Is a .357mag needed? Why not a .38sp?

[Cargo]

Is .357 really needed if you have a .38 with 358429 and 358156 bullets running +P velocities? Primary uses would be range, woods and SD.

[Outpost75]

I seldom use full-charge .357s. If a #358429 Keith at 1000 fps won't do it I go straight to a .44 Mag. or .30-'06!

[Cargo]

I seldom use full-charge .357s. If a #358429 Keith at 1000 fps won't do it I go straight to a .44 Mag. or .30-'06!

Or a 12g slug, that was kind of what I was thinking but as I don't have a lot of shooting friends I wanted to get some opinions.

[Dan Cash]

Is .357 really needed if you have a .38 with 358429 and 358156 bullets running +P velocities? Primary uses would be range, woods and SD.

Depends upon what else walks in your woods and what you might be self defending against. For the last 2 events, I would prefer all the steam it can give me.

[Cargo]

Depends upon what else walks in your woods and what you might be self defending against. For the last 2 events, I would prefer all the steam it can give me.
In your neck of the woods I can understand your viewpoint on that. The most dangerous things we have in our woods are hogs, gators, snakes and criminals.

[Tim357]

I believe a 158 gr bullet at around 1100 fps to be about the ideal load for 98% of what a handgun may be called upon to do.

[358429]

The real advantage of 357 magnum is when assembling 155 grain deep hollow pointed plain base 358429 powdercoated bullets cast from 10-1 alloy, over 15.5 grains of Winchester 296. They must be doing over 1000 feet per second from my J frame with two inch barrel.

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[str8wal]

I feel the 38+P is adequate for the vast majority of situations, excluding perhaps bears. For the woods I usually up it to 45 Colt tier 2 or better. I don't even own a 357 anymore.

[Earlwb]

I agree in that the .38 Special +P is adequate for most scenarios.

[gnostic]

I feel way more confident with a max load of 296 and a 125 grain JHP in my model 19, 28 or 686. The 38 special is great for target shooting and lead 158 grain cast bullets allow me to hold at 6:00 while full power .357's land lower at point of sight. For real world handgun use the .357 is my go to revolver...

[JimB..]

That bullet was way to effective at stopping the threat...said no man ever.

[megasupermagnum]

+P 38 special a 358429 is topped out around 900 fps maybe 950 fps.

A 357 magnum with a 358429 is topped out around 1350 fps, maybe 1400 fps, especially if you load to CIP standards

+P38 special with a 200 grain bullet is topped out around 700 fps

357 magnum with a 200 grain bullet is topped out around 1250 fps

I've even taken the 357 magnum as far as a 220 grain at a tick under 1200 fps.

Those are numbers you can see in your normal hunting revolvers with 4"-6" barrels.

Those are the raw numbers, what you need depends on purpose. I Could take a 357 mag with a round nose 200 gr, and send it through a deer at 1200+ fps with disappointing results. I could also take a 38 special with the 358429 HP at 950 fps, and it would likely prove a decent deer load.

On the other hand I could take a 38 special 358429 solid at 900 fps, and most wouldn't shoot a big game animal like an elk with that due to lackluster wound, although the penetration should be adequate. Compare that to a 357 magnum with a 200 gr wide flat nose hauling 1200+ fps, and you have a round very capable of hunting big game.

Ultimately a 357 magnum can buy you about 500 extra fps if you want it. That is a LOT, and it can be seen in terms of penetration, or wound, or just about any other metric. At least with hunting handguns. A 357 magnum still has a lot more velocity in a sub 2" barrel, but there is a lot of bark with less bite.

[contender1]

I was asked a similar question in a shooting class I taught last weekend. Here's my reply.

"Why does an automobile need 300, 400, or even 500 horsepower? It's main purpose is to transport people from point A to point B. HOWEVER,, often, the load being transported is heavier than "normal" people transporting. OR, more importantly, sometimes you need horsepower to be able to get yourself away from a potentially dangerous wreck."

So, a 38 spl, loaded with whatever bullet & XYZ powder may be perfectly fine for most stuff,, you may find the NEED for more power & that's where having it as an OPTION will be a relief. JMO.

[1Papalote]

The magnum gives options. Download the 357 to 38 sp or use it at top end. Plus you now have the ability to do use 2 different cartridges. So yes, you need one...... and a levergun in 357.

[Lefty Red]

I feel 38spec 158gr SPs or 148gr WCs are great for self defense of two legged threats. Mostly due to the controllable in my j frames and the distance if I did have an threat come into my personal space.

But with four legged threats, only possible way for an instant stop is a CNS shot or a major disruption to the skeletal system. Or punch a hole all the way through and wait for the blood to be pumped out. It might be chewing on you head until the last, so I would want something with more weight, power, and expansion if possible. Cause a cougar or pit doesn’t know it should stop and lay down and die once it’s been shot. So I want a 357mag at least, my 10mm or 41mag usually.

I load most of my 357s to be about 38+p loadings anyways. That way I can keep my 38s loaded with just WCs and not worry about it.

[dannyd]

I never load a full house 357 magnum or anything close, us mostly target load 38 special for everything.

One test I did today was: milled out primer pockets of 38 special brass for large rifle primers. Got the best standard deviation ever with the load been using for 35 years.

TC Encore rifle 6 ft/s
TC contender pistol 9 ft/s
GP100 6 in 13 ft/s

[Bigslug]

The original intent of the 1/10th of an inch longer .357 case was to take advantage of Keith's hotter .38 loadings in stronger, modern handguns with a cartridge that would not fit into and damage the older, weaker, tail-end-of-blackpowder-era revolvers.

Obviously, that extra 1/10th inch gives us more room to take those hot loads even further. Given that we can greatly manipulate how a bullet penetrates or expands based on bullet design and alloy or jacket composition, and that even hot .357's won't really be fast enough to make much of an enlarged, rifle-like permanent cavity by means of sufficiently rapid hydrostatic displacement, I think the .357's advantage is mostly going to be in flattening trajectory. I don't think anything shot with a 175 grain non-expanding flat point would be able to tell what case and load data it was fired with.

[Scrounge]

In your neck of the woods I can understand your viewpoint on that. The most dangerous things we have in our woods are hogs, gators, snakes and criminals.

