
Anyone who has had a visit will be VERY cautious from then on.
For that reason I smelt in the summer and cast with clean, DRY, WARMED ingots in the Winter.

Bob in Revelstoke
01-07-2009, 02:06 AM
This is what happened to me a couple of years ago. I was using Marvelux as a flux and was using a Lyman spoon to stir it in. I stirred and cleaned the melt as usual and poured some ingots. The next day I started up my Lee 10lb pot and without thinking picked up the Lyman spoon to stir it with. Apparently some of the Marvelux had adhered to the spoon and as it is hygroscopic it had absorbed some moisture and when I put it into the melt the tinsel fairy appeared instantly. Fortunately I had the bowl away from me and wasn't hit with the ejected material although some got on my gloves but not me. I don't use Marvelux anymore.

cajun shooter
01-07-2009, 08:06 AM
Bob, It was not the Marvelux but the spoon that had the moisture. My casting place is in a 12x24 outdoor building. Do I have to tell you that in Louisiana we have tons of humidity. I turned on my pot and when it came up to speed I inserted a large metal spoon that stays by the pot for stirring. The second it hit that lead there was a loud pop. Stupid me, the spoon had condesation all over it from the nights temperature change. If you see moisture on your vehicle in the morning you can bet it's on every other metal object. I don't use the Marvelux because it attracts moisture and rusted 2 of my previous casting pots. I also use Randy Marlins wood flux and the same thing happened early one morning when adding flux. Full of moisture.

PatMarlin
01-07-2009, 12:02 PM
THAT's a good point-

Specially when using Randymarlins flux...:mrgreen: DON'T leave it uncovered outside in an area with moisture. As it is wood, and wood will absorb moisture out of the air.

Feel it first. If it feels damp, dry it out in the house before using it. It drys out pretty fast. Also follow the instructions which say to "Set it on top of your melt and let it char before stiring".

That insures the moisture content burns off quickly, and safely. Right now I've got batches here drying out that I milled off of frozen logs. You can feel it by the dampness, and weight. Very obvious. One cool thing though is the frozen wood makes big wide micro thin shavings. Good for flux.

69daytona
01-07-2009, 06:16 PM
I dont think 357max was being to hard on me, just ignorant to the fact that not all new casters know everything and a little knowledge from someone who might know goes alot farther than being smacked in the head. tyr giving up some information so others dont do what I did instead of just being yourself. I use to be like you until I grew up and learned not to be like my dead old man, peolple like you better when you help and not ridicule.

badgeredd
01-07-2009, 07:04 PM
Glad I started reading this thread. I had thought a few months ago that it would be a good idea to make a lid for my smelting pot. NOW I just finished the lid because of the thread. I found out a few months ago not to add WW to a molten pot....they can hold moisture and will make a big mess if they go into the molten metal. Luckily I had stepped back from the pot and a couple WW just bumped me and no tinsle, but it could have been much worse.

Ironically, I had set some other lead aside because it appeared wet!!!!

Edd

Chad G
01-07-2009, 09:46 PM
Last night I was smelting some indoor range material and all was going good until I dropped in a scoop of material that had some water in it, That was the closest call to major third degree burns I have ever had.
The pot of molten lead went up like it was shot out of a cannon, as soon as I heard the pop I new what was going to happen and I dove as far as I could.
Hot lead landed all around me but none got on me, this was just about a 30 lb pot of melt.
Will never buy indoor range scrap from that guy again.
Water and melted lead dont mix, I knew that before I started but dint see any wet spots in this mix of crap.
Glad im not in the hospital.

I've done that many times, even after it rained last weekend. I wipe mine off or if I am pre-melting lead for casting I put all ingots in a pan and put it on a $9 hotplate and slowly warm the lead up, the water evaporates, end of danger also works great to preheat molds while the pot is heating up.

A Friend once told me don't stand directly over the pot, if a drop of sweat happens to bead off your face your screwed cause lead splash goes up.

I been burned more times than not, from welding slag to molten steel from a cutting torch, lead hurts much less, I prefer solider though its not as hot. :roll:

I always make it habbit though to wear safety goggles and a mask for splash back and welders gloves for handling stuff and gloves to handle cold lead, should have a full face shield but I don't have them yet.

WHITETAIL
01-07-2009, 11:03 PM
:drinks:Recluce, welcome to the forum!

armyrat1970
03-16-2009, 05:49 AM
I'll tell you how it happened to me one night when casting. I was outside on my covered side porch. I use a butter knife to stir my pot after fluxing and a Lee ladle to skim my dross. I always keep the butter knife and ladle under the pot to keep the moisture off. That night for some reason I just set the butter knife on the side after fluxing. I poured several bullets and after my mold got a little hot I stopped for a few minutes and smoked a cigarette. Before casting again I fluxed again and attempted to stir with the butter knife. Bam. Lucky I had my glasses on because I would have caught some in me eyes. The splash shot up to the bottom of my porch covering that is 8' high. It was all over the front of my shirt and pants. The moisture that was picked up from the knife caused an eruption. It's not the first mistake I've made when casting and I'm sure it won't be the last but I won't make THAT one again.

