Recommendation for for 45-90 elk boolit

[HighUintas]

Here is what I have:

A 24-in barrel 45-90 and black powder. For bullets, I currently have some Missouri bullet company Buffalo number one bullets reported to be hardball alloy at 18 bhn that I have re-lubed with modified emmerts. I also have some 457193 bullets that I believe are between 9 and 12 bhn.

I am the type of hunter who doesn't take a shot on an elk that's anything other than broadside or slightly quartering.

Given that information, what would the impact velocity limitations be for these two bullets? Also, what is the bullet weight limitation for this type of shot on an elk? Would the original 300 grain Express bullet work with this type of shot and what would the velocity limitation on that bullet be if it were one of the same two hardnesses that I have listed above for the other bullets?

[country gent]

You may find the hardball alloy to hard for best accuracy. I would go with the 9-12 bhn bullets they should work fine. A 300 grn bullet at 1300-1400 fps should do a great job.

Another route to go is the old Buffalo hunters paper patched bullet cast from very soft lead. I cast mine in a brooks adjustable mould at 530 grns in 20-1 lead tin. 2 wraps of cole paper the soft bullet never touches the bore so no leading. From my 45-90s 34" barrel at 1200 fps, recovered from the 200 yd sand backstop with about .150 of the base intact and the nose is mushroomed to around 1" in diameter atoll weighing around 510 grns

[sharps4590]

Are you talking about a bullet for an 1886 or a Sharps? For my Sharps I use an NEI, 480 gr. cast bullet. It looks a lot like an elongated KTSWC. For an '86 I suspect you're going to be limited by action length.

[HighUintas]

Thanks both for the help!

Yes I'm shooting an 1886. I've never heard of anyone shooting a PP bullet out of a lever but I guess a guy could single shot it!

I was primarily wondering because I have seen the Lyman 457122 for sale a few times (I don't cast anything yet) and I like the idea of shooting that for regular fun and saving my precious WW, but also wonder if that bullet would be sufficient out to 200yd with BP on an elk.

[sharps4590]

I'm not familiar with Lyman's 457122 but I do have the 193 mold. I killed a few deer and hogs with it before I acquired the NEI mold and had nothing but good results. Nothing like the bang/flops of 480 NEI but never had anything go very far. If the 122 is the 300 gr. bullet, I'd go with the 193 every time. It will have better sectional density and though the 300 gr. bullet will start out faster, the 405-420 gr. bullet will retain both velocity and energy longer. And I admit, I am not a fan of light for caliber bullets.

As far as the ballistics, they will be in almost any loading manual.

[missionary5155]

In real life thousands x thousands of Buff and other critters have been well thwaped with 45 Caliber cast no harder than 40-1 up to range scrap using BP.
If you smack any elk with a 400 or heavier soft cast in the lung / heart zone it will expire. If I could I would also want to punch a shoulder or front leg just to immobilize that big critter if you are in the hills or thick pines.
Last elk my son shot was at 300 yards with a lowly 180 grainer from our 30-06. Through both lungs. Big cow half trotted 50 yards, spun 3 times and dropped. A 400 grain caliber .45 would have done the same.

[Tar Heel]

I use the Gould 330gr Express HP bullet over a case full of compressed FFG powder. It is the Lyman mold 457122SC. Cast at 20:1 and driven to 1600 fps, it expands beautifully.

283510

https://youtu.be/8DPkrY5w6rQ

[HighUintas]

Yes, it is the 330 grain hollow point bullet. The slightly lighter weight hollow point is something I wasn't sure about for a thick skinned elk.

[waksupi]

I would not use a 300 gr. bullet for elk. The old express rifles had a lot of failure, due to insufficient penetration. The old 405 gr. Government would be my first choice. They kill elk dead.

[Tar Heel]

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellExpansionOfCastHP.htm

[HighUintas]

Well hmmmm

[Tar Heel]

Shot placement is half the equation.