I'm pretty sure for hogs and gators, I'd want at least .357 mag loads, and wouldn't turn down something throwing 12g slugs. A .22LR will work on most critters IF placed correctly. A 30mm cannon shell from a GAU-8 won't do the job if you miss. If you can't shoot it accurately, for whatever reason, it won't matter what you use. Pick what you can handle and shoot accurately, and then as powerful as you can manage without decreasing your accuracy. I like the .45acp, personally, but I know a guy who emptied a magazine from the GI 45 he was carrying as a duty weapon into a German wild boar with no noticeable effect. It ran him up a tree, and tore his guard dog to shreds. I wouldn't bet on a feral pig being any less tough than that boar.

[358429]

Is it okay that I am curious where the boar was struck? If he struck the mad boar 7 times in the head and was still charging, I'd want a gatling gun in 454 casull instead!

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[358429]

A 38 special loading I really like is 3 grains red dot with 172 grain keith bullet in 38 brass. It's a light easy load for target. Shooting at the small orange plastic thing that looks like a caltrop, rolls and jumps when you strike it. Recoil and report are minimal and hits are easy even at some distance. I would not hunt boar with this load, however the boar would not be safe from me, if that is all I had.

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[Winger Ed.]

I shoot a lot of .38s in .357s too.
For hunting, self defense, I'll gas a few up to full power, but mostly load to .38 speeds.

It reminds me of the 'Happy Days' episode where Al was commenting on Fonzie's recent tune up of their school bus.

"You may never need a school bus to go from zero to sixty in three seconds, but it's nice to know you can".

[358429]

Probably of higher importance is skill in loading the cylinder, shooting fast and accurate and reloading the gun quickly under stress and revolvers are slow, way slow unless you are Jerry Michulek. Then you are fast, so very fast! Hey Cargo Are you deciding what ammunition to use for a purpose, or deciding on a gun purchase? If the latter I strongly recomend 357 Mag as an excellent cartridge, especially if you handload or have interest in it.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Used to be that a .38 was a .38 and a .357 was much more, but with today's improved bullets and loadings the gap has narrowed and the usefulness of each overlaps. I believe that a properly loaded .38 Spec. will cover most two-legged situations, but for potentially dangerous game I'd still want the .357.

DG

[rintinglen]

I shoot about 15 38's for every one .357 round I fire. But my bedside S&W is loaded with .357's, because I once had a wrestling match with a suspect who had been shot with a .38, and I am too old to go through that again. Likewise, if I am hiking in bear country, I carry a .357 loaded with 358-429's loaded to the gills, unless there might be a grizzly in the offing. In which case, I carry a 44 Magnum.

Ultimately, the most powerful gun you can master, is the gun you should carry if you know you are going in harms way. There is no substitute for horsepower, save maybe accuracy, but the power remains constant, while the ability to deliver an accurate shot diminishes as the pucker factor increases.

[Char-Gar]

In Texas, a properly loaded 38 Special will do the job. However with a 357 Mag, you also have a 38 Special and some other options. I feel the same about the 44 Mag. I don 't load them much over a 44 Spl, but I can if I want to.

[DougGuy]

The original intent of the 1/10th of an inch longer .357 case was to take advantage of Keith's hotter .38 loadings in stronger, modern handguns with a cartridge that would not fit into and damage the older, weaker, tail-end-of-blackpowder-era revolvers.

^^ This... The OP asks if a 38 Spl is loaded to xxx number of ft lbs of energy, do we need a 357? the answer would lie in the scenario surrounding the requirements of the boolit. As previously stated, for most purposes, the +P 38 is fine.

I would venture to say that the 357 is needed when you need a load that CANNOT be assembled and fired safely with 38 Spl components.

[Cargo]

Hey Cargo Are you deciding what ammunition to use for a purpose, or deciding on a gun purchase?


Alright, I'm busted. My son keeps trying to requisition my GP100 and currently in my area a sorely beat up .357 starts around $850-900. I thought maybe a Model 10 or similar could fill the bill for a while.

I normally keep .38+p sjhp's in my revolvers around the house. They are carried but not on a regular basis and I do enjoy a healthy helping of 2400 in my magnum cases.

[Krag 1901]

A lot depends on the gun you use. I favor my Colt Police Positive 4th Gen 4" for a nightstand gun. Smooth and accurate, 110 or 125 gr Hps will deter most two legged varmints at 10-30 feet. Light and handy. but my Colt '357" the precursor to the Python, is almost as smooth and a heck of a lot heavier for a** kicking loads.

I just loaded some 125 HPs and 158 gr Soft points at almost +P vel's to try to duplicate the Rem 125 +P load which I found to be very accurate in my D frame Colts. I used up the last of my H-4227 powder to load near max.

[dannyd]

I’m a GP100 and Blackhawk guy. Basically the only thing I load for is 38 special 357 magnum; cast about 15 different bullets for them.

[Scrounge]

Is it okay that I am curious where the boar was struck? If he struck the mad boar 7 times in the head and was still charging, I'd want a gatling gun in 454 casull instead!

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Sure it's OK. I'm just glad I heard the story a decade or so after it happened. He had no idea where he hit it. It's possible he missed every round. It's possible he hit the head every time. Once the boar knew he wasn't coming down from that tree, several hours later, it wandered off. He didn't come down from the tree until his relief showed up. I certainly can't blame him.

I know when my dad slaughtered a hog he used a 250-3000 Savage to do the job. NO doubt about penetration and stopping power with the barrel resting against their head when he fired.

I participated in a wild hog hunt in the farming region around Adana, Turkey, back in the early 80's. The hunters were all using 12ga. Shotguns with punkin' ball slugs. One of the hogs was hit in the spine just back of the shoulders. His back legs stopped working, but he still charged us with his front legs. Was not real fast, but wasn't gonna stop until he died. Took a couple of those punkin' balls in the head to stop him.

Yes, I think a 20mm (minimum) Gatling would be about right.

Bill

[Scrounge]

I shoot a lot of .38s in .357s too.
For hunting, self defense, I'll gas a few up to full power, but mostly load to .38 speeds.

It reminds me of the 'Happy Days' episode where Al was commenting on Fonzie's recent tune up of their school bus.

"You may never need a school bus to go from zero to sixty in three seconds, but it's nice to know you can".

Yes, Sir. Exactly right.

[megasupermagnum]

Obviously, that extra 1/10th inch gives us more room to take those hot loads even further. Given that we can greatly manipulate how a bullet penetrates or expands based on bullet design and alloy or jacket composition, and that even hot .357's won't really be fast enough to make much of an enlarged, rifle-like permanent cavity by means of sufficiently rapid hydrostatic displacement, I think the .357's advantage is mostly going to be in flattening trajectory. I don't think anything shot with a 175 grain non-expanding flat point would be able to tell what case and load data it was fired with.