NoDakJak
03-16-2009, 06:33 AM
For the last couple years I have been using sawdust as a flux in my bottom pour pots. I have found that the sawdust will draw moisture in my shop. I now spread it on a table top in the hot sun and stir a time or two and then store it in mason jars. I place enough on top of the melt to cover it maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inches thick and then char for a couple minutes before stirring it in and then leave it on the mix until I am finished with that casting session. It works great as a flux but also has several more advantages. It seems to almost eliminate the oxidation that I previously encountered and also acts as insulation on top of the melt. Most of your heat loss from the pot is from the top. This is apparently working well as the heating element seems to cycle much less often, particularily in cool weather. A more even heat should equate to better boolits and an added plus is that it should llengthen the pot life. Just keep that flux dry. Neil

oldtoolsniper
03-16-2009, 09:31 AM
So there I was with my 500lbs of nice 4” and smaller sewer pipe. That big ole cast iron pot was half full of melted lead and she swallowing the pipe as fast as I could stuff it in. I had those big pee traps and never gave it a thought, I grabbed one by the two foot section of pipe left on it, shoved the pee trap in the pot and for whatever reason the tube settled pointing away from me. When the side of that pee trap melted through it sounded like a mortar round being dropped down the tube. When you drop a mortar round down the tube they come back out pretty fast so you learn to duck really fast. Lead does the same thing and it has a pretty good burst radius! Note to self; melt pee traps after splitting and from an empty pot.

Cap'n Morgan
03-16-2009, 11:53 AM
The moisture that was picked up from the knife caused an eruption.

An old guy I knew had the the same thing happen. He was using a putty knife to stir, and remove dross when casting ingots for shot dripping. When he dunked the knife into the pot, there was a loud bang. The knife handle split in two, and the tang buried itself in the ceiling above! Luckily for him, the blade passed between his fingers and no harm was done.

Molten lead and water don't mix!

PatMarlin
03-16-2009, 12:45 PM
Very important to take heed to your guys experiences. I even reference this thread with the instructions for my flux.

Wood does absorb moisture so you need to feel it, to make sure it's dry at that point. Bake it, or put it in a skillet on the stove to dry it out if you have to. THEN let it set on top of your pot to burn and char. Then stir.

We have a pretty dry climate here most of the year, but guys down south and closer to the equator need to be especially carefull with cast lead for sure.

Thank you for posting ...:drinks:

Gerry N.
03-16-2009, 01:20 PM
Some of us, me anyway, salvage fishing sinkers. I got a big pile of 3 and 4 lb. Halibut sinkers with a brass wire loop in the top. While melting them in an old plumber's furnace converted to propane, one blew. Luckily I was standing back 20 feet as I do when melting salvaged metal so only my trousers and pride were damaged. The lesson I took was that any lead or lead alloy that has a bail or clip sticking out of it has a potential wick for water to get in alongside of. I now bandsaw halibut weights or any fishing sinker with a bail or loop in it to remove or at least expose the wire. I set wheelweights in the sun, or in an old pie tin on a hot plate to dry before melting them. I've also learned to allow the pot to cool somewhat before starting another batch. Same with salvaged plumbing and vent piping, I saw away the joints, cut the stuff into 12" or shorter lengths, then split it to show what has homesteaded in there. Spiders, snails, slugs and wasps call the tinsel fairy for a visit as effectively as water does.

Remeber gentlemen, water is nearly as insidious as an elected democrat.

Gerry N.

mpmarty
03-16-2009, 02:00 PM
I have a four foot square of formica resting on a slight incline outside my shop. When I get a bunch of wheel weights I spread them out on that and let the rain remove a majority of the dirt and crud. Being in Oregon I don't have to wait long for the rain this time of year. Each time I fire up my fifty pound smelting pot I fill it cold with those wheel weights and let them dry as the pot heats. Once up to melting temp I no longer add from the outside pile but use clean dry weights to top up the pot as I pour ingots. Always pre-heat anything like ladles or spoons before putting them in the pot. Glad you were quick enough to avoid the "incoming".

Namerifrats
03-16-2009, 02:14 PM
I had an experience with this once so far. I water quench my bullets, and the get wet right from the mould. Anyway, I done some casting on a Friday evening. Sorted my bullets that night. All the bad ones went into a dry bucket for the next time I cast. The next time happened to be the very next afternoon. I plugged the pot in and piled rejects from the night before on top of the solid lead in the pot heating up. They were "dry" in the bucket, or so I thought. I started casting and after the pot got about half way down, I proceeded to add the remaining rejects from the night before. There was apparently SOME moisture remaining on those rejects. I heard a moderate hissing noise and the pot bubbled a bit. No explosion or anything, but scared me all the same. I now have a heat gun and before any new lead goes into the pot I pre-heat it with the heat gun to get rid of any hidden moisture..

ghh3rd
03-16-2009, 03:26 PM
I echo what Echo said ... I was about to say that I used to mine range lead for sinkers about 30 years ago. After cleaning out the garbage I looked carefully through all of the lead for unfired rounds.

I was afraid that someone may have had a misfire and tossed it out to the berm where it could wind up in my 5 gal bucket. I didn't want any surprises. I think that an unfired round would probably empty the entire pot of melted lead -- enough tinsel for many Christmas's!

Randy

SteelyNirvana
03-26-2009, 12:29 AM
The other night I had a 30# pot full of lead on the stove. The lead was melted and I had skimmed the dross off with a teaspoon. I keep my casting stuff indoors and thought nothing about pre-heating my 3 1/2# ladle. The ladle was at room temp but when I submerged it into the lead it began to bubble a bit. No harm done but it sure scared the hell outa me for a few seconds. To those who are new to the hobby (Like myself) I'd definatly recomend pre-heating your ladle before dipping them into the pot.

waksupi
03-26-2009, 01:16 AM
The other night I had a 30# pot full of lead on the stove. The lead was melted and I had skimmed the dross off with a teaspoon. I keep my casting stuff indoors and thought nothing about pre-heating my 3 1/2# ladle. The ladle was at room temp but when I submerged it into the lead it began to bubble a bit. No harm done but it sure scared the hell outa me for a few seconds. To those who are new to the hobby (Like myself) I'd definatly recomend pre-heating your ladle before dipping them into the pot.

Good advise!

