Advice wanted for a 458 wm build...

[mbarasing]

Hello all, nice community here--I've done some snooping around before registering.

I am ordering a couple integrally suppressed rifles a week from now and have some questions I hope you can offer opinions on.

Background: Live and work on a Texas ranch. Currently have 2 primary rifles that are used as tools--not toys. A Stainless Ruger M77 .243 with 4x Leopold built by Hill Country Rifles and a Stainless Marlin 30-30 I had cut to minimum length with peep sights.

The .243 puts meat in the fridge and handles long range predator control, while the 30-30 never leaves the truck and is used weekly if not more or running pests. I am ready for quiet rifles for my daily use.

Planning to order a 6.5 cm to replace the .243. I have used the .243 without issue on everything from elk to oryx but I think the 6.5 will give me a little more power while still allowing me long range predator control. The silencer will be the biggest improvement here.

Now... for the main question (but feel free to offer opinions on my 6.5 plans too) is the replacement of the 30-30 truck gun. This gun is used often, gets beat up, and needs to be short to allow easy use from a truck. A 30-30 is about perfect and I've never had a complaint. But an integrally suppressed barrel doesn't fit with the mag tube of a lever gun, so...

I was thinking about trying reloads--I have the equipment but have never done it--and making light loads for .458 win mag. Hoping for the performance of a 45-70. Feel like the heavier loads may be able to be used subsonic.

Questions:
1. can .458x2" American be used from a stock .458 win mag chamber?
2. Or.... can I load standard .458 win mag down to the levels of .458 American, (and below for subsonic)?
Edit*** note: I can have the gun built for .458 American but feel like a factory load would be better for resale if reloading doesn't sit well with me.

Thoughts and comments:
1. This will be a short gun, hopefully <20" including the built-in suppressor, but I will not be shooting factory loads often, if ever.
2. .450 Marlin looks great but seems dead and hard to find (as if anything is easy to find right now.)
3. Don't want autos. Don't want flying brass in truck, or the weight, or the bulk, or the complications.
4. I have a integrally suppressed 300 blk and am unimpressed.
5. The reason for the bigger caliber (.45 instead of 30) is to hopefully make subsonic shooting more lethal.

All suggestions welcome and thanks in advance,
Barasingha

[Mk42gunner]

I know of exactly zero factory .458 Winchester Magnums that are short, light, and handy like a .30-30; especially a cut down one.

I think you could shoot .458 American from a .458 Win chamber, it seems one of the supposed selling points for the .458 Lott is the ability to fire .458 WinMag from it if needed. But again the rifles are big and heavy. Point of impact???

Reduced loads may be possible, but I wouldn't necessarily call that beginning loading.

I wouldn't build anything in .450 Marlin do to brass availability, it was scarce before the panic.

I don't know about an integral suppressor for the .458, also do you really want to deal with an NFA item that stays in your truck?

The book recommended by Tatume is a very good read.

I look at the 6.5 CM (or the .260 Remington) as a modern 6.5x55, so it should do fine. Not sure about suppressed.

Good luck

Robert

[mbarasing]

You should read "Forty Years With the 45-70" by Paul Mathews. It is widely available; here is one source:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&an=&tn=forty+years+with+the+45-70&kn=&isbn=

Mathews describes the Ruger No. 1 in 458 Win Mag as the best 45-70 ever built. :-)

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it.

[mbarasing]

I know of exactly zero factory .458 Winchester Magnums that are short, light, and handy like a .30-30; especially a cut down one.

I think you could shoot .458 American from a .458 Win chamber, it seems one of the supposed selling points for the .458 Lott is the ability to fire .458 WinMag from it if needed. But again the rifles are big and heavy. Point of impact???

Reduced loads may be possible, but I wouldn't necessarily call that beginning loading.

I wouldn't build anything in .450 Marlin do to brass availability, it was scarce before the panic.

I don't know about an integral suppressor for the .458, also do you really want to deal with an NFA item that stays in your truck?

The book recommended by Tatume is a very good read.

I look at the 6.5 CM (or the .260 Remington) as a modern 6.5x55, so it should do fine. Not sure about suppressed.

Good luck

Robert

The gun will be built with carbon fiber stock, bergara action, and custom barrel so it could be pretty short and light. Not worried about the NFA stuff... better than ringing my ears a couple times a week. If a .458 won't work, I'll probably do a ruger 77/44 for the truck gun. It's funny that decent bolt 45-70 replacement seems like a unicorn.

I am definitely a newby when it comes to reloading. However, I can get win mag brass easily and there are tons of 458 boolits to play around with; figured that would be an advantage to learning.

I don't know about the free bore jump with the cut brass... some of my research says a ring will get buried into the chamber after a while. Then there is the accuracy concern. I saw a video of a guy load 458 win mag subsonic but he used a dacron filler and it made a puff when shot... I'm guessing that would be bad in a supressed barrel.

[44MAG#1]

I have a Ruger #1 in 458 Win Mag. Have shot 2400 loads in it and an Encore handgun I have in 458 Win Mag.

[mbarasing]

I have a Ruger #1 in 458 Win Mag. Have shot 2400 loads in it and an Encore handgun I have in 458 Win Mag.

Do you reload? Ever put cut down brass thru them, like 458x2 or 458x1.5? What do you use the handgun for and how long is the barrel?

[44MAG#1]

No need to cut down the brass. Just played with the Encore. Barrel is 14 inches. Had it up to slightly over 1900 with a 500 grain.

[mbarasing]

No need to cut down the brass. Just played with the Encore. Barrel is 14 inches. Had it up to slightly over 1900 with a 500 grain.

Do you mean that I can download 458 win mag for light loads without cutting them down? Ever try 400gr at 1000 fps?

[mbarasing]

What twist would y'all recommend in a short barrel 458 designed for heavy and slow rounds?

[44MAG#1]

What twist would y'all recommend in a short barrel 458 designed for heavy and slow rounds?

That is what fast powder is for. I use a filler and 2400. It is easy to cover 45/70 velocities in the 458 Win Mag. I am not going to buy 458 Brass and then start cutting it down.
Most 458 Mags have a 1 in 14 twist which is faster than most 45/70's.
No worry on accuracy

[mbarasing]

GR.: 385 gr
Bullet Type: Lead LRN (CPB)
Primer: CCI 250 Mag
Powder: Trail Boss (Hodgdon)
Case: WIN
Trim Length: 2.490"
C.O.L.: 3.000"
Powder: 16.0 gr
Powder: 19.0 gr
Velocity: 1,020
Velocity: 1,123
Pressure: 12,100
Pressure: 16,100
Diameter: 0.459"
Source: Hodgdon

Found the above on shootersreference.com

I worry about the filler hanging on the suppressor.

[mbarasing]

Sure, no need to cut down 458 wm brass... but why not cut down 7mm, 300 wm, or 338?

[44MAG#1]

What kind of suppressor? I
Do you have a pic of it?

