1911 trouble feeding

[Nanookofthenorth]

Hello need some help from you knowledgeable individuals. Hope I’m posting this in the right section. I am reloading .45acp for my Springfield 1911 and I have done quite a bit of troubleshooting myself. I am using the Lee 6 cavity mold and sizing die. For reloading the cases I am using the Lee 3 die set (sizing die, powder through expanding die and bullet/crimp die). I loaded the rounds to .265, feeding the rounds from the mag they are going most of the way in the chamber but the slide is staying back about 1/4 inch and I have to “jimmy” the slide to extract it. If I place the round in the chamber by hand and drop the slide it will chamber properly and fire. If I only have 1 round in the magazine and drop the slide it will also chamber most of the time. I proceed to load them all the way down to .120. At this point if I have more than 3 in the mag they will not feed from the magazine. Factory FMJ bullets with the same ogive feed fine no matter what. What’s going on here?

[country gent]

I would recommend trying the "plunk test" to get an idea. pull the barrel out and drop out a couple rounds in see how they fit in relation to the hood. next try a few sized cases.

Check to make sure all bell is removed and crimp isnt buckling the case. Measure overall case length.

Last is to measure loaded round dia both factory and handloads. Jacketed bullet dia is .451 a cast bullet at .453-.454 may be enough to give problems

[Dusty Bannister]

It will be of considerable help for you to tell us the bullet mold number and if you are sizing the bullet to a consistent diameter. Some bullet profiles are known to be troublesome. Do you mean the seating depth is for a cartridge OAL of 1.265 or 1.120"? Clarity is critical in understanding the problem.

If you are really new to reloading, this thread on setting up to load for the 9MM will give you a lot of information that will make life easier when loading for the 45 ACP.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[wv109323]

I don' understand the numbers .265 and .120. The 230 g. RN bulet should be 1.250 oal. Take the barrel out of the gun and use the chamber as a gauge. Use a magic marker and coat the round. Putting it back in the chamber should tell you where the interference is. My initial guess is the case is not being crimped enough to allow the round to fully chamber. A picture would help.

[DougGuy]

Your Springfield is notoriously known for short or no throat in the barrel. To pass the plunk test you probably have to seat boolits MUCH deeper in the case than you would want to, obviously deeper than any published load data specifies, this is quite typical, manufacturers don't want to go to the expense of putting a proper throat in the barrel to chamber reloads, especially cast boolits, and some of them won't chamber all of the commercially available ammo.

The proper fix is to have the barrel throated, this will allow it to feed anything that will cycle through the magazine and you won't have to seat shorter COA. The shorter COA also greatly affects smooth feeding of the 1911, as longer COA feed much more reliable.

If you can look in your barrel and it looks like the Springfield RO barrel on the left in the photo, it is typical and doesn't even have the freebore that SAAMI specs call for. Having it throated like the same barrel on the right (before and after) fixes the issue easily.

283542

[Nanookofthenorth]

Gentlemen, I apologize for some clerical errors and omitting the mold number. I know it’s standard fashion to attack, especially someone who is new, on any forum for some reason. However I am not an idiot, I am just looking for some help. I have been reloading for many years but have not loaded much pistol ammo, but I am lately do to the shortages.

The Lee mold I am using is 452-2281R (the same ogive as a factory fmj bullet)

The original oal I used was 1.265 now I’m down to 1.220

I will measure my cast bullet diameter they ran fairly easily through the bullet sizing die so I didn’t even think to check that. Will also try the plunk test.

Doug thank you very much for that info. I faintly remember reading something like that somewhere. I will have to double check but I believe mine looks like the picture on the left. My gun is the base GI model and has a manufacture date in March of this year. How much does it typically cost to have something like that done? I do have a gun shop locally with a full machine shop. Thanks again.

[sigep1764]

Theres no attack here, we welcome new folks to our hobby! Measure your boolit width. Grab a fired case and measure the width of the case wall. Double that and add the boolit width to it. .452(boolit width) + (case wall width x 2)= loaded cartridge diameter at the case mouth. This will tell you if your crimp is correct.

[8mmFan]

Interesting thread. My carry pistol for many years has been a Springfield XD .45 ACP. When I first started casting for it, my mold was the Lee semi-wadcutter. Those bullets would hang up in that pistol all the time. They ALSO hung up in my RIA 1911. When I switched to the Lee 230 round nosed mold, the problem essentially went away in both pistols. That appears to be a different problem than yours? But it makes me wonder if the XD’s have the same throat situation that Doug showed in the pictures. I’ll have to look tomorrow. Thanks for posting your situation, and welcome to Cast Boolits! Most helpful and friendliest community I’ve ever found on the interweb. Hope you’re able to solve your situation with your 1911.

8mmFan

[FLINTNFIRE]

I will say stop dropping the slide on a round in the chamber , not worried about a discharge It is your extractor that you will mess up and then you will have issues until you replace it , A 1911 is designed to feed from the magazine , please give your extractor proper care .

[mehavey]

Nanook: What is the final case mouth diameter of the loaded round?
[Hint, it should taper "crimped" to no more than 0.471 / 0.472" or so]

http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/ACF2C.gif
(0.473" in the drawing above. I generally keep it slightly below that)

[Nanookofthenorth]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Sigep, using your method I came to .482

Mehavey: physically measuring the case mouth of my loaded case came to .470

I confirmed my sized bullets are coming to .452 230 grains +- 1 grn

Here is a picture of 1 of my loaded rounds, the malfunction and the throat of the chamber.

Again this only happens when the mag is full. They will feed 90% of the time if there is only 1 in the magazine.

[Nanookofthenorth]

...

[ABJ]

Nanook: What is the final case mouth diameter of the loaded round?
[Hint, it should taper "crimped" to no more than 0.471 / 0.472" or so]

http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/ACF2C.gif
(0.473" in the drawing above. I generally keep it slightly below that)

I agree, I would close the taper crimp down to .468/.469, This is a very common problem. In our Bullseye guns we use SWC and crimp to .466 on the driving band. Don't think you need that much on a round nose.
Tony

[oley55]

I know it’s standard fashion to attack, especially someone who is new, on any forum for some reason. However I am not an idiot, I am just looking for some help.

I read that statement and immediately went back and reread all of the preceding posts, as I too have seen past posts that can be seen as "attacking the new guy". I could mention a couple forums (not this one) where demanding ridiculous background data before even considering the question at hand seems common. There are a number of forums out there where I remain reluctant to ask questions for these reasons.

That being said, while trying to be as objective as possible I honestly failed to find the attacks or demeaning posts you suggest. I won't be retarded and suggest it never happens here, but they seem rare to me. Just saying, perhaps we perceive things based on expectations and not necessarily on reality.

I wish you well and will continue to follow this thread with interest as I too am new to bullet casting and reloading auto pistol. Specifically, 45 ACP.

[Sailormilan2]

Having 2 Springfields, from my experience they tend to have generous chambers. Again, as was suggested, do the "plunk" test. Taking the barrel out of the gun, and dropping a round, or two, into the chamber to see how freely they go in. Use a taper crimp die, and taper crimp as a separate operation.
Since you said that it only happened when used with a full mag, there is a possibility that your extractor is too tight, and not allowing the case rim to slide into position. If this is a new gun, and still in the break-in period, I would recommend changing the recoil spring from the stock 16# and going up to an 18#, or 18 1/2#. The little extra power will help things work during the break-in period.

[Wayne Smith]

I have taken both of my 1911's (Not Springfields, btw) to Dougguy and had him throat them. They are shooting my cast boolits (MP mold) ever since. He is the expert on this and his work is highly recommended. A PM to him will answer all your specific questions. Either for him to do it or how to intelligently talk to your local gunsmith, he can set you up.

[44MAG#1]

I have a Springfield Ronin and 4 Kimbers 3 Glocks in 45 Auto and all of them feed, eject etc. With no problems.
I use an old Kart Match barrel as a chamber Guage. If the round fits it it will fit the firearms I have. I don't have barrels throated ect.. I taper crimp to .469" to .468". The Kimbers and Glocks will accept longer OAL's than the Springfield but I don't care. If the cartridge fits the Kart barrel it will fit just about anything made so far.

[Rich/WIS]

Might try only seating in the seater die and then taper crimping in a separate die. Have experience with four SA 45's, two RO's, another 1911, and XDM(?). All work reliably with SWC and the few RN we used worked fine as well. Plunk test as suggested and set OAL based on what the gun likes and taper crimp. Curious about the picture of the loaded round, what is all the nose of the bullet?

