How fast can I push it?

[archeryrob]

I have a NOE mold (311-184-FN-J5 5 Cavity GC) and I casted a bunch with WW lead hardness 11 and water quenched. Put one in the metal vice and files the side off og it and pencil test I can getting about 16 for hardness. It is Gas checked with lube grooves and I have been have object failer with powder coating, I just can't get it to stick to bake it. Even did Elvis ammo's 4 at 140 and tried 4 at 200 and hardly get a blue ting on the bullets.

So I shoot 3:1 Deer fat:Beeswax for lube in got 45 colt rounds. I was thinking of just pan lubing these and seating the gas check and 309 sizing them. I was originally going to aim for 2000 FPS, but wanted to get some opinions on if you think I still can with naked bullets and a GC? If not, what are some recommendations? This is primary a hunting application I am using and target shooting as a side.

I have 3031 for the 3030 and 4198 for the 30.06 and was going to run these bullets through both. Going to start with the 30-30 first.

[archeryrob]

for 30-30 29 grains of IMR 3031 Gordon's is showing
Max Pressure 32384 and 2010 FPS

[405grain]

I'm confused about what you said regarding "Elvis ammo's 4 at 140 and tried 4 at 200". Are you talking about baking temperature? To get the polymers in powder coat to fuse you need to get the temperature up to at least 400 degrees F. I bake my powder coated boolits at 425 deg. F for at least 20 minutes. You don't want to get the boolits so hot that it melts the lead, but from what you described it sounds like your not getting them nearly hot enough for the powder coating to work.
Cast bullets designed for gas checks will almost always work better with the check than without. Velocity with plain based boolits (without the gas check) should be held to 1400 or below. Otherwise you'll probably get barrel leading. With the load that you mentioned you will need a gas checked boolit. It is highly likely that you will have better accuracy and hunting performance if you decrease the velocity to around 1800 fps. Cast bullets don't have a tough copper jacket, so will expand at lower velocities than regular bullets. At above 2000 fps your water quenched COWW bullets might try to fragment instead of mushroom. Two last things: Animal fats in bullet lube can go rancid over time. There are several better lube options with lots of recipes on this site. Second, sometimes when you powder coat a cast bullet the nose of the bullet gets too large for the cartridge to chamber. Before you powder coat 100's of boolits, try coating just 4 or 5 and making up some dummy cartridges. If these cycle you'll know that this combination is going to work in your firearm.

[archeryrob]

I have failed, miserably trying to powder coat bullets. I have powder coated jigs a long time and I heat them, dip them by the hook and the powder sticks and I bake them. I have not been able to get powder to stick to bullets, no matter how I have tried yet. Elvis Ammo on youtube make the 4 minutes at 140 popular to get the powder to stick. It didn't work for me. I made the oven 200 and for 4 minutes and it still didn't stick. I get small particles of powder thatstick and you can't scrape off, but the bullet is not covered to bake a coat on it.

Okay, so you recommend I lower velocity to 1800. Is that just for expansion? I don;t think a bullet at 16 BHN should be prone to fragmentation, but that is just my opinion.

[405grain]

Here's a good resource: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellExpansionOfCastHP.htm
Now I see what you mean about the 4 at 140 thing. It isn't really necessary to heat the cast bullets to get the powder to stick to them. What's required is a static electric charge. Most people do the shake n bake method, where you place airsoft BB's and a few teaspoons of powder in a plastic tub along with a handful or two of cast bullets. Then you shake these until the plastic pellets and the tub generate a static charge that causes the powder to stick to the bullets. Naturally the bullets need to be clean and dry for the powder to stick good. There's lots of tutorials on the coatings and alternates portion of the forum. You could probably get lots of information by looking up "shake and bake powder coating bullets" on youtube as well.

[dimaprok]

Elvis ammo really should take down that video. Its not a proper way to powder coat and irresponsible to misguide people who are new to the whole powder coating bullets thing.