[mbarasing]

GR.: 405 gr
Bullet Type: Lead LFP (CPB)
Primer: CCI 250 Mag
Powder: Trail Boss (Hodgdon)
Case: WIN
Trim Length: 2.490"
C.O.L.: 2.910"
Powder: 18.0 gr
Powder: 21.0 gr
Velocity: 1,040
Velocity: 1,082
Pressure: 14,500
Pressure: 17,100
Diameter: 0.458"

Another from shooter's reference .com

[44MAG#1]

I don't want the bullet wobbling in that open space. I want the bullet as close to the rifling I can get.

[mbarasing]

What kind of suppressor? I
Do you have a pic of it?

http://www.suppressedweaponsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/20180121_140917.jpg

Like this. The rifle isn't built yet, I order the builds a week from tomorrow.

[44MAG#1]

What is that type of suppressor for?

[mbarasing]

I don't want the bullet wobbling in that open space. I want the bullet as close to the rifling I can get.

If I get to intimidated to set myself up for reloading 458 wm for the foreseeable future, then I'll go with a 44 mag. Can you give me a comparison between it and your light load 458s? (Your username checks out so I figured I'd ask.)

[mbarasing]

What is that type of suppressor for?

That picture is the guts. The sleeve next to it covers the guts. It's easy to clean this kind. They start with a big bull barrel and then machine the suppressor into it and the slip the cover sleeve over it.
https://www.suppressedweaponsystems.com/products/bolt-actions/

[44MAG#1]

A rifle in 458 Win Mag loaded like you are talking about is basically nothing in recoil or blast. If that level of recoil is beginning to intimidate you you need to go to a smaller caliber
A Marlin 45/70 at the level you are talking about is child's play. In the Marlin 45/70's I had I typically shot 550 grain bullets at 1500 fps.

[mbarasing]

A rifle in 458 Win Mag loaded like you are talking about is basically nothing in recoil or blast. If that level of recoil is beginning to intimidate you you need to go to a smaller caliber
A Marlin 45/70 at the level you are talking about is child's play. In the Marlin 45/70's I had I typically shot 550 grain bullets at 1500 fps.

The recoil isn't intimidating... the reloading is, never done it before but willing to learn.

[mbarasing]

GR.: 485 gr
Bullet Type: LFP (Meister)
Primer: CCI 250 Mag
Powder: Trail Boss (Hodgdon)
Case: WIN
Trim Length: 2.490"
C.O.L.: 2.925"
Powder: 13.0 gr
Powder: 19.0 gr
Velocity: 860
Velocity: 962
Pressure: 15,500
Pressure: 22,700
Diameter: 0.458"

Another from shooter's reference...putting here so I can find easily

[44MAG#1]

I you have any amount of intellegence you can reload. It is not intimidating. You will have all kinds on forums that like to get technical and use terms and rhetoric but it is as much to make themselves look loaded with knowledge to be impressive. You learn as you go. Get with someone local that will help you. You will be better off. Someone than can come over to watch you, give pointers, a hands on approach.
Many like to make a mystery out of reloading to help further their persona. I've been loading for around 51 years. Heard it all, seen people at the range talk a big game and me knowing them and their ability which wasn't much and people would be gathered around them to listen to them.

[mbarasing]

How about using filler with a suppressor...cause for concern?

[44MAG#1]

I don't know. I've used it with the brake on my 458 Mag Encore and it is good to go on that. But I was using 2400 with a 515 grain at around 1100 in 14 inches. I would try it if I every wanted to use a powder that would benefit with a filler and carefully keep an eye on it. That is the learning part. If it is a no no then don't. If it is good use it. Can you take the suppressor off when you want to?

[mbarasing]

I don't know. I've used it with the brake on my 458 Mag Encore and it is good to go on that. But I was using 2400 with a 515 grain at around 1100 in 14 inches. I would try it if I every wanted to use a powder that would benefit with a filler and carefully keep an eye on it. That is the learning part. If it is a no no then don't. If it is good use it. Can you take the suppressor off when you want to?

No, it's machined right onto the barrel. I guess if the filler causes problems then I start cutting down brass and deal with the free bore jump

[Gone_rabid]

Not trying to talk you out of anything but why a 458 win mag?

And if you fell intimidated by reloading you may go with 44 mag?

That’s a pretty large span. The 45-70 can be loaded all over the place from hot to not.

Here’s a single shot 45-70 that was cut to 16” that I have.

283777

[mbarasing]

Not trying to talk you out of anything but why a 458 win mag?

And if you fell intimidated by reloading you may go with 44 mag?

That’s a pretty large span. The 45-70 can be loaded all over the place from hot to not.

Here’s a single shot 45-70 that was cut to 16” that I have.

283775

45-70 would be great. But I can't get a supressed barrel on a lever and I'd like more than one shot when the piggies are running.

I'm hunting for a bolt action that can be integrally supressed. Ruger makes a 77/44 that would work...but as you hint at, would definitely not be ideal.

I would like to load the 458 win mag down to 45-70 level. I figured that brass could be cut from any win mag and selection of boolits is great.

[Gone_rabid]

I assume you dead set on the integrally suppressed barrel vs a screw on?

I’m trying to see what your thoughts are on all your options so I see your point of view on why you want what you want.

[kenton]

Ruger makes a short barreled bolt in 450 bushmaster, it would use .452 bullets instead of .458, but if .429 bullets would work that should not be an issue.

https://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16950.html

A M77 based option
https://www.ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6837.html

[44MAG#1]

Downloading a 458 Win Mag is easy. If he wants a 458 WM he wants a 458 WM. If he really, really wants one he won't be satisfied unless he gets one. Plus the 458 WM is fun. As he learns to reload he will become more understanding. Now 8f a filler can't be used because of the fixed suppressor I would be investigating one that could be removed so I could use a filler.

[mbarasing]

I assume you dead set on the integrally suppressed barrel vs a screw on?

I’m trying to see what your thoughts are on all your options so I see your point of view on why you want what you want.

Set on integrally supressed. I've used twist on for predator competitions and they always feel front heavy... but more importantly, this will be a truck gun. Wielding a long gun inside a truck is unwieldy.

[mbarasing]

Why use a huge cartridge case for subsonic shooting? The 45 Colt or 45 ACP will do that just fine, and is way, way easier to load. Subsonic loads are published in abundance, you can use carbide dies (no case sizing lubricant), cast bullets are readily available, powder charges are small, fillers are not needed, and the list goes on.

Yup... that's why 44 mag would be my choice if I decide not to start reloading.

One thing I should note... I'd like to try out subsonic just to see what it's like with heavy lead. I have been unimpressed with 300 blk subs so I am not sold on the concept yet. 45-70 type loads will be the main use. But the thought of cranking it up to factory 458 win mag all the way down to heavy subsonic intrigues me.

[mbarasing]

283780

It seems the 458 win mag is designed with a long throat and a lot of free bore. Maybe cut brass and free bore jump wouldn't be a big issue. In the interest of using standard 458 win mag brass; could the boolit be recessed into the case on light loads thereby preventing the need for filler? Cycling rounds may be an issue if the edge of the brass hangs but...what other problems occur?

[Gone_rabid]

Set on integrally supressed. I've used twist on for predator competitions and they always feel front heavy... but more importantly, this will be a truck gun. Wielding a long gun inside a truck is unwieldy.

I didn’t even give the truck gun a thought even though I read it. Haha

Please make sure you follow up once you get it.