[DougGuy]

Doug thank you very much for that info. I faintly remember reading something like that somewhere. I will have to double check but I believe mine looks like the picture on the left. My gun is the base GI model and has a manufacture date in March of this year. How much does it typically cost to have something like that done? I do have a gun shop locally with a full machine shop. Thanks again.

Click the link in my signature and send a PM, this is an affordable one time fix that lets you run anything through your 1911 that will cycle through the magazine. I would laugh but I would not be surprised at all to see it run with the boolits seated upside down after throating. They just run that good. Shoot lights out as well.

The problem is not limited to the Springfield, most all of the 45ACP auto loaders made in the last 20+ years have little to no throat in the barrel. Most will use factory jacketed .451" ammo and that's ALL the manufacturers care about consumers using. To be reliable with .452" cast boolits, the freebore in the barrel throat needs to be at least .452" which very few new guns are made with a .452" throat.

[prs]

I am late to the fire here, but I noted no attack above the OP's mention of such; always realize the internet shows little emotion. I had similar troubles when I started with 1911s in 45ACP and for me it was the lack of a decent transitoin from chamber to barrel diameter; i.e. the leade. Having that corrected made a huge difference not only in elimination failure to feed, but also in improving group sizes and in reducing leading (the abrupt "ledge" at the end of the chamber was "skinning" the lead bullets. Perhaps copper clads were OK with that abrupt design, I would not know as I do not shoot them. Welcome to the forum!

prs

[Nanookofthenorth]

I did the plunk test and I’m having mixed results. Some are flush with the barrel hood some are sitting higher than the barrel hood. Which makes not much sense since they’re all speced the same. I ordered a taper crimp die to see if that helps. If not I will be contacting you doug.

[Nanookofthenorth]

They are powder coated. I’m not super impressed with the coating I used. I used the matte black powder coating and it came out more of a wrinkle finish.

[Dusty Bannister]

Since you have powder coated the bullets, you have changed where the ogive of the bullet encounters the lands. The uneven thickness of the coating exacerbates this even more. Sizing the bullet makes little difference in where the nose of the bullet ogive encounters the lands since that is never touched.

Several methods of determining the cartridge OAL are available. Cheap and quick is the dowel method. Send PM and I will send copy to you. I do not recall if that is part of the thread for getting set up for new 9MM or not. Dusty

[Nanookofthenorth]

This definitely may be the case. You don’t think my caliper measurements are accurate because of this?

[Dusty Bannister]

Me personally, I measure the diameters with a mic. I measure the Cartridge OAL with a caliper since I do not have a big enough micrometer. If you try the dowel method to determine the cartridge OAL for the bullet you have, the caliper will be just fine for the length. That is the simple part about it. Taper crimp is determined empirically.

[oley55]

They are powder coated. I’m not super impressed with the coating I used. I used the matte black powder coating and it came out more of a wrinkle finish.

Yes, I had some concerns upon seeing your pic. The lumps/bumps of powder on the bullets has to lead to inconsistent bullet dimensions, making it all but impossible to accurately measure them and could easily contribute to some plunking and some not.

Mine are considerably smoother and I still had a couple hang up during my initial load work-ups. Unfortunately I wasn't thinking and I single fed and fired them. I should have set them aside unfired for careful examination at home. I fear plunk testing every single round may very well be what is required.

Someone questioned earlier which mold was used. Although I do not recall seeing much discussion about Lee 45 acp molds, I have read much about 9mm Lee molds with the 1R vs 2R profile. The 2R being recommended for PC'd bullets.

[Char-Gar]

I would pay attention to DougGuy's information about barrel throating. I was skeptical for years, but sent him a barrel for throating. I have since that time, sent him my other two 1911 barrels. He know what he is talking about. I no longer "plunk" anything, for this is useless in a properly throated barrel. I set the length of my rounds, as long as they will fit without binding in the magazine and taper crimp. They all feed as slick as snot on a glass door knob!

[daloper]

I was having trouble feeding cast in my RI 1911. I had DougGuy do my throat and crown my barrel and it now feeds anything I feed it. I purchased a spare barrel and had that one done also. If you need it done he is the go to guy.

[mdi]

I have seen problems, many times here with Lee's 1R bullet profile. The chubby short ogive requires much deeper seating, especially for a "tighter" chamber. Google hits; https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Lee+45+ACP+1R+bullet+OAL&atb=v275-1ud&ia=web&iai=r1-0&page=1&sexp=%7B%22biaexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22msvrtexp%22%3A %22b%22%2C%22mliexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22earlydeep%22 %3A%22b%22%7D

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Years ago I got a Springfield Armory Trophy Match. I shot 200 grain swc boolits out of it. 1.25 long and a stout taper crimp to insure chambering. The plunk test will tell you much.

[Huskerguy]

I don't shoot 45 much as I only have one, an inexpensive ATI that shoots very well. I worked up some 230 grain round nose bullets and every once in a while I had to push forward on the slide to get it to shut fully. Then I changed bullets to the Lee 200 grain SWC. I experienced failures to get them into the chamber and carefully kept seating them deeper until the problem was solved. It could be a combination problem with the crimp and seating as noted above.

I had several makes of 9mm years ago but now only have two different models of CZ 9 mm. They are notorious for short chambers and the need to seat bullets a bit deeper. I was working up loads for my 10C a while back with a variety of bullets of varying profiles. I used the plunk test on each one, recording the length of each and subtracting a few thou. I couldn't get any of them to group very well but my factory white box ammo was all right in the center black at 50' off a rest. So I thought, what the heck, I loaded my ammo to the same length as the factory ammo and it shoots great. I have no failures to chamber or anything but they do not correspond to the plunk testing I did over and over very carefully. The bottom line for me is there are just so many variables in manufacturers that having a set pattern may go out the window but it is a place to start. YMMV

[ShooterAZ]

I have seen problems, many times here with Lee's 1R bullet profile. The chubby short ogive requires much deeper seating, especially for a "tighter" chamber. Google hits; https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Lee+45+ACP+1R+bullet+OAL&atb=v275-1ud&ia=web&iai=r1-0&page=1&sexp=%7B%22biaexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22msvrtexp%22%3A %22b%22%2C%22mliexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22earlydeep%22 %3A%22b%22%7D

This has been my experience as well. I switched to the RCBS 45-230-RN, and haven't had any problems since.

[gwpercle]

Let me throw in ... The very first 1911 45 acp mould I ever bought was that Lee 452-228-1R thinking it would be the perfect copy of the hardball bullet and should feed like a charm ...
... Boy was I wrong ...that S.O.G. ( Son of a Gun) gave me nothing but feeding problems ... the 1R profile just isn't quite right ... I could never figure it out . I found a used Lyman 452460 200 gr. SWC mould , double cavity for $25.00 ...and it solved all my problems .
That Lee 1R was a single cavity ... how long ago was that ... I paid $12.50 for and sold it at a garage sale for $2.00 and felt like I had cheated the guy... in 50 years it has been the ONLY mould I have ever gotten rid of ... it's a stinker in my opinion .
Back then I shot a lot of NRA Bullseye Match every week ... .22 , .38 and .45acp in slow , timed and rapid fire matches ...so the 45 acp ammo had to feed and be accurate .
I would sell it and try one of the Truncated Cone designs like 452-230-TC or lighter 452-200-SWC .
Maybe DougGuy can work his magic on your barrel and make it work with the 452-228-1R... he's good at stuff like this .
Gary

[fredj338]

Well I can tell you being a long time 1911 guy, that 228R does NOT have the same ogive as FMJ. It has a much rounder ogive that requires deeper seating. At 1.230", I can get them to feed in most of my 1911s, most are Springfields. Its just not a good design imo. YEs throating reamer will fix it. The Lyman is a near copy for ball ammo.

[jim147]

The 452-230TC is the only .45 I cast anymore. Feeds great in all my autos and is accurate out of my SAA.

[JeffG]

I have an Remington R1, Kimber Custom II, RIA and Tisas and have no issue. I believe that is the result of the profile bullet being used. I started with the Lee 452-230-TC, which needed to be seated so the parallel sides of the bullet didn’t extend beyond the case mouth. I ended up buyin NOE’s copy of an H&G design below. Due to the slight step between side and start of ogive, there is no interference so long as it is seated so the step is seated to edge of case mouth. Another option to think about.