454PB
03-26-2009, 02:16 PM
The other night I had a 30# pot full of lead on the stove. The lead was melted and I had skimmed the dross off with a teaspoon. I keep my casting stuff indoors and thought nothing about pre-heating my 3 1/2# ladle. The ladle was at room temp but when I submerged it into the lead it began to bubble a bit. No harm done but it sure scared the hell outa me for a few seconds. To those who are new to the hobby (Like myself) I'd definatly recomend pre-heating your ladle before dipping them into the pot.

This is where people get into trouble when using Marvelux. Yes, always preheat all your stirring and pouring tools.

largecaliberman
09-15-2009, 04:38 PM
For those who gather lead from indoor shooting ranges, look out for live rounds. whenever I smelt lead from an indoor range, I would first fill my stainless steel turkey fryer to the MAX, cover the pot with a heavy gauge sheet metal, light the burner and WALK AWAY. After 30 - 45 minutes, the "ore" should be melted down and any live ammo should have gone off.

I learned this lesson when a 22 caliber went off, luckily, I was at a safe distance. In another incidence, there was a B-O-O-M and I think it was a 44 mag.:castmine::Fire:

machinisttx
09-16-2009, 02:52 PM
Last night just almost turned out very bad for me. I was melting ww's outside and sizing bullets while waiting for a batch to melt. Thought I saw a raindrop fall... Sized another bullet or two and then saw a heavy mist start, so I killed the burner, donned the gloves and hustled a heavy cast iron skillet full of partially molten ww's into the dry. The mist/rain stopped for a few minutes and I considered dragging stuff back out and firing up again. Glad I didn't, because it came down pretty hard a few minutes later.

Watch the weather guys.

lwknight
11-15-2009, 06:46 PM
Dropping battery terminals calls the tinsel fairy as efficiently as getting a live primer in your spru remelt.

Slow Elk 45/70
11-16-2009, 12:05 AM
This is why when smelting...I always dump this stuff in a big pot and let it "simmer' for a while, out side where there is no danger of the problem you self inflected....this game is as dangerous as you like to make it.....with scrap , you can never tell....glad you weren't hurt. .... m

Big Dave
11-23-2009, 12:06 AM
Preheating the scrap in an old cast iron frying pan on top of the furnace for ten minutes or so befor adding to the pot will generally drive off the moisture that excites the tinsel fairey.
Keep an eye on it while it preheats and if it is wet enough to visibly steam cook it some more till it doesn't and then more yet. Also a cast iron ladel that has been laying around on the concrete floor in the garage will soak up enough moisture to be dangerous if you don't pre heat to dry it out befor dipping in the melt, same goes for ingots stored where it might be damp, dry them out befor adding to your casting pot, same for stirring spoons etc.
In other words pre heat to dry out ANYTHING that will be dipped or dumped into the melt.

Phat Man Mike
11-23-2009, 12:17 AM
that's why them big soda can recycling places have pre-heating oven! I was at one once when a worker tossed a can in and the melter blew up and made a huge mess! always be-careful while smelting anything[smilie=b:

kgb
12-01-2009, 05:40 PM
Did my first smelting yesterday, all WW and wound up with 37lbs of ingots. These had dried out pretty well over the summer and i just added more as the clips floated. Added more weights via slotted spoon, leaning back and dumping them sideways, got a couple of small hisses with no outbursts. Glad to read up and see the extent to which this process can go bad--in the future I will smelt and cast ingots then cool everything down instead of adding more.

Got 4 weights that didn't melt along with the others, they're marked differently so I'll see them in the future.

delt167502
12-13-2009, 11:01 PM
i worked in a die cast department as a section foreman. the problem was getting the furnace tenders to wear safety equipment .in the summer the temp. will reach 110 120 dg. i had a young man that almost refused to wear the hood ,jacket,coat& boots untill we had a thunder storm with a light rain. our ingots were stored out side . this young man started to feed the furnace. he was not suited up ,i called him into the office &ask him why ,said the furnace was low. watched him dress & then he picked up the 30 lb ingots and started tossing them into the molten alum. ( you always pre heat before interducing into the molten metal) before i could get to him there was enough water on the ingot to blow about 100# of moltin metal out of the furnace .he was standing in front of the door .the metal stuck to the wall behind him leaving a outline of his safety gear. he had just a few burns . we had to cut his gear off JUST MAKE SURE NO WATER GETS BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE METAL.if you do that no problems

Chris
12-14-2009, 05:57 PM
i worked in a die cast department as a section foreman. the problem was getting the furnace tenders to wear safety equipment .in the summer the temp. will reach 110 120 dg. i had a young man that almost refused to wear the hood ,jacket,coat& boots untill we had a thunder storm with a light rain. our ingots were stored out side . this young man started to feed the furnace. he was not suited up ,i called him into the office &ask him why ,said the furnace was low. watched him dress & then he picked up the 30 lb ingots and started tossing them into the molten alum. ( you always pre heat before interducing into the molten metal) before i could get to him there was enough water on the ingot to blow about 100# of moltin metal out of the furnace .he was standing in front of the door .the metal stuck to the wall behind him leaving a outline of his safety gear. he had just a few burns . we had to cut his gear off JUST MAKE SURE NO WATER GETS BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE METAL.if you do that no problems
Holy smokes! I bet you didn't have a problem with him after that.

delt167502
12-16-2009, 01:06 PM
he was a little shook up. told him that is what they mean by on job training.

jacpot
12-30-2009, 11:19 AM
I'm new to casting and had a similar experience a few weeks ago.
I was casting in my barn the morning after a cold rainy night, the pot was half full from a previous melt and once it heated up I picked up a corn bread ingot and dropped it in and "BOOM", every ounce of molten lead went straight up out of the pot and straight back down. splashed everywhere and was lucky enough as to only get splatters on my sweatshirt and a big 'ol splatter on the back of my hand the size of a dime. (I now wear gloves) It left a hell of a scar.
All I can figure is some condensation built up in the crevasses of the "layers" of that Pot-drippings ingot and I got a great lesson of the power of steam and molten metal.
Never told the wife - she still wonders what the "glitter" in my sweatshirt is.