[mbarasing]

Ruger makes a short barreled bolt in 450 bushmaster, it would use .452 bullets instead of .458, but if .429 bullets would work that should not be an issue.

https://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/specSheets/16950.html

A M77 based option
https://www.ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6837.html

A neighbor of mine has a bushmaster on an AR platform. To be honest I never gave this round a second thought coming from the autos. I'll look into this more, thanks for the suggestion. I imagine the ammo options are more limited but it's worth investigating.

[RustyReel]

I have the 458WM, 458 American (458x2) and the 450 Marlin all on Mauser actioned rifles.

The 450 Marlin was the result of Shaw listing some sale barrels in that caliber and I have enough brass to last me the rest of the time I'm here. If I got desperate I could set the barrel back a few threads and rechamber to the American or WM version.

The American was simply a caliber I had always wanted for some unknown reason. I have shot a few of these in my WM rifle and they worked fine but I would imagine a steady diet of them would have some ill effects on the WM chamber. The American's big advantage over the other two calibers is that it can be made from just about any ole piece of magnum brass you find at the range.

The WM can also be downloaded to 45/70 ballistics without issue. Lots of data on line and you might want to pick up the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Someone put a brake on the WM before I bought it and it does seem to make a significant difference.

[mbarasing]

283781

Here is my 30-30 truck gun that I want to replace with a suppressed gun of equal or better versatility.

[mbarasing]

The WM can also be downloaded to 45/70 ballistics without issue. Lots of data on line and you might want to pick up the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Someone put a brake on the WM before I bought it and it does seem to make a significant difference.

Do you use a filler when downloading the WM? is the only purpose of the American to avoid the need for a filler when downloading the WM? What would happen if you simply recessed a boolit into the WM case by 1/2" OAL? Essentially, it would be an American load in a WM case...what's the downside?

I'll look into the book, thanks. I have "40 years with the 45/70" on the way thanks to Tatume's suggeston.

[dverna]

The integrally suppressed concept is very interesting. So is your application.

There are a couple of issues that need to be addressed. Will the rifle going to be used only for sub sonic loads? Will you ever want to shoot more powerful loads? BTW many .458 commercial bullets are not going to work well at sub-sonic velocities. Bear in mind most here shoot cast bullets that can be made to work. IMO, if you intend to use commercial bullets, staying with a pistol caliber gives you a better choice of bullets that work well at lower velocity.

Also, you are investing a lot of $$$$ without a lot of experience.

Do let reloading deter your choices. There are plenty of good YouTube videos that will ease your concerns. It is not a complicated process.

Anyway, based on what you have shared, I think the .458 is a poor choice unless this will be a dual purpose rifle. I would go with the Ruger 77/44. The .458 WM will be a heavier rifle and have a longer action...both things that negatively impact your goals of a light, quick truck gun. There are plenty of good commercial .44 bullets that will work well.

I cannot see any "need" for a full house .458 WM rifle for Texas hunting unless you just want to use it for ****s and giggles, or you plan a trip to larger game.

[44MAG#1]

It is easy for experienced reloaders, which the OP is not. There are plenty of ways to get in trouble doing so.
While I will agree with you to some degree using data for the 45/70 with proper data for 2400 or Unique in the 458 Win Mag isn't hard to do.
It is a straight case although tapered so to speak. Using a filler to keep the powder in the correct position is no problem and doesn't take an Einstein to do. Using ones brain is what it takes. I've downloaded 45/70 and 458 Win Mag and can testify to the ease of it.

[mbarasing]

It is easy for experienced reloaders, which the OP is not. There are plenty of ways to get in trouble doing so.

Very true... I haven't even looked a the reloading equipment I have, left to me by an old timer before he passed. Of course buying new tools is just as fun as buying new guns, for me anyways.

If I go this route I may need to purchase an old cheap 458 WM rifle to experiment with before sending my reloads down the suppressed barrel.

[mbarasing]

The integrally suppressed concept is very interesting. So is your application.

There are a couple of issues that need to be addressed. Will the rifle going to be used only for sub sonic loads? Will you ever want to shoot more powerful loads? BTW many .458 commercial bullets are not going to work well at sub-sonic velocities. Bear in mind most here shoot cast bullets that can be made to work. IMO, if you intend to use commercial bullets, staying with a pistol caliber gives you a better choice of bullets that work well at lower velocity.

Also, you are investing a lot of $$$$ without a lot of experience.

Do let reloading deter your choices. There are plenty of good YouTube videos that will ease your concerns. It is not a complicated process.

Anyway, based on what you have shared, I think the .458 is a poor choice unless this will be a dual purpose rifle. I would go with the Ruger 77/44. The .458 WM will be a heavier rifle and have a longer action...both things that negatively impact your goals of a light, quick truck gun. There are plenty of good commercial .44 bullets that will work well.

I cannot see any "need" for a full house .458 WM rifle for Texas hunting unless you just want to use it for ****s and giggles, or you plan a trip to larger game.

Yes, I expect to use the gun with typical standard 45-70 type loads the most. But experimenting with subsonics intrigues me only because the gun will be suppressed and so why not see how quiet it could be. As far as factory 458 WM loads go... The only time I see a need for it is when some hot shot asks to try out my new gun.

I usually catch on to things pretty quick and feel like reloading shouldn't be difficult and the endless options available for a straight cased 458 makes a pretty good test bed I would think.

[mbarasing]

I've downloaded both also, but that doesn't change the fact that experienced people have ruined guns doing so. Even the glossy magazines sometimes recommend tamping a small ball of filler onto the powder! Many is the barrel bulged that way. How is a neophyte loader to know who to believe?

I saw an article by Ross Seyfried in which he recommended tamping filler until the case will full and the filler was packed hard. It was admitted that he was not experienced in the use of filler, and this was his first attempt as doing so (with pictures BTW). Seyfried was a world champion shooter, and I have no doubt that he knew a thing or two about reloading. But he didn't know filler from beans! While filling the case with hard-packed filler might not bulge the barrel, it still makes my point that beginners at anything can and will make mistakes. It is best to start with an easy cartridge and use loading data and procedures published by reputable sources, which in my opinion does not include magazines or Internet sources (including me and others), with the exception of the powder companies.

283782

These are some reload specs from Hodgdon... do they require filler? Or to ask another way, when trying out reloads from powder providers, are filler specified also or is it just an unspoken given that the case should not have a lot of void space and filler should be used when necessary?

[44MAG#1]

You are not going to find anyone that knows everything there is to know about everything there is to know anything about.
While one could get into trouble one should study on what they are going to do. The key is study. Something that is foreign to may. I've never seen anywhere a filler should be tamped down hard over/on smokeless powder unless, maybe it is black powder that is being reduced for some reason.
Study study some more and then study even more. Do not overestimate ones intellegence. Proceed with caution.

[mbarasing]

If fillers are not specified by Hodgdon, they are not needed with Hodgdon data. Follow the loads and directions as given.

Good news, thanks.

283783

Here is some Hodgdon reload data for the 45-70 that I would be interested in trying out for the 458 WM. Notice the COL is about 2.5" for all loads. Could I recess the boolit to be flush with the 458 WM case, which is 2.5"? there wouldn't be a need for filler that way. Anyone ever tried this?