I’ve also run these powder coated without issue.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/452-454/454-237-rn-ac4/

[FLINTNFIRE]

I am running the lee 2r powder coated no issues in all my 1911 45acp and all other 45acp firearms along with MP molds and NOE and no issues all of them unthroated , that lee 1r mold I had to seat deeper and did not like it so it is only for 45colt revolvers .

[45DUDE]

The crimp looks more like a roll crimp to me. Some 1911's like a different boolit. I have some that will shoot anything. Some don't like a short nose boolit. I have found that all will feed a H&G 68 style 200 grain or a fmj 230. When you drop the boolit in the barrel the rim should not be sticking longer than the hood. The boolit should have a little wiggle in the chamber. Magazines can cause a feed problem also. If a store bought round will function your dies need adjustments. I will stay tuned to see what the fix was. I shoot 1911's every week and have put a few together. Feeding problems are part of the game. I had to change a barrel in one to solve a feeding problem and never figured what was wrong. It worked ok in another one. The H&G 68 design could very well fix the problem and should be more accurate.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Did you try different magazines? In my experience, from 22LR to 45ACP, most feeding problems are caused by a weak magazine spring, an incorrect follower angle or the lips releasing the cartridge either too soon or too late.

[hermans]

This has been my experience as well. I switched to the RCBS 45-230-RN, and haven't had any problems since.

I agree with this, had the same problem with this Lee boolit, constant feeding problems. Changed to the RCBS 230gr, no more problems at all. The NOE copy of the classic H&G #34 are also in the same class.....feeds and shoots like a dream.

[Larry Gibson]

Nanookofthenorth

In your 1st post you state; "Factory FMJ bullets with the same ogive feed fine no matter what."

Thus there is nothing wrong with your pistol. It is obviously your reloads. While I certainly agree that Doug does excellent work to have him ream the throat is fixing the pistol to fit the ammunition (if it works). That is backwards as it isn't the pistol that is the problem. I suggest fixing the ammunition.

Let's take it one step at a time.

Are you sizing the bullets to .452 before or after PCing?

[rustyshooter]

Since factory ammo feeds it’s definitely in the reload. It sounds like it’s the profile of the boolit and PC. Switch to Lyman 230gn or RCBS 230gn lubed should do the trick. I would be happy to loan you a 2 cavity I have to try it out. The Miha copy of this mould is the bomb also. Additionally you can make some really sweet hp with the pins he has with them.

[DougGuy]

Nanookofthenorth

In your 1st post you state; "Factory FMJ bullets with the same ogive feed fine no matter what."

Thus there is nothing wrong with your pistol. It is obviously your reloads. While I certainly agree that Doug does excellent work to have him ream the throat is fixing the pistol to fit the ammunition (if it works). That is backwards as it isn't the pistol that is the problem. I suggest fixing the ammunition.

Let's take it one step at a time.

Are you sizing the bullets to .452 before or after PCing?

Ok one step at a time..

1st step: Factory FMJ are .451" in diameter, non PC'd which makes the ojive considerably less forward than a PC'd .452" boolit.

2nd step: Doug does excellent work to have him ream the throat is fixing the pistol to fit the ammunition (if it works). Fact: The majority of cast boolits loaded and fired are indeed .001" or so greater than groove diameter. This is VERY common, and I think you yourself subscribe to this school would that be correct? .358" for 38/357, .452" for 45 ACP/45 Colt, .431" for 44 Spl/Mag and on and on.

It is common math to measure a cylinder throat, and either size to fit the throat, *OR* size the throat to fit the boolit. The first way delivers a boolit to the bore at throat diameter, regardless of what you size to before chambering and firing. We both know this comes with it's own set of gotchas, undersized boolit leading, poor groups, whereas the boolit delivered to the bore *at intended diameter* which is fired through throats that are sized to the boolit in most cases works much better than a smaller boolit. We both know that sizing the throat to fit the boolit is the smarter more practical way to avoid using undersized boolits. It works in 100% of the cases to not reduce the size of the boolit sized .0005" under throat diameter, and it works when it's time to compare groups before and after. There are literally hundreds of our members that can attest to this being fact in 45 caliber alone. There are hundreds more with 44 caliber. There are hundreds more with 35 caliber. If it didn't work, I think the whole community would be aware of that by now.

The 45 ACP is no different in fitment than a revolver. It's still a cast boolit being pushed through a bore. We shoot cast boolits. Almost 100% of those cast boolits are .001" to .002" greater than their factory assembled, jacketed counterparts. It is necessary to fit the throat to the ammo we will use to preserve fitment, to facilitate feeding, and to improve the cast boolit experience to a satisfactory level of performance. If everyone sized cast boolits to .451" we wouldn't be having this discussion, but let me refer to the history of sizing cast to .451" in the 45 ACP, this would be the FIRST suggestion to change when someone posts they are getting a leaded barrel with cast boolits. Oh! Size to .452" this will fix it! Why is this? Because .452" works MUCH better than .451"

One more factor that an autoloader has to worry with is setback. When a boolit is crammed into a tight throat during normal cycling, and it happens to become set deeper in the case as the slide goes into battery, pressures can skyrocket, and it is entirely possible to KB the gun in the shooter's hands, blowing pieces of grip material, brass, powder, lead, into the palms, face and neck, while dumping the contents of the magazine that didn't detonate downward and out of the gun. This has happened to members right here on this forum. The amount of crimp was blamed by the majority when in fact, the barrel of this gun was NOT throated, and it did suffer boolit setback which was the root cause of the KB. Had this barrel been throated, and care taken to fit boolits to plunk, this would have been avoided.

Edit: Okay let me add this. Char-Gar has been shooting the 1911 longer than many of us have been breathing. I would consider his opinions from decades of experience quite factual. Here is his opinion of having the barrel throated to accommodate the ammo:


I would pay attention to DougGuy's information about barrel throating. I was skeptical for years, but sent him a barrel for throating. I have since that time, sent him my other two 1911 barrels. He know what he is talking about. I no longer "plunk" anything, for this is useless in a properly throated barrel. I set the length of my rounds, as long as they will fit without binding in the magazine and taper crimp. They all feed as slick as snot on a glass door knob!

Pretty hard to argue with that level of success. I don't see the "if it works" in any of that.

[Char-Gar]

One major factor is that barrel throats (if any) vary with make and even within the same make over time. Older Colt barrels have more throat than current makes. I have a good Bar-Sto barrel and the throat in it, would make DougGuy proud. I fine nothing untoward in fixing differences and discrepancies in various firearms to make them more accurate and/or reliable. We have been doing that with rifles, shotguns and handguns since the mind of man rememberth not.

[Forrest r]

OAL's all over the place isn't good.

I'd start with a laundry list of things to look at on the reloading bench.

The garbage lee expanders:
They are designed for the shorter in length, smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. A factory lee die next to a lyman m-die expander. Note the high water mark on the lee die (brass line in the middle of the expander button). That was put there from the case mouths as the got expanded.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

The m-die pictured above goes deeper into the case then the factory lee expander. It going into the case clear up to the step in the top of the expander button like in this picture.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

Expanding the cases larger & deeper makes it easier to seat the bullets strait along with having a more even seating pressure required to seat that bullet reload after reload. Consistency is the name of the game & if it takes 10ft lb's to seat 1 bullet & 35ft lb's to seat the next you'll end up with oal's all over the place.

Seating the bullet and crimping in the same step will cause your oal's to be all over the place with semi-auto/taper crimped ammo. It's best to seat the bullet in 1 stage and then crimp the reload in another stage. You can easily check your oal's this way before taper crimping to not only fine tune your reloads. To find out if a specific brass has issues or seating the bullet strait issues, checking neck tension, etc. Taper crimp to +/- .469" and life will be good.

The plunk test:
Everyone seeing the "Max Accuracy" thing and OOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!! Gotta set that oal up to the ragged edge of max to get them bullseye loads. Try setting the oal to +/- 10/1000th's less, accuracy is not only still there it's actually better then using a "Max" oal. Why 10/1000th's under vs Max??? Simple!!!!

If the 10/1000th's under seats a little deep you'll never see the difference on paper. Same goes for the oal ending up a little longer. This also gives you a little room for the fouling that occurs during a range session.

