What's so special about a "Keith" boolit ?

[Wolfdog91]

I hear alot of stuff about "Keith" Boolits and was curious about what makes them so special. Other than being a design by Elmer Keith

[mehavey]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

>
> drew up what he felt was the perfect bullet for his pet .44 Special. The meplat was 65% of the bullet diameter
> (this meplat and ogive was taken directly from Heath's 429336, Keith would ultimately settle on approximately
> 70% for later designs in other calibers). The ogive had a double radius to insure stable long-range flight.
> The crimp groove was beveled to match the profile of the case when crimped, for a firmer grip. The crimp groove
> was located to seat as much of the bullet outside of the case as possible
>
> provided match-grade accuracy, cut clean holes in target paper, delivered excellent long-range (e.g. half mile)
>accuracy, and crushed big, leaky holes in meat. In short, it did all the things Elmer wanted his sixguns to do,
> and it did them all superbly.
>

[cwtebay]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

>
> drew up what he felt was the perfect bullet for his pet .44 Special. The meplat was 65% of the bullet diameter
> (this meplat and ogive was taken directly from Heath's 429336, Keith would ultimately settle on approximately
> 70% for later designs in other calibers). The ogive had a double radius to insure stable long-range flight.
> The crimp groove was beveled to match the profile of the case when crimped, for a firmer grip. The crimp groove
> was located to seat as much of the bullet outside of the case as possible
>
> provided match-grade accuracy, cut clean holes in target paper, delivered excellent long-range (e.g. half mile)
>accuracy, and crushed big, leaky holes in meat. In short, it did all the things Elmer wanted his sixguns to do,
> and it did them all superbly.
>Thank you for posting this again. I finally downloaded it so I can enjoy the read on a flight!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

It's a few designs where you know what you are going to get. All the homework is done for you. They are accurate at very long range (well, the 45 version might not be), and they kill well enough. They are a design that shoots good in any gun in good condition, and load data is very exact. You can say I want X fps, and someone can probably tell you what and how much powder to use. I don't know any other bullet with that kind of omnipresence.

[dverna]

It's a few designs where you know what you are going to get. All the homework is done for you. They are accurate at very long range (well, the 45 version might not be), and they kill well enough. They are a design that shoots good in any gun in good condition, and load data is very exact. You can say I want X fps, and someone can probably tell you what and how much powder to use. I don't know any other bullet with that kind of omnipresence.

For me that is the big attraction...the design works and is forgiving. Maybe not the most accurate ( vs a wadcutter at 50 yards or less) or as thumpy (if that is a word) at knocking down critters, but a wonderful compromise.

[gwpercle]

Thanks mehavey ... I printed two copies , putting one with my copy of "Sixguns" .
The story without all the "fake news" stuff and misinformation that you see floating around .

Gary

[Cosmic_Charlie]

It's a bit heavier than the iconic 240 grainer. I found it shoots the best with conventional lube, pan lube in my case. Over 7 of Unique in a .44 special or 9 in a .44 mag and you have a marvelous everyday round. My cast iron RCBS mold drops them right at 431" so I'm able to shoot them as cast.

[murf205]

The thing I love about it is it’s ability to be accurate and remain stabilized at low velocity and high velocity as well. I have shot it at 700 FPS and in a 14” contender, it is still accurate at
More than twice that. It penetrates straight and the critters I’ve taken were bang flops. Contrary to its appearance, it is accurate in some revolvers that could actually use some forcing cone work. Elmer Keith got it right.

[Char-Gar]

It's a few designs where you know what you are going to get. All the homework is done for you. They are accurate at very long range (well, the 45 version might not be), and they kill well enough. They are a design that shoots good in any gun in good condition, and load data is very exact. You can say I want X fps, and someone can probably tell you what and how much powder to use. I don't know any other bullet with that kind of omnipresence.

That about sums it up!

[44MAG#1]

Keith made the hits on 3 flying Eagles all with 5 shots all around 125 yards with his 4 inch M29 with the 250 "Keith" bullets.

[white eagle]

what more needs to be said
good enough

[Green Frog]

The only question is whether anyone is currently making a Keith style bullet for the 32? I know there was a group buy of Lee moulds like that done many years ago, but where can I get one now??

Froggie

[megasupermagnum]

The only question is whether anyone is currently making a Keith style bullet for the 32? I know there was a group buy of Lee moulds like that done many years ago, but where can I get one now??

Froggie

Elmer Keith never designed a bullet for a 32 caliber handgun.

I took his general description and design requirements for his 44 caliber, and designed the Accurate 31-137K. It is a good shooting bullet, and the only thing I would change would be to shorten the nose to .400" or even .390", so that it could fit in an LCR.

[jreidthompson1]

Looks like yes


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210518/7499d3221e4f43f28eb57ad81c4cf266.jpg

[slohunter]

Lyman's 429421 mold is the most accurate "Keith" style bullet I have ever loaded.

[Mk42gunner]

The only question is whether anyone is currently making a Keith style bullet for the 32? I know there was a group buy of Lee moulds like that done many years ago, but where can I get one now??

Froggie
I remember reading somewhere that Elmer Keith thought the Ideal 3118 did about all that could be done for the .32-20 so he saw no need to design a SWC for it.

Also in his first book, he praised the bullet designed by Ashley Haines (which I think is the 313445) for the .32 S&W Long. Mine hasn't been all that accurate, although he pushed it a lot harder than I am willing to push the little I frames.

Robert

[lightman]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

>
> drew up what he felt was the perfect bullet for his pet .44 Special. The meplat was 65% of the bullet diameter
> (this meplat and ogive was taken directly from Heath's 429336, Keith would ultimately settle on approximately
> 70% for later designs in other calibers). The ogive had a double radius to insure stable long-range flight.
> The crimp groove was beveled to match the profile of the case when crimped, for a firmer grip. The crimp groove
> was located to seat as much of the bullet outside of the case as possible
>
> provided match-grade accuracy, cut clean holes in target paper, delivered excellent long-range (e.g. half mile)
>accuracy, and crushed big, leaky holes in meat. In short, it did all the things Elmer wanted his sixguns to do,
> and it did them all superbly.
>

Beside this, they just plain work well. Fast or slow they are accurate.

[LenH]

I have the Lyman 454-424 in a double cavity and a 4 cavity clone by NOE, I have been shooting this bullet since the 1970's. I has always been a very accurate projectile.

[Wayne Smith]

Froggie, I have that 32 Keith group buy mold. We aren't that far apart!

[Green Frog]

Froggie, I have that 32 Keith group buy mold. We aren't that far apart!

Wayne,

Would you be interested in selling, swapping, or loaning that mould? The only other example I know of for sure is with friend Dale53 and it’s a long way to Cincinnatti!

Froggie

[greenjoytj]

RCBS BULLET MOULD .45-255-SWC 424 and the design tweaked version RCBS .45-270-SAA 424 are supposed to be very good bullets. I might buy one of these after a little more research.
I don’t know if a SWC will feed smoothly into a Win M73 rifle. I can’t imagine they’ll just drop into the chambers of my Ruger New Vaquero’s without snagging on the chamber edge.

My only experience with a SWC design bullet is with some commercial cast for 357 Mag.
The SWC lip that is responsible for cutting nice clean holes in the target paper gave me fits trying to load them into the cylinder of S&W 686. That paper cutting lip would snag on the chamber edge every time whether I loaded singly or jiggled 6 in a speed loader.

Lesson learned from loading my 357, for my 45 Colt cartridges I prefer to cast a smooth feeding RNFP, I don’t care that they tear a ragged hole in the paper target.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The boolit was designed by Elmer Keith, anyone with a name like Elmer Keith who wore a 10 Gallon Hat everyday, had to know what he was doing.

I tend to listen to them that knows. Since he wrote the book on Sixgun shooting I figured he knew.

Plus that he reminded me of Foghorn Leghorn, and I would have gotten along with him famously.
Everytime I read something by him I can still hear his voice!

Randy

[Burnt Fingers]

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=94&limit=100

I've got that one for my 327 FM.

[robertbank]

I love old Elmer. He did quite a lot of hunting here in Canada and specifically NE BC and NW Alberta. Elmer did a lot of things in his life and history has the proof. One bit of poetic license I did run across was his tale of shooting a deer taking out 4" of the spine. He then went on to say the deer ran some distance - if I remember right it was around 100 yards. That just could not happen. Blow out the spinal cord of any mammal and nothing moves downstream of the cut. Just a case of poetic license.

If you have not read "Hell I Was There" by Elmer you should it is a great read.

As a teen I read his column in Guns & Ammo with enthusiasm. He had something to say and do and he did. Enough said.

I have been shooting his designs in my revolvers for 30 years. They perform as he says they would within the limits of my erratic skill level. It is the shooter not the gun....

Take Care

Bob

[trapper9260]

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=94&limit=100

I've got that one for my 327 FM.