[mbarasing]

Do you have reloading manuals (note plural)? You should read them. They will caution against interpolating data. I recommend the manuals published by Speer, Hodgdon (which it appears you have), Hornady, and Sierra.

To answer your specific question, you are making dangerous guesses that can get you into trouble.

I have no manuals, only internet. IF I go with a 458 WM for the truck gun then I will get whatever is necessary to make it work for me OR I'll get rid of the thing a figure something else out.

I'm not trying to guess at anything. I'm asking questions instead of guessing. My first two questions to start this thread were: 1. can I shoot short brass in a WM chamber; and 2. can I download WM to 458 american (should have said 45-70) specs.

So far the feedback has been: 1. Yes, short brass will work in the 458 WM chamber BUT... accuracy may be sacrificed and prolonged use may damage the chamber; and 2. Yes, but you'd better know little and be smart with it or you could hurt yourself or the gun.

New questions I have raised are 3. Can a boolit be recessed into a case to help take up volume when downloading; and, 4. Will fillers cause problems with suppressors.

https://youtu.be/8QKwcs3a63c

I watched this video and at the end he fires the load and all the filler flies out--I would like to avoid that debris entering the suppressed barrel which leads me to question #3.


EDIT***
I posted the wrong video above. In that video he does the reloading.

https://youtu.be/TSzcHi8QNV8

In this video he shoot the reloads.

[44MAG#1]

Do you think someone should begin a graduate physics program before learning university physics?

I told how I feel in post 24. He needs to get with someone who can give him hands on training. But downloading straight wall cases with isnt something that it takes an advanced degree in reloading to do. Should he blindly start going wide flat out open like gangbusters, no. But with study and caution he can do it.

[mbarasing]

My current thoughts on reloading that may be completely off so please correct me.

The 458 WM is made heavy and strong to handle big loads and pressures... at least more so than the 45-70. Trying 45-70 loads in a WM should be safe pressure wise. The biggest issue may be voids in the case which could cause delayed burn or incomplete burn of the powder. Delayed fire can be dangerous but incomplete burn can cause a lodged bullet in the rifling, something that could be very dangerous if not noticed. To rectify these problems fillers are used OR bulky powders such as trail boss.

Are these fair assumptions I am making?

[44MAG#1]

Some of the "what if's" can be answered by your own experimentation. Most what you are going to get are assumptions and estimations. You are your best information gatherer through your experimentation. Will filler help in a large case with a small charge, more than likely yes. Will it always and forever help? Who knows there maybe some unforseen situation where it won't help. People deep seat handgun ammo so maybe it would work just fine in a 458 Mag case. Try it and find out using safe 45/70 data to get the answer. Will filler screw with the suppressor, you will have the test vehicle in your hands so again experiment to find out. Simple, if it does don't use it and if it doesn't use it. Slow powder can be used to keep volumn up. I've used Hodgdon 4350 in the 45/70 and the 458 mag. Then someone is going to be verbalizing on unburned powder etc. So what do you do?

[Gone_rabid]

A neighbor of mine has a bushmaster on an AR platform. To be honest I never gave this round a second thought coming from the autos. I'll look into this more, thanks for the suggestion. I imagine the ammo options are more limited but it's worth investigating.

I have a 20” 450 bushmaster prior to Remington ownership and I’m able to shoot milk caps at 100 yards with it. The bullet options are limited compared to 458. Here in the last few years my local Walmart started carrying the ammo.

[mbarasing]

I told how I feel in post 24. He needs to get with someone who can give him hands on training. But downloading straight wall cases with isnt something that it takes an advanced degree in reloading to do. Should he blindly start going wide flat out open like gangbusters, no. But with study and caution he can do it.

I have a cousin that does competition long range shooting. He anneals his brass after every shot and reloads and chronos, etc... a real perfectionist. In fact he goes thru barrels like I go thru ammo. His experience is with 6.0 CM or PRC or something like that. I spoke with him about this before posting here and he basically said the same as I've gathered here... "try it and find out."

At this point I think I'll shoot for 14" of barrel, like the encore handgun has, and then have the suppressor baffling bring the barrel length up to 20", chambered for 458 WM. After ordering I'll have a while before getting my stamp and the gun, (minimum 6 months); that'll give me time to get familiar with reloading some of the calibers I currently have. I have been wanting to reload for a while and the ammunition shortage makes me wish I had started sooner. Ordering a short barreled, lightweight, 458 WM will pretty much force me to start.

Thanks for all the brainstorming and suggestions, and keep them coming!

EDIT: my cousin shoots a 6.0 Dasher, not the above mentioned rounds

[charlie b]

When I want lower vel loads I start here
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I find a cartridge with similar case vol and start there. For example, I use .30-30 date for low level .308 loads. The data gets me in the ball park.

FWIW, I am still interested in getting a .458WM or .450Marlin barrel just to see how they would work as black powder cartridge rifles, ie, how accurate could one get with a modern rifle and black powder.

[mbarasing]

When I want lower vel loads I start here
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I find a cartridge with similar case vol and start there. For example, I use .30-30 date for low level .308 loads. The data gets me in the ball park.

FWIW, I am still interested in getting a .458WM or .450Marlin barrel just to see how they would work as black powder cartridge rifles, ie, how accurate could one get with a modern rifle and black powder.

That's interesting. I have never thought or considered using black powder in a modern cartridge. I'm going to search for this more...

[mbarasing]

I posted the wrong video above. In that video he does the reloading.

https://youtu.be/TSzcHi8QNV8

In this video he shoot the reloads.

[DocSavage]

FWIW go for the 458 WM as stated you can download the ammo and brass will be much easier to come by and in a pinch most of the standard belted mag cases can be fire formed/expanded. to 458.

[mbarasing]

When I want lower vel loads I start here
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I find a cartridge with similar case vol and start there. For example, I use .30-30 date for low level .308 loads. The data gets me in the ball park.

FWIW, I am still interested in getting a .458WM or .450Marlin barrel just to see how they would work as black powder cartridge rifles, ie, how accurate could one get with a modern rifle and black powder.

Nice resource, thanks!

The 45-70 and 450 marlin loads all have a COL of ~2.5". I sure am curious of the downsides to recessing the bullet into the 2.5" .458 wm case. My main concern, as someone who has never reloaded, is whether it would feed from the magazine into the chamber well. The edge of the brass may dig in or deform---maybe crimp inward like some .22 lr rat shot.

[mbarasing]

FWIW go for the 458 WM as stated you can download the ammo and brass will be much easier to come by and in a pinch most of the standard belted mag cases can be fire formed/expanded. to 458.

Now there's the dose of confirmation bias I needed!!! Just kidding, but seriously... if I can become a reloader then it sure seems like the best option for what I'm looking for.