If you set your oal to "Max" on the plunk test loads that are shorter or come out the "Max" oal setting will be fine. Anything longer is jammed into the throat of the bbl. Not only can this align the bullet off center to the bore, it raises the short start pressure of your load. These types of things cause you to loose accuracy. Add to that any fouling that builds up during range use will do nothing but destroy accuracy simply because you have created an environment that cause your reloads to have to be jammed into battery from the changing conditions of the bbl.

If you can keep your 45acp reloads oal +/- 5/1000th's and keep your oal under the "Max" plunk test, you'll do a lot better.

Myself I set my oal to what feeds the best & then do the plunk test. I own a couple springfield 1911's, the range officer.
https://i.imgur.com/SWoUbe4.jpg

They are both stock/no mods/as they came from the factory. The 45acp, owned a bunch of 1911's before this 1 and they always held their own with the h&g #68/69's sized to .452" with a oal of 1.250" with a +/- .469" crimp & 3.6gr to 4.0gr of bullseye. Not hand/cherry picked by any means loaded up a ladder test of bullseye and went to the range. In less then 15 minutes I had my answer.
https://i.imgur.com/lxO5I66.jpg
That oal is 10/1000th's less then the "Max" plunk test.

Liked that ro chamber in 45acp enough that I bought 1 chambered in 9mm. It took a little longer to find a plinking load for it. The mihec 359-125 bullet turned out to be an excellent choice. Cast/pc'd and sized to .358" with an oal 10/1000th's under "Max". Another not hand/cherry picked target, simply what the test target looked like for that test load.
https://i.imgur.com/N6XBlbc.jpg

I'm sure doug does excellent work, just don't know if it's really needed. I'd be taking a hard look at what your doing at the reloading bench to find out why your oal's are all over the map.

[Char-Gar]

We are 110 years deep into reloading the 45 ACP round for the 1911 pistol. There no mysteries, no codes left to break. Our Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers did that years ago. I fail to understand who folks seem to be confused, perplexed and generally distressed about how to do all of this. We use the wrong bullets, wrong powder, wrong springs etc. etc. etc.. The father we get from the original Browning design and load, the more we introduce problems into the equation.

Get a Lyman 452374 (230 RN) or clone. Size cases and expand mouths to .451 or .452. Size the bullet .452. Do not powder coat. Prime the case and put 5 grains of Bullseye into the case. Use a GI or factory 230 grain ball round to set the OAL and taper crimp. With a good magazine and a pistol, clean, properly lubricated and in spec, you will be good to go.

If you want to deviate from this recipe, get your barrel throated.

If you want to use your pistol for home/self defense. Save you nickels and dimes to buy a couple of boxes of good 230 JHP. I used Winchester White Box version.

OK, I am done now. Oh yes! Some good stone ground yellow grits, seasoned the way you like, with some side meat off a hog, is the way to start your day. Black coffee to wash it all down. Love Jesus, brag on Him when you can and treat each other with love and respect. OK....now I am really done!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

Whoa Doug, I didn't criticize you or your work. I just stated in is obvious the gun is not the problem so I see no reason to fix it. Particularly I see no reason to alter the gun to fit the ammo when it is apparent something is wrong with the ammunition. What needs fixed is the OPs ammo.

The OP has not yet advised if he is sizing before and/or after PCing. If PCing after then the bullets are to large in diameter which easily could be the problem that some cause the failure to chamber (the pistol is feeding fine, just not chambering all the time). If so, the simple fix is to size the bullets after PCing to .452.

The OP also had an OAL problem. That could also be the problem. The easy fix is to seat deeper so the loaded rounds pass the "plunk test".

The OP self admits his PCing is not the best with it being "lumpy" which is self evident in the photo he posted. That could be the problem also. The solution is to improve the quality of his PC or to forego PC and lube the bullets.

None of those solution require alteration of the pistol. Now I have no idea how old Char-Gar is but I shot my first M1911 in 1960 when my uncle got one. During 1964 through 1967 I fired many 45 ACP rounds through different M1911s including one I carried in combat and even used it in such. I've been loading cast bullets of numerous designs and weights sized .452 for M1911s and M1917s since '68. I fired thousands of rounds through my own M1911s (competed in IPSC with a M1911 Series 70), Combat Commanders and Para 14. I carried a M1911 on duty as and LEO and my Combat Commander was my off duty pistol. Thousands of rounds were fired through both, mostly my cast bullet practice loads. I had 83 M1911s in my SF arms vault. Also had an indoor range and I shot probably all of them with issue ball and my own cast bullets sized .452. With that said I never, ever one single time found it necessary to throat any M1911 barrel.

When the ammunition with .452 sized cast bullet of any configuration with appropriate nose for the ramp was loaded correctly to 45 ACP specifications it functioned fine in all M1911s with one exception. One M1911 match pistol had a very tight match chamber and with some thicker milsurp cases would not chamber reliably with .452 sized bullets unless the loaded cartridges were run through the lee FCD or loaded using W-W cases. Even .451 sized bullets prove too large in some milsurp cases. However, that was with a custom match barrel.

And BTW; I've shot thousands of .451 sized commercial cast through numerous M1911s and really couldn't tell any difference that .001 made.

And yes, I have loaded a lot of 45 ACP with the Lee bullet mentioned and commercial cast of similar nose profile w/o any chambering problems. The last Lee ones I loaded (about 300 rounds on a SDB) were shot in a very nice original commercial Thompson sub machinegun.

So, we have here the OPs pistol functions fine with factory ammunition but not with his reloads......the problem that needs correcting is the reloads. I see no reason to alter the pistol to fit sub standard reloads. [No offense or criticism meant to the OP] And certainly no offense or criticism mean to you Doug. As I said, you do excellent work. I just don't think it's needed in this instance.

[Forrest r]

OAL's all over the place isn't good.

I'd start with a laundry list of things to look at on the reloading bench.

The garbage lee expanders:
They are designed for the shorter in length, smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. A factory lee die next to a lyman m-die expander. Note the high water mark on the lee die (brass line in the middle of the expander button). That was put there from the case mouths as the got expanded.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

The m-die pictured above goes deeper into the case then the factory lee expander. It going into the case clear up to the step in the top of the expander button like in this picture.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

Expanding the cases larger & deeper makes it easier to seat the bullets strait along with having a more even seating pressure required to seat that bullet reload after reload. Consistency is the name of the game & if it takes 10ft lb's to seat 1 bullet & 35ft lb's to seat the next you'll end up with oal's all over the place.

Seating the bullet and crimping in the same step will cause your oal's to be all over the place with semi-auto/taper crimped ammo. It's best to seat the bullet in 1 stage and then crimp the reload in another stage. You can easily check your oal's this way before taper crimping to not only fine tune your reloads. To find out if a specific brass has issues or seating the bullet strait issues, checking neck tension, etc. Taper crimp to +/- .469" and life will be good.

The plunk test:
Everyone seeing the "Max Accuracy" thing and OOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!! Gotta set that oal up to the ragged edge of max to get them bullseye loads. Try setting the oal to +/- 10/1000th's less, accuracy is not only still there it's actually better then using a "Max" oal. Why 10/1000th's under vs Max??? Simple!!!!

If the 10/1000th's under seats a little deep you'll never see the difference on paper. Same goes for the oal ending up a little longer. This also gives you a little room for the fouling that occurs during a range session.

If you set your oal to "Max" on the plunk test loads that are shorter or come out the "Max" oal setting will be fine. Anything longer is jammed into the throat of the bbl. Not only can this align the bullet off center to the bore, it raises the short start pressure of your load. These types of things cause you to loose accuracy. Add to that any fouling that builds up during range use will do nothing but destroy accuracy simply because you have created an environment that cause your reloads to have to be jammed into battery from the changing conditions of the bbl.

If you can keep your 45acp reloads oal +/- 5/1000th's and keep your oal under the "Max" plunk test, you'll do a lot better.

Myself I set my oal to what feeds the best & then do the plunk test. I own a couple springfield 1911's, the range officer.
https://i.imgur.com/SWoUbe4.jpg

They are both stock/no mods/as they came from the factory. The 45acp, owned a bunch of 1911's before this 1 and they always held their own with the h&g #68/69's sized to .452" with a oal of 1.250" with a +/- .469" crimp & 3.6gr to 4.0gr of bullseye. Not hand/cherry picked by any means loaded up a ladder test of bullseye and went to the range. In less then 15 minutes I had my answer.
https://i.imgur.com/lxO5I66.jpg
That oal is 10/1000th's less then the "Max" plunk test.

