Follow Up - the Lyman 32 Wadcutter Mould

[Green Frog]

There is an ongoing thread discussing the use of the discontinued Hornady 32 HBWC bullet in 32 S&W L and H&R, and this side note came up. To prevent accusations of a hijack, I’ll go ahead and start this new thread to discuss another, closely related, bullet. In this context I'd like to explore use of and performance with the Lyman 313492 wadcutter design. It is unusual in that it has a long front band which serves as a sort of bore rider because it is set out in front of the front of the case. This is pretty much unique in the world of wad cutter ammo. Who else besides richhodg66 and myself is loading with this, and what kind of results are you getting?

[Quote Originally Posted by richhodg66]
Didn't realize they were discontinued. I have quite a few. I also have a coffee can full of the Lyman .32 wadcutter that's not designed to be flush seated, which my Dad cast, and I have the mold, so should be good for .32 wadcutter loads which seem like the perfect plinking and small game combo. [End Quote]


Richhodg66, I have that same mould in a DC from Ideal. It looks like it ought to shoot very well, but so far I haven’t found a loading for it that any of my 32s really likes. I was planning on trying to go with the tumble lube wad cutter design from Lee (now regrettably discontinued) but since I have that mould and you are using it too, maybe I should give it another look. The similarly designed 313445 (SWC) might also deserve another look... do you have this mould too?

Froggie

[TCFAN]

I have a copy of the lyman boolit 313492 made by NOE. I have some test boolits loaded up in 32 H&R cases to shoot in my SP101 327 mag.Knee surgery has not yet allowed me to test the loads.
I think the 313492 and the 358432 are called type III wad cutters. I have never had much luck with the 358432 in 38 special and just some casual shooting with the NOE 313492 which NOE calls 315-90 WC was not to good in 327 cases.
I am looking forward to seeing some tests done with this boolit.

[Dunross]

I have the 313492 mold, but have not yet cast with it.

The man I bought it from years ago said he'd shot a lot of them from 32Long revolvers and that so long as I didn't try to hotrod them they'd perform well for me. Being as it's a wadcutter I don't see the need to drive them hard. They ought to penetrate well enough at more moderate velocities.

[Green Frog]

The whole concept of a wad cutter bullet centers on having a bore diameter cylindrical bullet. In theory it would appear that having a bore diameter band of lead not influenced by seating and crimping inside the case should yield increased accuracy. I'm really not sure why I'm having trouble getting it to work.

The Lyman 313445 is essentially the same design with a minimal SWC nose added. It seems to give better target accuracy in my guns, but I can't understand why. It appears that there is a lot more art (or magic??) than science going on here.

Keep those comments coming. What is working for you?

Froggie

[Outpost75]

I am using Accurate 31-109D which is the 31-114D with its nose truncated to a .25" meplat as an ogival wadcutter. So far not gilt - edged target grouping, but very effective on varmints with 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 840 fps.

283479283481

[Mk42gunner]

I don't have a .32 WC mold, yet. I am accumulating enough .32 revolvers from S&W, S&W Long, and H&R that I need to get serious about getting one though.

Froggie your comment about the 313445 giving better accuracy made me think about the diameter of the nose portion. I recall in some threads from years ago there were two distinct versions of the 313445, with the difference being the diameter of the forward (bore riding?) portion of the boolit.

My particular 313445 (sorry I don't remember which one it is right now) never seemed that accurate for me, until I shot it in my first I frame a Model of 1903 second change 4 1/4". I kept the cantankerous mold for that one gun.

Robert

[Green Frog]

Well, we’re already starting to drift, but it’s my thread, so what the heck, right?

Beagle gave me a bunch of HPs and solids from a mould he had modified to use with the 32 H&R. He took a DC Lyman 313631 and had the gas check grooves removed from both cavities and further had one cavity modified to take a HP pin. He’s getting good results with those bullets that run about 101 and 106 grains respectively. The portions of those bullets outside the cases are almost round with a flat nose, and the round part almost qualifies as bore riding. Unfortunately, that mould had an even shorter production life than the ones we’ve been discussing, but it’s a good accurate bullet that deserves a look. I believe one or more of the custom shops is making a copy.