It never stops amazing me how someone can just shrug off 500 extra fps as trivial, on a round that was only doing 900 fps to begin with.

[downzero]

It never stops amazing me how someone can just shrug off 500 extra fps as trivial, on a round that was only doing 900 fps to begin with.

It's as if the pressure limit doubling had no bearing on the output!

It ain't close, folks. .357 Magnum is a LOT more powerful than any book 38 Special load. When 357 Magnum was introduced, it was the most powerful handgun cartridge that existed at that time. It's still the standard by which many are judged.

[Golfswithwolves]

Because I found a nice S&W Heavy Duty and have been having fun loading for it and shooting it, I suggest that the .38/44 might be a great compromise between the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum. This chambering in a K frame revolver would be pretty cool!

[USSR]

So, a 38 spl, loaded with whatever bullet & XYZ powder may be perfectly fine for most stuff,, you may find the NEED for more power & that's where... a .44 or .45 is needed. I don't reach for added velocity, just added diameter. Just MHO.

Don

[Win94ae]

If I'm carrying, it is because I'd be expecting trouble, so I'd go full power 357mag.

I see a lot of mentions of "Keith bullets", and low velocities... Kieth would be loading those to ludicrous speeds; and while in 38 special cases.

[ddixie884]

Because I found a nice S&W Heavy Duty and have been having fun loading for it and shooting it, I suggest that the .38/44 might be a great compromise between the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum. This chambering in a K frame revolver would be pretty cool!

Yes it is called a Combat Magnum. Chambered in .357 Magnum and designed for a limited number of full .357s and mostly used with Mid range Magnums and .38s.......

[dougader]

38 Spl is fine for paper punching and rolling rabbits. For SD it's 357.

If I need more than that, I go up in caliber.

[wgg]

I bought a model S&W 10-8 a couple of years ago because I had never had one. I have several 357 revolvers. I find I carry the model 10 or a model 15 mainly with plus p handloads. I killed 3 hogs last year with those two because thats what I had on me. My dogs had bayed the hogs so I was not stopping a charge. My cast hp boolits run 160 grains. A benefit to the 38 plus p is that my ears don't ring after shooting. I wear hearing protection but sometimes it is not available for whatever reason. Take a look at the Hodgdon loads for 38 plus p. It's not a weak sister.

[Gray Fox]

The majority of my .357s are N frames, with the two newest being a 4" and a 5" 8-shot stainless. In them I usually carry a handload with Ranch Dog's 175 grain RNFP which also runs well in my Rossi '92. If I needed more horesepower I would carry either a 4" 629 Mountain Gun or my 4" 25-5 in .45 Colt at about the same carry weight. I have one J frame .357 2" hammerless, but I normally carry factory Rem 110 grain +Ps in it and my lightweitht hammerless, too. Factory 158 grain jacketed HPs are no joy in the 2" but a 158 grain Lee RNFP at about 950 fps might be manageable in a .357 case. GF

[Golfswithwolves]

Yes it is called a Combat Magnum. Chambered in .357 Magnum and designed for a limited number of full .357s and mostly used with Mid range Magnums and .38s.......

Mr. ddixie884- You have it right! Although I would prefer the .38 chambering to allow the use of the .38/44 loads without any problems with the "crud ring". I have had less success with the moderate loads for the .357 Magnum brass.

[gwpercle]

I seldom use full-charge .357s. If a #358429 Keith at 1000 fps won't do it I go straight to a .44 Mag. or .30-'06!

Same here ...except my "go to" is a 41 magnum (avatar) .
My everyday is an AirWeight 38 Special ... Stowed in a pocket .
With +P , standard velocity or even 148 gr. Target WC loads , I feel well armed .
The model 58 in 41 magnum is my nightstand or open carry revolver .
Gary

[CoolHandMoss]

The real question is "why not a .357?" The .38 may well be enough for your needs but what do you have to gain from sacrificing the added energy from the .357. are you trying to carry a lighter package? Is recoil a problem? Are you shooting so much that you are trying to save powder to keep costs down? Do you have a bunch of .38 brass and you are trying to talk yourself out of buying .357 brass? The numbers only get you but so far in determining if .38 is enough. Something is always better than nothing but why skimp without a good reason? Personally I prefer to load lighter .357 rounds for high volume range shooting than to load .38. I load some .38 but I honestly don't know why.

[charlie b]

A common discussion with predictable outcome.

What will matter more is where you place the bullet. Both the .38spl and .357 will penetrate enough to do the job. Pick the right load and carry it.

Here is some helpful info. Scroll down for the .357

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

[megasupermagnum]

A common discussion with predictable outcome.

What will matter more is where you place the bullet. Both the .38spl and .357 will penetrate enough to do the job. Pick the right load and carry it.

Here is some helpful info. Scroll down for the .357

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Do they though? Just about everything on that list of 38 special either barely penetrates to their minimum, or fails to expand and leaves a pinhole. Of course that penetration minimum is for humans, which this discussion makes no request that it has to be about self defense against humans. The 158 gr SWC-HP is about the best performing bullet in the group. Unfortunately it appears all those factory loads fail to expand from a 2" barrel. Goes to show what 50 fps will do when you are borderline. I will dare to say that unexpanded SWC at 800 fps made as big of a hole as a full wadcutter at just over 700 fps, and the SWC penetrated way farther.

The 357 magnum on the other hand, just about everything except the odd rounds like the 100 and 110 grain bullets did really well. None of them are even particularly strong rounds. The best probably the 158gr XTP. Even from a 2" barrel, there's no reason you can't deer hunt with that. 22" of penetration from a 2" snub, and huge wound channels. Then the 4" barrel penetrates even farther, and with even larger wound channels. You can't get that from any 38 special.

I fully understand the thinking of big and slow. It is a valid way to go. That doesn't make them more powerful, that is utter nonsense. A 45 acp is not more powerful than a 357 magnum, just because it has a bigger number in the name. The big and slow calibers like 45 acp, 44 special, and 45 colt are nice, easy to reload cartridges, and they produce consistent results on game. They are not, and never have been powerhouses.

45 Colt came out about 1873ish. It served it's role very well, but was not the most powerful handgun round of the time. The 357 magnum came out in 1934, and it was the most powerful handgun cartridge commercially released. If it weren't for Elmer Keith running the 44 special on redline, essentially a 44 magnum, it would have been the most powerful handgun cartridge outright. After the 357's introduction, it was quickly used to hunt every big game animal on the continent with total success.

This sums up the 357 magnum as well as I've ever seen. The quote at the bottom unfortunately applies to a gaining number to those who apparently have not used them to hunt.