That is a interesting mold. it can be used in 30 cal also when sized, thanks for the link

[racepres]

RCBS BULLET MOULD .45-255-SWC 424 and the design tweaked version RCBS .45-270-SAA 424 are supposed to be very good bullets. I might buy one of these after a little more research.
I don’t know if a SWC will feed smoothly into a Win M73 rifle. I can’t imagine they’ll just drop into the chambers of my Ruger New Vaquero’s without snagging on the chamber edge.

My only experience with a SWC design bullet is with some commercial cast for 357 Mag.
The SWC lip that is responsible for cutting nice clean holes in the target paper gave me fits trying to load them into the cylinder of S&W 686. That paper cutting lip would snag on the chamber edge every time whether I loaded singly or jiggled 6 in a speed loader.

Lesson learned from loading my 357, for my 45 Colt cartridges I prefer to cast a smooth feeding RNFP, I don’t care that they tear a ragged hole in the paper target.

well said

[hc18flyer]

RCBS BULLET MOULD .45-255-SWC 424 and the design tweaked version RCBS .45-270-SAA 424 are supposed to be very good bullets. I might buy one of these after a little more research.
I don’t know if a SWC will feed smoothly into a Win M73 rifle. I can’t imagine they’ll just drop into the chambers of my Ruger New Vaquero’s without snagging on the chamber edge.

My only experience with a SWC design bullet is with some commercial cast for 357 Mag.
The SWC lip that is responsible for cutting nice clean holes in the target paper gave me fits trying to load them into the cylinder of S&W 686. That paper cutting lip would snag on the chamber edge every time whether I loaded singly or jiggled 6 in a speed loader.

Lesson learned from loading my 357, for my 45 Colt cartridges I prefer to cast a smooth feeding RNFP, I don’t care that they tear a ragged hole in the paper target.

I have both the 45-255 and 270SAA, and I honestly haven't noticed that issue with my Ruger Blackhawk. I have 3 different rnfp molds as well for my .45. hc18flyer

[Tar Heel]

Due to its meplat and front driving band, it KILLS game and raging cattle very effectively. That was incredibly important for a working cow poke and hunter. His design was based on field experience - not theory. The bullet is a proven game taker. Every hog and deer I nailed with a KTSWC in 41 or 45 Caliber was a one-shot drop.

If you haven't read his books, they are a great source of first-hand information about the life of a cow poke, the hardships endured in the time period (without complaint), the drive of a man to care for his family, and the absolute working knowledge of handguns and their projectiles. While his prose can be a tad gruff at times, he speaks to us from the time - when men were men and a foul mouth was not tolerated.

Find yourself a copy of "Sixguns" and "Hell - I was There" and have a good read!

[waksupi]

I love old Elmer. He did quite a lot of hunting here in Canada and specifically NE BC and NW Alberta. Elmer did a lot of things in his life and history has the proof. One bit of poetic license I did run across was his tale of shooting a deer taking out 4" of the spine. He then went on to say the deer ran some distance - if I remember right it was around 100 yards. That just could not happen. Blow out the spinal cord of any mammal and nothing moves downstream of the cut. Just a case of poetic license.

If you have not read "Hell I Was There" by Elmer you should it is a great read.

As a teen I read his column in Guns & Ammo with enthusiasm. He had something to say and do and he did. Enough said.

I have been shooting his designs in my revolvers for 30 years. They perform as he says they would within the limits of my erratic skill level. It is the shooter not the gun....

Take Care

Bob

I would have thought that too, until last fall. I shot a buck at an uphill angle, and didn't hold low enough. He rolled down the hill, and before I got to him, he was back on his feet struggling back up the hill. Two vertebra were completely destroyed.

[Burnt Fingers]

That is a interesting mold. it can be used in 30 cal also when sized, thanks for the link

You're welcome. I never thought of using it in 30 cal.

[robertbank]

I would have thought that too, until last fall. I shot a buck at an uphill angle, and didn't hold low enough. He rolled down the hill, and before I got to him, he was back on his feet struggling back up the hill. Two vertebra were completely destroyed.

Yes but the hind legs were not moving. Had a similar experience in Alberta several years ago. Shot the deer just back of the shoulders through the spine. Deer was pulling itself with it's two front legs until I ended his struggles with a .357 in his ear.

Take Care

Bob

[dahermit]

Due to its meplat and front driving band, it KILLS game and raging cattle very effectively.

Explain please, how the front driving band on the K.T. bullets makes it a better killer of game and cattle.

[robertbank]

Explain please, how the front driving band on the K.T. bullets makes it a better killer of game and cattle.

It cuts a clean hole through veins and tissue, opposed to say a round nose that will push through veins and tissue leaving a tiny hole through the tissue as the round nose simply pushes through the tissue ass opposed to cutting the tissue as it does with the sharp shoulders of the driving band. Look at paper targets when shot with a round nose bullet vs a SWC.

Take Care

Bob

[megasupermagnum]

Explain please, how the front driving band on the K.T. bullets makes it a better killer of game and cattle.

It doesn't. That 100 year old myth has been busted time and time again. What it does do is align the bullet, which is why they are so accurate.

[44MAG#1]

It doesn't. That 100 year old myth has been busted time and time again. What it does do is align the bullet, which is why they are so accurate.

That is true. That error has been disproven by Ross Seyfried and many others since. Still the much varied "Keith" is a bullet that is hard to beat overall. I like it alot and shoot it probably more in 44 caliber than other designs.

[405grain]

I've been shooting and hunting with the "Keith type" RCBS 44-245-SWC for 40 years. In a super blackhawk it has accounted for both feral pigs and deer. It is accurate enough that I've even used it on ground squirrel hunts. The shoulder on the forward driving band certainly cuts a clean hole in paper targets, but in my experience the mushrooming of the big meplat on game is what really gets the job done.
"Keith type" bullets come in both flat nosed and hollow point. With the deep penetration and good expansion from the standard design I've never felt the need for the hollow point version. I've read where people say that Elmer Keith preferred plain based boolits over gas checked designs. Even though the Boolit I shoot is a plain base, if I were to make the choice over again I'd choose a gas checked SWC because they are more versatile.
I also cast the RCBS 32-98-SWC for use in 32 H&R magnum. Both of these designs put as much of the bullet forward as possible to increase case capacity. To sum it up: in my opinion a Keith design bullet does everything well. Other designs might do one or two things better, but this type of semi-wadcutter does everything really good.

[Walks]

Did you really have to ask ?

Read more, a whole lot more. And not necessarily just Keith's stuff. Most of the more modern gun writer's say pretty much the same thing.
Although lot's of folks like the Wide Flat Nose as brought out by Veral Smith and heavily copied by others.
The WFN does feed better in the Lever Guns liked by so many of Us.
For Me;
SixGun only; Keith.
Rifle and SixGun; WFN.
The Keith does cut a Beautiful hole in the paper.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

My RCBS 250K mold was not a favorite until recently. Never worked very well with tumble lube and powder coating them just seemed wrong. Pan lubing and a soft bhn 10 alloy really woke them up out of my Model 24 over 7 grains of Unique. And wouldn't you know it, that recipe has been tried and true for a very long time. And the mold drops them at .431" so sizing is not needed.

[rockshooter]

Burnt Fingers!
Thanks for the link- http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=94&limit=100
I just now ordered one for .327. Thought I'd see if I can possibly improve on 311008.
Loren

[Piedmont]

That is true. That error has been disproven by Ross Seyfried and many others since.
The above quote is in reference to the shoulder of a SWC cutting in game. This was not disproven, in my opinion. Ross shot gelatin with sand in it after marking the nose and shoulder with a permanent marker or paint and looking at the bullet for abrasion after the shot. The problem with that is animals aren't made of gelatin. Lots of different material in them including bone and hide. Brian Pearce strongly disagrees with the statement that the shoulder doesn't cut in game. He has written of his observations in dead animals, not gelatin.

[44MAG#1]

Ross hunted with handguns in this country and Africa. And so goes the story.
Everyone will believe as he or she wants too. If the shoulder in a SWC does the work then it wouldn't matter if the point was a Spire or Spitzer point then. Why, because the shoulder of the SWC would be doing the work.
Deep down we know that isn't the case.
So where do we go from there? And those that uses an alloy that deforms the nose how could they prove or disprove anything either way?
And so it goes again.

[megasupermagnum]

The above quote is in reference to the shoulder of a SWC cutting in game. This was not disproven, in my opinion. Ross shot gelatin with sand in it after marking the nose and shoulder with a permanent marker or paint and looking at the bullet for abrasion after the shot. The problem with that is animals aren't made of gelatin. Lots of different material in them including bone and hide. Brian Pearce strongly disagrees with the statement that the shoulder doesn't cut in game. He has written of his observations in dead animals, not gelatin.

