Bnh for deer

[snowman485]

What hardness are you using for whitetail deer hunting in either 44 or 45 cal handgun? Are you looking for soft for expansion or hard for penetration? Is there a good middle of the road bnh that works well for hunting.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Elmer Keith used a 20/1 lead/tin alloy that was about 10 bhn. I have shot this alloy powdered coated over stiff loads of 2400 and 296 out of my .44 Blackhawk without issues. These were plain based boolits too.

[BigboreShooter]

I’ve shot many deer with both jacketed and cast. With your larger bores,.40cal on up. I don’t see a large difference.I might say the jacketed gave slightly quicker kills,but the difference is not earth shattering.With the price of jacketed bullets today, I’ll stick with cast for 90% my hunting.

BigboreShooter

[DougGuy]

I like 50/50+2% which is I guess bhn10-12? Can scratch it with a thumbnail, these stay together well when they hit bone, widest meplat I can get but NO hp needed, and expansion is not needed either. You likely will not recover any 44 or 45 caliber cast boolit from a whitetail, so boolit hardness is a moot point.

[GLynn41]

I am in Tn and we must use expanding bullets--- Veral Smith said WW can start expanding at 1200 fps impact-- so I have several hp molds and use that 1100+ impact as my cut off or accuracy

[Goofy]

Paper patched pure lead, MV 1,600 fps. Shot taken at 80 yards, 160# doe didn't take a step. Under the hide off side after breaking both forelegs, 5 ribs and cutting the heart in half.

https://i.imgur.com/RENinxM.jpg

They work fine in the RSB or variants thereof. Sans paper patch I'd be looking for BHN of 9-10 and a card wad under the bullet if it's not a gas check design.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd work up the fastest, safest, most accurate load and not over think this.

If ya hit a deer with a well placed shot from either of those at handgun speeds,
it will die just as fast with a soft boolit, as a hard one.

If you're concerned about poor shot placement, or too far of a range, practice.
Then use a soft, heavy, hollow point going as fast as you dare to make as big of a wound channel as possible.

[Castaway]

I think more important than hardness in a pistol bullet is the meplat. A 45 starts out as large as a 30 caliber ends up. If there’s a large and flat nose, no expansion is necessary. In fact, too soft at pistol velocities and you’re pushing a parachute that may not give an exit hole.

[koger]

Castaway I agree, those big flat noses push a lot of tissue out of the way, and do about as much, sometimes more damage than a HP, or soft bullet. I have a 300gr mold on the way for shooting in my Ruger blackhawk and Lever action Ross 92, should be bad news for bear or deer under 100yds.

[hc18flyer]

I used a 9.3 bhn .45-270 grain rnfp at 1050fps out of my Ruger Blackhawk to take a whitetail buck in 2019. I have a hp mold, but don't think it is necessary. Tom

[1Papalote]

I've taken deer with the 45 colt and 357 using Marlins. Metal was the same in both, ww+2%, in order to get diameters. I have no idea how hard these are but they are accurate and work well. The 357 is GC.
What WingerEd said.

[Thumbcocker]

I have hunted white tails for about 20 years with .44 revolvers. I have used acww and wdww. I load for accuracy first and foremost.

I would love to tell you all about the exhaustive research I did on choosing the alloy but the fact is it is what I had. Upshot; you plug a deer in the vitals and they die. The only difference i have noted is that heart shot deer run further than lung shot deer. Put the boolit in the right place and enjoy the backstraps.

[444ttd]

I have hunted white tails for about 20 years with .44 revolvers. I have used acww and wdww. I load for accuracy first and foremost.

I would love to tell you all about the exhaustive research I did on choosing the alloy but the fact is it is what I had. Upshot; you plug a deer in the vitals and they die. The only difference i have noted is that heart shot deer run further than lung shot deer. Put the boolit in the right place and enjoy the backstraps.

yep, i agree.

[Edward]

Elmer Keith used a 20/1 lead/tin alloy that was about 10 bhn. I have shot this alloy powdered coated over stiff loads of 2400 and 296 out of my .44 Blackhawk without issues. These were plain based boolits too.