If you watch his follow up video where he is shooting AK47 with these PC bullets its producing clouds of smoke and he admits that PC is not fully cured and yet there are no farther testing or follow up videos that warn you, as long as youtube is paying per clicks that's all that matters. If you read about Ben's BLL lube he took 2 years to test it before he shared it here on the forum! I don't expect Elvis to be testing for 2 years but at least a follow up video that points out undesirable results.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Conditor22]

I have a NOE mold (311-184-FN-J5 5 Cavity GC) and I casted a bunch with WW lead hardness 11 and water quenched. Put one in the metal vice and files the side off og it and pencil test I can getting about 16 for hardness. It is Gas checked with lube grooves and I have been have object failer with powder coating, I just can't get it to stick to bake it. Even did Elvis ammo's 4 at 140 and tried 4 at 200 and hardly get a blue ting on the bullets.

So I shoot 3:1 Deer fat:Beeswax for lube in got 45 colt rounds. I was thinking of just pan lubing these and seating the gas check and 309 sizing them. I was originally going to aim for 2000 FPS, but wanted to get some opinions on if you think I still can with naked bullets and a GC? If not, what are some recommendations? This is primary a hunting application I am using and target shooting as a side.

I have 3031 for the 3030 and 4198 for the 30.06 and was going to run these bullets through both. Going to start with the 30-30 first.

IF you quench your boolits before powdercoating you may be contaminating the boolits so the powder won't stick.

Try quenching after you powder coat and see if that doesn't work better.

[muskeg13]

Getting successfully to 2000 with gas checked ww is easily possible. I've fired several air cooled ww/with a bit of tin in .348, .35 Win and .405 Win up to 2300. I don't water quench anything. Your most important factors are good bore to bullet diameter fit and adequate lubrication. Softer alloy obturates better and isn't brittle. Make sure you slug your bore and size at least .001 to max .003 over. Do not rely on the published or "standard" bore size to be correct for your rifle. In going above 1800, I routinely tumble lube already sized and lubricated boolits with Lee Liquid Alox (cut with mineral spirits and with Johnson's Paste Wax added) to coat the naked driving bands.

[archeryrob]

My bores are 308 in the 30-30 and I got some 307 and 308 readings on the slug from the 30.06. The more I checked the more it varied, so I am assuming 308 still and sizing with the 309 die.

I have tried coating 9mm WW lead Air cooled and 452 pure lead air cooled for the 45 colt and can't get the powder to stick to either air cooled bullet either. I have yet to try acid washing yet. I keep looking at this and there has to be a better explanation and it shouldn't be this difficult. I tried air soft BB's and can't find black ones. I shook the damn Tupperware so roughly as I got comments I probably didn't shake it hard enough I split open the side fo the container and it poofed blue powder everywhere.

I have 115 sitting in a lube cake on my work bench waiting to be pushed out, GC'd and sized. I am just going to load 20 for 30-30, shoot them and check for leading when bringing the gun home.

[brstevns]

Sounds as if you really need to try the shake and bake way to PC. I have at times warmed my bullets before PC but still shake these to get good coverage. Also you need to cook them at 400 to 425 for at least 20 minutes.

[archeryrob]

I have tried the "shake and bake" except I never get to baking because I can't get the powder to stick. I have tried air soft BB's, low humidity and shock the Tupperware container so round the last time I split the side open.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The shaking vessel should have a symbol "5R inside a triangle". So long as the powder is clean and you shake sufficently it should stick. I'm running loads for my 7.63x39 that average over 2,100fps with good accuracy from my bolt rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/A5KkvJ4.jpg

[brstevns]

Some powers have a hard time sticking if humidity is high. You might also try putting some bullets in with the powder in a smaller container and place them in a vibrate type brass cleaner for around 10 min. or so. What powder are you using?

[R1valdez]

PC seems to stick better when I use a heat gun to heat up the bullets before I tumble them.

[archeryrob]

I am using powder by the pound RAL Sky Blue (5015 if memory serves correctly)

I have tried air cooled and water quenched bullets.

I have a tupperware 5 container and used air soft BB's, I have never seen a recyle container with anything other than one number in it. What is a 5R?

I tried heating 4 minutes at 140 and no sticking, 4 minutes at 200 and bullets had a blue faded color, I tried putting hotter bullets in like I did for jigs and they all glued into a blue ball and reclaiming that lead made a sticky messy pot with powder that would not burn off and just floated on top. Never got to the 20 minute bake as you need to stick powder on them first.