[elk hunter]

Having been an elk hunter for about 60 years and having taken a fair number of them I have some thoughts on what constitutes an elk rifle and the proper bullet. First, depending on the rifling twist of your 86 you may have to use a lighter "express bullet" in order to stabilize it. I like to use bullets that are on the heavier side for the caliber, especially on elk, as I want penetration. In my experience I get a much better blood trail when I get an exit wound. With the Lyman Great Plains style cast bullet of about 400 grains from my 50 caliber muzzleloader using 100 to 120 grains of 2 F black I've only had one pass through and that was a neck shot. Bullet placement is critical but, perfect placement isn't always what we get under field conditions. The one shot dead right there shot is rare even with my 375 H&H. So again I'll just say I want complete penetration and heavy for caliber bullets generally give me that. Of course your mileage may vary. Good luck follows those who are prepared. Hope you get an elk.

[HighUintas]

Having been an elk hunter for about 60 years and having taken a fair number of them I have some thoughts on what constitutes an elk rifle and the proper bullet. First, depending on the rifling twist of your 86 you may have to use a lighter "express bullet" in order to stabilize it. I like to use bullets that are on the heavier side for the caliber, especially on elk, as I want penetration. In my experience I get a much better blood trail when I get an exit wound. With the Lyman Great Plains style cast bullet of about 400 grains from my 50 caliber muzzleloader using 100 to 120 grains of 2 F black I've only had one pass through and that was a neck shot. Bullet placement is critical but, perfect placement isn't always what we get under field conditions. The one shot dead right there shot is rare even with my 375 H&H. So again I'll just say I want complete penetration and heavy for caliber bullets generally give me that. Of course your mileage may vary. Good luck follows those who are prepared. Hope you get an elk.

Mine is a new manufacturer rifle, so the twist is a 20. I have an accurate load with the Missouri bullet company 405 grain bullets I mentioned in my first post. So if need be, I can definitely use that but was wondering about the max range of that bullet given a certain velocity.that load has a muzzle velocity of just under 1500 feet per second.

I agree on sectional density and penetration being important. In my '06 I like to use the regular cup and core bullets, but go heavy for caliber and not push them too fast. That seems to give a very good mushroom and penetration on elk. This being my first go around with large bore cast bullets though, I'm still trying to learn about the heavier bullets ability to penetrate. I haven't been able to find any information on whether you get generally the same amount of penetration for a given sectional density throughout all different caliber bullets, or if you would tend to get more penetration from a larger caliber bullet of a given sectional density. I was thinking the latter might be true, but not sure.

I don't think I'm in a position to actually get a mold and pot yet, so maybe I'll get some lighter and heavier bullets on my next order and do some testing

[gunseller]

The 405 grain military load in 45/70 would go through a buffalo at 500 yards.
Steve

[HighUintas]

Well maybe I'll get the Gould express 457122 mold to shoot for fun to save lead, and just buy some commercial 405gr bullets.

Any suggestions on the highest quality 405gr bullets?

I was thinking about ordering some more MBC buffalo #1 in their softer alloy, but the box that I have has way too many culls in it from air holes near the surface and slag sticking to the bottom edges. Do people usually have better luck with MBC or should I look elsewhere for higher quality consistency?

[elk hunter]

I've shot quite a few of the 330 grain Goulds hollow point in 45-70 rifles and they worked well but, I never shot any game with them. Another less expensive option would be the Lee 340 grain RNFP. Right now moulds of any description are hard to find. The only commercial cast rifle bullets I've tried were the "Oregon Trail laser cast" 45 caliber, 350 grain, RNFP, plain base. They're harder than the proverbial woodpecker lips, so you won't get any expansion, but they are very accurate in my 500-450 double at about 1900 fps. I know they make a 405 grain, 45 caliber bullet as well. I haven't bought any of the Oregon Train bullets in a few years but I assume they are still in business as they still have a web site.

[Norske]

Buffalo Bore loads cast bullets, see their choices, then match their velocity in your 45-90. As for bullet placement, buy a copy of Craig Boddington's "The Perfect Shot, North America" (I think Amazon sells it).

[BHill]

Shot placement is half the equation.

True, but it’s the bigger half. :bigsmyl2:

[hpbear101]

My dad used the Gould 330HP/457122 in 45-70 (1886 smokeless) for all of his elk hunting and never had a problem (he always took neck shots no matter what caliber). The Gould was the go to 45-70 hunting bullet of the past and I see no reason why it wouldn't perform in the 45-90. Keep in mind that at BP velocities the 45-70 or 45-90 isn't all that flat shooting out to 200 yards so be prepared to make appropriate sighting adjustments over that distance. I have dad's molds to include the 457193 and 457122, as well as the Lee 405HB and 340FP, all shoot great in my original 1886 45-70s and all would be adequate for elk at appropriate distances.