There has been a lot more testing than that. Think about it this way. If it did cut, then they would do the same job as a full wadcutter. They don't. The H&G #68, the gold standard 45 acp bullet is about the most extreme example of a tiny meplat SWC I can think of. If the shoulder did anything, that bullet would be an awesome hunting bullet. It doesn't though, and it leaves puny holes in things. If one were to shoot a deer with one, you would have one heck of a tracking job. Swap that to a non-SWC bullet like a 200 gr RNFP with a decent sized flat, and you have a bullet that makes a much larger hole.

Don't take my word for it. Take an H&G 68 and a WFN, and shoot a roadkill animal with them.

[Lloyd Smale]

im a big fan of elmer. Even named my last dog Elmer Keith. The reason his bullets were so good is at the time there wasnt much for cast bullet designs. Most were round nose bullets. Elmer made what at the time was hands down the best hunting bullet. He knew that a flat metplat was much better for killing animals. It still is a great bullet but as much as i dont like pompous veral smith he came up with the lfn design which kills as well and is most of the time more accurate at any velocity. Now i dont have much use for his wfn or especially his wlfn but he changed the cast bullet hunting world with the lfn. I still use kieths and Lfns about exclusively but most of my most accurate handgun loads are with lfns. Ive found it takes about half the farting around developing loads to find accuracy with it and it flys as well at long range as a true keith. Now true kieth is the key word. IT is probably the most abused term in bullet casting. Any swc that resembles a Keith bullet is called a keith. Accually he had some strict design specs on his keith bullet and very few of the swcs today fit his design specs. Look even at the most famous swc the 421429. That bullet has at least 3 differnt designs. All made by lyman and all called the same thing. Rcbs is another they made 2 different 250 swcs that are called kieths. I dont know if theres even a single mold maker today making a real kieth bullet that fits his design criteria's. Its about like calling a ford truck a chev because there both trucks.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

RCBS BULLET MOULD .45-255-SWC 424 and the design tweaked version RCBS .45-270-SAA 424 are supposed to be very good bullets. I might buy one of these after a little more research.
I don’t know if a SWC will feed smoothly into a Win M73 rifle. I can’t imagine they’ll just drop into the chambers of my Ruger New Vaquero’s without snagging on the chamber edge.

My only experience with a SWC design bullet is with some commercial cast for 357 Mag.
The SWC lip that is responsible for cutting nice clean holes in the target paper gave me fits trying to load them into the cylinder of S&W 686. That paper cutting lip would snag on the chamber edge every time whether I loaded singly or jiggled 6 in a speed loader.

Lesson learned from loading my 357, for my 45 Colt cartridges I prefer to cast a smooth feeding RNFP, I don’t care that they tear a ragged hole in the paper target.

You can seat them deeper and crimp over the shoulder so they feed in a lever gun. I used to do that with those Speer semi jacketed hollow points. I noticed yesterday the RCBS 250K loads were a bit fussy going into my Model 24 cylinder even loading them one at a time.

[robg]

im a keith fan ,his boolits just work .

[cowboy4evr]

I hear ya , about all the different designs called " Keiths " . I have a box full of repro's , Lyman , RCBS etc . I finally was able to find the company that had all the H&G drawings . They made for me , the actual H&G 503 , the design that Elmer had H&G make after he got mad at Lyman for changing his 429421 . They also made for me his design for the 41 magnum , H&G 258 . The Lyman design for the 41 magnum is NOT Elmers design . They just put his name on it . He wrote them a scathing letter about it .
Kind of interesting is that when my mold for the 41 magnum arrived , it had seen a bit of use . Apparently someone cast himself quite a few bullets before it was sent out . I didn't mind , just glad to get the " real Keiths " . Regards Paul

[dahermit]

Elmer Keith was not God... He was in fact a pompous braggart. However, I don't think he was a liar (his 500 yard shoot with a 4 inch .44 magnum).

Although his bullet design for the .44 was good (or good enough), it most certainly is not perfect. I take two issues with it. Firstly his grease grove (flat-bottomed, not the early Lyman 49421 with the shallow round grove), was excessive. As I remember, he stated that the flat-bottom was to help hold the bullet lube in place during firing (a good thing... my early 429321 had a shallow-round groove in which the bullet lube was observed to dry-out and pieces drop out.) and to assure that there was enough lube to do its job. However, there was no evidence that more lube was required than that which could be provided by a more modest lube groove. Secondly, his crimp groove was unnecessarily deep which encourages handloaders to over-crimp their Keith-type bullets in their cartridges thereby shortening case life unnecessarily. Nevertheless, I have two RCBS .44-250-kt molds (higher production with two at a time) from which I cast and shoot his bullets exclusively in my S&W 696 .44 Special... believing that his design is not perfect, but is certainly good enough for any purpose.

[Lloyd Smale]

were you there to call him a lier. Ive never shot live animals at that distance but have shot enough long range 6 and 5 guns to know that someone thats good sure could pull it off. We shot 3/4 scale steel bison targets at the linebaugh seminar. One shot to range and 5 for score. they did a 357 44 45 475 fand 500 class. I won the 44 class with 5 out of 5 hits. Every class was one by a perfect score. Sounds like you just dont have any experience in long range sixgun shooting. Seems the braggard is here critisizing his design. How many molds have you designed that are in production. My guess is elmer shot more in a year then you have in your life. I NEVER call anyone a lier unless i have proof. 276 posts and we should listen to you correcting elmer kieth. Now thats comical.

[MT Gianni]

dahermit, I can't see comparing todays' lubes to older lube grooves. Our polymer based waxes can give a great lube with 1/8th the lube as that made from lamb fat and beeswax. I believe a crimp can change drastically depending on throats and powders. What #6 required for a crimp to burn we will never know. EK dropped Lyman as a mold maker when they went to a smaller lube groove than he specified. As one who has lived my adult life with in a couple hundred miles of country he hunted and grew up in I feel I know the old timers a bit. I think Elmer never felt he was respected as some others as he grew up poor and guided hunters, rather than was guided himself. He had to assert himself to be taken seriously. To quote Satchel Paige, "It ain't bragging of you done it".

[W.R.Buchanan]

He had a deer sized target at 600 yards up from his back door and would replicate the shot on demand for naysayers,,, who never doubted him again after seeing him do it.

There is being FOS,,, then there is being able to back it up,,, which usually shuts people up for good and removes the FOS from behind your name.

I sometimes bait people for fun. It's called Hustling.

Randy.

[dahermit]

were you there to call him a lier. Ive never shot live animals at that distance but have shot enough long range 6 and 5 guns to know that someone thats good sure could pull it off. We shot 3/4 scale steel bison targets at the linebaugh seminar. One shot to range and 5 for score. they did a 357 44 45 475 fand 500 class. I won the 44 class with 5 out of 5 hits. Every class was one by a perfect score. Sounds like you just dont have any experience in long range sixgun shooting. Seems the braggard is here critisizing his design. How many molds have you designed that are in production. My guess is elmer shot more in a year then you have in your life. I NEVER call anyone a lier unless i have proof. 276 posts and we should listen to you correcting elmer kieth. Now thats comical.

What is comical is that you seem to have not read my post. Read this part again: "I don't think he was a liar."
Aside from that, explain if you please, what a person's post count has to do with anything.

[44MAG#1]

I readily believe he hit the deer at 600 yards 2 out of 4 shots. Even though he didn't think that was his best shooting.

[dahermit]

I have to admit that that heavy RCBS-250-kt is an impressive thumper for my .44 Special.
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/021052613876/media/1684024598561021/medium/1606011055/enhance

[gwpercle]

For a bullet design that was put together and brought to the Ideal/Lyman mould co. about 1928 - 1929 time frame ... and here it is 2021 and we are still talking about the Keith SWC and just about every maker of moulds still cuts a SWC ... some called Keith and others just SWC ...
Still being relevant , talked about , used and seemingly going strong after 92 years ... the boolit Must have something going for it and like or dislike the man ... you have to admit the Keith SWC was a sucess and while I don't agree with Elmer on everything...( I will use gas checks) He got the SWC design right . Modern lubes have done away with the "need" for square bottomed grease grooves that had to hold a lot of bear tallow and hog lard lubes .
When I started reloading in 1967 the only way to get cast Keith SWC boolits was to buy a mould and cast them yourself ... which I did about week two into my reloading experience ...no inter net selling and the factory bullets were swaged of soft lead with little lube and mostly round nose design .
The Keith SWC may not be "The Perfect Boolit" for everything but ...it's pretty near it , and good enough for my needs .
Gary

[mehavey]

He was in fact a pompous braggartHaving read all his pubs over the last 30-40 years... well...
He was what my father would call... "a character"

[Lloyd Smale]

What is comical is that you seem to have not read my post. Read this part again: "I don't think he was a liar."
Aside from that, explain if you please, what a person's post count has to do with anything.

you called him a pompous braggard. by the way its shows right at the bottom of your post that it was edited after my post and "NOT" was added in. Nice try though.