[mbarasing]

"
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF YOUR LOADS
FACTORS THAT WILL INCREASE PRESSURES. SOME WILL BE DANGEROUS:

DO NOT USE more powder than recommended
DO NOT USE a heavier bullet than recommended
DO NOT SEAT the bullet deeper than normal
DO NOT USE magnum primers unless using a slow burning ball powder
Greatly oversize bullets, excessively hard bullets or cases that are too long will cause higher pressures
High temperatures or cartridges that were stored in a hot car or trunk will produce higher pressures
"

Found this on a reloading website. Says not to deep seat boolits in the brass. I'm guessing that pressures build up too much before the boolit has a chance to leave the brass. Apparently the long throat on a 458 WM (1.1" before rifling engagement) allows pressure to escape around the boolit.

Also... Has anyone used shotgun flake powders in rifle loads? what is the purpose of that?

[44MAG#1]

"
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF YOUR LOADS
FACTORS THAT WILL INCREASE PRESSURES. SOME WILL BE DANGEROUS:

DO NOT USE more powder than recommended
DO NOT USE a heavier bullet than recommended
DO NOT SEAT the bullet deeper than normal
DO NOT USE magnum primers unless using a slow burning ball powder
Greatly oversize bullets, excessively hard bullets or cases that are too long will cause higher pressures
High temperatures or cartridges that were stored in a hot car or trunk will produce higher pressures
"

Found this on a reloading website. Says not to deep seat boolits in the brass. I'm guessing that pressures build up too much before the boolit has a chance to leave the brass. Apparently the long throat on a 458 WM (1.1" before rifling engagement) allows pressure to escape around the boolit.

Also... Has anyone used shotgun flake powders in rifle loads? what is the purpose of that?

Here goes the internet confusion process developing now.

DO NOT USE more powder than recommended


DO NOT USE a heavier bullet than recommended

THAT IS GENERALLY TRUE BUT IT ISNT WRITTEN IN STONE. ANOTHER BOOK MAY GIVE DATA DIFFERENT FROM ANOTHER BOOK FOR BULLETS OF THE SAME WEIGHT BASED ON THEIR TESTING.
DO NOT SEAT the bullet deeper than normal

DONE CORRECTLY IT IS OKAY. THERE ARE SOME THAT DEEP SEAT HANDGUN LOADS. THE KEY IS REDUCING THE POWDER CHARGE AND WORKING UP. WHEN YOU DEEP SEAT YOU ARE IN ESSENCE MAKING A NEW CARTRIDGE.
DO NOT USE magnum primers unless using a slow burning ball powder
MOST SITUATIONS IF YOU REDUCE THE POWDER CHARGE FROM WHAT YOU ARE USING WITH STANDARD PRIMERS MAGNUM PRIMERS ARE GENERALLY OKAY. THE KEY IS TO REDUCE THE CHARGE WEIGHT TO SEE IF IT IS OKAY THROUGH TESTING.

Greatly oversize bullets, excessively hard bullets or cases that are too long will cause higher pressures
High temperatures or cartridges that were stored in a hot car or trunk will produce higher pressures
"

DONT USE GREATLY OVERSIZE BULLETS. BUY A MICROMETER, LEARN TO USE IT. BUY DIAL CALIPERS AND LEARN TO USE THEM FOR CASE LENGTH AND OAL.
I DONT LEAVE CARTRIDGES IN HIGH HEAT SO I DONT WORRY ABOUT IT.

I wrote those in red and capital so they would stand out. Not in a condescending, smart aleck way. Moderators please realize this.

[charlie b]

And it is good advice. Especially the deeper seating being equal to a new cartridge.

Deep seating depends on the case. Some cases taper in thickness more toward the mouth than others. If you seat a bullet in the thicker region then you may have trouble chambering the cartridge or you may 'swage' down the bullet to a smaller size.

I'd rather use a filler for some loads. There is a sticky on using fillers that will help if you decide to go that way.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

PS forgot the other issue with deep seating. The bullet has to 'jump' further to get to the rifle bore. Many bullets do not like a long jump. Better to seat to the factory OAL and use filler if you need to.

PPS many powders do not need a filler with reduced charges. Most of my .308 cast loads are near 50% capacity and they shoot very well, around MOA out to beyond 300yd.

[mbarasing]

Article from M.L. McPherson: (I just ordered a book of his and hopefully can get more info)
"Deep Seating

First, seat bullets deeper and roll a gentle crimp over the ogive or driving band instead of into the crimping groove. You will need to reduce powder charge accordingly. Several years ago, I did a piece on this for Handloader's Digest, wherein I developed a table including corrections for every bore size and charge level. Quite boring. For most readers here I can simply suggest the basis of that table and let them do their own figuring.

Measure the percentage change in usable case capacity between load with deep-seated bullet and load with regularly seated bullet, then reduce charge precisely 3/4 of that percentage – e.g., if deep seating the bullet reduces usable capacity (volume under seated bullet) from 10 grains of water to 8 grains of water, percentage reduction is 20%. If, in standard load, correct charge is 5 grains of powder, correct charge in deep-seated load will be about 4.2 grains (20% x ¾ = 15%, 15% of 5 is 0.75, 5 – 0.75 = 4.25). This correction will be very close to ideal.
For those with a chronograph, to match pressure in both loads, look for a percentage velocity difference equal to 1/5 the percentage difference in usable capacity (with both cast and swaged bullets, peak pressure is basis of accuracy). Again, consider our example, if the full-length load launches bullet at 1000 fps, shorter version will generate same peak pressure when it launches bullet at about 960 fps (1/5 x 20% = 4%, 4% of 1000 = 40, 1000 – 40 = 960). Unless volume difference becomes unusually large, perhaps >33%, these corrections will hold with sufficient accuracy for the purpose.

Advantages of deep seating are legion. First, this approach provides for significantly greater bullet pull, which retards initial bullet movement and improves shot-to-shot ignition consistency. Second, more of charge will burn before bullet base clears case mouth and subsequently barrel-cylinder gap, which makes for a cleaner load. Third, with less unused boiler room, primer will do a better job of igniting charge, which improves consistency. Fourth, charge will more nearly fill boiler room, which can significantly reduce powder position effect – see below. Finally, bullet will move further before clearing cylinder, so that more energy will have been imparted into bullet before venting begins – for various reasons, this improves ballistic uniformity."

William C. Davis, Jr. says –

“It is obviously possible also to increase the free run simply by seating the bullet more deeply in the case. That has two effects on chamber pressure, which are in opposite directions. The increased free run tends to decrease pressure, but the decrease in powder space increases the loading density, which tends to increase pressure. Which effect will predominate depends on the characteristics of the particular load and gun. In most full-charge loads, it is found that the pressure decreases at first as the bullet is seated farther away from the lands, but beyond some particular seating depth, the pressure begins to rise again as the powder space is further reduced. In revolvers, the free run through the cylinder is always relatively great, and increased seating depth always increases the chamber pressures.”

And here is a study from University of Michigan:
https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/3866/bac6873.0001.001.txt;jsessionid=C15760D5D87DDC7861 F729785E820354?sequence=4

"IX. PRELIMINARY OBSERVATIONS ON THE EFFECT OF SEATING DEPTH ON MAXIMUM
CHAMBER PRESSURE IN THE.30-06 CARTRIDGE
(R. Sinderman, K. Jacob and L. E. Brownell)
A. Reasons for Tests
There was no intent to investigate the effect of seating depth in these preliminary studies. However, the investigation of reported
crusher gage values versus pressures determined by strain gage measurements for various loads for the.30-06 cartridge inadvertently introduced the problem of seating depth. One experimental loading involved a charge of 53 grains of 1MR 4o64 powder used with the 150 gr. Remington SPCL *Receiver No. 614677, U.S. Springfield Armory was used in high-pressure
tests.