Your second question was a recommendation for best quality 405 grain bullets. I shoot mostly my own cast bullets but I do like Lasercast as well in a variety (to include .45) of calibers, however if you are shooting BP I would look for a 405 with appropriate BP lube (Montana Precision Swaging and probably others). For smokeless loads I think you will find most of the commercial cast bullets will be just fine, BP loads will require an appropriate BP lube (SPG most common).

[HighUintas]

My dad used the Gould 330HP/457122 in 45-70 (1886 smokeless) for all of his elk hunting and never had a problem (he always took neck shots no matter what caliber). The Gould was the go to 45-70 hunting bullet of the past and I see no reason why it wouldn't perform in the 45-90. Keep in mind that at BP velocities the 45-70 or 45-90 isn't all that flat shooting out to 200 yards so be prepared to make appropriate sighting adjustments over that distance. I have dad's molds to include the 457193 and 457122, as well as the Lee 405HB and 340FP, all shoot great in my original 1886 45-70s and all would be adequate for elk at appropriate distances.

Your second question was a recommendation for best quality 405 grain bullets. I shoot mostly my own cast bullets but I do like Lasercast as well in a variety (to include .45) of calibers, however if you are shooting BP I would look for a 405 with appropriate BP lube (Montana Precision Swaging and probably others). For smokeless loads I think you will find most of the commercial cast bullets will be just fine, BP loads will require an appropriate BP lube (SPG most common).

Thanks for the info.

Yea my "plan" to be proficient at 200 is yet a dream with this gun. I just figure if I get a mold I ought to get one that would do the job for the outer limits, should I get there.

I am testing out BP on my MBC bullets tomorrow to see what happens. They're about 0.002" under groove diameter, so hopefully they seal ok. I lubed them with emmerts. Probably not enough velocity for good expansion on game with that hard of bullet though.

I was looking at some of the offerings at BACO. Looks like they have a 20:1 alloy bullet with BP lube (spg, I think).

I think Montana bullet works might also do a softer alloy, but can't remember.

If I can't find any soft alloy bullets I want to go with, I'll just do the regular hardball ones that are offered, like what I have from MBC, and shoot a duplex. That's what I have been shooting those with and it works well.

[sharps4590]

On my Shiloh Sharps in 45-90 the difference between 100 yards and 200 yards is 20 clicks up on the Browning hunters tang sight. That's shooting a 480 gr. bullet over 80 grs. of BP so obviously it won't be the same with lighter bullets over smokeless. But the adjustment is going to be quite a bit.

[Chill Wills]

For hunting with BP cartridge rifles - meaning a lot of bullet drop, start by sighting in at 150 yards -this is never a mistake for elk.

You can adjust this to to fit your real world load and rifle after sighting in and then shooting at 50y, 100y and 200y to see where the holes go! Maybe 125 yards with your load and a max of 175y as your limit - point blank range - is better. You just have to see.

I have hunting experience with BP and the 45-70 Govt. and this has worked out for me. I have five 45-90's. All singleshots set up for NRA target matches and being very heavy rifles, I never even considered hunting them. Really, out in the field, making hits on large game, the 45-70 and 45-90 are going to be very close and powder choice may even close the gap completely. A Win 1886 in 45-90 would be a top choice (BPCR) for a one rifle man hunting western game. This is as true now as it was 130 years ago. Especially your rifle with that 1 in 20 twist. As you know, that faster twist gives you the heavy bullet option for the larger game like elk and moose.

[NEKVT]

.......A Win 1886 in 45-90 would be a top choice (BPCR) for a one rifle man hunting western game. This is as true now as it was 130 years ago.......

"Now that the buffalo have gone, and the Sharps rifle by which they were destroyed is also gone, almost all ranchmen use some form of repeater. Personally I prefer the Winchester, using the new model, with a .45-caliber bullet of 300 grains, backed by 90 grains of powder, or else falling back on my faithful old stand-by, the 45-75. But truth is that all good modern rifles are efficient weapons; it is the man behind the gun that makes the difference. An inch or two in trajectory or a second or two in rapidity of fire is as nothing compared to sureness of eye and steadiness of hand."

