Rechamber a 32WCF

[MotelAlpha]

I have found a nice single shot 1885 low wall in 32WCF. However, it does have a rather poor bore if I want to get serious at single shot , then I am looking at total barrel or liner. Your thoughts on this rifle are appreciated. The auction ends in June
Thanks all!!

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1037/53/special-order-winchester-deluxe-model-1885-low-wall-rifle

[Eddie Southgate]

Reline would be the way I would go after I shot it a bit and found for sure that it really needed it . #2013 in the same auction would be my choice if I were bidding . Lo Wall's would not be my choice due to strength and weight . Too heavy to suit me for the small cartridges normally used in them . Does look like a very nice rifle if the 32-20 is what you want .

[marlinman93]

Considering what a rare special order gun it is, I'd only consider relining it and retaining the .32WCF caliber. A Low Wall with a letter that confirms it's features as it is will bring more value keeping it as original as possible. Should be fair interest in that one at the auction.
I didn't see any mention of a bad bore? Have you already examined it and know it's poor?

[Kraschenbirn]

If you're going to have to re-do the barrel, you'll lose a considerable amout of the 'collector' value and end up with a rather expensive 'shooter'. While .32 WCF is not currently catalogued by either, both Uberti and Pedersoli manufacture reproduction Low-Walls and I know for certain that, a few years back, Cimarron marketed a 'deluxe' model of the Uberti in that caliber 'cause I've got one (and, no, it's not for sale!). If it were me, I'd look around for one of the reproduction guns. You might get lucky and find a 32WCF or, failing that, latch onto one of the .22s...either rimfire or .22 Hornet...and have it rebored by JES.

Bill

[MotelAlpha]

All good points, and had considered some as well...Since at my age I am no longer really interested in a "collector" only rifle, This one is not so high yet to pass on cuz of intrinsic values, but yes the #2012 is alson a fine looking rifle. As for the bore, I checked and didn't really get a warm and fuzzy. I think if I leap it would surely be shot first to discern an other approach

[GARD72977]

For me a rebarrelling a gun hurts nothing but you pocket book. As long as you keep the original barrel with the gun its history is preserved. You will just pay a premium for a classic shooter.

If your finances allow you to get a original Low Wall I would avoid the Italian copies. Another oltion would be a C.Sharps.

[marlinman93]

I'd disagree that a collector firearm will lose significant value being relined, vs. original poor bore. Nobody wants a collector gun with a bad bore, and the bad bore will hurt it's value far more than a properly relined barrel. It wont be as valuable as the same gun with a nice original bore, but it will certainly be more valuable than the poor bore.
First thing guys do when they pick up an old gun at a show or store is check the bore. If it looks worn out they'll usually put it back down, and walk away. If it's a new relined bore or a nice original bore they'll keep looking it over.

[MotelAlpha]

Marliman93
I concur with your analysis as that has been my approach for a while now when looking at used rifles. Most of mine have not been in the "collector" arena ,but unique to my interests. Double rifles, most Hammer guns a precision custom 260 Rem, 45-70s, 4065, various others. My interest here is to get into Schuetzen at a reasonable start since time in my case is of the essence. I no longer want to wait around to get something built that I've never laid eyes on. Will upgrade a rifle if needed once I own it.

[uscra112]

Have it relined. If I were shopping for a Low Wall, (I'm not), I'd pay more for a relined one thn one with a bad bore. Because if I did buy one with a bad bore the first thing I'd do is liner it.

[uscra112]

If you're thinking of getting into the Schuetzen game, maybe consider a .30 caliber liner with a 12 inch twist. Lots more bullet options. Keep the .32 WCF chambering.

[MotelAlpha]

.30 caliber such as? My reason for asking is that I have not seen anyone mention the values of a .30 at 200 yards or less..

[marlinman93]

Marliman93
I concur with your analysis as that has been my approach for a while now when looking at used rifles. Most of mine have not been in the "collector" arena ,but unique to my interests. Double rifles, most Hammer guns a precision custom 260 Rem, 45-70s, 4065, various others. My interest here is to get into Schuetzen at a reasonable start since time in my case is of the essence. I no longer want to wait around to get something built that I've never laid eyes on. Will upgrade a rifle if needed once I own it.

If you plan to get into the schuetzen game, I'm not sure I'd choose this gun? It is certainly far from an offhand rifle, and converting it to an offhand schuetzen rifle will take more money, and still be just marginal for schuetzen work. Plus the Low Wall in .32-20 will not be an optimum cartridge for 200 meter schuetzen work. It can work, just not the best choice, and also limited chamber pressures in a 1885 Low Wall.
I'd be looking at a High Wall in something like .32-40 for schuetzen, or even .32-20, but capable of higher velocities than the Low Wall.

[MotelAlpha]

Well put valuable information...just starting to pay attention to the black powder-smokeless area and what can or not handle pressures...ad to that there is a fair amount of conflicting information no intentional, but rather the manufacturers were all over the map on cartridge sizes . Like you pointed out, that I do not want to do is wind up getting a custom rig, and not enjoying the sport.