pls1911
01-02-2010, 10:26 AM
Something else that will empty a 20 pound pot in a nano second.....straight up!!!
an errant primer swept up with the chips from the barn floor.
Happened when I first started many years ago and lesson was learned.... sweep the floor and blow it off with a yard blower twice before you start casting.
Then only recover floor scrap at the end of the session and carefuuly sort it twice before resmelting.

dragonrider
01-02-2010, 11:42 AM
Many times when casting, the adding of ingots will cause some bubbling when dropped cold into a hot pot. This is cause by the small amount of moisture on the ingots, moisture you can't see or feel. So to combat this I hold the ingots with pliers and heat them with a propane torch until the surface gets shiney and just begins to melt. When you first put the flame to the ingot you can see the moisture being driven off. Nothing goes into a hot pot without first being preheated. I once had a steam eruption when smelting lead pipe, it was quite violent and very scary, thankfully was not hurt, but had a mess to clean up, then had to scrape up all that lead. Preheating is the key to safe smelting.

Cactus Farmer
01-02-2010, 12:06 PM
I preheat my ingots with a hot plate and by perching they on the rim of the pot as I cast. Then pick 'em up with pliers or my gloved hand and put them in the melt. I have never been visited by the tinsel fairy and don't want to invite her over for a party.
A smart man learns from his mistakes.
A wise man learns from other peoples mistakes.
Sometimes I'm wise.............

Bulltipper
01-05-2010, 10:58 AM
I smelt fishing weights that i collect from the bottom of the Rogue River here in Oregon, the weights sometimes have pinholes in them that are filled with moisture. Glad you didn't get hurt! Musta been exciting though!

Brick85
04-29-2010, 09:44 PM
Well, you all have just convinced me to fill a cast iron frying pan with WW or shot or whatever I'm smelting, and put that on top of the actual melting pot as a combination cover and dryer-offer. Hopefully it'll keep some heat in, and get hot enough to dry out ingots.

nes4ever69
05-23-2010, 12:36 AM
hey i had a fun one melting some ww and pulled bullets. their was an API round what had no markings. long story short, it blew 4 pounds of melted lead everywere. i did get burned. that hurt. also ruined my melting pot.

Nose Dive
05-30-2010, 11:17 AM
Safety should be our first concern BEFORE we fire up our pots.

1. What we don't know can hurt us. (water in blind pockets in our lead)
2. Ventillation..breathing equipment - OUT DOORS...Upwind...
3. Saftey attire...fire suits, sleeves, gloves..and if RANGE LEAD, fire mask and/or hood.
4. Escape routes,,,if pot blows up (what was that..6 foot flames?)..what happens if your are in your basement or Garagre or barn full of hay?
5. Fire fighting gear...fire extinguishers.."Charged Fire Hose"
6. Fire watchman...yes a #2 man to pull you from a blown pot...Or to put you 'out'....
7. What about your legs and feet? What would happen to them of the pot fell over on your legs? I seen guys make bullets in their skivves....not too safe there for sure..
8. Did I mention EYE Protection...safety GLASSES..googles...FACE SHIELDS...go ahead and laugh at me while you can still see to read this.
9. Jobsite clutter...is the pot clear of your 'junk'? Bike parts, car parts..wood working tools.

Just read on another thread the guys are dumping sodium hydroxide and sulfuric acid and elemental sulfur in their pots to clean up alloys... This really scares me. Any one of the three if mishandled can BLIND YOU, BURN YOU and burn down your house with YOUR FAMILY too...

I am concerned about the proposed chemicals being added to our pots. I am 'only guessing' that only a very few of us are really trained to handle these chemicals. Having worked 30 years in a chemical plant, i know how to 'handle' these things, BUT, I DO NOT KNOW HOW to cook them off in a pot full of molten metal... I am going to avoid all that.

Sorry guys. I didn't mean this to sound like a 'scolding'. But we must press SAFETY FIRST when we start adding data about dangerous reagents being added to our pots....

"it ain't fun if your laying in the hospital" Chemical burns are the WORST.

Nose Dive

BruceB
05-30-2010, 01:03 PM
There comes a point where so-called "precautions" actually prevent the task from being done.

I deal with this all the time when the Mine Safety and Health Administration gets involved in the mining operation where I work (I'm from the government and I'm here to help you....yeah, RIGHT!)

UP TO A POINT, precautions are good and desirable. Nose Dive's list makes me think he works for a government entity, or at least has been brain-washed by one.

Breathing equipment? NO. A bit of ventilation is all that's needed.

Outdoors? Maybe, if climate and season permit...otherwise, no

Fire suits? No.

If "sleeves" refers to a long-sleeved non-synthetic shirt, yes. If welder's leather sleeves (OVER a fire suit?), no.

Gloves, yes...good leather ones which still allow some sense of touch and co-ordination. Heavy, clumsy welder's style...no.

Escape routes...not a bad idea to keep the way out clear, but spills happen so fast that it's generally over by the time our reaction sets in.

"Charged fire hose"!?!? Where on earth do you live? Many of us are rural.

Fire watchman? This is a HOBBY, not an industrial site!

Legs and feet...normal leather boots with pant-legs OVER the tops (not tucked in) will suffice for footwear, but I insist on using a long LEATHER apron which falls from neck-level to below the knees.

Eye protection is critical. I use curved-lens safety glasses which protect the eyes from sideways intrusions of foreign matter, and would prefer a full-face shield except that mine always fogs badly and is a hot miserable bitch of a thing to wear.