When it came out it was tested against the elements by several well noted people. What follows are some of those examples.
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

[ddixie884]

Mr. ddixie884- You have it right! Although I would prefer the .38 chambering to allow the use of the .38/44 loads without any problems with the "crud ring". I have had less success with the moderate loads for the .357 Magnum brass.

I'm afraid I have short-cutted this with a work around for my own use. I use my 15-2 and 15-3 as my compact .38-44s. I load them from 1,000 to 1,150 with 160gr swc and keep an eye on b/c gap and head space and locking bolts. I shoot a lot of 900fps+ for utility and practice and often load with more than one kind of ammo in a cylinder full. I've usually got 3 or 4 different loadings in my pick-up........

[charlie b]

Yes, the .357 is suitable for much more than self defense (which is why I carry one in the field). But, the .38spl will do for personal defense nicely.

Defensive shooting is about hitting a critical part of the anatomy. That .357 can expand all you want, but, if it is shot at something other than the CNS, then all that just means they might bleed out after you are killed.

Unfortunately there is little real evidence to show differences between different penetrations, ie, how much difference is there in a lung shot when using expanding ammo vs non-expanding on a person. Why? People respond differently to being shot if not hit in the CNS. Some can carry on their task while others will fall down, even if shot in the leg with a .22lr. If you want to carry it to the extreme, read some Medal of Honor citations.

I can also say that even when hit with a rifle that shreds the lungs, a large animal (deer) can still run a good distance. Even a heart shot is not immediately incapacitating. So, yes, I can shoot large game with a .357, but, they may still be able to hurt me unless I hit them in the right place.

[FergusonTO35]

In my mind, the .357 is at it's best in a carbine such as the Marlin 1894. This cartridge really punches above it's weight class when you give it more barrel and an appropriate boolit and powder. All my centerfire wheelguns are .38's, as I am honest in admitting I can't shoot a .357 well from a handgun. With the .38 I can shoot with good accuracy and quick follow up shots.

[smkummer]

My truck gun is a finish challenged Colt trooper MKIII 4” .357. Loaded with 357. If someone where to hide behind a car door or the rear part of a car and believe they had cover, they would learn the hard way that isn’t cover if the opponent has a .357.

[Forrest r]

I'm using a 170gr bullet in my snubnosed sd/ccw 357. It's only going 1200fps+, if I could get that bullet to go 1300fps+ in that revolver I would.

Why bring 2 beers to the party when you have a 6-pack.

[atr]

OK, +P is a somewhat more powerful round. But how much more powerful?
I have heard that +P means 10% more powerful than the maximum listed loading. Can anyone clarify just how much more powerful +P is?
thanks
atr

[Tim357]

OK, +P is a somewhat more powerful round. But how much more powerful?
I have heard that +P means 10% more powerful than the maximum listed loading. Can anyone clarify just how much more powerful +P is?
thanks
atr
SAAMI max specs are 35K psi for .357, and 20K for .38Spl+P, and 17K psi for std .38 Spl. 38/44 loads aren't listed by SAAMI, so you'd be on your own. Generally from what I've found is that 38/44 are around 25K.

[Texas by God]

I know I'm weird, but I really like the .38 Special over the .357magnum. I've owned a bunch of both, even killed a deer with a .357 revolver- but I've killed a big feral sow with a .38 Special as well. For the three uses that the OP laid out; the .38 will do just fine.
The .41 Remington is the only magnum handgun round that I like.
I told you about the weird part, right?

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[robertbank]

I feel way more confident with a max load of 296 and a 125 grain JHP in my model 19, 28 or 686. The 38 special is great for target shooting and lead 158 grain cast bullets allow me to hold at 6:00 while full power .357's land lower at point of sight. For real world handgun use the .357 is my go to revolver...

Interesting. I just loaded some 125 JHP using 17.5gr of 2400. Out of my 4.2" GP-100 they were running 1465fps on average. You would not want to shoot them all day long but six with a reload if needed would not be unreasonable. I know I would not want to be in front of them.

Take Care

Bob

[megasupermagnum]

I know I'm weird, but I really like the .38 Special over the .357magnum. I've owned a bunch of both, even killed a deer with a .357 revolver- but I've killed a big feral sow with a .38 Special as well. For the three uses that the OP laid out; the .38 will do just fine.
The .41 Remington is the only magnum handgun round that I like.
I told you about the weird part, right?

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

It's only weird if you haven't owned them all. 327 federal magnum, 357 remington magnum, 41 remington magnum, 44 remington magnum. I suppose you could add 480 Ruger to the spectrum too, which I don't have yet. I like specials, and now and again the super hotrods like the 454 Casull are fun, but the strong magnums are my sweet spot. I like every one of them.

[Hodagtrapper]

The .38 special cartridge is fine for self defense but for hunting the .357 is a better choice IMO. Depending on the day of the week I may have a 10mm or .45 LC holstered too.

Chris

[atr]

and 20K for .38Spl+P, and 17K psi for std .38 Spl.

thanks Tim357......that is a 17.65% increase over standard load
atr

[dverna]

I know I'm weird, but I really like the .38 Special over the .357magnum. I've owned a bunch of both, even killed a deer with a .357 revolver- but I've killed a big feral sow with a .38 Special as well. For the three uses that the OP laid out; the .38 will do just fine.
The .41 Remington is the only magnum handgun round that I like.
I told you about the weird part, right?

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

I guess I am weird too. The .357 is just a bit much for me out of pistol if I want to shoot over 100 rounds at a time.

[ddixie884]

Remember too, that +P is plus pressure. Different powders give different FPS for the same pressure. Also Ammo companies sell you +P ammo that gives you less than 18,000 pounds of pressure, not 19,800psi. If it gives anything over 17,000psi it is +P.
Rumor has it that the 147gr +P+ Federals were only marginally over +P. Boutique loaders load a lot closer to max pressure.

Don't get me wrong, I like everything sbout a .357 Magnum except the High pitched crack and muzzle blast. That is why I had my first .41spl built........

[usedtobeyoung]

I like the versatility possible out if 357 mag. And 38 special.

[Soundguy]

Depends upon what else walks in your woods and what you might be self defending against. For the last 2 events, I would prefer all the steam it can give me.