The 220 gr. Remington SPCL bullets used as a standard of reference were round-nosed and for this reason the first firings of the 150 gr. Remington SPCL bullets also used a round-nosed (30-30 type) bullet. The seating depth required to give an overall cartridge length of 3.27 inches gave only about 1/8 of an inch of bullet seat within the case. Firing these rounds produced
unexpectedly high pressures in excess of 70,000 psi absolute pressure.
An attempt was made to investigate the unusually high pressures obtained. Remington produces three different 150 gr. SPCL bullets designed for three different seating depths and we first thought that the wrong bullet was being used. The pointed version of the SPCL bullet gives a more reasonable depth of bullet seat in the case for an overall length of 3.27 inches listed by NRA.* Therefore firings loaded with IMR 4064 powder with various seating depths were made with the 150 gr. SPCL (RN) Remington bullet. However, high pressures were still observed over a range of seating depths as shown in Table II and Figure 19. Substituting the pointed SPCL bullet for the round-nosed bullet failed to give a crusher value less than 54,000 psi at any seating depth.
The Du Pont handloading tables for center-fire rifle(l) report that 52.0 gr. of 4064 powder give a crusher value of 49,700 psi. An
additional charge of 1.0 grains would be expected to raise the pressure possibly 3,000 to 5,000 psi. Other loading sources such as The Speer Handbook(l2) and P. 0. Ackley(l3) indicate that 53 grains of 4064 powder and a 150 gr. bullet is approximately maximum for the 30-06 cartridge. The pressure reported by NRA for this load appears to be low. To compare the observations on seating depth with data obtained on IMR 3031 powder and the 220 gr. Remington SPCL bullet a second series of preliminary tests were made as described in Table III and shown in Figure 20.
B. Discussion
Two opposing factors influencing the chamber pressure are believed to be involved if bullets are seated at various depths with a
given charge of powder. One effect is that of change in the volume of the case to the bullet base. Boyle's Law for gases states that if the temperature is not varied the pressure of a confined gas times its volume remains a constant. Or, stated as an equation.
PxV = C
where
P = gas pressure, psi,
V = volume of confined gas, cu. in. and
C - is a constant which depends on the mass of the gas, (grains), the temperature of the gas, and the average molecular weight of the gases produced by burning of the powder.

For a given type of powder, the temperature of the powder gas versus fraction of powder charge burned and the average molecular weight of the gases may be considered to be fairly constant. Therefore, the mass of the gas will be determined mainly by the weight of powder burned. If a given per cent of the charge is burned the larger charge will produce a greater pressure; i.e., if a charge of 40 grs. of a certain powder is used, one would expect to get a larger number for the constant than if 30 grs. of the same powder were used. Also, if one were to increase the temperature of the confined gas, the product of the pressure
and volume would increase (according to Charles' Law) thereby increasing the constant, C.
The second effect is termed gas leakage. In most rifles the bullet is allowed to travel some distance before engaging the rifling
of the barrel. This distance is termed "free-travel distance". Some gas will leak past the bullet after the rise in chamber pressure expands the neck of the cartridge case but before the bullet starts to move. In other words, some of the gases produced by the burning powder actually enter the barrel before the bullet during the period of the "free-travel" of the bullet and before it is forced tightly into the rifling. High-speed photography has been used to record this phenomenon and show that a small portion of the powder gases actually come out of the muzzle before the bullet. The egress of initial volume of gas is followed by the bullet
and then by the major volume of powder gas.

Because of the larger volume of this larger charge
it was impossible to seat the bullet more than 3/16 inch into the case
from the cannelure. Also, because of the shorter length of the bullet
it was impossible to seat the bullet out far enough to engage the rifling. However, the two opposing effects were still observed as shown in Figure 19. The chamber pressure reached a minimum value when the bullet was seated out 1/16 inch from the cannelure; but if the bullet was seated 5/16 inch out or 3/16 inch in from the cannelure a higher maximum pressure was produced. This indicates that the minimum value for maximum chamber pressure can be expected to be different for different powder charges and bullet weights. A difference of about 6,250 psi was observed between the minimum and maximum values of absolute maximum chamber pressure.
In the second series of tests a 220 gr. Remington SPCL bullet was used with a charge of 38 grs. of IMR 3031 powder. The charge of 38 grs. of IMR 3031 produces a moderate pressure when the bullet is seated at the cannelure. The effects on pressure of the extremes of seating the bullet: (1) out to the rifling, and (2) in tOethe point of powder compression were not known, therefore, a reduced load seemed advisable. The reduced charge of 38 graihs also permitted seating the bullet completely into the case without causing the powder grains to be excessively compressed or to be partially broken. Bullets were seated over a range from 1/4 inch out from the cannelure to 13/16 inch from the cannelure. Seating the bullets out 1/4 inch actually engaged the 220 gr. Remington SPCL bullets with the rifling when the bolt was closed. This seals the barrel so as to produce a minimum of gas leakage past the bullet. Consequently, essentially all of the gases produced by the burning of the powder contributed to increase of the pressure in the chamber. This tends to produce a higher maximum chamber pressure in spite of the slightly larger case volume
produced by seating 1/4 inch out from the cannelure.
At the other extreme of seating the bullets were pushed into the case 13/16 inch past the cannelure. The bullet at this seating must travel about 1-1/16 inches of "free-travel" before engaging the rifling. An increase in pressure again was noted. This is a result of Boyle's Law effect. When the bullet is seated into such an extreme the case volume is reduced to such an extent that the pressure increases in spite of the greater leakage of gas.

Intermediate seating depths produced intermediate pressures as shown in Figures 19 and 20. Figure 20 for IMR 3031 powder and 220 Remington SPCL bullets indicate that the pressure reaches a maximum at the smallest seating depth of 1/4 inch with the bullet in contact with the rifling. As the seating depth of the bullet is increased pressure decreases due to the gas leakage past the bullet into the rifle barrel.
Boyle's Law would predict that the pressure would rise because of the decrease in volume, but apparently this is overshadowed by the gas leakage past the bullet. The chamber pressure appears to reach a minimum value at a seating depth of about 1/4 inch in from the cannelure. This corresponds to a total bullet seating depth of 13/16 inch. At greater seating depths the pressure rises again. This rise in maximum chamber pressure, as stated previously, is believed to be due to the predominence of Boyle's Law effect. Though considerable gas is leaking past the bullet, gas leakage is now overshadowed by the large decrease in the case
volume to the base of the bullet. This decrease in case volume increases the maximum pressure rapidly as shown by Figure 20. The maximum pressure is over 5,000 psi greater than the minimum value produced with the bullet seated 1/4 inch in from the cannelure. On the other hand the maximum pressure increases about 10,000 psi above this minimum when the bullet is seated out so that it engages the rifling. Thus, some danger of excessive pressure is involved if seating depths are used which differ
appreciably from those used in loadings known to be safe."