Liked that ro chamber in 45acp enough that I bought 1 chambered in 9mm. It took a little longer to find a plinking load for it. The mihec 359-125 bullet turned out to be an excellent choice. Cast/pc'd and sized to .358" with an oal 10/1000th's under "Max". Another not hand/cherry picked target, simply what the test target looked like for that test load.
https://i.imgur.com/N6XBlbc.jpg

I'm sure doug does excellent work, just don't know if it's really needed. I'd be taking a hard look at what your doing at the reloading bench to find out why your oal's are all over the map.

[oscar669]

Had the same problem with miss feeds with SWC cast but would shoot fine with round ball Colt officers model. I pulled the mags apart and stretched out the springs and it it ran like a champ with all ammo. The mags were the original Colt that came with the gun and 2 Kimbers

[fredj338]

Too much over thinking on this. The Lee 228R is just not a good design at all. IT will not load to anything near SAAMI for the 45acp in most 1911. So adjust the throat or adjust the oal or buy another mold.

[DougGuy]

So adjust the throat or adjust the oal or buy another mold.

There is only two ways to do this, fit the boolit to the throat, OR fit the throat to the boolit. Both methods have their pros and cons. The latter is considerably safer than the first and generally feeds much better.

[Burnt Fingers]

Too much over thinking on this. The Lee 228R is just not a good design at all. IT will not load to anything near SAAMI for the 45acp in most 1911. So adjust the throat or adjust the oal or buy another mold.

This right here.

I've never had good luck with any 1R boolit from Lee molds. They're just too fat too far out.

[gwpercle]

Well I can tell you being a long time 1911 guy, that 228R does NOT have the same ogive as FMJ. It has a much rounder ogive that requires deeper seating. At 1.230", I can get them to feed in most of my 1911s, most are Springfields. Its just not a good design imo. YEs throating reamer will fix it. The Lyman is a near copy for ball ammo.

I knew there was something wrong with that Lee 228 1- R profile ... and you are right about having to deep seat the bullet ... that short stubby round profile is just ...wonky ... it really should be a 2-R profile and why they don't correct that ... is beyond me .
Lee has several other 2-R profile boolits ... I have the 9mm 356-125- 2R so I know they can do 2R profiles quite easily ... another mystery of life I guess .
Gary

[mehavey]

Nanook: If you happen to have some Lee Liquid ALOX....

- Size the bullets first (bare)
- Swipe a thin coat of ALOX onto bullet [including a bit on ogive]
- Bake in a 225° oven for an hour
- Load at "plunkable" OAL [whatever that is] 24 hours later...
- Shoot

Let us know.
(I'm betting you have a PC/metal surface/slip problem on turning corner entering chamber)

[Nanookofthenorth]

I see this has got alot of attention, that's great.

Just some notes from looking over your replies. My OAL are not all over the place I'm not sure if I miscommunicated this they are all at 1.220. The powder coating is bad and I have ordered a different kind that most people seem to be using. I'm sizing the bullets after I PC them. I loaded some dummy rounds with some of my uncoated boolits (sized) and I'm having the same issues. So I'm assuming the gun does not like the bullet profile and or crimp. I have ordered a taper crimp die. I would just go ahead and order a different mold in reference to some you have suggested, but they are (as everything else) in short supply right now with prices through the roof.

So I've sent my barrel to Doug for him to throat. I'm going to change my powder coating (I do have some of Lee's allox lying around that I can try) use the taper crimp along with the lengthened throat and check back in.

[Nanookofthenorth]

What's the consensus for seating depth for this particular bullet? I saw 1.225 mentioned.

[mehavey]

Nanook: Your Sizing die (minus the decapping stem) makes the best taper die there is.
[you're just looking to reduce the mouth to 0.471-ish]

[BC17A]

What's the consensus for seating depth for this particular bullet? I saw 1.225 mentioned.

I seat the Lee 228 to an OAL of 1.210" for my 45's. I've read through this thread and some people are getting too deep into the proverbial weeds over something that's not as big an issue as it seems. Load to an OAL that fits and use the standard rules of load development. For comparison, the Hornady 230XTP is seated (Horn 9th) to 1.210" also, and it's length is nearly identical to the Lee 228, or within a few thousands. By the way, the minimum book spec for the 45 auto is 1.190".

283656

[Nanookofthenorth]

I seat the Lee 228 to an OAL of 1.210" for my 45's. I've read through this thread and some people are getting too deep into the proverbial weeds over something that's not as big an issue as it seems. Load to an OAL that fits and use the standard rules of load development. For comparison, the Hornady 230XTP is seated (Horn 9th) to 1.210" also, and it's length is nearly identical to the Lee 228, or within a few thousands. By the way, the minimum book spec for the 45 auto is 1.190".

283656

Which powder coat powder did you use for that?

[Larry Gibson]

I seat the Lee 228 to an OAL of 1.210" for my 45's. I've read through this thread and some people are getting too deep into the proverbial weeds over something that's not as big an issue as it seems. Load to an OAL that fits and use the standard rules of load development. For comparison, the Hornady 230XTP is seated (Horn 9th) to 1.210" also, and it's length is nearly identical to the Lee 228, or within a few thousands. By the way, the minimum book spec for the 45 auto is 1.190".

283656

Exactly......

[BC17A]

Which powder coat powder did you use for that?

Powder by the pound, black cherry.

[guy_with_boolits]

I also am a new reloader, loading for a 45 ACP 1911. Heres what you need to do to be able to analyze and solve chambering issues when reloading:

-use the barrel as a measuring device..it must be PERFECTLY CLEAN in the chamber or it will give false results..that means no powder flakes or lead in the chamber

-take the barrel out of the gun of course

-mark your loads and insert them into the barrel, yielding a witness mark that tells you what is hitting

-your cast boolits need to be sized after powder coating. I bought a lee sizer bushing and then had to sandpaper it out a few thousandths to size things to .4535 in order to get better accuracy and no leading

-the powder through expanding die flares the case. you MUST deflare the case or it wont chamber

-the LEE bullet seating die also does a taper crimp, which can deflare the case. However, I found that its basically impossible to get the taper crimp and the seating to occur in the same step accurately on mixed range brass on a progressive load master. I would recommend doing seating and taper crimp/deflaring in two separate steps. If you buy a separate taper crimp die, make sure it tapers just the case mouth and doesnt size the entire cartridge.

-you really should try and figure out what your barrel groove diameter is, so you can know what size your boolits need to be. YES IT DOES MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE. You can either measure it directly if you have the right tools (not calipers..need tenths ID measurement tools), or you can slug the barrel and measure the slug with a mic.

-If your rounds are getting stuck in the chamber, but ARE IN THE CHAMBER and are axially in line with the barrel, it has NOTHING to do with the slide release, loading from a mag, etc.... it means your rounds are too big somewhere (probably case mouth not being deflared right).

-I ended up buying a NOE expander die that would expand the case so that case boolits would not get their diameter crushed. This is not a problem with jacketed. (The LEE powder through expanding die only expands the top of the case). This has helped the boolit diameters be crushed less (as evidenced by pulling them and measuring their diameter). I highly recommend.

-You should drill out an empty case through the primer pocket, so you can use it as a test case that allows you to install a boolit, then push it out and measure its diameter, to confirm its not being crushed too much after seating.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Oddly enough, this thread makes me want another 1911.

[fastdadio]

Oddly enough, this thread makes me want another 1911.

Oddly enuff, I find it odd that you had a 1911, and let it get away.....
:kidding:

[BD]

I make no claims of being an expert in this area, and while I own a few 1911's, (including one that has been in my family for more than 100 years now), my total experience with them is really limited to a little less than 100 examples. But not being shy I'm going to throw my two cents into this discussion.
When JMB designed the 1911, he designed the barrel with a very short "throat". The beginnings of the lands were tapered to facilitate bullet feeding and accommodate slight variations in ammunition and some powder residue and copper fouling build up. I believe that what he had in mind was reliability. 1911s were all hand fit in those days and this was just one step in the process. I believe the issue we we're talking about here came about with the mass produced guns that became very common in the 1980's and '90s. At least that's when I first became aware of it. I believe the factories simply started skipping the step of throating the barrel as it was part of the "hand fitting" that the manufacturers were trying to get away from. In the '90's, when the majority of competition handgun shooters still used 1911s, this step was part of the usual "fluff and buff" that many factory guns received before being put to serious use. Since then, not so much. 1911's are more rare on the line these days and often at an action pistol match it will only be myself and one or two other old farts in the single stack division. So it's been a couple of years since anyone asked me to "fluff and Buff" a new 1911. And nearly as long since anyone from these forums has asked to borrow a reamer.
I wrote a sticky on this subject six or seven years ago which can still be found on the handguns forum on this site. If you are interested in this it's probably still worth the read. In the years since I wrote that DougGuy has made it his business, (literally), to become an expert at this and he really does a great job. At this point he's probably throated more 1911 barrels than I've ever seen, and from what I've seen of his work he's better at it than I ever was.
The bottom line is that if you look closely into the barrel of your new 1911 and the lands are square on the end at the chamber, I think you are crazy not to get it throated as JMB intended it to be. A simple test is to thoroughly clean your barrel and then fire one shot only using your cast boolit load. Then carefully unload and clear the weapon while holding it level and have a look in the barrel. If the ends of the lands are square you will very likely see the little strands of lead they shaved off as the boolit engraved.