We can follow this hobby without being anal about it, just as we can run a mine safely without the "help" of the self-aggrandizing career-enhancing "inspectors" of MSHA. They are the enemy of mining and reflect the posturing of their political bosses. I'd hate to see bullet-casting follow the same road. My own doctor is a bullet-caster, and I've had this discussion with him on many occasions.

When I was a kid, there were kits for CHILDREN to cast their own lead soldiers. There were also kid's LIVE-STEAM engines, with 'real' fire, and 'real' steam. There were also 'real' firecrackers with some genuine power. All of us survived these hazards in fine fashion. It's not the hazards that have changed; it's the nanny-state reaction to them, and that reaction is far in excess of any practical need.

squirrellnuttz
05-30-2010, 02:42 PM
Today i was out melting some salvage pureish lead from a buddy, ended up with 28 Lyman sized ingots. Anyway, my first bit heated, melted.Great went to add another dry looking large hunk of counterweight in. I had a cookie sheet over to top, as it had unexpectedly started to snow ( in late May...welcome to Alberta), but just a bit, I was just finishing up.
The lead LOOKED dry.....
Anyway, bubble buble spit spit went the pot. No massive tinsel fairy visit. Luckily. I came in and read through this whole thread. Holy $hizzle-that could have been ugly. Hopefully lesson learned. I'm preheating everything from now on, thanks for posting your smelting mishap stories, it may just save someone's bacon!

454PB
05-30-2010, 05:21 PM
Amen BruceB.

One of the reasons I took early retirement was that I spent 90% of my time working on and worrying about safety and environmental compliance. A job that was done in 15 minutes for the last 70 years suddenly required a safety meeting, hot work permit, lockout/tagout etc., etc., to the point that normal maintenance wasn't being done anymore......we just ran everything until it failed. At that point, it was worthwhile to spend 3 hours on safety procedures to change out the failed device.

OSHA would have us all wearing full hazmat suits, supplied air respirators, issuing hot work permits, and doing atmosphere monitoring any time we cast.

Nose Dive
05-31-2010, 01:49 PM
Well let's see if the ole south Texas fatboy can deal with this little bit of safety backlash....

1. Knowledge of what we are doing... This tidbit fills librarys with information texts. When I read in threads on this site where submitters are describing adding sodium hydroxide, hydrocholoric acid, elemental sulfar to lead pots with 'dirty' lead of unkown qualitative value, at temperature of 4 to 500 degress F...with no safety precautions, to me, it reads of ingnorance of safety. The fact that we fashion items out of molten metal for FUN, does not in anyway mean we cannot get hurt.
2. Breathing equipment...well yes...lead vapors can hurt you and if you are inside, say in a basement when it is 10 degrees F outside, then yea, put on a canister respirator. I read this precaution at my indoor pistol range where I go shoot my boolits. When it is 10 degrees out side you must put on a canister or have them turn on the exhaust fan and enjoy the 10 degree a/c. It is up to you which you want. But you must have one or the other...
3. Safety attire...come on fellas... Flip flops and bermuda shorts? No I don't think so. I have an old pair of welders leather sleeves and a leather apron. "saftey Suit". yea..Leaher boots too.
4. Gloves...I think we all agree on this one.. Welders gloves..long cuffs..all heavy leather.
5. Esacpe route.. Take a look at my garage and well, gents..it will scare you. I can't get IN much less get out. So, for sure, no work goes on in there..storage only... I move all the 'kit'
outside the shed in the fall, outside, away from tenders and people to smelt down the yearly gatherings of the 'trash lead'. I can back out and clear off in a second. When lead is in my pot in the basement..clear walkway of bike parts, dune buggy carberators..anything I can trip over...Clear walkway..clear escape route. simple issue here. 'safety precautions...
6. Firefighting gear... charged fire hose..I use one every time i smelt my trash lead..and have it ready when casting... (garden hose by the way...with a garden nozzle) simple, easy, cheap, safe.
7.Firewatch... not gonna back off here either... When I am casting,,wife (Safety watch) knows where I am and what I am doing. When smelting trash lead in the fall..she is on the porch with cold drink, fire extinquisher, and 'fire hose'...garden green variety....
8. Eye protection... I think we all are on the same page...'safety glasses' mean just that..not our 'normal' Sunday Go To Meeting glasses. Yes, I use a face shield. I believe our fellow caster mentioned "6 foot flames' from his pot. I ain't that tall and that would reach my face.

I agree this is our hobby. I agree we do it for fun. I do. But, gents, in these threads we are getting into some concoctions (Acids, Cuastics, elemental metals) being discussed. I don't want to describe what we end up with if we blend the three reagent mentioned above in a lead pot at 400 degrees. Simply, this is an unsafe act by a hobbiest.

I am not suggesting we get 'Hot Work Permits' of our pots, but, we need to exercise due caution. Not all of us understand what is produced with acids and elemental sulfur. Here, certainly you need respiration equipment. Yes,,I melted lead many times as a kid. Burned my hands too... And, even made gun powder.

Lock Out Tag Out was fundemental training form the DuPont company in the early 70's. It has been around for a long time. It is fundamental traning throught out the chemical/oil industry now.

And I agree, there comes a time, under the correct conidtions, that the SAFETY PRECAUTIONS dictate the JOB IS UNSAFE TO ATTEMPT. This too is fundamental safety training. Too put this situation in a better mouth full of verbage..."if it is not safe, we won't do it'. So, make it safe and proceed.