[mbarasing]

And it is good advice. Especially the deeper seating being equal to a new cartridge.

Deep seating depends on the case. Some cases taper in thickness more toward the mouth than others. If you seat a bullet in the thicker region then you may have trouble chambering the cartridge or you may 'swage' down the bullet to a smaller size.

I'd rather use a filler for some loads. There is a sticky on using fillers that will help if you decide to go that way.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

PS forgot the other issue with deep seating. The bullet has to 'jump' further to get to the rifle bore. Many bullets do not like a long jump. Better to seat to the factory OAL and use filler if you need to.

PPS many powders do not need a filler with reduced charges. Most of my .308 cast loads are near 50% capacity and they shoot very well, around MOA out to beyond 300yd.

I will experiment with fillers...And thanks for the link...I found a thread on this forum mentioning using corn starch packing peanuts as filler too. cool idea. My only concern with fillers, and it may be for not, is creating problems with the suppressor. The ideal solution would be to maintain factory spec COAL--although I am finding that factory 458 WM rounds vary by a quarter inch or more in length and the chamber is designed with 1.1" jump before bullet engages rifling, from the factory! Apparently weatherby's also use a large free bore design although I have yet to tackle that subject.

[44MAG#1]

You are reaching into brain over.oad for someone that isn't into reloading. That can have a negative effect just as lack of knowledge can have. Get educated at a rate you as an individual can handle and absorb. Most of us started out being carried, then crawling, then walking and then running.
Knowledge is the same.
As you found out 458 Mags have a long throat. That us the reason zi wouldn't shoot 2 in cases. At least a deep seated bullet in a 458 Mag case will have some support to the bullet as it traverses to the throat in that extra half in longer case instead of no case support for that half inch.
If you have a Freebore that is a very close fit to the bullet the wobble won't be as bad as a hog wallow Freeborn. There again YOUR experimenting will deliver the answer to your particular case.
Let me give an example with the 45/70. Garrett Custom ammo, which is an excellent ammo deep seats a 540 grain bullet and the Hornady 500 grain Solid so both will fit the Marlin Lever action. Both bullets have a crimp groove but both are placed for the 458 Mag rifles not the 45/70. The ammo is taper crimped on the bullet sides.
Ask me how I know.

[mbarasing]

You are reaching into brain over.oad for someone that isn't into reloading. That can have a negative effect just as lack of knowledge can have. Get educated at a rate you as an individual can handle and absorb. Most of us started out being carried, then crawling, then walking and then running.
Knowledge is the same.
As you found out 458 Mags have a long throat. That us the reason zi wouldn't shoot 2 in cases. At least a deep seated bullet in a 458 Mag case will have some support to the bullet as it traverses to the throat in that extra half in longer case instead of no case support for that half inch.
If you have a Freebore that is a very close fit to the bullet the wobble won't be as bad as a hog wallow Freeborn. There again YOUR experimenting will deliver the answer to your particular case.
Let me give an example with the 45/70. Garrett Custom ammo, which is an excellent ammo deep seats a 540 grain bullet and the Hornady 500 grain Solid so both will fit the Marlin Lever action. Both bullets have a crimp groove but both are placed for the 458 Mag rifles not the 45/70. The ammo is taper crimped on the bullet sides.
Ask me how I know.

It's just how I research things... Also this gun has been on my mind for quite a while. I have no problems starting slow, but before even getting involved I want to know if the end goal and the possibilities align.

And... I am using this thread to collect the information I find so I will have single place to go to.

Also... How do you know?

[kenton]

On the SMS website you linked on the first page the description for the 77/44 says they have 8" of rifling for a 20" barrel. I'm not sure you will get much of anything out of that for a 458 win mag other than a bunch of un burnt powder in your suppressor. If you go with 14" of rifling I don't think you will get much sound moderation with a 6in suppressor.

I recommend deciding exactly what you want your gun to do. Then get in touch with the company and explaining what you want to accomplish. They will probably have a better idea how to do what you want to do using their product.

I suspect they will recommend a smaller case that can use faster burning powder, if I understand your goals correctly.

[44MAG#1]

I have shot Garrett ammo and disassembled one of each. Plus I have shot Hornady 500 gr Solids in my rifle and handgun.

[mbarasing]

On the SMS website you linked on the first page the description for the 77/44 says they have 8" of rifling for a 20" barrel. I'm not sure you will get much of anything out of that for a 458 win mag other than a bunch of un burnt powder in your suppressor. If you go with 14" of rifling I don't think you will get much sound moderation with a 6in suppressor.

I recommend deciding exactly what you want your gun to do. Then get in touch with the company and explaining what you want to accomplish. They will probably have a better idea how to do what you want to do using their product.

I suspect they will recommend a smaller case that can use faster burning powder, if I understand your goals correctly.

Good suggestion, I have done so and await feedback. As far as deciding what I want my gun to do: I want a 45-70 bolt action, or the closest thing to it, that I can shoot without ear protection. (The only reason I even want it bolt action is for the integral suppressor, otherwise I'd be fine staying with a lever.)

[mbarasing]

Ed Harris's "The Load" using Red Dot shotgun powder for reduced load rifles

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The%20Load.htm

[richhodg66]

The .458 Win Mag loads down easy. Shot mine quite a bit with Trap Door level loads of Unique out of the old Lyman manual. REcoil is nothing, but my rifle weighs about 13 pounds.

Data is here; http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

[mbarasing]

I have shot Garrett ammo and disassembled one of each. Plus I have shot Hornady 500 gr Solids in my rifle and handgun.

Your Encore... does it have a 14" barrel? How short of a barrel is too short? I've been emailing Suppressed Weapon Systems, they won't guarantee hearing safety on the 458 win mag under 28" (that's barrel and suppressor), they are also figuring off of factory loads. They also can suppress a lever BLR (no mag tube) so I'm trying to see if they can do 45-70 in a BLR, which oddly isn't currently offered by Browning.

[44MAG#1]

Your Encore... does it have a 14" barrel? How short of a barrel is too short? I've been emailing Suppressed Weapon Systems, they won't guarantee hearing safety on the 458 win mag under 28" (that's barrel and suppressor), they are also figuring off of factory loads. They also can suppress a lever BLR (no mag tube) so I'm trying to see if they can do 45-70 in a BLR, which oddly isn't currently offered by Browning.

My Encore 458 Win Mag has a 14 inch barrel. It will safely do slightly over 1900 fps with a 500 grain Hornady bullet. My 45/70 Encore has a 15 inch barrel and will do close to 1500 with a 550 grain cast. I have had it slightly over 1500 fps.

[mbarasing]

My Encore 458 Win Mag has a 14 inch barrel. It will safely do slightly over 1900 fps with a 500 grain Hornady bullet. My 45/70 Encore has a 15 inch barrel and will do close to 1500 with a 550 grain cast. I have had it slightly over 1500 fps.