[44MAG#1]

DAHERMIT,

What 500 yard shot with a 4 inch 44 Magnum are you talking about?

[Lloyd Smale]

elmer shot a deer with a 29 at 500 yards

[44MAG#1]

I am interested in the particular 500 yard shot with a 4 inch 44 Magnum that was mentioned.

[dahermit]

DAHERMIT,

What 500 yard shot with a inch 44 Magnum are you talking about?

The distance was evidently in error... it was much further than that. My memory of the exact distance was the result of reading about the incident back in the middle sixties. The point was that he shot a deer (or some other large game animal) at a great distance, and people (other gun writers) accused him of lying. There was ample evidence in his writing that he was a braggart, but none (that I can remember), that he ever lied about anything.

[dahermit]

you called him a pompous braggard. by the way its shows right at the bottom of your post that it was edited after my post and "NOT" was added in. Nice try though.

The edit had to do with my misspelling of the word "liar". Look up: "The Dunning-Kruger Effect."

[44MAG#1]

At what point does one become a "Braggart"? If someone does something that is, let's say, exceptional and the tell about one time is that bragging? Or does it take telling 2 times? Or 3 times? Or 4 times? Or 5 times? Just the one time or how many times? What standard sets bragging? If one does that exceptional thing does he or she keep it hid or can they mention it once, twice, three, four times? Maybe to those who can't do anything exceptional any mention of something exceptional done by someone may be considered bragging by someone who can't do something exceptional? Could that be true?
I don't know is the reason I asked. What is the standard that needs to be set to determine when talking by the "braggart" is bragging since a "braggart" does not brag 100 percent of time.

[Tar Heel]

As mentioned in the first reply, the EXCELLENT dissertation by Glen Fryxell in From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners©, Chapter 12, The Keith Semiwadcutter (SWC), absolutely explains why some folks, myself included, prefer the KT bullets for both hunting and accurate shooting. It's all spelled out in the chapter. Bottom line is the bullets perform well.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

The proof they say, is in the pudding. I shoot KTSWC bullets in 32, 38, 41, 44, and 45 calibers when hunting with my handguns. From rabbits to 400+ pounds of pissed off Russian boar, the bullets work. I once saw a guy treed by a hog shoot that hog 8x with a 44 Magnum JSP bullet. The hog attacked the bottom of that tree for several minutes while it eventually exsanguinated. I never had that problem with a KTSWC.

In the early 20th century, Elmer did all the hard work and field testing on his bullets. The data is out there and bullet molds are available with very close copies of his bullets made by RCBS and Lyman. If you wish to experience first-hand the value of a KTSWC bullet on game, be sure to get a mold which actually resembles his bullet rather than simply claims to be a KTSWC, The large grease groove is requisite on a KTSWC for the higher velocities we normally drive these to and with the slightly harder alloy. My hunting loads are cast with Lyman #2 alloy or with heat treated wheel weights if you can find non-zinc WW metal anymore.

283308 283310

283309 283311

[Thumbcocker]

Iirc the wounded mule deer was about to escape over the ridge and Elmer shot at it with model 29 with factory loads. Brian Pearce later obtained an identical model 29 and period ammo that had been stored in a cool dry place. The result? Multiple hits on a mule deer target at 600 yards.

In Sixguns Elmer mentioned shooting at an abandoned outhouse at 500 or 600 yards (don't recall exactly) with a revolver. So he had practice. Also let's not forget that Elmer competed in military rifle matches so he probably had some experience with range estimation.

I have read that Charles Asking offered to catch a .44 bullet at 600 yards with a catchers mitt. I would have paid cash money to watch him try.

[Three44s]

I am big on the RCBS 250K and most grateful to Mr. Keith for the work he and and the books he wrote.

He was not a “God” so I do not worship him. Rather, he was a human being with an interesting storied larger than life career.

At the time he was active I was not into big bore revolvers and was toting around a .270 Win, so I was more a fan of Jack O’Conner.

Those two, Elmer and Jack were not “friends” by any stretch of the imagination but that’s their doing.

I respect and appreciate what both men did for shooting sports and hunting.

If I was forced to take sides in their dispute I would today side with Elmer however. He worked with his hands and body on the frontline as a guide and rancher and then wrote about it.

As far as boolit styles, I see the wide flat nosed slugs likely as better killers at close range with the Keith SWC close on its heels but with better long range and target capability.

The SWC being a better all around boolit.

Three44s

[Dancing Bear]

Lyman's 429421 mold is the most accurate "Keith" style bullet I have ever loaded.

my main mold for my 44 mags.

[Lloyd Smale]

At what point does one become a "Braggart"? If someone does something that is, let's say, exceptional and the tell about one time is that bragging? Or does it take telling 2 times? Or 3 times? Or 4 times? Or 5 times? Just the one time or how many times? What standard sets bragging? If one does that exceptional thing does he or she keep it hid or can they mention it once, twice, three, four times? Maybe to those who can't do anything exceptional any mention of something exceptional done by someone may be considered bragging by someone who can't do something exceptional? Could that be true?
I don't know is the reason I asked. What is the standard that needs to be set to determine when talking by the "braggart" is bragging since a "braggart" does not brag 100 percent of time.

one usually is considered a braggart when he knows more then the know it all calling him that:bigsmyl2:

[Lloyd Smale]

I am big on the RCBS 250K and most grateful to Mr. Keith for the work he and and the books he wrote.

He was not a “God” so I do not worship him. Rather, he was a human being with an interesting storied larger than life career.

At the time he was active I was not into big bore revolvers and was toting around a .270 Win, so I was more a fan of Jack O’Conner.

Those two, Elmer and Jack were not “friends” by any stretch of the imagination but that’s their doing.

I respect and appreciate what both men did for shooting sports and hunting.

If I was forced to take sides in their dispute I would today side with Elmer however. He worked with his hands and body on the frontline as a guide and rancher and then wrote about it.

As far as boolit styles, I see the wide flat nosed slugs likely as better killers at close range with the Keith SWC close on its heels but with better long range and target capability.

The SWC being a better all around boolit.

Three44s

no jack occonor was a blow hole. elmer was jeans and work clothes. Jack a tweed vest pipe smoking yuppy of the day.. Very proud of himself. Elmer? He told it like it is and some cant take that. What he was was one of the most knowledgeable sixgun and casting expert of his time. He got smith to make then 44 mag n frame. What more needs to be said. He may not have the technical expertise and equipment
that we are lucky to have today in bullet casting but he was THE MAN back then. I dont know a single EXPERIENCED sixgun shooter that doesnt think the same. If you doubt it ask John Linebaugh or hamilton bowen or paco kelly what there opinion of him was. I have met people lucky enough to be able to call him friend and they had nothing but good to say about his character and honesty. They will all tell you if he said it take it to the bank.

[Tar Heel]

I don't know a single EXPERIENCED sixgun shooter that doesn't think the same.

Thank you very much!

[onelight]

no jack occonor was a blow hole. elmer was jeans and work clothes. Jack a tweed vest pipe smoking yuppy of the day.. Very proud of himself. Elmer? He told it like it is and some cant take that. What he was was one of the most knowledgeable sixgun and casting expert of his time. He got smith to make then 44 mag n frame. What more needs to be said. He may not have the technical expertise and equipment
that we are lucky to have today in bullet casting but he was THE MAN back then. I dont know a single EXPERIENCED sixgun shooter that doesnt think the same. If you doubt it ask John Linebaugh or hamilton bowen or paco kelly what there opinion of him was. I have met people lucky enough to be able to call him friend and they had nothing but good to say about his character and honesty. They will all tell you if he said it take it to the bank.
:drinks: Good Post !

[robertbank]

I think we all have our opinions and truthfully most of my memories from the late 50's and 60's tend to be better when they relate to things I did either at home or at school. As a young lad I enjoyed Jack Connor and his columns on hunting with his beloved Winchester Model 70 in .270 caliber. I never really was an early fan of Elmer Keith's writing mostly because I did not understand a lot of what he routinely discussed in his columns. Later in life, when I got involved in competitive handgun shooting I took more of an interest in his writings. In Hell I Was Their he talks about shooting at a shed at around 500- 600 yards. A friend gave me a copy of the book so I can't quote exactly what he said but I do remember reading about it and I think when he discussed hitting the shed he mentioned the deer shot. I admit I could be wrong if the two subjects were connected.

We are all burdened to some extent by our past experiences. Larry, you identify O'Connor as a pipe smoking blow hole while good old Elmer wore jeans, kind of a working class everyday type of guy. What is funny as a young teen all I saw a in O'Connor was a guy lucky enough to be able to travel and write about his hunting experiences. I viewed Elmer in the same way. Both made their way through life writing and we enjoyed what they had to say and we had our favourites.