Agreed. For bear, 357 mag gives you 'ok' odds. 38sp? Good luck.... Lots of necropsies find 9mm slugs in healed tissue in bears... So I'd want more than 9mm... Thus..357 and up

[megasupermagnum]

Agreed. For bear, 357 mag gives you 'ok' odds. 38sp? Good luck.... Lots of necropsies find 9mm slugs in healed tissue in bears... So I'd want more than 9mm... Thus..357 and up

Show me one honest case where someone found a 9mm bullet healed into a bear. Not Bubba's, best friends, uncle. Show me one first hand case of a bullet of any kind healed in a bear.

[Soundguy]

Well I never thought I had to record them but I'll look around to find the last story I read was a hiker that was killed by a bear and they found him partially eaten when Park Rangers kill the bear and did a necropsy on it it had multiple bullets in it that were Old Wounds

[Groo]

Groo here
Let us all remember that the JHP or cast equal's main requirement is NOT to overpenatrate!!!!!!!!!
So the FBI spec [Fxxxing Baxxbusting Incompance] Has little to do with a vast majority of our shooting..
After looking at the specs [compairing to known fight stoppers] ,, I just pitched the hole thing...
It has as much relation to the real world as shooting water jugs, Ice ,clear jell or the old standard == clear pine boards....
As to the snub if the load is a lighter one [like many ones now a days] if you want penatration ,you DON'T want it to expand.
A smaller hole is better than NO hole....

[robertbank]

We all know of the elderly First Nation lady who, from close range, shot the largest recorded inland Grizzly bear with a .22lr. She shot the bear in the ear cavity. The event took place in Northern Alberta in the Slave Lake in the 50". That aside, IMHO carrying a 38spl in the woods for protection where wildlife is one of your concerns would be foolish, just saying. The .357Mag is the minimum caliber in BC for our Wilderness Permit. A hopped up 38spl is not listed nor would it be accepted.

If I remember correctly the .357mag was the #1 one shot man stopper listed by the FBI was it not?

Take Care

Bob

[smkummer]

Under certain light conditions, a .357 produces a ball of flame. Sometimes even if the first shot doesn’t hit or is non lethal, the disagreement is resolved in favor of whoever holds the “cannon”. At one time, the 125 grain JHP had the most one shot stops in LEO use.

[charlie b]

The FBI specs are not meaningless. They brought a LOT of attention to the issues that many HP rounds had back then, ie, when fired through thick clothing the HP clogged up and they did not expand. After the FBI specs were decided on the ammo mfgs revamped most of their bullets to perform better.

"In the old days", the 125gn .357mag was the minimum used by many state police. The SIG .357 was developed to duplicate that performance in a semi-auto and they had a lot of sales to law organizations because of it. Now days, due to bullet mfgs doing a lot more testing, even the 9mm performs well enough to satisfy those LEO's.

[farmbif]

lately ive been shooting a lot of 357 mag with 38156 with 17 grains 300mp in both the old Rossi 92 and in wheel guns, the Rossi is real picky as to what feed smoothly in it, I was using a bunch of 125 grain bullets from mp mold with 8.5 grains be86, but the old ideal design 156 just works great in whatever I shoot it in and its close to full power load, if I'm gonna shoot at something living I want to be sure its going down. and might as well practice with the same load.
now in my lend lease smith and Wesson it gets fed 38 spa with 5 grains be86 for the 125 the special sure doesn't need a gas check.
crazy thing is ive got several other molds for 38/357 and the only other one that's interesting is mp360640

[dougader]

Why not drop a step in caliber to 32? Honestly, for most chores in town or woodswalking in this area a 32 H&R mag will work just fine.

If six 123 grain Mihec hps or six 100 grain xtp's won't handle the situation I jump up to 44 Spl, 45 Colt or 480 Ruger...

[dverna]

Why not drop a step in caliber to 32? Honestly, for most chores in town or woodswalking in this area a 32 H&R mag will work just fine.

If six 123 grain Mihec hps or six 100 grain xtp's won't handle the situation I jump up to 44 Spl, 45 Colt or 480 Ruger...

In my case, I have three rifles and four pistols in .38/.357. I have all the molds I need and plenty of cheap .38 brass. Nothing wrong with .32’s but nothing to warrant adding it. All my guns will take .357 pressure so I use .38 cases and load to whatever level I want.

In any case, I can plink with .32 level loads if I so desire, but a .32 will not match a .357....so it has limitations.

[ddixie884]

If it is the new Unique, I wouldn't start at over 5.5 and 5 would probably be better. It seems a little faster than older bottles. Probably just normal variance lot to lot......

Sorry bout that I was answering a post that has since been deleted.......

[gunther]

A friend took several E Ky deer out his back door with a Lyman 358477 and 4 grains of Red Dot. He did the same with an Old Army. If you can shoot.....

[Scrounge]

A friend took several E Ky deer out his back door with a Lyman 358477 and 4 grains of Red Dot. He did the same with an Old Army. If you can shoot.....

I don't believe deer are as tough as bears or the 2-legged home invaders. They almost never wear body armor, either. If I have to shoot a bear or a human breaking into my house while we're in it, I want something that will knock them down and stomp on them. I love shooting the .38special, and that is SWMBO's bedside gun, but I expect I'll be on the other side of the bed unloading .357 mag and/or .45acp on them. Or the 12ga. YMMV, and you're an adult, you can make your own decisions, but deer don't usually take meth before kicking in your door, either.

[Daekar]

All my guns can handle 357mag pressures. In a rifle or large handgun, I don't mind full-power 357 at all and I have some loads which push 158gr bullets to very respectable velocities. In my S&W M60, my carry gun, I absolutely do not shoot full-power 357. Whether the gun can take it or not (it can) is pretty irrelevant in my mind, I simply can't tolerate the recoil and my shot recovery is terrible. In a small gun, regular 38spl loads are plenty for me... if 158gr @ 800-900fps doesn't cure what ails me, I'm pretty sure nothing else I can handle in a small gun will either.

[robertbank]

All my guns can handle 357mag pressures. In a rifle or large handgun, I don't mind full-power 357 at all and I have some loads which push 158gr bullets to very respectable velocities. In my S&W M60, my carry gun, I absolutely do not shoot full-power 357. Whether the gun can take it or not (it can) is pretty irrelevant in my mind, I simply can't tolerate the recoil and my shot recovery is terrible. In a small gun, regular 38spl loads are plenty for me... if 158gr @ 800-900fps doesn't cure what ails me, I'm pretty sure nothing else I can handle in a small gun will either.

Smart move Daekar. Nobody I know of walks very far with a bullet in their head. Your load will certainly do that. You hopefully will never have to test the issue. Be Well.