I don't work for the government. I work now for CHEVRON. I shared this thread with our department safety engineer, and, she was disappointed. She suggested I expose the site to CHEVRON's 10 Tenets of Operations. I will encourage all to go the the Chevron site and see how we work, EVERYDAY. I will share, the opening phase in the 10 Tenets is, "We ALWAYS":... Plus we overlay 'Stop work authority'.. Each of us has this. Anyone can stop the work. We do it everyday. Also, we train ourselves that 'If you see it, you own it". Simply this means if you see an unsafey situation, it is YOURS. You have responsiblity to stop unsafe work and the responsiblity to get it started back up - SAFELY-. If you cannot make it safe, YOU have to obtain the help to get the jobsite safely prepared. I lost 2 freinds in the BP blast here in Texas City, Texas a few years back. The safety review data showed, there were over 130 points in the exsplosion scenario that could have prevented 15 men and women from being blown up. No one of the 60 people involved to one of this 130 STOP points.

It is kinda like driving a car. If you put your key in your car and don't have the mindset or thought of "I can be killed with this tool today, right now". I will suggest only, you may be an unsafe driver.

Finally, my only hope and request of my fellow casters is, Please have safety run through you minds before you turn on the switch to your pot. And please ask for information before blending chemcial reagent in your pot.

Thanks...

Nose Dive

Cactus Farmer
05-31-2010, 02:11 PM
OSHA would have us all wearing full hazmat suits, supplied air respirators, issuing hot work permits, and doing atmosphere monitoring any time we cast.

OSHA would have us suiting up to BBQ!
The best safety device I have is between my ears.
My old Case tractor is as safe as I am when I ride it. And it's a tricycle gear model too.
Shooting is dangerous too.
Ever seen the OSHA cowboy cartoon? If OSHA had their way we couldn't do anything,fun or otherwise.
I work in the oilfields and this is about as unsafe as it gets. Use common sence and think. I don't do anything that I think will hurt me! Refuse to get hurt. The safety guy will back you up on it. I've been on jobs where the lowest guy can stop a job if he sees a hazzard.

Nose Dive
05-31-2010, 02:28 PM
Well said sir... "The best safety device I have is between my ears"!

Our safety training, [I'm oil patch too], renders our 'safety devices' abit more
'aware of issues' than our untrained brethren. That is why they train us.

What we don't know, can hurt us.

thank you.

mongo
09-18-2010, 11:38 PM
I shoot in an indoor range that has a steel backstop that is angled upward where the bullets slide up, rattle around and slide down into a bunch of long cans. Being as new to casting boolits as one could be leaves me with a bunch of questions. As im looking at the piles of range scrap with all the small pieces of jackets and such, I find a lot of clumps of lead that crumbel in your hand. I guess that is dust from .22 rounds. Is it a good idea to melt these lead clumps or just the larger pieces of lead that I hand pick out. There is no paper or other debris in the scrap, The range is 80 ft and most of the people shoot at 50 ft. This is a fun hobby that lets me shoot a lot more but im just starting the learning process. Thanks Tom

jmsj
09-18-2010, 11:59 PM
mongo,
Welcome to the site.
The "clumps" could be lead from any of the bullets. I would melt it all, all that dust will turn back into useable lead.
Be careful of the dust, use a dust mask. Inhaleing the dust is a good way to increase the lead in your body. Good luck,jmsj

DeadHandRed
10-05-2010, 05:44 AM
Well that was a good read. thanks to you all for your mistakes and the time you took to share them. us noobs should be made to read this thread and take a pop quiz on registering for this forum.

mold maker
10-05-2010, 09:36 AM
Yesterday morning in about 3 hr, two buckets of range scrap, magically turned into 188 ingots, and a bucket of #2 brass scrap. Today I'm gonna allow the magic of fire to do it all again.
I've waited all Summer, for it to get cool enough, to sit at the pot. Next will be the 10 gal of C/on WWs, 253 lbs lead pipe, 66 lbs of stick on WWs, and some xRay lead.
This is more fun than going to Disney.
A week ago it was 92, but this morning it's 46, and I can wear smelting gear.

Nose Dive
11-28-2010, 09:46 PM
Hummmm Old range lead is good stuff..but messy...full of 'thangs',,, be carefurlll..

Start slow...start small... go up on temp slowly and you be fine..

Think about wut BAD can happen...prepare for all that... and DISNEY ain't got nuttin on US!!

Nose Dive

Trapaddict
01-12-2011, 05:09 PM
I use a 6 quart cast iron dutch oven with lid to do most of my dirty work of reducing huge piles of wheelweights down to muffin tin sized 1.5-2 lb cakes. I always keep the lid on to keep as much heat in the pot as possible at first to get everything melting nicely. I also always crack the lid open away from me to allow the smoke from any rubber tire valve stems to ignite and burn off. It's a practice I'm glad I employ. I do a pretty good once over to remove foreign objects from the melt. lug nuts, etc. Last year I had just stirred the pot and replaced the lid. I turned and was no more than 4-5 feet from the pot when what sounded like a firecracker went off behind me. I spun around in time to see the cast iron lid on its way back to the ground from a couple feet above the pot. Molten lead was in a 3 foot circle around the pot and turkey fryer. The culprit was found to be a battery. I found both halves of the battery. One stil in the pot and one on the driveway. It was one of those thin ones about the size of a nickel. Had it gone off 10 seconds sooner, I would have gotten a face full of hot lead. I now put all of the wheelweights in by hand and have all of the foreign matter removed prior to melting.

Jeff

LET-CA
05-10-2011, 07:06 PM
See my tongue in cheek posting below about my experience using my RCBS pot to cook dinner. . .