I have yet to try an acetone wash or getting a pure PVC tube for my HF tumbler. I have not given up, but I have moved on to using Naked, Gas checked bullets for the time being to have something to shoot. Or it will be gun season and I'll be in the stand with a crossbow. :roll: I am building yet another chicken coop for my daughter and canning season will be having her keeping me busy also.

[cwlongshot]

Clean containers

Clean Bullets

Quality Powder


I warm my bullets on top of the toaster oven.

Small quantities of powder in a large container help allot.

With problem conditions a double ziploc with a vibratory tumbler can be a game changer.

Most manufacturers recommend 400 degrees for twenty minutes.

It WILL WORK, Good luck

CW

[brstevns]

cwlongshot is correct when he says using a small amount of powder. I have a few powders that will not stick if I put too much in with the bullets, but just a little and I get really good coverage. Have you tried the Harbor Freight Red Powder it seems to work everywhere.

[popper]

Try 2 coats of BLL on the 30/30. 2k fps should be attainable with the heavy bullet but accuracy may suffer depending on the quality of your loads and bullet.

[archeryrob]

Well, I did put plenty of powder in the tupperware. Maybe I'll reduce it to a small amount and try that. worst case I need more to coat better.

Container was brand new and bullets cast and rested in a container also and tried in just a few weeks.

BLL?

[Larry Gibson]

Might be easier to just lube and shoot them.........:Bright idea:

[Walks]

I use a 5" X 5" Ziploc container, about 1 1/2" tall. A teaspoon of black BB's and half a teaspoon of powder. 50 to 100 bullets at a time depending on caliber. Shake about 30seconds to a minute. Can get about 4-5 batches before I have to add another 1/4 teaspoon of powder.
I pick the bullets up up individually with CLEAN fingers, taping once on the bottom of container
to shake off excess powder. Stand up on oven tray covered in non-stick aluminum foil.
Bake 20min at 400degrees, dump straight into water bucket. Warmed on top toaster oven to start.
Just like CW says.

The way that works for Me.

[archeryrob]

Might be easier to just lube and shoot them.........:Bright idea:

That is the plan now. I guess luckily I water quenched when casting, for some reason. I would normally cast as soft as possible for hunting applications. The lead was an 11 bhn to start and went up to maybe 16 bhn when I tested one. I pan lubed them with 3:1 deerfat:beeswax and they are still sitting in the lube cake on my bench. I did that shortly after posting. I got 250 or more cast. I will run some with lube and look for leading while killing targets and steel plates. ;)


I use a 5" X 5" Ziploc container, about 1 1/2" tall. A teaspoon of black BB's and half a teaspoon of powder. 50 to 100 bullets at a time depending on caliber. Shake about 30seconds to a minute. Can get about 4-5 batches before I have to add another 1/4 teaspoon of powder.

Okay, I used way too much powder and BB's then. Maybe more is not better. Are you using sandwich bags?

[brstevns]

I have used them, but you might want to double bag if they get tumbled for too long.

[popper]

BLL Bens liquid lube. Ludmark liquid floor wax (used to use Johnsons but it was discontinued) and alox (LLA). A few drops in a container and ~ 50 bullets, shake a bit and let dry. Much easier than cooking down johnsons paste wax and less smokey. I use it for rifle when I don't have PCd laying around, use 2 coats.

[reddog81]

Powder coating is simple if you use the correct supplies and follow the basic instructions. If you use the wrong container, wrong powder or wrong curing temp it will result in failure.

[archeryrob]

I got two powder by the pound colors blue and red. The red worked fine and I had not used it was I was only going to use it for hunting rounds and HP for the 9mm as protection rounds. So the girls know loading red for defense and any other color for targets. My blue appeared to be a bit clumpy to me. Seems it collected humidity in it and won't stick. Someone I know gave me small samples of his powder and it stuck just fine and so did my red. I am assuming it came from PBTP with the moisture in it as it happened as soon as I dumped some in a container and tried it. Maybe I just wasn't careful enough, but I haven't complained to them as i can rule out I didn't screw this up myself. I bough some desiccant packs and tape them to the lid to keep the red dry and hoping I can save the blue.