I do believe Elmer on occasion embellished some of his tales. That doesn't make him a liar, it makes him human and there is nothing wrong with that. His claim about shooting a deer and having it run off after his bullet removed four inches of the deer's spine cannot be true. If that were indeed possible we would have nobody assigned to wheel chairs after having suffering their spinal cords cut. I have seen a buck crawl using it's front legs about 15 yards before by buddy and I reached the Buck. I put a 357 bullet in the Bucks ear to end the issue. Did Elmer lie in his account or did he just embellish his story for readers that would come after him. I don't really care one way or another. I enjoyed his book, I recently bought his book Sixguns and am enjoying the read. He was a straight shooter by any definition. He lived a life through a time that is now gone forever. Just be happy both he and O'Connor left us with stories of their day that many now will never enjoy or be subjected to.

Take Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

I would still like to know the test one can apply to someone to determine when that person becomes a braggart.
What about a "Liar"? If someone doesn't tell 100 percent the truth is he a "Liar"? What if he or she tells 98 percent truth, 90 percent truth, 85 percent truth?
What is the litmus test for being a "Liar"?

[cwtebay]

Has anyone ever used a Keith style bullet in an autoloader? Success? Experience?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[dahermit]

At what point does one become a "Braggart"? If someone does something that is, let's say, exceptional and the tell about one time is that bragging? Or does it take telling 2 times? Or 3 times? Or 4 times? Or 5 times? Just the one time or how many times? What standard sets bragging? If one does that exceptional thing does he or she keep it hid or can they mention it once, twice, three, four times? Maybe to those who can't do anything exceptional any mention of something exceptional done by someone may be considered bragging by someone who can't do something exceptional? Could that be true?
I don't know is the reason I asked. What is the standard that needs to be set to determine when talking by the "braggart" is bragging since a "braggart" does not brag 100 percent of time.

Having likely read every article that Elmer Keith ever wrote in the gun magazines in the middle-late sixties into the seventies, I noted that he gratuitously used the pronoun, "I" in his writings where as the other authurs of the time did not. In short Elmer was always the center of his written endeavors. Compare his writing to O'Conner, Venturino, Askins, Cooper, and even that good gun-fiction that Skelton wrote... well, maybe not Cooper.

[44MAG#1]

If "I" did something I did it. It surely wasn't "We" did it. Now if two or more of us did something together "We" did it.

[robertbank]

Has anyone ever used a Keith style bullet in an autoloader? Success? Experience?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

If you are talking about lead semi wadcutters (LSWC) as a group...yes. 200 gr LSWC run through my 45acp semi autos like pop through a goose. I use similar styles in my 9mm and 40 cal semi autos.. If they work in handguns there is no reason, other than design issues with a firearm. My Ruger PCC has no issues with LSWC'S.

The biggest feature I find with Keith style bullets is they work for me in the guns i own and the needs i encounter.

Take Care
Bob

[Lloyd Smale]

Thank you very much!

you hit on the real cast bullet EXPERT Glen Fryxell he and rob applegate were the real cast bullet gurus. I had the privilege of knowing Rob and he was a cast bullet and gun SCIENTIST. Back when this forum was in its infancy we had our own expert here. May still remember Felix. I can say that with no exception all of them respected Elmer Kieth.

[Lloyd Smale]

Having likely read every article that Elmer Keith ever wrote in the gun magazines in the middle-late sixties into the seventies, I noted that he gratuitously used the pronoun, "I" in his writings where as the other authurs of the time did not. In short Elmer was always the center of his written endeavors. Compare his writing to O'Conner, Venturino, Askins, Cooper, and even that good gun-fiction that Skelton wrote... well, maybe not Cooper.

he was writing ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES. Not like today when the experts here do an internet search and come back using knowlege that should use us and we but rarely do.

[Bent Ramrod]

I took a writing class while I worked in a Gummint Research Lab. The instructor told us to avoid using the passive voice to the greatest extent possible.

I objected, pointing out that if I wrote a science paper in the active voice it would be “I mixed this and I boiled that and I poured something else and I tested the result and I found that....and it was all about I,I,I, and Me, Me, Me!” So I’d use the passive voice exclusively, where mixes were made and tests were done and these results were found. All about the actual process, not me.

He countered that he saw my point, but there was danger there too, because “Mistakes were made and bad judgements were exercised, and disasters resulted” left the reader with the impression that a coverup was happening and the actual people who made the mistakes and bad decisions were laying low till things cooled off.

I could see his point, too.

Keith was careful to explain that what he was describing was what he saw and thought was going on, and that there might be a lot of variance between his experiences and those of others, but all he could write on were his own. It doesn’t come across as braggadocio or self-absorption to me, just the basic weaknesses of the written word.

[robertbank]

he was writing ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES. Not like today when the experts here do an internet search and come back using knowlege that should use us and we but rarely do.

Larry you like I, often leave out words we think we wrote but didn't hence you will find me editing a post I make immediately after I post it. Your post needs some words to make some sense.

Take Care

Bob

[Lloyd Smale]

If "I" did something I did it. It surely wasn't "We" did it. Now if two or more of us did something together "We" did it.

yup and and when "I" post something on here its because "I" experienced or did it. There is no WE running my casting pot loading machines or shooting and testing what i make or killing deer with them. Hung up on WE. Seems kind of like the liberals handing out trophy's to both teams so that the losers get the same credit as the winner. Come on over and cast a 1000 bullets for me, pc them and load them and when i talk about it THEN i will say we.

[megasupermagnum]

Having likely read every article that Elmer Keith ever wrote in the gun magazines in the middle-late sixties into the seventies, I noted that he gratuitously used the pronoun, "I" in his writings where as the other authurs of the time did not. In short Elmer was always the center of his written endeavors. Compare his writing to O'Conner, Venturino, Askins, Cooper, and even that good gun-fiction that Skelton wrote... well, maybe not Cooper.

Seriously? You're mad because he used the pronoun I when describing things he did himself?

Elmer Keith lived a life worth living. People who live boring lives are either angry they can't live more exciting lives, or don't know what it means. Which are you?

[444ttd]

yup and and when "I" post something on here its because "I" experienced or did it. There is no WE running my casting pot loading machines or shooting and testing what i make or killing deer with them. Hung up on WE. Seems kind of like the liberals handing out trophy's to both teams so that the losers get the same credit as the winner. Come on over and cast a 1000 bullets for me, pc them and load them and when i talk about it THEN i will say we.

+1 fer me!!!!!

[white eagle]

eye for an eye,
I get it

[dahermit]

Seriously? You're mad because he used the pronoun I when describing things he did himself?

Elmer Keith lived a life worth living. People who live boring lives are either angry they can't live more exciting lives, or don't know what it means. Which are you?

The keyword was gratuitous (look it up).

[44MAG#1]

Gratuitous.

1. uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted.
2. given or done free of charge.

According to Webster.

[Tar Heel]

Ok. Back to bullets. the KTSWC is the best all around. Period. I say so. Proven. No further commentary needed. No better bullet exists.

[robertbank]

It is time a mod stepped in and put a fork in this thread. Love him or hate him he was what he was ...a product of his generation and time.

Take care

Bob

[Wally]

Back in the 70's I personally corresponded w/Elmer Keith...asking him questions. Her personally responded to all of them. His responses were short and sweet with no BS.

[44MAG#1]

Back in the 70's I personally corresponded w/Elmer Keith...asking him questions. Her personally responded to all of them. His responses were short and sweet with no BS.

I corresponded with him and kept in touch by phone with him from the mid 70's to shortly before he had the stroke that eventually ended his life, or contributed to his death. He was a nice man. Very willing to talk.

[44MAG#1]

It is time a mod stepped in and put a fork in this thread. Love him or hate him he was what he was ...a product of his generation and time.

Take care

Bob

That would be the definitive answer alright to a post that from the outset had a design to be controversial from the get go.

[Wolfdog91]

.... I've become sooo confused

[44MAG#1]

.... I've become sooo confused

If you are confused by what I said, which I hope not, is when you mention Elmer Keith in a question you have everyone from those who think Keith could do no wrong to those that thinks he is the worst thing to come along. Then they pile on and both sides start telling how great he was and then the others pile on telling how worthless he and his ideas were and how big a liar he was.
That is what I meant. Just when his name is mentioned, watch out.
I think he was a very smart person in knowing what to do and what worked for him. That takes a smart person. In his later years he did very little experimentation. He didn't need to. He was SMART enough to keep doing what worked for him by using what worked.
Did he think his bullet was great, yes he did, just like most of us would do. Are there better bullets, no doubt, since his "KEITH" design has been fiddled with, fooled with, messed with, till with as many variations there are there has got to be some bad "KEITH" bullets out there.
So what, there are a lot of others out there that may be better than a messed up "KEITH" bullet but not any better than a great "KEITH" design.
There are many "KEITH" bullets out in the cast bullet world. Seek, find a few designs, and set out on an experimenting experience, find what works and stick with it.
Sorry if I was the one who confused you. Just meaning when the name Elmer Keith comes up there will be controversy. That is what I meant designed to be controversial whether meant to be or not. Just the name Elmer Keith is all it takes.