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7016




Hey y-all Nothing I could add to the technical side of this, my cast lead experience now totals about 25(ea.) .311x185gr. - but I got one about dropping new material into a hot pot.
Imagine Bubba and two of his friends are preparing for Thanksgiving and they have a pot of lard almost boiling over a fire in the yard. Since the bird needs to be done by 4o'clock and someone read (part of) the directions- it had to go in soon. Well "Bubba" went for the bird and came back; one frozen bird in the hand. With some forethought a (very good) friend suggests using a boat paddle to introduce the Bird to the pot. Due to the slippery nature of the beast he kinda jumped into the pot from a short distance above- kinda like he wanted to get in there. Well ... he came out much faster than going in (Bubba and friends were moving out smartly too!)... one could have though he was flying away to enjoy His day somewhere else. But he only got about 10 foot in a shower of hot oil that misted the area and convinced Bubba and friends to go to KFC for chicken.
I have changed the names to protect the ignorant, and do not admit to anything but a desire to learn more about Boolits and this forum has been a most excellent source. Thanks to the members and Moderators.

olafhardt
06-06-2011, 05:57 PM
We are so use to ice floating in water we think solids float in liquids. Solid metals are more dense than molten ones. If you drop solid metal peices into molten metal, they sink and tiny amounts of water turn into larger volumes of steam. A similer effect, calcining, can occur due to DRY mineral carbonates, bicarbonates, hydrates etc. Just heat up slowly.

1kshooter
07-03-2011, 06:58 PM
any time you....want to see the tinsle fairy...ad a fresh water quenched bullet back into the pot ...boooooom! every time!

showed a friend through a hole in a cover plate so we would not get covered!

sig2009
07-09-2011, 11:46 AM
Glad your ok!

badbob454
08-29-2011, 09:38 PM
my worst experience with the tinsel fairy was filling a metal 1 pint dot 3 brake fluid can ,that was empty to make an ingot , guess a little was still in there ,that stuff lit off at 700 degrees cause 3/4 of it blew out the top, blew out like a volcano , got a little burned but covered everything including me in my little wooden 6x10 shop .. now i do it outside in home made clean channel iron molds ... that was @ 20 years ago learned real fast to be cautious

R.M.
08-30-2011, 12:27 PM
I've had a few visits, nothing too bad though.
I had a live .22 get into some range lead. I've had old lead pipe, that say in the shed for a couple of years, spit straight up.
You just have to assume there's moisture on anything we put in the pot. How do you know that there wasn't a cold coffee dumped into the wheel weight bucket at the shop? Assumptions are bad.

Suo Gan
08-30-2011, 01:10 PM
If you preheat all your lead before you add it to the pot you will not have to deal with steam. I have never had a problem and I never will because I render in the winter and blast all the moisture away with a weed burner. I can be so cock sure of this because I take the precautions necessary and they are simple and do not require hardly any more time output. Like I said a steam explosion WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO ME and it is not because I am lucky or smarter than you it is because I take the time to do the job right and not CUT CORNERS. If you can't do that then you really don't need to be melting lead.

Rendering ,like doing anything even brushing your teeth takes a measure of common sense. You don't pick blackberries by riding your motorcycle through a patch at 60 mph because you are bound to get hurt. If you are adding lead willy nilly you will get hurt and you only have yourself to blame.

It is irritating to me to constantly read about the tinsel fairy, it should be called the stupid fairy!!

Pigwacker
12-22-2011, 09:14 PM
I've been casting bullets on and off for over 35 years in limited amounts, I've never seen the tinsel fairy and now have no desire to have a visit. I would have to consider myself just dumb and lucky. I live in a relatively dry climate and have never had the misfortune of mixing water and molten lead. But, thanks to this post, I now consider myself well educated about the proclivities of the tinsel fairy. Thank you everyone for your posts.

GT27
12-22-2011, 10:16 PM
Reminds me of the days back (so long ago) in welding class "77",when someone would be pounding on a bead and a piece of slag would go flying off down a boot or a shirt,you never saw a curtain fly back, and shoes, or shirt go flying across the room so fast!!!! Always reminded me of being chased by yellow jackets!!!:lol:,now on a serious note -"Safety First",and carry on!:CastBoolitsisbest:

twkilmer
12-22-2011, 10:47 PM
hi new to site.
just getting started collecting ww. but have not smelted yet.
have learned much from reading this thread .plan on preheating or not adding to pot on my first time smelting which won't be till spring anyways.
bought some ingots from possum that i plan on using to cast 44 boolits this winter for my first time.thanks for all the info.i have read on here .

Stephen Cohen
12-22-2011, 11:00 PM
this was good threat, as some one mentiond, keep an eye out for live ammo. I picked up a live 40 cal misfire in range scrap two weeks ago, since only police and security personel are allowed this cal , I know who to bag.

pastorcurtis
01-18-2012, 10:56 PM
A great primer for those of us who are new - thanks for sharing the pain so the rest can learn!

30cal
02-24-2012, 02:33 PM
Yep,I had the tinsel fairy make a mild appearance one day.I was aware of the moisture thing but until I saw how little it took I was shocked.Normally I leave my casting stuff in the garage and it seems dry,but one day I put the ladle in to stir up some lead and up in the air it shot.Think from now on I`ll just sit it on top and let it heat up as the pot does.

mold maker
02-24-2012, 03:13 PM
There are only two kinds of casters, Those who have, and those who haven't YET met the fairy

melter68
03-01-2012, 02:57 PM
yes molten lead does go all over the place, thats why i always wear gloves and long sleeve shirt

TREAT LEAD LIKE A LADY, gently

uccm25
05-08-2012, 06:37 PM
Tom Hermans idea of putting suspect lead in the oven to preheat is good. I usually make small batches and just heat it up with my mapp gas torch to see what comes out. I also had a blow up years ago, completely covered my coleman stove. You only have to do it once to gain respect. Good casting to Ya,
Guy

cat223
05-27-2012, 04:01 AM
Thanks to everyone for all of the horror stories and the wisdom that came with them. I just smelted my first batch of range lead and had these stories in mind during the process. It's a lot safer to learn from other peoples' mistakes.

375RUGER
09-24-2012, 10:53 AM
I melted a 3/4 bucket of range lead last night. I recovered 68# of lead from it. I had 5 or 6 rounds go off in the pot.
A while back I was melting a batch, I cool my ingot mould in water some. It dries pretty quick. This time I ladled some in and tinsle fairy was in there. It looked dry on the surface but there must have been a bit of water in the pores.