Take Care

Bob

[rbuck351]

Needed for what? I lived in AK for 32 years and most folks there that spent time in the woods didn't think the 357 was needed. Most thought a handgun round should start with a 4 and even then the 41 mag as about minimum and many preferred the 12 ga over any hand gun.

The grizzly is really tough and even if you kill one with a 357, it may not be fast enough to keep you alive. Black bear and few other critters are nearly as tough.

[Soundguy]

327mag..maybe.. Only because it has e57 performance level. 32 hrmag only has 38spl performance level.

[FISH4BUGS]

Doesn't anyone think shot placement is the more important point?

[robertbank]

Doesn't anyone think shot placement is the more important point?

Sure but sometimes bullets don't go where they are supposed to go and that is when the extra umph of the .357Mag might come in handy. The 5' tall Cree lady downed her Grizzly with one shot from her .22lr but I would not carry a .22lr to protect myself from a Grizzly.

Take Care

Bob

[megasupermagnum]

Well I never thought I had to record them but I'll look around to find the last story I read was a hiker that was killed by a bear and they found him partially eaten when Park Rangers kill the bear and did a necropsy on it it had multiple bullets in it that were Old Wounds

I'm still waiting on any evidence to back up your claim. [smilie=1:

[RKJ]

I'm still waiting on any evidence to back up your claim. [smilie=1: Here's a story for you. But, there's stories of bears being killed with 9mm and 22LR too, so take it as you wish. I did a quick web search and found quite a bit of them.

https://bowhunting.net/2017/07/45-caliber-round-found-in-bears-skull/

[Hanzy4200]

I think for personal defense you are just fine with +p .38's. I prefer to have the cylinder length to utilize .357's if I choose, but I don't think it's all the important. Shooting full house magnums from a snubby isn't fun.

[tazman]

For social purposes, I use standard 38 special in a model 60 3inch. One of the older 38 only models.
For woods and target, I use a 686 six inch. 38 target loads for paper and full magnums for woods. Nothing in the woods here in Illinois a 357 can't handle.
I don't load +P38 special. I have some older 38 special revolvers that won't handle them well so I load all my 38 special cases to standard pressure.
I don't want to put a plus pressure round in an older gun by accident.
Other people may have different needs. This is what works for me.

[derek45]

https://i.imgur.com/7QF8upm.png

https://i.imgur.com/sxpoT1D.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/X6uC59c.jpg

.
.
.

Here's a short documentary on the difference between 38special and 357magnum


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJdQfjaRAG0

[wilecoyote]

I don't believe deer are as tough as bears... deer don't usually take meth before kicking in your door, either.
never truer words, but the adrenaline boosted by drugs in humans is the same adrenaline overworking in the wildlife.(other wildlife even more). if a big carnivore can react with deadly effects even if mortally wounded, a wounded and/or scared deer on the run can stomp anything, or plainly suffer uselessly, needin' bloodhounds to be tracked the next day, etc._ of course I'm not debating about gun choice, here, only 2c. about never underestimating the unforeseeable effects of adrenaline, even in Bambi & C._

[358429]

It is good to have options. 357 snub has the option to be a real powerhouse, the nuclear option, if you choose. Size comparision with other pistols in the pictures. That's the hookset for me, the power to weight ratio. It can be comfortably carried while chipping and splitting wood for hours, driving, walking, cc, without rubbing me wrong or bumping the handle into stuff.

Yes I know the short barrel handicaps the terminal ballistics. That's why I like Winchester 296!

I think there is credence to the cannon theory posted earlier.

Imagine a defense scenario. Kinda unrealistic, just hear me out. Camping out in the woods, awakened by an aggresive bear/ very bad dog, biting you, trying to eat you, maybe aggresive because it is suffering disease. If you had the barrel pressed up against the animal and fired the gun, would that be a barrel obstruction, or would the muzzle blast fill the thoractic cavity and pop him like a balloon? My untested unproven opinion is that the expanding gasses will sort it out like stomping a tomato.


When you shoot magnums the muzzle blast is onerous, pushes brass on the floor forward when shooting at the indoor range, bends grass at the outdoor range. Rings the bell when you hit the steel plate, imagine striking it with a ball peen hammer, as hard as you can swing it, if you are strong.

If I ever use it without earplugs all I'll say is WHAT? DID YOU SAY? HUH?


*drinks coffee*

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[robertbank]

358429 very nice photography. How do you keep the faces of your cylinder so clean?

Take Care

Bob

[wilecoyote]

to HATCH : about the editing. I got it. (I've understood, better later than never)
thanks for having saved me an involuntary gaffe_

[Scrounge]

never truer words, but the adrenaline boosted by drugs in humans is the same adrenaline overworking in the wildlife.(other wildlife even more). if a big carnivore can react with deadly effects even if mortally wounded, a wounded and/or scared deer on the run can stomp anything, or plainly suffer uselessly, needin' bloodhounds to be tracked the next day, etc._ of course I'm not debating about gun choice, here, only 2c. about never underestimating the unforeseeable effects of adrenaline, even in Bambi & C._

Never said Bambi was safe. Even a rabbit will purely tear you up if you corner and scare them. Talking defensive use of force, I'd use a .22LR if that's all I've got handy, but prefer much larger & faster bullets or boolits. There is a difference between being cornered, and cornering something or someone else. And in being cornered, the only way out is through or over the critter cornering you. All-out attack is more likely to save you than a measured whap on the nose. It MAY work... Blowing a big freaking hole through the middle of whatever has you cornered WILL work. Had an honorary uncle when I was a kid, guy taught me to shoot as much as my dad did. Also happened to be a cop. Took on a kid hopped up on angel dust, and even with two good hits from the .38 Special that cops carried back then, the kid wrecked Uncle Archie's back before he went down. Might have happened with .357mag, too, but less likely.

[358429]

Thank you Bob. About the cylinder face, Surely you jest! When function is impeded by carbon deposits, as will be shortly, I remove the cylinder, sometimes the sideplate, and thoroughly clean using brass chore boy and 0000 steel wool soaked with synthetic transmission oil, degrease, then lubricate/preserve with mobile 1 engine oil.
After doing that work they look cleaner than when I bought it.
If your hands are not getting black from carbon during shooting practice you are not practicing enough![emoji41]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210620/a4ba88d5544bb8f257e20f0a24117b31.jpg

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[Scrounge]

Doesn't anyone think shot placement is the more important point?

Shot placement is ALWAYS more important. But. Poke someone in the heart with an ice pick, and they will very probably die from it it, but you just might get that ice pick back as a suppository before they die. Tiny holes take longer to bleed out from. Make big holes. It's faster!