[uscra112]

Let me put in a plug for a Stevens 44-1/2. CPA replicas are spendy, but decent originals can sometimes be found in the $1000 range. Strong enough for 40,000 psi smokeless, more than strong enough for any sort of Schuetzen loads. If Schuetzen doesn't suit you, put on another barrel chambered, say, .222R, and you've got a varmint rifle. Add a .30-40 barrel and you've got a deer rifle. It's a takedown design; you don't need special tools to swap barrels once they're fitted to the action.

[GARD72977]

I actually started with no intention of ever competing. I love it so much im going to take some days off and travel to a match.

Even if you are not into the sport you can enjoy shooting the guns.

[MotelAlpha]

After much more reading today, I am leaning towards going up a few notches in price so that I can get better use out of the rifle Standing/Benchrest...am only getting older at 76 ,my true time is rather short to get way into price, but I do want to be both productive in my shooting, and shoot something enjoyable as well. I have a 40-65 Rolling block, but shooting as many rounds per match will get old real soon I think. So it may have to go to make room for a better selection

[uscra112]

One of the ASSRA guys is shooting the lights out (off the bench) with a fast-twist .25-20 WCF.

Recoil negligible.

[marlinman93]

One of the ASSRA guys is shooting the lights out (off the bench) with a fast-twist .25-20 WCF.

Recoil negligible.

Yes, and JerryH is doing that with a CPA 44 1/2 also. It's strong enough to handle the fairly warm loads Jerry shoots, but not sure I'd push an older Low Wall to the velocity Jerry is shooting?

Motelalpha, I too am in my early 70's and have still not ever shot a schuetzen match. But the vast majority of my rifles are schuetzen rifles, and I enjoy shooting them in the traditional schuetzen style. Some breech seaters, some breech seating muzzleloaders, and some as fixed traditional loads.
It's a lot of fun even if you don't ever compete. I've picked up a number of old original Ballard schuetzen rifles in the $1700-$2700 range, and with very good bores. A number of them made by famous names like Pope, Schoyen, Peterson, Zettlers, etc. They can be found if you look a lot and are patient.

[MotelAlpha]

Exactly Marlinman93, I may not gewt there, but then the hunt is partly the fun anyway. The most dismal thing I am finding is the lack of places to shoot except private clubs with waiting lists, and not too well maintained, the other is the lack of firearms variety at the two shows that I have attended...Mostly new or black rifles. Very little in the guns I grew up with. But we will ever endeavor to persevere as Winston said.

[uscra112]

I gave up gun shows ten years ago. All the good stuff has gone to online auctions.

[GARD72977]

I gave up gun shows ten years ago. All the good stuff has gone to online auctions.

I believe thats true. I live in the south and our shows are small. I would think its hard to ger intrest in nicer single shots with a limited number of people to see them.

[marlinman93]

I gave up gun shows ten years ago. All the good stuff has gone to online auctions.

I agree, but disagree too. There are still a number of gun shows that have a large number of great guns available, but it depends on the show, and whether you want to travel to find what you want.
Shows like CGCA Denver show that has about 800 tables, and all great stuff. Or Tulsa Wannemaker's show that has about 3500 tables, and a lot of great stuff. The Baltimore show I've never been to, but heard is great. And the Ohio Gun collectors show is another I've never been to but friends tell me there's great stuff too. We also have a local monthly Oregon Arms Collectors show here where I've been a member for decades, and find a great gun occasionally. We're restarting our shows May 23rd, after well over a year of being shut down by the stupid plague.
I drive 1350 miles each way to go to Denver show each year, and stay the whole 4 days. Even with the cost of gas and motel rooms, it's still worth it as there's more great guns to buy than my budget can afford. But I always come home with 2-5 neat single shot rifles each year. That show has moved to Colorado Springs for this year, and from May to this September now. Looking forward to seeing it after missing last year for the first time.

[uscra112]

Maybe true. Before I retired there was never time to travel to any of those shows. After I retired the expense became the issue. *sigh* The last show I can remember being worth my time was the "antique & classic" show in Novi, MI. Easy since I then lived within 30 miles of Novi.

One thing I learned living in MI was that the best shows were located in/near cities that had significant auto plants. Toledo, Flint, Birch Run, Muncie, Novi, Lima OH, Fort Wayne IN, et.al. Attribute it to all those toolmakers whose hobby was guns.

[marlinman93]

When I was working I got no paid holidays, or days off. But shows like Denver and Reno (back then) were both well worth missing a few days work just because of the guns available. And the prices at the shows were also so much better than almost anything found online where everyone is over-bidding guns. So even with expenses I found many bargains. Plus I considered the trip a vacation, as I enjoyed seeing all the quality firearms, and accessories. Plus visiting with some great people I've come to know as friends.
Never been to a gun show near a automotive manufacturer, so no idea what they look like. Our local annual OAC show and later Old West annual shows brought sellers and buyers from all over the USA in the 1980's and 90's. I talked to sellers who came here and had huge price tags on the guns they brought to sell. They all told me they brought 6-15 extra empty cases to buy guns here and haul them home because our prices were so much cheaper than the Midwest and East prices.
Those big 500-1400 table shows all ended back in the late 1990's when Oregon tightened up laws on sales at gun shows. It went from those huge shows with lots of old single shots and leverguns, to maybe 100-200 table shows, and a lot of FFL dealers set up at the shows to sell. All the private sellers almost disappeared after the state's laws got restrictive.
Now our small monthly 50-60 table show is the best around, as it's well regulated and the membership and officers wont allow any non gun crap. And most guns there are older guns for the majority. Our annual 2 day show is 205 tables, and still gets sellers from all over the West attending because of the quality of firearms there.