Which tells me with Elmers everyday load of anything (PURE) is all you need for expansion/penetration especially pc-ed

[MT Gianni]

30 caliber rifle bullets hope to expand to 45 caliber. You're starting there, don't over think things.

[Harter66]

I cast a 50/50 454424 NOE version, broke ,3 ribs and exited the soft part of the shoulder blade on a 165# hoof weight hog . The off side shield had a clean about .600 hole in it , 1050 fps MV . Same load at powder burn exited a little over 3' cutting 4 ribs , chest shield and exiting the ham .

4/5 hogs dropped within a few steps . #1 ran about 200 yd , but it was all juiced up and on a full greyhound streched out 8-10' stride full run .

Plain base , Unique fueled .

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
For revolver Dan Wesson we use range scrap But we also hunt river bottoms and our farthest shot is still 33 yards. Most are 12 yards and under with the corn cruncher doing their slow mossy through the cover. With 270 - 300 FN grainers at 950-1000 fps it is not a hard shot and no slug has ever been recovered. Smack the shoulders and they go down.
The river bottom hunting is why I do the bulk of my bean eater thinning with a bow and long pointy sharp flying things.

[gunseller]

I like hard. I can't mark them with my thumbnail. In 44 I use a Keith style SWC. In 45 I use a rnfp with a wide flat point. In revolvers I have shot deer from 10 yards out to 200 yards. Bullet just goes all the way through, wiping out everything in it's way. Don't over think. Just shoot what shoots well and go hunting.
Steve

[Tripplebeards]

I mixed up some 16:1 Lyman devastators with pewter and pure soft lead. I PC & GC them. I have a load that shoots sub MOA with the soft alloy. The BH is 7.8. I use it in my Ruger 77/44 loaded around 1600 FPS. I will try it out on a deer this anterless season. I’ve used hard cast at 16.5 BH and it sails right through deer like a FMJ or an arrow with a field point. No blood trails and a lot long frustrating tracking. Not the case o have found our with soft alloys that expand. Look at my old thread of deer I shot last year with my 35 Rem using 105 BH 50/50 alloy in a HP cast boolit loaded at 2100 FPS. I dropped it on its tracks with a fist size hole in and out of its rib cage. The hide had a boolit size hole in and out. Hard alloys imo are not for hunting. Shoot the softest alloy that you can make accurate enough to hit where you aim.

[megasupermagnum]

That is such an open ended question. 44 and 45 caliber handguns can vary from rather weak, to some of the most powerful in the world. It also matters what I would be after.

If I were to hunt with say a 45 ACP, I would choose the Lee 255gr SWC, and I would cast it of range scrap. Hardness of the bullet does not matter in this case. I want a solid, as hollow point bullets for the 45 ACP are all designed for huge expansion. They pretty much flatten out into coins, which is not ideal for hunting. Since I use a solid bullet at lower velocity, about 850 fps in this case, you wont see expansion with that no matter what, and alloy would not matter.

Now if I were to hunt with a 44 magnum, I would choose a Keith 250 gr hollow point. I cast those of 20:1 alloy, as that has about the best toughness, with no brittleness, yet expands really well. I choose a hollow point, as a 44 has an excess of power for the medium size animals I hunt. I might lean towards a solid if going after something larger like elk or moose, but I'm not quite sure. You could certainly use a solid in a 44 magnum for medium game, but you are subjecting yourself to more recoil for nothing. Now a downloaded 44 magnum you might have a better candidate for a solid. Something like the Keith bullet of 20:1 alloy cast as a solid, but only shoot it 1000 fps, you would have a more pleasant shooting round that would penetrate real well, and still be very lethal.

Now if you were to go to something like the 454 Casull or 460 s&w, then you would want a harder alloy simply for the fact those cartridges run up around 65,000 PSI. I would definitely use a bullet with a gas check no matter what. For medium size game, I would probably download them, but lets say we want to run these at their potential for whatever reason. I would probably opt for a bullet about 300 grain. Any lighter, and they get going so fast I can only imagine accuracy tough to find. Even a 300 grain bullet looks like you can get about 1600 fps with the Casull, and 1800+ with the 460. In this instance, I would try my range scrap, which should be close to DougGuy's 50/50 alloy. If that didn't shoot well, I would add a little linotype, to get to about 94% lead, 3% tin, and 3% antimony. There is enough speed there, you could see some expansion with a solid. I might even try a cup point, if the mold had the option. If I were to go after real big game, something like moose, grizzly bear hippo, cape buffalo, the animals these level calibers were really intended for, then I would stick with a solid for sure, and may consider an even heavier bullet if it shot more accurately, and I would probably water quench that same alloy for the same reason.