Bill

[robertbank]

358429 All in fun. I seldom bother with cleaning them. If I shoot a lot of 38spl in my GP-100/686 I just drop in a few hot .357 rounds and that pretty much cleans up any concerns. Besides those cylinder faces are only clean until the next 6 rds go down range.

Take Care

Bob

[wilecoyote]

Never said Bambi was safe. Even a rabbit will purely tear you up if you corner and scare them. Talking defensive use of force, I'd use a .22LR if that's all I've got handy, but prefer much larger & faster bullets or boolits. There is a difference between being cornered, and cornering something or someone else. And in being cornered, the only way out is through or over the critter cornering you. All-out attack is more likely to save you than a measured whap on the nose. It MAY work... Blowing a big freaking hole through the middle of whatever has you cornered WILL work. Had an honorary uncle when I was a kid, guy taught me to shoot as much as my dad did. Also happened to be a cop. Took on a kid hopped up on angel dust, and even with two good hits from the .38 Special that cops carried back then, the kid wrecked Uncle Archie's back before he went down. Might have happened with .357mag, too, but less likely.
Thank you for expressing a shared opinion that it would have been difficult for me to fully express both for the language and for direct experience. the same goes for your post after this_

[Low Budget Shooter]

I have ended up using snubs in .357 rather than .38 because I can load light .357 loads to make essentially 38 Special +P+

[ddixie884]

With everything being said a .38spl is a very nice and useful thing. A .357 is a very different animal and if you really need one, the only .38spl that will fill it's shoes is the old Elmer Keith 38-44 load. Most .38s don't work for that...........

[Scrounge]

Thank you for expressing a shared opinion that it would have been difficult for me to fully express both for the language and for direct experience. the same goes for your post after this_

I understand that .32 caliber pistols were (and probably still are) quite popular in Europe. With a quality handgun and lots of practice, a .32 is probably quite adequate for most situations where you'd need to defend yourself with a firearm. And it may get you killed in the wrong circumstances. For folks who are lightly built, and not capable of absorbing recoil and getting back on target fast, it may still be all they can use. You have to make your own decisions, and you will have to live (or die) with the results. But that's always been true anyway. All you can really do is the best you can do.

I fired my first .32acp pistol about a year and a half ago. One of my acquaintances had a Baby Colt in .32acp, and was willing to let me shoot his as he was shooting my .45acp Tisas Zig M 1911. It was a sweet little gun, and quite easy to hit the target with. And that SHOULD be all it takes. Discounting thick skulls and drug-fueled rages, anyway. I don't know about where you live, but my neighborhood is not unlikely to have at least the drug-fueled rages. Bears aren't very common in my town. Druggies are, unfortunately. Your Mileage May Vary! A lot, since things are probably a bit different there.

Bill

[1hole]

With a quality handgun and lots of practice, a .32 is probably quite adequate for most situations where you'd need to defend yourself with a firearm. And it may get you killed in the wrong circumstances.

Defense caliber is a personal choice; we make our choice and live or die with it.

Few of us will ever need a defensive handgun of any caliber so for them anything at all is more than enough. But, for those few people who will need one and have one that's too small for the job at hand it's unlikely they'll ever need one again.

For me and my family, I declare that a .357 is the minimum choice for serious social work; after all, it's only a 9mm on steroids.

[Mr.skrimps]

With a lever action rifle, I want the magnum all day everyday. with my pistol, i hear you loud and clear!

[Mr.skrimps]

this is kinda my logic. Any .357 can do anything a .38 can, why not have all options open?

[tazman]

this is kinda my logic. Any .357 can do anything a .38 can, why not have all options open?

Your options are limited by which cartridge you have in the chamber at the moment. You still must make a decision about which cartridge to load into the gun beforehand.

[sharps4590]

.357....one cartridge I never could find affection for. I've had a half dozen or more... a few Ruger BH's and whatever their DA revolver is, S&W Mods. 19, 686, 27 and I think a Rossi or something else thrown in the mix. They all went down the road fairly quick. It's a good cartridge, possibly a great cartridge but for all its the flash/bang, I can get more for less trouble with 44's and 45's.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have a mold that drops .38 boolits at 173 grains. Powder coated and loaded over 7 grains of HS 6 they shoot superbly out of my 5" Model 27. Hit the 50 yard gong with authority. My 1956 K 38 can't handle a load like that so it gets fed a 105 grain Lee swc over 3 grains of VV N310. I enjoy shooting both but I do like the kick of the .357.

[charlie b]

I know I have seen it somewhere but can't find it.

Velocity comparison in 2" snubs, .357 and .38spl (+P), for various factory loads (no hotrod handloads).

PS never mind, I found it.

[358429]

The hot rod handloads is where it is. You don't always have to drive fast.

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[BunkTheory]

It is good to have options. 357 snub has the option to be a real powerhouse, the nuclear option, if you choose. Size comparision with other pistols in the pictures. That's the hookset for me, the power to weight ratio. It can be comfortably carried while chipping and splitting wood for hours, driving, walking, cc, without rubbing me wrong or bumping the handle into stuff.

Yes I know the short barrel handicaps the terminal ballistics. That's why I like Winchester 296!

I think there is credence to the cannon theory posted earlier.

Imagine a defense scenario. Kinda unrealistic, just hear me out. Camping out in the woods, awakened by an aggresive bear/ very bad dog, biting you, trying to eat you, maybe aggresive because it is suffering disease. If you had the barrel pressed up against the animal and fired the gun, would that be a barrel obstruction, or would the muzzle blast fill the thoractic cavity and pop him like a balloon? My untested unproven opinion is that the expanding gasses will sort it out like stomping a tomato.


When you shoot magnums the muzzle blast is onerous, pushes brass on the floor forward when shooting at the indoor range, bends grass at the outdoor range. Rings the bell when you hit the steel plate, imagine striking it with a ball peen hammer, as hard as you can swing it, if you are strong.

If I ever use it without earplugs all I'll say is WHAT? DID YOU SAY? HUH?


*drinks coffee*

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actually there is scientific evidence of what happens with muzzle blast... the flame and the pressurized gas follow the bullets a ways.

Saw photos of an individual who had a muzzle to skin contact discharge of a black powder revolver into his chest.
ALL gas followed the bullet. it CHARRED the outside of all organs in the chest cavity, and the bullet went through the lungs.. the inside of the lungs were charred as well.

I mean "crap, this chicken breast fell in the coals and i never noticed" kind of charred.

[BunkTheory]

Actually human ballistics are not the thing to be concerned about..