Any idea how a 10 or 12" barrel would perform? The builder recommends 8" of baffle stack. I'd be satisfied with 1700 fps at 350-400 grain bullet. Maybe closer to 2000 on some 250-300 grains

[44MAG#1]

Any idea how a 10 or 12" barrel would perform? The builder recommends 8" of baffle stack. I'd be satisfied with 1700 fps at 350-400 grain bullet. Maybe closer to 2000 on some 250-300 grains

A 458 Mag will easily get that. So Will a 45/70 that is in the Encore class. An SSK Contender 14 inch barrel will get 1550 to 1600 with a 400 grain Speer bullet and 1350 or so with a 500 grain Hornady. But, that barrel has a long throat so the 500 gain Hornady can be seated out. My 45/70 Encore barrel is what I call a 'No throat" barrel. But the Encore is stronger than the Contender.
I almost never piddled with light bullets. I did shoot some 300 grains Barnes bullets in the 458 and got substantially over 2000 fps

[44MAG#1]

MBARASING,

Sent you a PM

[mbarasing]

The .458 Win Mag loads down easy. Shot mine quite a bit with Trap Door level loads of Unique out of the old Lyman manual. REcoil is nothing, but my rifle weighs about 13 pounds.

Data is here; http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

Thanks for the rresource! Somehow I missed it last night.

[Jim22]

Before I put away what has beeen working for me and spending a bunch of moolah on new guns, reloading equipment, and suppressors I would find someone who has a few suppressors I can try. My experience is limited but what I do know is that suppressors are not vrey effective on supersonic rounds like the .243, .30-30, or the Creedmoor. Even with the best suppressors these cartridges still produce more than 100 dB of noise. That will still give you hearing damage. There are good reasons why subsonic rounds like a 200 gr. .300 BLK were developed. They don't create the sonic boom "Crack".

[mbarasing]

Before I put away what has beeen working for me and spending a bunch of moolah on new guns, reloading equipment, and suppressors I would find someone who has a few suppressors I can try. My experience is limited but what I do know is that suppressors are not vrey effective on supersonic rounds like the .243, .30-30, or the Creedmoor. Even with the best suppressors these cartridges still produce more than 100 dB of noise. That will still give you hearing damage. There are good reasons why subsonic rounds like a 200 gr. .300 BLK were developed. They don't create the sonic boom "Crack".

Good advise. I have an integrally suppressed 300 blk on an AR. I have used a twist on for a 6.5 CM for predator hunting and it has been great... but it throws the balance off and the length is awkward getting in and out of truck, or even climbing on top of truck with it. Your right in that none of them whisper. And even with subsonic 300 blk all the pigs run once you shoot one anyway. But I've never used ear protection with a suppressor even with supers and I've never had my ears ring. Probably not the best test...but the ear ring test is enough for me.

It's so nice when everyone one your team for a predator competition has a silencer... you can all talk and BS and then listen for critters answering calls and still shoot at anytime.

And over the years I believe I have tried every passive and powered ear protection available...with and without amplifiers and so on. Nothing has been better than a suppressed weapon for me so far

So now I want to take the suppressors out of the shooting range and fixed position predator calling or target practice world and put it on what I shoot most often with...the truck gun, the gun I throw in the boat when I head down river, the gun that is grabbed anytime for anything. The gun I can open up with when the pigs run by even if my kids are in the truck helping me haul hay. Get it?

My cousin doesn't get it and that's OK... he uses a twist on for long range competitive shooting. He likes being able to change barrels out or upgrade them without getting a new stamp. All his guns are already half a mile long and heavy as !!!! anyway. They have nice hardcases to relax in until the next use, my truck gun has no case. That's his world...mine is different.

[pacomdiver]

been browsing this thread, i havent seen a suggestion of building a 458 socom yet, its a big 45 cal bullet with knockdown power and can be easily suppressed without any fillers and there have been multiple builds off rem 700 actions283916283918
and even integral suppressor283921 with the McCree chassis, it should be abt 26 to 28 inches folded, that plenty short for a truck gun

a 250g bullet at 2150fps is carrying 2565 ft lbs of torque and
a 600g bullet at 1000 fps is still carrying 1336 ft lbs of torque, pretty much a flying cinder block

[ulav8r]

Torque definitions: n. The measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion or rotation about an axis, equal to the product of the force vector and the radius vector from the axis of
rotation to the point of application of the force; the moment of a force.
n. A turning or twisting force.

The torque of a bullet has no practical effect. The energy measured in foot pounds does have effects on impact with a target.

[mbarasing]

Torque definitions: n. The measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion or rotation about an axis, equal to the product of the force vector and the radius vector from the axis of
rotation to the point of application of the force; the moment of a force.
n. A turning or twisting force.

The torque of a bullet has no practical effect. The energy measured in foot pounds does have effects on impact with a target.

I once shot a shoat and it flipped backwards... does that count?

Pacomdiver: I did look into the 458 socom and it does interest me, however if the round doesn't take off how would I get more brass. There isn't much on the shelves now of course, but even when fully stocked I haven't seen 458 Socom ammo out here in the sticks. That is my concern with the 450 Marlin too. I have decided to go wildcat and have the gun built as a 458x2 American (will actually be a little longer, I think a 450 Marlin reamer will be used but stopped short to allow the use of standard belted brass.) At least with this wildcat I could probably find all the brass I'd ever need under deer blinds.

[mbarasing]

https://www.ch4d.com/

saving this here for latter

[pacomdiver]

theres always guys selling new or used brass on gunbroker or ar15.com. ive found emptys at the 2 ranges i belong to, almost enough to tempt me to build a 700 to use them.

[mbarasing]

theres always guys selling new or used brass on gunbroker or ar15.com. ive found emptys at the 2 ranges i belong to, almost enough to tempt me to build a 700 to use them.

If I start seeing the 458 SOCOM more around here maybe I'd build one... On an AR though

[mbarasing]

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it.

@Tatume: I have read Mathews' book but must have missed that part. I haven't read thru all the letters yet, so perhaps it's in there. Good read, thank you.

[mbarasing]

284336

The proposed reamer specs for the build

[Artpro]

Try loading the 458WM with Trailboss powder

[JFE]

I have decided to go wildcat and have the gun built as a 458x2 American (will actually be a little longer, I think a 450 Marlin reamer will be used but stopped short to allow the use of standard belted brass.) At least with this wildcat I could probably find all the brass I'd ever need under deer blinds.

I think this is a good option. If you use a 450 Marlin reamer and set headspace using a regular magnum gauge you will never have any case shortages. The capacity is adequate for your application and the 450 Marlin has a well designed throat. You can use inexpensive 450 Marlin dies and of course the wide range of 458 pills and moulds that are available. You just need to make sure the twist rate you select is fast enough to stabilise long pills at subsonic speeds. If you base it in a short action bolt gun you can load to a min of 2.8” which offers a lot of loading flexibility.

I’m thinking the old 458 Gould design (about 350 gr HP) would be ideal for your application.

[mbarasing]

Took 14 months to get stamps and couple more to get built, but here they are.

A blue 6.5 creedmoor, and
a tan .458 x 2" American

305899

305900

And here is where all the magic happens:

305901

I'm heading out hunting soon but this winter I'll be back here to start reloading and get more advice. I bought a setup and dies but haven't begun yet.

Hope you like the pics.