[too many things]

i would say all things are covered .

one post was dead on
the manufactures dont want you to reload .
Glock is very good gun for reliable. buddy wanted some cast. the gun jambe twice , he sent it in. they sent it back the next week.
with a very large RED printed note
DO NOT USE RELOADS YOUR WARRANTY IS NO GOOD NOW

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Oddly enuff, I find it odd that you had a 1911, and let it get away.....
:kidding:

Back in 2013 I sold it to my eldest son. I was having some serious motor neuropathy issues and I could not use a firearm or tie a fishing knot. Regular infusions of immune globulin got my function back surprising me and my neurologist. When ammo became plentiful I started shooting again. Started casting too.

[DougGuy]

I make no claims of being an expert in this area, and while I own a few 1911's, (including one that has been in my family for more than 100 years now), my total experience with them is really limited to a little less than 100 examples. But not being shy I'm going to throw my two cents into this discussion.
When JMB designed the 1911, he designed the barrel with a very short "throat". The beginnings of the lands were tapered to facilitate bullet feeding and accommodate slight variations in ammunition and some powder residue and copper fouling build up. I believe that what he had in mind was reliability. 1911s were all hand fit in those days and this was just one step in the process. I believe the issue we we're talking about here came about with the mass produced guns that became very common in the 1980's and '90s. At least that's when I first became aware of it. I believe the factories simply started skipping the step of throating the barrel as it was part of the "hand fitting" that the manufacturers were trying to get away from. In the '90's, when the majority of competition handgun shooters still used 1911s, this step was part of the usual "fluff and buff" that many factory guns received before being put to serious use. Since then, not so much. 1911's are more rare on the line these days and often at an action pistol match it will only be myself and one or two other old farts in the single stack division. So it's been a couple of years since anyone asked me to "fluff and Buff" a new 1911. And nearly as long since anyone from these forums has asked to borrow a reamer.
I wrote a sticky on this subject six or seven years ago which can still be found on the handguns forum on this site. If you are interested in this it's probably still worth the read. In the years since I wrote that DougGuy has made it his business, (literally), to become an expert at this and he really does a great job. At this point he's probably throated more 1911 barrels than I've ever seen, and from what I've seen of his work he's better at it than I ever was.
The bottom line is that if you look closely into the barrel of your new 1911 and the lands are square on the end at the chamber, I think you are crazy not to get it throated as JMB intended it to be. A simple test is to thoroughly clean your barrel and then fire one shot only using your cast boolit load. Then carefully unload and clear the weapon while holding it level and have a look in the barrel. If the ends of the lands are square you will very likely see the little strands of lead they shaved off as the boolit engraved.

BD thanks for your words of wit and wisdom, and thanks for starting that thread so long ago. I can go back in that thread to where I just started taking this stuff in as a service offered, and then come today where I have pretty much dialed in my "philosophy" of how the throat should be, and what I want it to do when a boolit is fired into the bore.

SAAMI specs call for some taper in the throat, and for the longest time I used to see a little ring of freebore between the chamber mouth and the leade ins to the rifling but as you concurred, manufacturers couldn't be bothered to put enough -or any- freebore in there to enable the use of cast boolits without the need for either a compromise or a workaround. If all anybody ever loaded was .451" for the 1911, we would have never been having this conversation and I wouldn't have had a job.

After working over scads of 45ACP cylinders, they were usually pretty darn accurate, moreso after correcting the throats to .4525" but it dawned on me that there was about an inch of smooth parallel freebore, not unsrpported freejump like in a revolver cylinder shooting 38 special into 357 magnum chambers where the boolit has to travel a good ways with nothing to center it or guide it and then WHAM it hits the chamfer at the beginning of the cylinder throat and it gets aligned to exit the cylinder. I am talking about fully supported freebore, smooth parallel throat, and truth be told when it's sized right, these ACP cylinders are REALLY good shooters. I think it makes a great improvement in aligning and squaring the boolit to the barrel more than say a 45 Colt cylinder would do.

Then there came along a process called Taylor Throating which was adapted from the Weatherby rifle maintenance reaming of the throat, but it was adapted to the cylinder window of a revolver so that revolvers could be relieved of thread choke, improperly cut forcing cones or really rough forcing cones, so here a length of freebore about 1.5 times the caliber diameter is reamed into the barrel encompassing the forcing cone, some parallel supporting freebore, and a real gentle 1 degree leade in to the rifling. This worked really well for problematic revolvers, and it exposed what kind of improvement that freebore could make if it was in the barrel, concentric to the bore, and not just the cylinder. Ross Seyfried wrote extensively about the procedure many years ago.

From that, I have "borrowed" a little influence, and I put enough freebore in the throat of a 1911 barrel that the boolit can exit the case mouth, be fully supported by close tolerance freebore, and most or a great deal of the parallel sides, bearing surfaces if you will, are into the freebore where the boolit is held square, concentric with the bore, and perfectly on centerline when it encounters the leade ins to the rifling. It is actually a tool, a precision alignment sleeve, not just a cut for clearance to allow whatever boolit style or COA the shooter wants to use. It is basically the front half of the Taylor Throat profile, cut into an autopistol barrel without the forcing cone.

The longer freebore has a couple of benefits or drawbacks depending how you look at it, the first being there is less resistance to the boolit entering the bore, because it's freebore and not rifling yet, that pressure will not build as high as the same boolit fired right into an unthroated barrel. This is not a bad thing, but since velocity is dependent on pressure, loads can lose as much as 25-30 fps from the lower pressure. All that is necessary is to bump the powder charge a couple of tenths of a grain, or just live with the very tiny change in velocity.

Overall these barrels shoot lights out. I usually throat and crown them, send them out, and most of the time I never hear anything after that unless the shooter has more barrels they would like done. You know if there was a problem, I'd be the first they would be looking to talk to, so I know by that people are happy with the work and the results. Now I'm letting all my tricks of the trade out of da bag..


283965

[charlie b]

Just to point out something that may not be obvious to some.

Powder coating changes the ogive portion of the bullet just enough to make a different OAL necessary in some cases unless the barrel is throated. Even if you size after PC, the ogive section is still a little thicker. This is not just in some pistols, it occurs in rifles as well. All depends on the dimensions of throat and bullet after PC and sizing.

Since the OP's barrel is being throated that should solve the problem with PC and RN bullets.

But, I never did have good luck with the Lee 1R mold. Can't remember much as the last time I used one was back in the 80's :) Most of the time I shoot either TC or SWC cast bullets in my 1911's.

[Forrest r]

I just find it odd the op couldn't get that lee 1r to function. PC has nothing to do with it. Bought a cheap lee 1r mold for the 45acp's decades ago to keep around for a 230gr bullet. Ran that bullet thru 15/20? different 1911's with no issues. Finely sold that mold off along with a bunch of others, I prefer +/- 200gr bullets in the 1911's.