Everything online all points to penetration with animals being the important thing. Hence the ".40 diameter, 200 grain, 1000fps" rules of thumb for hunting deer or bear.

The 200 grain load in 38 special or 38/44 was supposed to have been created to smash through the breast bone of a black bear...

SO what is the goal we reach for? Expansion or penetration?

[358429]

The goal is control. Recondition ourselves to shoot stronger and stronger guns without losing sight of control.

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[BunkTheory]

The goal is control. Recondition ourselves to shoot stronger and stronger guns without losing sight of control.

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Makes no sense at all to do that.

[358429]

Makes no sense at all to do that.It's very sensible to do that.

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[358429]

By using a grip strength exerciser on a semi-regular basis and stretching and massaging my hands,

I prevent damage from repetitive motion from my job, or from bullet casting or reloading with a hand press.

My fingers are powerful in spite of my hand size. I can squeeze the hand of a big man so hard that he will scream like a cat after you step on his tail.

Handloading has allowed me to adjust, and increase bullet weight and powder charge, the power level!, so I can condition my hands for the impact from recoil. 15.5 grains of Winchester 296 with a hundred and fifty five grain lead hollow point bullet, loaded in short 357 mag brass, powder coated, sized 358, is no joke, especially with snub nose 20 ounce revolvers.

It lives locked in a Safariland retention holster, inside the sleeping bag when I sleep under the stars. Better not wake me up...

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[robertbank]

Jerry Mikulak (SP) had no feeling in his right thumb from shooting handguns. You will never shoot as many rounds as Jerry does but the you can damage the nerves in your hand if you shoot a lot of hot loads. Strength in your hands won't stop the effect of the handgun recoil on your hand, elbow and shoulder.

You may be the strongest guy on the planet but a microscopic virus can maim you just as badly as an overloaded handgun, so too a simple law of physics.

Take Care

Bob

[358429]

And soon I will share the road with unskilled drivers. That will be my largest risk today I believe.

Be safe and shoot skillfully.

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[tazman]

I have to avoid high recoiling handguns. I have arthritis in my hands and wrists. High recoil is very painful for me. Shooting gloves don't help.
Building up a resistance/tolerance is not an option.
I can handle 45ACP, 44 Special, and 357 mag in full sized firearms. Anything more powerful will cause me problems.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I’ve built up resistance and tolerance for the heavy recoiling revolvers.
I resist shooting them and tolerate the people that do.

[charlie b]

ROFLMAO

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[Daekar]

I have shot full-power 357 loads in a K frame and a J frame. Didn't like it, won't carry it, won't practice with it. Mild 38 spl loads in those guns for me if I actually want to hit anything, because minute-of-barn door is the best I get out of the full-power stuff.

My break-action Encore pistol with a 12" barrel feels wrong with anything but heavy loads. 245gr @ 1250fps, 158gr @ 1900+fps.

Never shot a large-frame revolver, but I'm betting an N-frame isn't half bad.

[358429]

I bet that Encore pistol would really smack the steel plates! What is it chambered in, I am guessing 357 Max?

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[dverna]

Some people tolerate recoil better than others. But most people cannot handle recoil as well as they think they can.

If you can shoot well with a heavier load, it makes sense to me to take all the advantages you can for serious work.

Then you have the "real men" who like to take a pounding even for casual shooting. Hey, whatever turns their crank. Most of the guys I used to see at the public ranges were not very good shots with heavy loads, but at 10 feet, accuracy may not matter much.

[Daekar]

I bet that Encore pistol would really smack the steel plates! What is it chambered in, I am guessing 357 Max?

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Actually it's just regular 357mag, but it seems to be a fast barrel. I was really surprised at the numbers it puts out... I guess MGM did a nice job on it!

I had a recommended load from a bullet manufacturer of 10.1gr of Lil'Gun to achieve subsonic velocity with a 230gr wadcutter, but the 245gr RF from Accurate came out over 1200fps with that charge. Had to drop more than 2 full grains to get subsonic.

But yes, it does smack the plates with authority! I am super impatient for my suppressor to arrive... it's going to be super fun to thwack the plates with that thing on there. I might even SBR it so I can put a stock on.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I think my everyday. 357 loads are about 80% of full on magnum loads. While stout they are not punishing and give me fine off hand accuracy. I have similar loads for .44 spl and magnum. In the .44's I would not hesitate using them on deer. I really enjoy revolver shooting.

[358429]

I shot my 77-357 today at the range. I was enjoying the difference in power and sound between 2.5 grains red dot with 172 grain swc in 38 special versus 14 grains 4227 in 357 magnum with the same bullet.

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[zarrinvz24]

I seldom use full-charge .357s. If a #358429 Keith at 1000 fps won't do it I go straight to a .44 Mag. or .30-'06!

Having now read this entire 7 pages of posts, I think this statement is the best answer to the OP's question. Is there much that a 358429 @ 1K not be able to handle? For hunting, I would think a 158gr cast of 20-1 and moving about 1050 w/ a cup point is about as close to perfection as one could hope. Of course, more is always better, but does anyone disagree with the fundamental thought to my statement?

[megasupermagnum]

Having now read this entire 7 pages of posts, I think this statement is the best answer to the OP's question. Is there much that a 358429 @ 1K not be able to handle? For hunting, I would think a 158gr cast of 20-1 and moving about 1050 w/ a cup point is about as close to perfection as one could hope. Of course, more is always better, but does anyone disagree with the fundamental thought to my statement?

That's really a loaded question. I guess I'll address "For hunting, I would think a 158gr cast of 20-1 and moving about 1050 w/ a cup point is about as close to perfection as one could hope."

Really it all comes down to accuracy. If your 357 shoots these light loads really well, then I suppose they would be fantastic for a lot of hunting. You'd probably see some expansion, and they would likely work well on deer. Usually I find stronger loads shoot better.

There's no such thing as perfection, it's all application. If were hunting something like turkey, I'd want a solid bullet to minimize damage. If I were hunting deer, this would be a fair choice, although I opt for a hollow point. I guess you could say your stated load is a fair do-all load, but close to perfection? I don't think so.

[JCM45]

I normally shoot a mid range load in my old Ruger Security Six. My load is either an NOE or Lee 158 gr SWC over 5 1/2 - 6gr of Unique. I don't have a chrono, but estimate 950-1000 fps muzzle velocity out of the 4 inch barrel.

[Rapier]

A lot of professional guides use the 357 Mag, never ran across one carrying a 38spl, yet. I carry a 357 as a backup. I prefer my 45-70 Mauser for serious work no need to worry at all about adequate