For the record, I've used both those 45 ACP and 44 magnum for hunting, so that is speaking from personal experience. I've never even owned a 454 or 460, so that is purely hypothetical. I'm a fan of large holes in animals. As long as I get a bullet through the lungs under any reasonable shot angle, I could care less about a bullet exit or blood trail. While we have the deer to prove non-expanding solids are very much lethal to deer, I was not all that impressed with what I saw. If you want to shoot a solid bullet at a deer, you would be better off to use a 357 magnum, which has far less recoil, and provides more or less the same size hole as a downloaded 44 magnum. I prefer expanding bullets in the 357 magnum too BTW.

The alloys you want to avoid no matter what, are alloys high in antimony, and low in tin. This creates an alloy that is hard, but very brittle. You don't want bullets shattering. Hardball is a horrible for hunting. "Range scrap" can be, depending on what exactly you have. I add about 2% tin to mine, which should be more tin than antimony. I don't understand the metallurgy, but if you add tin and antimony in equal amounts, it apparently bonds, and becomes less brittle. Linotype is equal tin and antimony, and apparently works well. Personally if I want a harder alloy, I will always opt for quenching. Clip on wheel weights, water quenched can be way harder than linotype, and still be a tougher alloy too, because it has much less antimony. Alloys of only tin and lead are superb for hunting. Cream of the crop in my opinion. I only use them for hunting, because they cost far too much for general shooting. 20:1 always has been, and always will be one of the best overall alloys ever. I've tried 16:1, and didn't notice much difference. I do wonder how 10:1 will do against my range scrap plus tin, as both are about the same hardness.

[YippyKiYay]

I've used soft lead for muzzleloaders and WW's for modern pistols both with good results. Deer are easy to kill if you hit them in the right place. In the wrong place a 458 WM wont help you.
My Dad's mentor, a WW1 Vet, swore by the 25-20 as a deer killing machine. He lived in the Hill country and used iron sights only. Pop's favorite was a 22 Mag FMJ and head shots....Yea I know....

[Tripplebeards]

Imo the wrong place with hard non expanding boolits are anywhere other than a shoulder or backbone shot. I’m am not a fan of head shooting deer so that’s not an option along with guessing where the backbone is. Most shooters shoot cast minute of pie plate so imo the shooters that connect with both are more lucky than skilled IMO and not aiming for either to begin with. I’ve witnessed many of deer that the “so called marksman” thought they missed running around on property wounded. If you use “soft” expanding lead you can aim for the heart and lung area with good results. I tried both hard and soft alloys. I’ll try and find both posts and link here.

Found them...


To hard of an alloy....


https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!



And nice and sold alloy...

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?414159-Finally-shot-a-deer-with-my-Marlin-336-and-our-200-grain-HP-group-buy!



With a slower moving boolit from a pistol you are not going to get anywhere’s near the expansion that my 336 did but I’m sure you will get some good expansion as long as use you use soft alloy.

[gunseller]

I still go with a big cal and hard bullets. I have hart shot deer with a 200 gr swc doing around 600fps. Deer was down in 20 feet. No explanation of bullet. I have shoot 260gr rnfp flat based out of a 454. They go through deer and crush everything g I side and go o out the other side no expantion.
Steve

[Castaway]

Again, the original post was about pistols, not rifles with their extra velocity. A 255 or 300 grain, relatively hard bullet, most likely will make an exit hole on a broadside shot, even if it strikes a rib or shoulder. Too soft and it may not go out of the far side. I’m not saying it won’t, but the odds go down considerably. I’m sure lots of folks have done it and funny things happen when flesh is hit. Once I hit a 90 doe broadside at 90 yards with a 423 grain, putty soft, paper patched bullet exiting the muzzle at 1850 f/s. Expanded to the size of a quarter and didn’t leave the deer. Highly unusual.