Been thinning the herd and I'm down to 3 molds for the 45acp's/1911 along with selling off all the 1911's except for 2. Both are box stock springfield armory range officers. They are both setup with burris fastfire III's on them.
https://i.imgur.com/8NOmyg6.jpg

Was digging around last week and found 3000 wolf lp primers laying around I didn't know I had. I have a bunch 14/15#? of clays doing nothing so I decided to work up some loads looking for blammo ammo/dirt clod killers for range play. I used all 3 cast bullets that I make and used 4.0gr of clays & 4.3gr of clays for test loads. Nothing fancy, sat down at a rolling table/cart @ 50ft with a rest, fired up the reddot and did 5-shot goups/tests with the test loads.
https://i.imgur.com/GcK8If3.jpg

The black outer ring is 2", the white inner ring is 1 1/2" & the reddot is a 3moa dot. The h&g and cramer bullets did .7xx" outside to outside and the mihec 200gr hp did 1" outside to outside measurements. Figured I'd try shooting a 5-shot group offhand/1 handed @ 50ft with that mihec 200gr hp/4.3gr of clay just to see what the recovery time would be. Took 25/30 seconds to shoot those 5 shots and managed a 2" outside to outside group. Not the greatest by any means but it told me what I needed to know.
https://i.imgur.com/N17hNIE.jpg

Anyone can load/shoot/use the h&g design, the cramer f5 is designed like the lyman 452488 and nose measures .250" long. Both the cramer and the mihec bullets use a short oal of 1.180". The H&G clone uses the standard 1.250" oal.
https://i.imgur.com/HUsEUAL.jpg

I'm sure doug does good work, myself I just don't see the need to alter the bbl on a springfield ro. Mine is box stock & I haven't had any feeding or jamming issues with it and the 10+ different bullet designs I've ran thru it so far (same bullets pc'd & plain/same oal).

As far as accuracy goes, don't know if there would be much improvement over not having the bbl worked on. I'm the weak link when it comes to the accuracy of these 1911's.

[guy_with_boolits]

The black outer ring is 2", the white inner ring is 1 1/2" & the reddot is a 3moa dot. The h&g and cramer bullets did .7xx" outside to outside and the mihec 200gr hp did 1" outside to outside measurements. Figured I'd try shooting a 5-shot group offhand/1 handed @ 50ft with that mihec 200gr hp/4.3gr of clay just to see what the recovery time would be. Took 25/30 seconds to shoot those 5 shots and managed a 2" outside to outside group. Not the greatest by any means but it told me what I needed to know.
I'm sure doug does good work, myself I just don't see the need to alter the bbl on a springfield ro. Mine is box stock & I haven't had any feeding or jamming issues with it and the 10+ different bullet designs I've ran thru it so far (same bullets pc'd & plain/same oal).

As far as accuracy goes, don't know if there would be much improvement over not having the bbl worked on. I'm the weak link when it comes to the accuracy of these 1911's.

wow so with the MIHEC 200gn hollow point you are getting 1" outer to outer at 50ft (16 yards) so thats more like say 0.6" center to center? So about 3.6 MOA?? Thats impressive.Do you have any other data for that load at various distances? Curious how it maintains at 25yds and 50yds. (Presumably if you dont have a ransom rest or a rest that doesnt move the pistol between shots its going to be tricking maintaining aiming shot to shot)

What alloy are you using? And are you expanding the case? (NOE?)

Ive gotten things to 6.2 MOA at 8 yards with that boolit:

Range pickup jacketed pistol lead with approx 2% tin added.
5.0gn HP-38
Powder coated smokes blue 400F 20mins with water quench after bake
0.456 NOE expander
MP 200gn hollow point mold with round hollow point
Sized to 0.4535"
COAL 1.185"
1911 5" barrel
Mixed range pickup brass
Deflared after seating
Does not seem to be significant/any leading after 100 rounds

Its extremely difficult for me to get good data as distances go up because I'm just using the GI iron sights and I only have a big sandbag as a rest. I cant take myself out of the equation. If I got 4 MOA @ 16 yds I would be doing backflips.

[44MAG#1]

That is very good shooting for sure. Better than most I've seen at the range.
But, the problem in diagnosing shooting ability is difficult at best. If one would look at the group center to center at. 6 inches that would be 3.4377 MOA. If by some stroke of luck that degree of accuracy would continue as the range increases that would equate to a group of 3.599 inches center to center at 100 yards or 1.799 inches at 50 yards. That would be on the verge of a very minute chance one could do that except on a day one could be a human version of a Ransom Rest.

[Forrest r]

It's not hard to find loads for the 45acp @ 50ft. Nothing more then the usual range scrap I use for +/- 99% of my shooting needs (8/9bhn). I use a lyman m-die for those .452" bullets and mixed range brass.

Those are only 5-shot groups, I'm sure they would open up if I shot my usual 10-shot test groups.

Plan on making a pile of these 4.3gr loads using the mihec 200gr hp and the H&G clone. I'll end up going more testing at longer distances with them. Really all's I was interested in was making a load for the bowling pin table, steel & dueling trees @ 50ft.

The only reason I posted what the results were with the clays loads was to show the op what other people are doing with box stock springfield armory 1911's. Hopefully he will have better success with his reloads after the bbl work is done.

[Nanookofthenorth]

Just to conclude this

I got my barrel back from Doug

Loaded to 1.210 oal and .469 taper crimp

Even with my ****ty powder coating they run great no feeding issues and they shoot great groups.

I tested feeding them into a gen 3 45acp Glock and it got the same malfunction my 1911 was getting before the throat work.

Great work Doug thank you.

[mehavey]

[Broken Record Alert]
Thin film ALOX on the bullet ogive is the great leveler in such chambers.

[DougGuy]

Been thinning the herd and I'm down to 3 molds for the 45acp's/1911 along with selling off all the 1911's except for 2. Both are box stock springfield armory range officers. They are both setup with burris fastfire III's on them.
https://i.imgur.com/8NOmyg6.jpg

As far as accuracy goes, don't know if there would be much improvement over not having the bbl worked on. I'm the weak link when it comes to the accuracy of these 1911's.

This would make for a very fair comparison of throated vs. non throated. If you read what I wrote about the function of freebore as an alignment tool this facilitates a consistent engagement in the rifling which the abrupt entry into the rifling of the stock barrel cannot accomplish. Those groups you show are good but it wouldn't surprise me to see groups out of the throated barrel tighten to the point that you realize that it wasn't -just- your shooting that determined their size.

[slam45]

i don't know the shape of lee boolits from the numbers... glocks will fight you when running semi wad cutters.. first thing i would try is an AOL of 1.250"... i currently load for 6 45acp's and use that length in all of them with almost any boolit... might have to shorten it a bit if you are running a big flat point ( over 0.28") my G30 will shoot the lights out at 1.25" and 0.469" and run for days with no issues... none of my 45's like them much shorter... these days i run 200 and 230 RNFP with a 0.20" flat point... keep working it you will win... 45acp is among the greatest rounds ever thought up...

i went and looked at the lee 228r1 ...so most of what i said is meaningless with the nose shape of this boolit... I'd get a different mold, as the nose profile of this boolit is going to be more trouble that it is worth... and i don't see how it would powder coat well at all as it is too big in the nose as cast... most likely would work better in a revolver...


Just to conclude this

I got my barrel back from Doug

Loaded to 1.210 oal and .469 taper crimp

Even with my ****ty powder coating they run great no feeding issues and they shoot great groups.

I tested feeding them into a gen 3 45acp Glock and it got the same malfunction my 1911 was getting before the throat work.

Great work Doug thank you.

[Forrest r]

This would make for a very fair comparison of throated vs. non throated. If you read what I wrote about the function of freebore as an alignment tool this facilitates a consistent engagement in the rifling which the abrupt entry into the rifling of the stock barrel cannot accomplish. Those groups you show are good but it wouldn't surprise me to see groups out of the throated barrel tighten to the point that you realize that it wasn't -just- your shooting that determined their size.

Thank you for taking the time to reply doug. I absolutely believe that your quality work would do wonders for accuracy. I just believe my bbl doesn't need it.

Work with me on this 1:

Outside to outside groups need the bullet diameter to be subtracted from them to find the "true" size of the group. Most bullets leave a hole +/- 20/1000th,s" less then the bullet diameter, swc are typically less but I still like to use 20/1000th's. Hence the # .430" for the bullet holes. I have spent a little time over the decades scoring targets, used gauges like these along with calipers to get an idea of what hole a bullet design would leave in paper compared to the bullets diameter. The 44cal gauge is missing, let a guy borrow it and never got it back. Anyway you can use whatever # for what size hole the bullet leaves in the target, whatever your comfortable with.
https://i.imgur.com/Yy2txIZ.jpg

The 3 bullets I used for that test. along with how much the shoulders/full diameter of the bullet sticks out of the case.
https://i.imgur.com/lZyBjGD.jpg

My bbl measures .906" from the top of the hood to where the step/leade in the chamber begins. Using minus .0002" pin gauges the .451" pin fits into the leade and is tight just before it hits the lands. The .452" pin fits into the leade and will stop +/- 1/2 way to the start of the lands (tapered). Nothing more then the typical bbl springfield puts out.
https://i.imgur.com/DYRqzqY.jpg

The mihec 200gr hp did a 1" outside to outside group or a true .670" group. It has a 1.25R nose profile & I have to seat that bullet with an oal of 1.180" to get it to feed flawlessly. Seating the bullet that deep means there's no shoulder of the bullet sticking above the rim (see picture above) of the case. It has to jump +/- 10/1000th's align in the leade of the bbl. This bullet should be able to benefit from your bbl work.