Of course the Ideal 3118 and its descendants are very accurate, but we’re increasing the weight (and recoil) by about 10% give or take to use one of those, so target performance may suffer. I think for purposes of this discussion I want to stick with a bullet around 100 grains that can dependably and accurately go up to 50 yards and cut a clean, round hole.

There are about three of my “keepers” that really need that round, and hopefully I can put together one formula that will do this in all of them.

Froggie

[rintinglen]

Although not strictly germane to the topic, My RCBS 32-98-WC has shot pretty well in limited testing, but this is a button nose wadcutter, a la 358-495, not a long nose like the 358-432. None of my 32 I frames is capable of great accuracy in my elderly hands, but this one shoots as well as anything else I've tried

[MT Gianni]

I have the 313492 which does well in my modified I frame S&W. I also have an RCBS 84 gr that shoots almost as well. The Ruger SSM gets either of more BE but 2.1 gr feeds the 32 longs for the Smith. Even with my old eyes the I frame shoots as well as any handgun I own. My Charter Arms Professional has 0.314" throats so I have pc's a NOE 3118 mold to get .315" bullets for it. I have not shot wadcutters in it.

[Green Frog]

"...modified I frame S&W..." he reads as his little amphibian eyes pop wide open. What kind of modifications? What charges of what kind of powder are you feeding it with those 313492 bullets? Just the 2.1 gr BE, or do you use others? Inquiring minds...

I've actually been going a little bit heavier with my BE charges, but it probably wouldn't be wise to post them here. I believe yours are at or near the suggested charges. Have you tried W231/HP38? I'm starting to get some pretty good results with this powder and bullets in the 95-105 gr range.

Froggie

[MT Gianni]

I think the post WW2 guns with the coil springs are generally referred to as "modified" to differentiate from the pre-war ones. The only modifications it has other than factory was a fake ivory pair of franzite grips that were replaced by wooden J frame grips from a more modern era. I have bumped the wadcutter charges up a little but really prefer the Lee tl 90 gr swc @ 2.5 gr BE and the RCBS 98 swc for faster speeds. I should work more with it but I like what I have now.

[Green Frog]

I think the post WW2 guns with the coil springs are generally referred to as "modified" to differentiate from the pre-war ones. The only modifications it has other than factory was a fake ivory pair of franzite grips that were replaced by wooden J frame grips from a more modern era. I have bumped the wadcutter charges up a little but really prefer the Lee tl 90 gr swc @ 2.5 gr BE and the RCBS 98 swc for faster speeds. I should work more with it but I like what I have now.

That’s where you lost me. Post War guns are pretty much just like the pre War versions but have the hammer block safety developed during the war and are referred to by most collectors as “Transitional” while the first ones to get the coil mainspring but be otherwise pretty much unchanged were called “Improved.” Then came the “Model of 1953” before S&W ditched the I frames altogether and made everything small a J frame. I have a hard time distinguishing between Improved and Model 1953, but the sixth (strain) screw is a dead giveaway that the leaf spring is there. I had to go back and double check the exact terminology as written by Hondo44 in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson (4th). I generally lose interest most of the time if that “6th screw” isn’t there, with the Baby Chiefs Specials and their newer siblings being the only exceptions.

I’m with you on that 90-95 gr SWC over 2.5 gr of BE... it seems like about any 32 S&W Long revolver ever likes them. I’m also loving on some slightly hotter loads of 231 behind a 105 gr LRNFP or LRNHP, but I generally save those for my K frames or Ruger Blackhawk, so I won’t muddy the waters any more by discussing it any more here.

Best regards,
Froggie

[MT Gianni]

Thanks Froggie, sometimes my memory shouldn't get near a keyboard.

[Green Frog]

No problem, my friend. Sometimes we get hung up on the minutiae of terminology and miss the big picture. I saw the words “modified” and “I frame” in the same sentence and my little amphibian imagination went into overdrive. I was expecting to get to see a bunch of pictures of your little custom-built deluxe I frame Smith, a concept near and dear to my little froggie heart! :bigsmyl2:

[35remington]

I have shot this bullet extensively, in a 1919 made Colt Police Positive four inch and a 1924 Smith Regulation Police 4 1/4. I have both the Lyman double cavity iteration and the NOE equivalent, with the NOE in .313” guise to shoot through my 30 caliber rifles and .315” for my revolvers. Just to be different the NOE have the option of hollow point pins in .313” which are in addition to non modified type. In the revolvers 2.5 of Bullseye obtains around 840 fps and makes a nice “field” load. I reduce it to around 780 fps for frequent shooting.