- T. Roosevelt in "Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail", 1888.

[sharps4590]

I started hunting with black powder cartridges back in the 80's. Where I was living/hunting determined what I sighted the rifle for. As I almost exclusively hunt the woods here in Missouri and hunted the timber when we lived in Wyoming the 100 yard sight in was more than adequate. Farthest shot I ever had was about 125 yards and that was on the other, eastern side of Wyoming from where we lived. In Missouri a LOT of my dead game could be measured in feet.

[HighUintas]

There's lots of great advice here. Thanks for the help everyone.

I don't think a mold is in my immediate future, but this has given me a lot to think about.

[YippyKiYay]

I have taken a few heard with 2 different 45-70's. A GORGEOUS Ruger #1 liked Lee 405Gr HB cast from WW's or Lyman #2. My Marlin likes 300gr REmington HPs, with a healthy dose of 3031 behind it. One of my few Bang Flop's was with the 45-70 Marlin.

Good luck with your elk, I drug my feet on getting in draw paperwork, hoping for 2022.
Yip

[lobogunleather]

My .45-70 rifles are all original Springfield trap doors. My .45-90 is an original Winchester 1886. I also have an original Sharps .45 Express for which I load using .45-90 brass (a little bit short, but it works just fine).

I have three molds, Lee C459-500F, Lee 459-405F, and Lee 459-340F. Cast with wheel weights they all drop at .460" and I lube and load them without sizing. In the .45-90 my hunting load is the 340-grain cast of wheel weights and leaving the muzzle at about 1400 FPS. I have taken 3 Colorado elk with that load (a nice bull and two good cows), all at estimated 50-80 yards, all heart-lung shots, all full penetration with exit wounds, and all on the ground within a hundred feet of the spot they were shot.

I have never recovered the bullet from such kills so I can't talk about any expansion that may or may not have happened. One shot was at a slightly quartering angle, punched through a rib on entry, through the lungs, and broke the off-side leg on exiting.

Within reasonable range a .45 slug in the boiler works will get the job done much better than many other choices. I wouldn't over-think it, just find the load your rifle likes to shoot well and do your part on the hunt.

[Win94ae]

Mine is a new manufacturer rifle, so the twist is a 20. I have an accurate load with the Missouri bullet company 405 grain bullets I mentioned in my first post. So if need be, I can definitely use that but was wondering about the max range of that bullet given a certain velocity.that load has a muzzle velocity of just under 1500 feet per second.

I agree on sectional density and penetration being important. In my '06 I like to use the regular cup and core bullets, but go heavy for caliber and not push them too fast. That seems to give a very good mushroom and penetration on elk. This being my first go around with large bore cast bullets though, I'm still trying to learn about the heavier bullets ability to penetrate. I haven't been able to find any information on whether you get generally the same amount of penetration for a given sectional density throughout all different caliber bullets, or if you would tend to get more penetration from a larger caliber bullet of a given sectional density. I was thinking the latter might be true, but not sure.

I don't think I'm in a position to actually get a mold and pot yet, so maybe I'll get some lighter and heavier bullets on my next order and do some testing

Here is a video on the subject.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSq7d3GQo4I

Just go to 3:36 on the video. :)

[Bigslug]

HighUintas,

My Dad's the buffalo rifle addict in the family. From what I've seen in his various .45-70 & longer family rifles, the RCBS 405 FN GC is a consistently accurate performer in anything we've shot it in, and it does have a very wide following. True, it's more of an LFN than a WFN, so while it won't "thump" quite as hard, it will probably fly truer past 150 yards than the "school bus nosed" bullets will. Got to watch him kill his 2014 San Bernardino Mountains buck with a pair of them at about 1900 fps from a Marlin '95 (Dad misinterpreted the reaction from the first fatal hit and killed the deer twice inside of ten seconds:mrgreen:)

The gas check will give you a bit more flexibility with hot loads combined with softer alloys, but with harder stuff, I've seen it do sub-MOA across several platforms. If gas checks aren't your thing, plenty of choices with that general profile in plain-base format.