[dale2242]

Back in the 70s, a friend of mine and myself would shoot at rocks in the river from a somewhat high vantage point.
I was shooting a S&W M29 and he was shooting a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 mag.
Both of us were shooting Elmers load of 22 gr 2400 and 429421.
We found that we could hit washing machine size rocks at 400-600 yds more often than I thought possible.
Having the rocks surrounded by water made it easier to tell where our bullets were landing.
I have a lot of 44 caliber molds and the 429421 is by far my favorite.

[sharps4590]

The bullet, in its original design, put simply, works for a lot of folks for the same reason it worked for Elmer. Don't like the bullet? Don't cast, buy or shoot it. No big beal. I don't like RNFP so I don't use them.

Almost 50 years with heavy revolvers and all I've ever done is prove almost everything Elmer Keith ever said about them.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ok. Back to bullets. the KTSWC is the best all around. Period. I say so. Proven. No further commentary needed. No better bullet exists.\\

As you might have noticed im a fan of elmer and his bullet but i dont consider it the best bullet ever designed for handguns. That title would have to go to a man i dont think a whole lot about. Veral smith and his LFN. Its just easier to find accuracy for. Flys better then any design at long range and is every bit as good on game as the kieth. But if you want an arrogant blow hole veral gets my #1 pick right along with his bullet. I chuckle most at his lube. If you ask him your a stupid _____ --- if you dont use it. In my opinion lars on here made better lube at 1/3 the price. Verals lube was ok but it was sure over priced. As was his hardness tester which doesnt compare to a cabin tree or his glorified aluminum lee molds that cost 1/2 again what an rcbs mold cost and as much as a ballistic cast which is 10 times the mold. I chuckle too at his "Best spruce plate ever designed" it a stamped steel thin spruce plate that is cheap to make period. I rate his molds about equal to lees 6 cav molds. Not close to the longevity and quality of an rcbs, ballistic cast, saeco or some of the brass and steel molds made by the custom guys that do the group buys from here. Way to many drank verals kool-aid. Now theres a man who pats himself on the back. truth be told some here have shot more handgun bullets down range in a year then he has in his lifetime. but i sure will give him that pat on the back for bringing us the LFN.

[405grain]

I've got a question for the OP: Hey Wolfdog91, you were asking a question about the Keith type bullet, (man, did you ever whack the hornets nest with that one!). Since this is a revolver bullet, are you contemplating getting a revolver? If so, what caliber? Single action or double action? Folks on this site can give you all kinds of advise about what works and what won't based on the type of gun and what caliber it is. This thread has explored the opinions of the Keith style boolit, so please start another thread and discuss what you might want to apply this type of bullet for.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have several .44 cal. moulds. My first was Lee 429-240 gc . Those boolits always worked well in the M29 and I could get consistent 1.5" groups at 25 yards with that gun. But I was 28 years old and could shoot better,,, I think?

I got a Magna Mould for a short SWC of 190 gr that runs in a machine. Accuracy was abysmal. never used it again and settled on .429421 as my goto .44 Pistol Boolit. I PC them now but never had any problems with leading barrels in my Ruger SBH or S&W 696 using plain Lubes.

I do .44 Special for my 696 with a MP 429421 mould which allows for 3 different HPs and a solid, but I mostly shoot solids.. I run that same boolit in my Mid Range .44 Magnum loads for my SBH Bisley.

The other mould I use is the MP 429244 CG mould which is used in my Full Power Rifle loads. This one comes out 260 gr and will do the same HP's as the other mould. Mostly run solids there as well.

Both of these boolits offer superb accuracy and work well in the roles they are used in. IE; Short Range Silhouette and Plinking. I would not hesitate to take an Elk with my 1894 CB Rifle and those boolits. The loads I shoot in that rifle are very close to my .45-70 loads which are not near the top end for a .45-70 but right up there for a .44 Magnum Rifle.

But a 325 gr boolit at 1600 fps will still take anything in the US. If hunting Elk with that gun it would get some .405 gr boolits instead of the 325 gr ones I shoot most often. The loads for that gun were sussed out with a usable trajectory out to 200M, and low enough recoil to be able to stand shooting 40-50 rounds in one morning.

I had ambitions of getting a Ruger 77/44 which is very sensitive to OAL of the cartridge. I bought a MP .44 Devastator mould for that, but haven't gotten the gun yet, and have not used the mould yet either. Like all other MP moulds I expect nothing but perfect boolits out of it from the get go.

In closing I see very little use for the Myriad Boolit moulds for the .44 cal. In my opinion you can mostly get by with 429421 and 429244GC or even a Lee 429240GC. And Powder Coating them just makes them run that much nicer. My barrels look like the have been lapped to perfection.

YMMV

Randy

[Wolfdog91]

I've got a question for the OP: Hey Wolfdog91, you were asking a question about the Keith type bullet, (man, did you ever whack the hornets nest with that one!). Since this is a revolver bullet, are you contemplating getting a revolver? If so, what caliber? Single action or double action? Folks on this site can give you all kinds of advise about what works and what won't based on the type of gun and what caliber it is. This thread has explored the opinions of the Keith style boolit, so please start another thread and discuss what you might want to apply this type of bullet for.

Honestly I was just curious. I watch alot if videos and try to read a good bit and I hear alot if guys say stuff along the lines of " yeah my new mold is an original KEITH ! design" but never saw a video or article that point blank explained what that ment. I'm not the kind of person that get told a certain design is good and I just believe it, I need to know some specifics. Why is is so good? For what ? Why was it made ect. Just how my brain works lol. Honestly wasn't trying to start a fire. I know a little about the guy but not too much

[Wolfdog91]

If you are confused by what I said, which I hope not, is when you mention Elmer Keith in a question you have everyone from those who think Keith could do no wrong to those that thinks he is the worst thing to come along. Then they pile on and both sides start telling how great he was and then the others pile on telling how worthless he and his ideas were and how big a liar he was.
That is what I meant. Just when his name is mentioned, watch out.
I think he was a very smart person in knowing what to do and what worked for him. That takes a smart person. In his later years he did very little experimentation. He didn't need to. He was SMART enough to keep doing what worked for him by using what worked.
Did he think his bullet was great, yes he did, just like most of us would do. Are there better bullets, no doubt, since his "KEITH" design has been fiddled with, fooled with, messed with, till with as many variations there are there has got to be some bad "KEITH" bullets out there.
So what, there are a lot of others out there that may be better than a messed up "KEITH" bullet but not any better than a great "KEITH" design.
There are many "KEITH" bullets out in the cast bullet world. Seek, find a few designs, and set out on an experimenting experience, find what works and stick with it.
Sorry if I was the one who confused you. Just meaning when the name Elmer Keith comes up there will be controversy. That is what I meant designed to be controversial whether meant to be or not. Just the name Elmer Keith is all it takes.

O ok makes sense, it's the same thing in the trapping community when you mention O'gorman.

[44MAG#1]

O ok makes sense, it's the same thing in the trapping community when you mention O'gorman.

You will find certain topics will lead down the road of controversy. Elmer Keith is one. Sometimes Jeff Cooper is another depending on the forum site. Jack O'Connor can be.
Oh yes, Lee products especially their FCD. Best to not ask about it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have several .44 cal. moulds. My first was Lee 429-240 gc . Those boolits always worked well in the M29 and I could get consistent 1.5" groups at 25 yards with that gun. But I was 28 years old and could shoot better,,, I think?

I got a Magna Mould for a short SWC of 190 gr that runs in a machine. Accuracy was abysmal. never used it again and settled on .429421 as my goto .44 Pistol Boolit. I PC them now but never had any problems with leading barrels in my Ruger SBH or S&W 696 using plain Lubes.

I do .44 Special for my 696 with a MP 429421 mould which allows for 3 different HPs and a solid, but I mostly shoot solids.. I run that same boolit in my Mid Range .44 Magnum loads for my SBH Bisley.

The other mould I use is the MP 429244 CG mould which is used in my Full Power Rifle loads. This one comes out 260 gr and will do the same HP's as the other mould. Mostly run solids there as well.

Both of these boolits offer superb accuracy and work well in the roles they are used in. IE; Short Range Silhouette and Plinking. I would not hesitate to take an Elk with my 1894 CB Rifle and those boolits. The loads I shoot in that rifle are very close to my .45-70 loads which are not near the top end for a .45-70 but right up there for a .44 Magnum Rifle.

But a 325 gr boolit at 1600 fps will still take anything in the US. If hunting Elk with that gun it would get some .405 gr boolits instead of the 325 gr ones I shoot most often. The loads for that gun were sussed out with a usable trajectory out to 200M, and low enough recoil to be able to stand shooting 40-50 rounds in one morning.