I am almost done with my daughters 4th coop and got lots of other stuff to get through. I got lubed naked gas checked rounds and red powder coated gas check rounds to load and try out in the 30-30. Now that I got that figured out and got a plain based 147 RN 9mm mold from MP to run some more for power coating.

[centershot]

It seems that whenever I get the urge to try PC, a thread like this pops up. I've been using Javelina and BLL for so long, I don't know why I'd want to change, but every once in a while I do get the thought to try PC. Maybe someday......:coffeecom

[lobogunleather]

Powder coating came along about 20 years after I had settled into my routine for cast bullet shooting. OP asked how fast can he push it, so I will address that.

I shoot 9mm, 38, 357, .40, .44, and .45 handguns with cast bullets. No particular concerns about velocities; properly fitted bullets with good lubricant are capable of just about anything a handgun can do.

I shoot several rifle calibers with cast bullets, ranging from .25-20 through .45-90. I will focus on .30 caliber because that will best address the OP's question. In .30 I use 150-grain RNFP, 170 RNFP, and 180-RN (all with gas checks) for loading .30-30, .300 Savage, .308 Win, and .30-06 Spfd. My usual alloy is 50% WW and 50% linotype for a BHN of about 18. Air cooled, no quenching. Run through a lubri-sizer with .309" die (as-cast diameter) applying the gas checks and NRA-formula Alox lube.

.30-30 is loaded with 150-RNFP to 2300 FPS and 170-RNFP to 2100 FPS. Both the .300 Savage and .308 Win like the 170-RNFP at 2200 FPS. The .30-06 will take the 170 and 180-grain bullets to 2400 FPS easily. In all cases the use of powders within the middle of appropriate burning rates for that caliber have given best results. H-335, BL-C2, 3031, and 4895 have been my usual choices when loading to at or near factory ammo performance in these calibers.

The Lyman M-die case neck expander is an essential tool for loading cast bullets, in my opinion. Easy to use, accurate and repeatable results, easy on the brass, and cast bullet integrity is maximized.

Accuracy in all rifles I have used (a dozen or more over the years) is on a par with factory ammo. Winchester Model 94 carbine will deliver 3" groups at 100 yards, as will the Savage Model 99. Good bolt-action rifles in .308 and .30-06 will regularly shoot under 2" and frequently do 1" groups.

In all of my rifles bore cleaning requires nothing more than patches and solvent. I save my bore brushes for the fouling left by jacketed bullets.

All of these loads have proven to be completely capable of taking Colorado mule deer (usually 175-275 lbs) and elk (typically 500-700 lbs) at the usual ranges I experience (I have seldom taken deer or elk more than about 80 yards away, but occasionally up to 200 yards).

Summary: I've been doing this for 48 years. It took me a while to learn what works best for me, and I intend to keep doing everything the same way.

[archeryrob]

Thanks Lobo, that is very informative. I have some of the original naked rounds lubed that are WW and water quenched and probably about 14 hardness and 11 when air cooled. I figured out the powder coating and and did a bunch and got to have over a 100 of each type. I am going to load some and maybe try a few at a fast charge as I was going to limit to 2000 FPS but I like you got the higher speeds. I'll have to plug some data into Gordons for some ladder rounds.

Using 3031 for 30-30 and 4198 for 30.06 later on. 30-30 is my first project as it will be me hunting rifle this year. I sold all my factory ammo to force me to get it done. ;)

[Krag 1901]

Try Lee's Liquid Alox, works good all the time. It takes a while to dry, just put them in the sun.

[P Flados]

For years I used nothing but HF Red. Eventually, I bought some other stuff as I was getting low on the no longer sold HF Red.

I bought some Prismatic RAL 4005 Purple and some Ford Dark Blue. The purple worked great (good coating with very little shaking), the blue did not want to work at all regardless of what I tried. I finally mixed 50 - 50 blue and purple and the mix works ok. I get a mottled appearance that is a little lumpy. I am using it this way just to use up the blue.

Your blue may just be a powder that does not work with typical bullet techniques.