Bullseye and WST are my favorite powders to employ but I have used Red Dot, Unique, Titegroup, Universal, Herco, and W231 and Trail Boss. I also happened to use those same powders in a 308 rifle and posted a long piece called “Shooting a lopsided wadcutter in a 308” here some time back.

The large flake powders in 32 Long sized doses meter poorly in my Pro Auto Disk measure so I discontinued their use. The discontinued Micro cavity is often used with Bullseye and Titegroup. Titegroup was fine but did not exhibit reduced position sensitivity claimed for it so does nothing Bullseye cannot do. Bullseye is economical and meters well, as does WST, which also bulks well and is easy to see in the case due to its light color. The Smith prefers this bullet as the bore riding nose tends to mesh well with some peculiarities it has in centering the bullet in its travels and I will shoot no other bullet in it. The Colt is less demanding but nevertheless shoots it well.

When on a clear day and with a well defined aim point I can keep a cylinder full in at or under the palm of my hand at 50 yards with wrists resting on sandbags. Have now shot rabbits, squirrels and opossum and raccoon and digging squirrels with it using revolvers and rifle. From the rifle it has average 0.9” accuracy over many, many groups shot at fifty yards so it is fair to say that it has very good accuracy potential.

From testing G1 BC is 0.060.

[Green Frog]

35remington, when you say “this bullet” are you referring to the 313492 with which I started this thread, the 313445 which was mentioned in the opening post, or the 3118/311008 that got thrown in a couple of posts later? The last one is the most likely to be hollow pointed I guess, and has seen a lot of use in light rifle loadings.

Froggie

[35remington]

The 313492. I can be guilty of thread drift sometimes, but not this time. The bullet is also shown on the NOE site but is in sold out status.

[Green Frog]

The 313492. I can be guilty of thread drift sometimes, but not this time. The bullet is also shown on the NOE site but is in sold out status.

What had me confused was the reference to making a hollow point version of it. Does that correspond to the old backwards loaded HBWC we used to hear people talk about using as “combat loads”?

[richhodg66]

I have quite a few of the 313492 dad cast, I also have a two cavity mold. Haven't really messed with it much yet, I need to.

I did try some for squirrel loads in .30-30, accurate at 25 yards with five grains of Bullseye as I recall.

[Green Frog]

One of my goals for the holiday holiday weekend is to clear off my workbench and make a run of at least three bullets, the 313492, 313445, and the original Ideal 3118. I’m also running low on my “store bought” cast 125 gr bullets in nine mm, so my RCBS 09-124-CN may get its first casting session as well. As most readers here know, there is something satisfying and reassuring about having a large supply of one’s most used bullets all cast, sized, and readied so they can be be instantly pulled off the shelf and placed in the latest batch of reloads.

With all this new emphasis on the various 32s and now 9mm, I’m sure glad I found that batch of Federal SPPs and that they had aged well so they’re usable now. In these times of primer shortages finding 1800 primers that had been all but forgotten was like finding buried treasure!

Froggie

Tomorrow on Memorial Day take a few moments to remember our fallen heroes. I lost my Dad a couple of years ago. He survived serving as a Motorman on a Higgins Boat for three runs in on D Day and I am fortunate that he made it through that day and over 70 more years to raise my family. I am blessed to have had him all those years, but have to be somber when I think of how many other young men gave up that opportunity on that bloody day in June of 1944. Remember the ones who gave their lives in service and those who put their lives on the line for our freedom.

[35remington]

The HP NOE variant was purpose built as a HP with cavity to the fore. At pistol velocities expansion is problematic unless driven to Plus P levels. From a 308 at 1050 fps they do work but getting good nose radius fill out demands more tin and a hot mould with low presence of antimony to reduce fracture on impact.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, 35remington... that mould sounds like somebody’s idea that sounded good on paper (or perhaps over adult beverages :drinks:) but in the end wouldn’t work very well with 32 pistol class rounds. Then again, maybe it would work under the right set of circumstances, who knows?
I appreciate you adding to the overall base of knowledge on this topic! :coffeecom

Froggie

[ddixie884]

Yeah, good thread...........