I had ambitions of getting a Ruger 77/44 which is very sensitive to OAL of the cartridge. I bought a MP .44 Devastator mould for that, but haven't gotten the gun yet, and have not used the mould yet either. Like all other MP moulds I expect nothing but perfect boolits out of it from the get go.

In closing I see very little use for the Myriad Boolit moulds for the .44 cal. In my opinion you can mostly get by with 429421 and 429244GC or even a Lee 429240GC. And Powder Coating them just makes them run that much nicer. My barrels look like the have been lapped to perfection.

YMMV

Randy

my two favorite 44 mid range bullets arent kieths there swc and both wear a gas check. The lyman 244 and the rcbs 240swcgc. for the most part if those two bullets dont shoot real well in your gun take it to the dealer and trade it. ive yet to find a good 44 that didnt love those two bullets. Ill say the same about the lbt 250 and 280 lfngcs.

[W.R.Buchanan]

When I am looking for a load for any gun the first thing I do is look at an older reloading manual and find boolits and powders I already have. Then I try a load and if it delivers accuracy and other performance I am looking for I'm done! Time to go shoot something. The idea of endlessly searching for the perfect load is a foreign concept to me. I want something simple that works. I might add that in most cases, the first load I pick is the one that delivers. Maybe I'm just too lucky?

Perfect example was my RGS when I finally burned up the 100 factory rounds I had bought. I asked around and several guys said IMR4895 for the .308, so I went to the old Lyman Manual I have and picked out 45 gr with a 150 gr bullet which appeared to deliver 2650-2700 fps.. My bullets are actually 147 M80 Ball Pulls I paid .13 each for some time back, but who's going to quibble about 3 gr?

That load delivered 7/8MOA at 2680 fps and would repeat on demand, so that is the only load I have ever tried in that gun. The 100 Cases have been reloaded 13 times as of this writing! Never lost one yet.

I use the same load for my .30-06's and my NRA Sporter Replica that is coming to fruition will be shot with that load, and 16 gr of 2400 for a Cast Boolit Load. I have every confidence that those two loads will do exactly what I need from them and there won't be any need to search for another. My other .30-06's perform well with those loads so it is logical to think that they will perform in this gun as well.

One of the only guns I chased a load for was my .45-70 1895 CB Marlin Levergun. I started at 25 gr of 5744 with a RCBS .45-300 FNGC which drops over sized, and at 325 gr, and kept increasing the charge until I got a usable Trajectory and Tolerable Recoil enough to be able to shoot 40-50 in one morning and not need medical help. It turned out to be 33 gr of 5744 and that's what delivered what I needed as well as a 1.75" group at 100 yards with iron sights. Nuff said,,, now go shoot something!!!

My whole point here is that there are very few boolits for the .44 that will outperform 429421 and 429244 so the need to go looking is kind of Moot. What works is well established for nearly 100 years so all you have to do is follow the instructions on the heel, and go shoot something.

That's what I do.

Randy

[robertbank]

Randy I agree on the 429321. The only caution I would add is if the mold you buy was made in the last 15 years check the diameter of bullet your mold drops. I use WW alloy and water quench when I think U should. My Lyman mold bought in the last 15 years drops bullet 429 in diameter and sometimes less. I could figure out why my Rossi shot 18" groups at 50 yards. The bullets were just rolling down the soon to be leaded barrel.

Take Care

Bob

[Taterhead]

RCBS BULLET MOULD .45-255-SWC 424 and the design tweaked version RCBS .45-270-SAA 424 are supposed to be very good bullets. I might buy one of these after a little more research.
I don’t know if a SWC will feed smoothly into a Win M73 rifle. I can’t imagine they’ll just drop into the chambers of my Ruger New Vaquero’s without snagging on the chamber edge.

My only experience with a SWC design bullet is with some commercial cast for 357 Mag.
The SWC lip that is responsible for cutting nice clean holes in the target paper gave me fits trying to load them into the cylinder of S&W 686. That paper cutting lip would snag on the chamber edge every time whether I loaded singly or jiggled 6 in a speed loader.

Lesson learned from loading my 357, for my 45 Colt cartridges I prefer to cast a smooth feeding RNFP, I don’t care that they tear a ragged hole in the paper target.

I can say definitively that the RCBS 45-255-SWC will fit the cylinder of a New Vaquero when seated to crimp into the crimp groove. Not much room to spare, bit it does fit. That's the only gun I load 45 Colt for.

[mehavey]

You must open the cylinders to 0.4525 for the RCBS 270* in the New Vaquero
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?397608-Hardness-14-15&p=4847843&viewfull=1#post4847843

Shoots like a dream after that.



* (actually casts a little heavier)

[GLynn41]

they shoot good normally-- killed my first deer with one ....410459--- pleasant memories for me

[Jed426]

The thing I love about it is it’s ability to be accurate and remain stabilized at low velocity and high velocity as well. I have shot it at 700 FPS and in a 14” contender, it is still accurate at
More than twice that. It penetrates straight and the critters I’ve taken were bang flops. Contrary to its appearance, it is accurate in some revolvers that could actually use some forcing cone work. Elmer Keith got it right.

Mr. Keith got a LOT right.

[derek45]

it ain’t bragging if you can do it

Keith was a do’er more than a writer

he was out there shooting

my arsenal #503 Keith mold is my favorite 44 mold

he was not an arrogant braggart, read SIXGUNS and you will learn he’s not above laughing at himself

pulling out his camera to get a close up shot of a trapped big cat is a good example

SIXGUNS is an excellent revolver book and is only $13 on amazon


290963

[mehavey]

Personally..... It prefer
https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Was-There-Elmer-Keith/dp/0941540162

(Glad I got mine years ago)
:bigsmyl2:

[gwpercle]

I was thinking about the OP's question ...what's so special about a keith boolit .
If you look back to the time he was working on the design ... it was 1920's - 1930's
Looking at the factory cartriges in his books "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" 1936 ... and a lesser extent in "SixGuns" 1955 ...photo's of older factory ammo ... most ammo was loaded with round nose boolits ... there just wasn't anything else and the round nose wasn't that great of a effective boolit.
The flat SWC offered an improvement and it wasn't difficult to get it . A Lyman mould and you could cast an improved boolit . My first mould was a Keith SWC ... it has a RN beat seven ways to Sunday .
Gary

[Petander]

Yes it was Elmer's flat nose vs. trad RN. Also his hot loads.

Now we have hot prices.

https://i.postimg.cc/cCdZ91BJ/IMG-20211028-WA0001.jpg

[Beagle333]

Wow, I didn't realize my stash of EK books were worth so much! (got em years ago).

(still not for sale)

[smithnframe]

I have several signed 1st editions!

[derek45]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GDR4MVW/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0

https://i.imgur.com/qCk60xM.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/RTAqSwd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EPydk5A.jpg

[Petander]

Thank you Derek.

https://i.postimg.cc/nrXKkGVz/IMG-20211029-WA0000.jpg

[gwpercle]

Another very interesting read , that was availible on Amazon for $10-$12 , last I looked ...
Elmer Keith's " Sixgun Cartridges & Loads " 1936 ... it's a hard cover reprint done in 2016.
I just chcked on Amazon $9.95 w/ free shipping & In Stock !!!
... Man for that price it worth having the book just for the photo's . The powder charges are Keith Level so watch them ...but the chapters on casting boolits and lead alloy hardness , hollow points and cast boolits in general are still very much usefull .
I learned from it what Tin / Lead mixes to use when I run out of wheel weights ... Tin and Lead is all he was using ... and those mixes were good to know .
There is still some useful info in there and it is 100% reloading & casting ... $9.95 Come on Man ...
It's so cheap you can't afford not to buy a copy !
Gary

[44MAG#1]

I have three books from Elmer Keith that were signed by him, ordered from him in Salmon, Idaho. In the 70's.

[derek45]

I've been looking for "Hell, I was there" for years, but can't bring myself to pay $200.

I wish they'd put it on Kindle

glad to see SIXGUNS is published and affordable again.

[GLynn41]

Keiths if you like them shoot them work well-- do not like em do not shoot them
for me it is part of my shooting history.. first deer 410459-+ground hogs.. used in .44 -.41 .38/ 357-- like anything they can do what they can do well what they can't do they can not do it well -- every thing has limits-- and on ground hogs and deer the shoulder does cut-- in the .41 Lyman keith and the NOE keith- I had two different Saeco s they did cut well more like LFN-- anyway the concept is Old-- Glenn Fryxell? can educate you on it as prementioned-- and I remember felix a true gentleman, and a scholar-- he thought the .41 mag / and 10 mm did not need lpp-- spmags would be good--interesting-- may be on to something Gary Reeder uses sp magnums in some of his .454 wildcats and they work well-- I have one...me personally for most of my shooting-- I will still want a keith. the NOE gives me hps, cup points and solids--love it

[alamogunr]

Personally..... It prefer
https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Was-There-Elmer-Keith/dp/0941540162

(Glad I got mine years ago)
:bigsmyl2:

+1 Not sure when I got it but it was in almost new condition and is in slightly less new condition now.