Nocturnal Stumblebutt
09-24-2012, 11:08 AM
Thanks to these stories I have gotten in the habit of letting anything questionable heat up to about 400 for 5-10 minutes before cranking up the heat to actually melt the lead. I do not want to meet the tinsel fairy, especially since that would probably cause my wife to put an indefinite ban on smelting.

Evltwn
12-11-2012, 05:04 PM
I use range lead I "mine" from the local gun club. Smelting yields me an average of 85% into ingots. I am absolutely paranoid about a visit from the tinsel fairy, so I am as careful as I can be...does anyone else think it a bit strange to play with 700 degree lead and call it a hobby?? Count me as one of the strange ones! As for wheel weights, I can't get any out the local tire shops...they have all switched to zinc. But, harvesting 1000 pounds or so a year from the club keeps me in lead, so no reason for me to seek another source. Be safe and have fun, guys.

Jay561
03-06-2013, 12:03 PM
Great warning for a someone new like me. Makes me want to get more clothes to cover every part of me.

PatMarlin
03-06-2013, 12:52 PM
Simply learning proper techniques of casting and smelting, and paying attention to what you're doing like when reloading will eliminate a visit from the Tinsel Fairy (for the most part). I've been lucky and safe.

...:drinks:

DxieLandMan
03-06-2013, 01:16 PM
After reading stories like these and of one guy who almost was blinded by having sweat drop in the melter, is the reason that I use goggles, wear long pants and long shirts when I cast. It may be 100 outside but I'm not one to take any chances.

hickfu
03-16-2013, 03:08 AM
I admit I have been a victim of the Tinsel Fairy, I was melting pewter to cast into small ingots to add to my alloy, I am very careful when smelting any metal and this day was not exception. I got smoke in my eyes so I turned and backed up a 1/2 step, took off my safety glasses to clear my eyes of smoke and when I looked up and towards the pot I got hit in my eye with molten Pewter.... Lucky it was a small piece or I would have lost the eye, I fully recovered but now wear a face shield. I never did find out what caused it.... Only thing I could come up with is maybe the squirrel in the tree above me wanted to punk me :takinWiz:

Doc

country gent
03-17-2013, 04:26 PM
Not Many years ago at work we had a furnace go up when adding scrap casting to it. Some joker had thrown a plastic water bottle in the scrap tub. This was molten aluminum and several were burnt a couple badly. Water on the surface does steam off Water that is encapsolated In metal or other container and coated with more molten metal turns to super steam and builds pressure rapidly creating a Bomb. Whenthat 50,000 lb furnace went it was heard thru the whole plant and felt thru most of it. was probably 100lbs of metal thrown out.
When adding scrap lead lower it to the surface and hold it there for a few minutes allowing the pot to burn off any moisture before lowering it the rest of the way into the pot. I used to smelt alloy lead over a coal fire in the driveway so shutting the pot off wasnt an option. I used to get large quantitys of range lead from an indoor range and it had paper, copper, moisture, dirt, and the occassional live round in it. I was melting in a 25lb propane cylinder I had cut the top off of for a pot. Around 300lbs at a crack. I found that a scoop or ladle full of scrap rested on the top for a few minutes cured the moisture issue. All my ladles strainers and stirers had 4 - 6 ft handles on them. Melting any material is a dangerous proposal and you need to wear proper saftey gear and stay/work as far away as is posible. I would try and sort out as much crud as possible but some always gets by. Be safe even ingots can pick up moisture lower everything into the pot slowly at arms length or farther allowing it to heat and remove moisture at the surface or above.Lead transfers heat fast an a end in the pot will be 700* and 300* (est)a couple inches above that allowing moisture to burn off at or above the surface.

savage99f
03-17-2013, 11:38 PM
If I have a batch that is a little damp looking it all goes in a cold pot and a low flame the moisture evaporates before the lead starts to melt..If you had an old oven it would be a good pre heat at 200 degrees ...stay safe Pat

Dududad
03-25-2013, 01:42 PM
O.K asking my question. Can over heating lead be bad for casting later on from my ingots? I removed about 15 pounds of stuff after smelting and fluxing 128 pounds of same. Some of my pours turned blue/purple. Is it possible I skimmed off antimony or Tin? The lead was from roofing flashing and 5 pound plumbers blocks. thanks Dududad

I'll Make Mine
03-25-2013, 05:33 PM
It is possible to convert tin to oxide (which then skims off as dross) by overheating your alloy. Whether you did so, is hard to say.

Dududad
03-25-2013, 10:45 PM
I can only say it was shinny and some type of metal but fluxing with saw dust did not put it back in the melt. thanks for answering. Waiting on my Elmer Keith 44 type mold.

scottfire1957
10-14-2014, 09:28 PM
I just started this hobby myself, but I learned in firefighting academy way in back in 1982 that water expands 1700 times in volume as it makes steam. Useful info for firefighting and lead melting.

Connelly47
11-06-2016, 12:27 PM
I have a lid on my cast iron pot that's the cut off bottom of an old propane tank. I use it to preheat the next batch going into the pot. I've seen steam and smoke come out that lid. It never quite gets hot enough to melt lead, just enough to dry off water. I don't add from this lid to a hot pot, I need a break between pots.

lightman
11-06-2016, 02:16 PM
Thats a good idea and a good use of the otherwise wasted heat.

Benjamin Robert
11-07-2016, 01:07 AM
I had a visit from the tinsel fairy recently. A friend of mine gave me a bucket of lead duck decoy weights that he found metal detecting. Since the nature of a decoy weight is such that the weight is often underwater they certainly contain moisture. Even though they sat around and dried out for years when i melted them down steam came out and made a mess.