The cramer hb swc did a .763" outside to outside group or a true .335" group. That bullets shoulder sticks out +/- 20/1000th's above the top of the case. This puts the .452" bullet's shoulder into the .452" leade of the bbl. There is no freebore with this bullet and it is aligned in the bbl.

The mihec h&g 68 (actually 69) clone is also sized to .452" and has +/- 20/1000th's of the bullet's shoulder sticking above the top of the case. And just like the cramer bullet's .452" shoulder the mihec swc's shoulder is jammed into the .452" tapered leade. And again bullet to bbl alignment. That mihec bullet did a .744" outside to outside group or a true .315" group.

Those swc bullets or any other bullet I use that has the body of the bullet (.452" diameter) sticking above the top of the case +/- 20/1000th's will align/center in the leade of the chamber just like what you're talking about.

At the end of the day if I really wanted to cut down on the group size of the mihec 200gr bullet I'd send the bbl to you. If I wanted to cut down on the group size of the swc's I'd use match brass and a different target. The target I used has a 2" black outer ring and a 1 1/2" white inner circle. The red dots have a 3moa dot which means I'm trying to center a 1/2" dot in a 1 1/2" circle. That leaves the dot centered and a 1/2" circle of white around the red dot. If I switched to a 3/4" or 1" round target that 1/2" red dot would have clearer/easier to judge 1/8" to 1/4" outer ring. I learned for decades of shooting iron sighted target rifles that it's best when using a round sight to have the smallest outer detail ring you can clearly see to center your sight. That's why I end up with a bunch of these for the smaller redfield & lyman sights.
https://i.imgur.com/150rfpc.jpg

And these for the rws, anschutz, 52d, 40x & savage target rifles
https://i.imgur.com/QFSovuR.jpg

You say throating the bbl will aid in bullet alignment increasing accuracy.

I say the .452" bullet is already aligning in the .452" leade. That's it's my poor choices in using mixed range brass and the wrong target for testing accuracy.

[DougGuy]

Thank you for taking the time to reply doug. I absolutely believe that your quality work would do wonders for accuracy. I just believe my bbl doesn't need it.

You say throating the bbl will aid in bullet alignment increasing accuracy.

I say the .452" bullet is already aligning in the .452" leade.

Well, can't argue with those groups for one, and for two, you are better off than most getting ANY bit of a .452" proud of the case mouth to plunk with the RO barrels.

Jerry Keefer built the 9mm that won jeez how many matches? .100" parallel freebore and 1 degree leade angle, this school of barrel throating comes with it's own merits, and it's not in your case a "need" as in something won't plunk or fails to feed, but an addition to the barrel geometry that improves by smoothing the path the boolit takes to the rifling. You use a lot of apertures and school yourself on how well the aperture fills the target dot leaving only enough around the edges of the globe for alignment.

My school of barrel throating focuses on the alignment of the boolit between case mouth and rifling. If you think there is no room for improvement then throating the barrel should not improve groups right? Same as switching from plain iron sights to the peep sights? Or is it?

Stock 1911 when it fires, how far does the case expand in the chamber? What is the ID of the case mouth once expanded? Ok now how is this expanded case mouth supporting the sides of the boolit that aren't yet in the "throat?" It's more or less random how the boolit aligns in the throat, this is what the longer freebore removes. It is very close to boolit diameter and is a LOT more precise than the expanded case mouth. It fully supports the boolit between case mouth and leade ins, something which the stock barrel cannot do.

This is what it adds to the barrel, I could get away with reaming throats just enough to get certain style boolits to plunk, you know, customer sends dummy round, I ream the throat tiny bit at a time until the dummy plunks, and then what? How much freebore is in the barrel now? Enough to fully support the bearing surfaces of the boolit? I hardly think so. Jerry Keefer knew this longer throat was not about getting rounds to plunk, he was squeezing every bit of boolit alignment he could get into the barrel itself.

[Forrest r]

Well, can't argue with those groups for one, and for two, you are better off than most getting ANY bit of a .452" proud of the case mouth to plunk with the RO barrels.

Jerry Keefer built the 9mm that won jeez how many matches? .100" parallel freebore and 1 degree leade angle, this school of barrel throating comes with it's own merits, and it's not in your case a "need" as in something won't plunk or fails to feed, but an addition to the barrel geometry that improves by smoothing the path the boolit takes to the rifling. You use a lot of apertures and school yourself on how well the aperture fills the target dot leaving only enough around the edges of the globe for alignment.

My school of barrel throating focuses on the alignment of the boolit between case mouth and rifling. If you think there is no room for improvement then throating the barrel should not improve groups right? Same as switching from plain iron sights to the peep sights? Or is it?

Stock 1911 when it fires, how far does the case expand in the chamber? What is the ID of the case mouth once expanded? Ok now how is this expanded case mouth supporting the sides of the boolit that aren't yet in the "throat?" It's more or less random how the boolit aligns in the throat, this is what the longer freebore removes. It is very close to boolit diameter and is a LOT more precise than the expanded case mouth. It fully supports the boolit between case mouth and leade ins, something which the stock barrel cannot do.

This is what it adds to the barrel, I could get away with reaming throats just enough to get certain style boolits to plunk, you know, customer sends dummy round, I ream the throat tiny bit at a time until the dummy plunks, and then what? How much freebore is in the barrel now? Enough to fully support the bearing surfaces of the boolit? I hardly think so. Jerry Keefer knew this longer throat was not about getting rounds to plunk, he was squeezing every bit of boolit alignment he could get into the barrel itself.

Been saying the same thing in the rimfire section for awhile now in the 50yd br thread. Keep the leade clean/smooth/polished.

Myself I like to use jb bore paste to break the edge where the chamber ends/leade begins (the step edge) and polish the leade and tapered part of the lands.

I also like to treat the locking grooves & bottom lugs with moly after they are broke in. Along with the front of the bbl and bbl bushing. This reduces wear and makes for a consistent lockup shot after shot after shot.

https://i.imgur.com/nvTTSXH.jpg

So ya, the leade area get hit with 1200grit jb bore paste from time to time to keep it smooth. But I also do maintenance on the outside of the bbl, namely treat for wear.

Anyway that the 1st thing I check is the diameter of the leade of the bbl with a minus pin gauge. If the .452" pin would not of fit I would of simply sized the bullets to .451". As long as the bullet is tightly centered in the leade of the bbl ( .452" bullet in .452" leade/.451" bullet in .451" leade/etc) accuracy will be there as long as the 1911 has consistent ignition & a consistent lockup.

Interestingly enough the springfield ro chambered in 45acp has an extremely short leade with sharp angles on the cuts of the lands which is excellent for accuracy with swc bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/DYRqzqY.jpg

The springfield ro chambered in 9mm has a long leade and long tapered angles on the cut of the lands.
https://i.imgur.com/cuUFfkK.jpg

That 9mm bbl extremely well with +/- 2r rn or a rn flat pointed bullet.

[Electrod47]

This thread is amazing. Thank you Castboolits for assembling such participants.

[charlie b]

I also like the discussion and it confirms a lot of what I have seen in reloading for pistols as well as rifles.

I have found the best accuracy in my .308 is with bore riding bullets that have an interference fit in the barrel and the driving band is jammed in the rifling, ie, the bullet is aligned by the rifle throat/bore.

[BD]

Forrest r, Your pin gauges, along with the seating depth of the H&G #68 tell me that your barrel was throated. As I use the term, not "Taylor throated" which is how I would describe the job DougGuy does. I suppose this was done at the factory. This was rarely the case with the Springfields I encountered in the 90's and early 2000's. In those barrels the .451- gauge would stick just at the end of the chamber and the .452- pin would "clunk" on the end of the chamber.