[alamogunr]

I finally got thru the entire thread and have a question: All the references to the "Keith" bullet use the Lyman #. I have at least four RCBS molds for .44 caliber SWC's. As would be expected, all are 2 cavity. Can someone point to an Accurate mold that comes closest to the 429421. I would like to get a 4 cavity mold.

I found an Accurate mold that is a clone of the .454190 that I've been wanting for quite awhile for my 45's. I don't hunt and that RNFP will load the cylinder much easier than SWC's. Maybe I can order both at the same time.

[AnthonyB]

Accurate 43-250K looks closest to me, but I don’t have one. The RCBS 44-250K is the closest they have to what Keith envisioned. It was my favorite 44 until I got the MP 503, and is still a favorite. Only problems with it are the two cavity limitations and it casts too small for my Redhawk.
Tony

[derek45]

44mag

https://i.imgur.com/z1oEwmp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
357 mag

https://i.imgur.com/9Ybxl8R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NyYQStU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/d1kIVns.jpg

[robertbank]

I enjoyed "Hell I Was There" There is one part in hte book that he writes about that most certainly did not happen. He claimed he shot a deer and took 4: of it's spine out. The deer than was supposed to have run off a hundred yards or so. With 4" of it's s[ine removed it never ran anywhere. I have seen a buck try to pull itself along after it's spine was severed with it's front legs but that would be all his deer could have done. Not withstanding this, the book is an excellent read about a time in the US that for the most part, ss gone forever.

The book is available on amazon.ca for $758. Cdn (614.US)

Take Care
Bob

[44MAG#1]

I enjoyed "Hell I Was There" There is one part in hte book that he writes about that most certainly did not happen. He claimed he shot a deer and took 4: of it's spine out. The deer than was supposed to have run off a hundred yards or so. With 4" of it's s[ine removed it never ran anywhere. I have seen a buck try to pull itself along after it's spine was severed with it's front legs but that would be all his deer could have done. Not withstanding this, the book is an excellent read about a time in the US that for the most part, ss gone forever.

The book is available on amazon.ca for $758. Cdn (614.US)

Take Care
Bob

Is what you are referring to on page 146, the last paragraph?

[robertbank]

Could be it has been awhile since I read the book. The statement stuck with me. I hope my memory has it right. Uf you have the book in front of you please quote the passage.

Take Care

Bob

[onelight]

It was on page 146 of the printing I have.
He was about 80 when that book was published ,
I will give him the benefit of the doubt and blame that on memory or a publishing/editing error , or it happened as printed.
I have seen articles and news reports of horrible wounds to the central nervous system that people survived and continued to function in some fashion .
I have no doubt the same holds true of animals on occasion.

[44MAG#1]

In my non professional study of the entity known as a human being I have come to the determined conclusion that NONE, no NOT ANYONE, ANY ANYWHERE, is perfect. Elmer Keith is the one I have followed over the years. I still think he was "THE MAN".
Even with that being said. He was not perfect. None of us are. Never will be anytime or anyplace.
That still doesn't diminish my view of Elmer Keith in any way.

[alamogunr]

Accurate 43-250K looks closest to me, but I don’t have one. The RCBS 44-250K is the closest they have to what Keith envisioned. It was my favorite 44 until I got the MP 503, and is still a favorite. Only problems with it are the two cavity limitations and it casts too small for my Redhawk.
Tony

Right next to the mold you referenced is 43-250J with the note that it is a clone of 429421. I am considering ordering the "J" version.

I guess I would have never found it if not for your guidance.

[AnthonyB]

Glad I got you close!

[robertbank]

It was on page 146 of the printing I have.
He was about 80 when that book was published ,
I will give him the benefit of the doubt and blame that on memory or a publishing/editing error , or it happened as printed.
I have seen articles and news reports of horrible wounds to the central nervous system that people survived and continued to function in some fashion .
I have no doubt the same holds true of animals on occasion.

I followed old Elmer trough his writings in Guns & Ammo. He had lots to say and was not afraid to say it. He knew his stuff. i am not so sure he was not above embellishing some of is stories but who is to know and really whart difference does it make? His animal did not run anywhere with any part of his spine removed. We all know that. Elmer did to.

The book is a great read and speaks to a much more gentle America where time and space was more distant. I find his accounts covering his Alberta/BC hunts of particular interest because I can connect to an Alberta shortly after the war. What we did in the early 50's and what is allowed today are is different as apples and oranges. Times have changed and there is no going back I am afraid.

Take Care

Bob

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I have not read every page of this post so what I am about to write may have been covered. I read all of Keith's writings and had an autograph copy of his last book. If I remember correctly Elmer was very upset with Lyman for making a change in his mold design after he sold it to them. They made the grease groves round instead of square. I still read ads for the 44cal design where the question is asked, are the groves round or square.

[gwpercle]

In my non professional study of the entity known as a human being I have come to the determined conclusion that NONE, no NOT ANYONE, ANY ANYWHERE, is perfect. Elmer Keith is the one I have followed over the years. I still think he was "THE MAN".
Even with that being said. He was not perfect. None of us are. Never will be anytime or anyplace.
That still doesn't diminish my view of Elmer Keith in any way.

Well Said ... I would like to Second that sentiment !

Gary

[Petander]

"I will read this first."

https://i.postimg.cc/bJG85J4j/IMG-20211105-171838-991.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

I've been using "Keith" 44 bullets since '68. I've cast them from a variety of different moulds of different makes. I never found any real difference between any of them accuracy or performance wise. The square lube groove is unnecessary and provided no discernable benefit I could determine with todays (since the advent of the NRA 50/50 lube) modern lubes. A couple of the square lube groove moulds were a PITA with some alloys as the bullets did not drop easily from the cavities. I now have just 2 "Keith" moulds; a 2 cavity RCBS 44-250-K and a 4 cavity Lyman 429421.

Truth be known I shoot more of the Lee TL430-240-SWCs with standard 44 SPL loads (usually 5 gr Bullseye) and similar (6 gr Bullseye) load in 44 magnum cases because the Lee 6 cavity mould casts a bunch very quickly. However, the Lyman 429421 casts excellent bullets almost as fast and the preponderance of "Skeeter" 44 SPL loads, Medium level and full magnum level 44 Magnum loads I shoot are with that bullet. While I certainly have and would again hunt with either the RCBS or Lyman bullets with full bore 44 magnum loads I now prefer the Lyman 429640HP Devastator as, when cast of 20-1 or 16-1 alloy, gives better terminal affect on game.

The "Keith" 44 bullet, of what ever design, is "special" because it is accurate over a wide range of velocity, accurate at distance (probably a greater distance than we should be shooting) and is quite effective on game.

[Jtarm]

Elmer’s books on Kindle? He’s rolling in his grave!

Personally I prefer a fat WFN over an SWC.

[murf205]

Elmer’s books on Kindle? He’s rolling in his grave!

Personally I prefer a fat WFN over an SWC.

I do too....but....I've been trying to prove to myself that the Keith type is inferior as far as accuracy since I cast the first one in 1974 and shot it through everything you can imagine but the darn thing just keeps on performing on targets and game great. Just like Elmer said to start with.

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/FRhkt3mL/IMG-20211106-150915-997.jpg

[alamogunr]

This thread got me thinking about .44 molds. I decided to inventory my .44 molds. The most interesting thing I ran across among about a dozen molds is a Lyman/Ideal single cavity 429421 mold. It was pushed to the back of a shelf. The box is marked as Lyman Ideal. The mold itself is just marked Ideal, Middlefield, Conn. Both blocks are marked "36".

Most interesting is, it is in the original box marked new. I know I have never cast with it. Any idea how old it may be?

I don't know how long I have had it or where it came from. When I first got started casting, only about 25-30 years ago, I wasn't too particular about what molds I bought. Most came from Ebay. This was before they got crazy $$ for molds.

[Jtarm]

he thought the .41 mag / and 10 mm did not need lpp-- spmags would be good--interesting-

What’s an lpp? And an spmag?

[oley55]

What’s an lpp? And an spmag?

I'll guess and suggest lpp is large pistol primers and spmag is small pistol magnum primers.

[Jtarm]

I do too....but....I've been trying to prove to myself that the Keith type is inferior as far as accuracy since I cast the first one in 1974 and shot it through everything you can imagine but the darn thing just keeps on performing on targets and game great. Just like Elmer said to start with.

Yep, there’s no disputing the accuracy.

[PhatForrest]

The 158gr MP Keith SWC has to be my favorite boolit to cast, load, and shoot.

Elmer was a pioneer back when it still meant something.