[MotelAlpha]

Having just left Colorado 2+ years ago, I am afraid Im sunk. Went to my second show near Baltimore this morning, and honestly have seen many better shows put on at the local Legion hall.....Im looking for a nice Stevens, Ballard etc...but none there or even close. I don't like having the internet as my only source.

[Bent Ramrod]

I have to say that outside of Denver, Las Vegas, and perhaps a few more shows I’m not acquainted with, the antique trade is just about finished. Few shows are produced any more by collectors’ organizations that are interested in old guns. The overwhelming majority of the shows are now produced by promoters who want to sell tables, tickets and parking fees.

And I have to sympathize with the sellers. They know the market. Somebody starting out with a job and a family can get an affordable AR type gun for $800; maybe as low as $400, if they assemble the parts themselves. I doubt I could get one of my wood-and-steel classics rebarreled for $400. A clunker for rebarreling, if found, would be twice that much, and most people just want to go shooting, not do a restoration project. And I have to say, those plastic and aluminum bullet-spitters are indeed technological marvels. Just not my thing, is all.

Santa Barbara used to have a lot of great old stuff, and Novi was supported by a lot of collectors as well. Any other show is pretty much like panning for gold—you go for the enjoyment and experience, and once in a while you find something interesting. The best promoter gun shows for somebody who is looking for something old and cool are places like Tulsa, which is so huge that the odds of finding something interesting are reasonable. But going to any gun show with the thought of finding something specific not currently made is pure fantasy. Even the auction sites might not have exactly what you want at any given time.

It’s distressing how many shows seem to move around. IME this is never good. The relocated shows are shadows of their former selves, and frequently die after a couple runs. Pomona, Sacramento, Lancaster, San Diego, and the Big Reno Show (not so big and now in Sparks) are either in transplant shock or defunct. I hope the Colorado Springs Show is the exception to the rule.

To get back to the OP’s topic, if you really want to get into formal Schuetzen shooting, a WTB ad on the ASSRA Forum might get you something better suited than a sporting Low Wall with a light barrel. It might even have a new barrel and sights on it already, and any worry about “collectibility” would be moot.

[samari46]

Have a mostly complete low wall with barrel and wood in 25-20 single shot. Unfortunately the bore is toast and been seriously thinking of getting a liner installed in 32-20. Have to order some parts from Montana Vintage Arms. Have brass, bullets, bullet mold and dies. Either that or get one of my 22rf martini's lined. Already have a centerfire trigger group so that problem is solved. Frank

[John Taylor]

I gave up gun shows ten years ago. All the good stuff has gone to online auctions.

I use to go to gun show as often as I could. Moved back to Idaho and visited a gun show and could not believe the prices that they are asking. Saw an 1897 Marlin that they were asking $3,500 for. Last year I picked up one for $200 in trade that need a little help. On another table there was another 1897 , asking $3,200. If I could get those type of prices I could sell of what I have and be debt free.

[uscra112]

Fishing for the rich Californians and Seattilites. By now you've noticed they're everywhere.

[sharps4590]

Locally, gun shows are a social event, for me. There's a local, semi-annual auction that usually has a few interesting pieces. Beyond the local stuff I won't travel to shows anymore. I have been to Tulsa a couple times and were I interested in something particular I "might" make the drive as it's only 5-6 hours.

Jim Goergen has a pile of Schuetzen rifles on Guns International and, there's several others who list them. Most are 8.15 X 46R....which isn't a bad thing.

[marlinman93]

When you're talking factory schuetzen rifles it doesn't matter what the brand is for the most part; they're all big bucks. And any built into schuetzen rifles by well known names in the late 1800's and early 1900's will get even greater price tags.
If I was going to start out today, and wanted to keep cost down I'd personally consider building up a gun. A solid receiver can range in price from as low as a couple hundred dollars, to a little over $1,000. But if you start this way you'll end up with exactly what you wanted, and not something close, or not quite good enough.
I've built up some over the years, but always had to have a good gunsmith barrel and chamber them. But that cost is not bad at around $150-$175 these days. So if you can find an action and barrel cheap enough you can send them to a gunsmith and have a barreled action reasonable enough to start with. Then get semi inletted stock sets, and fit them. Then if you want to you can have it color cased and blued to finish it off right.
My last few builds have all ended up around $1,000 going this route, and I personally think any of them could sell for that or more if I wanted to part with them. And buying one equal to them already built would cost almost double what I have in them.

I've told a lot of guys to meet me in Denver if they want to buy a nice single shot already completed. Of those who accepted and made the drive or flight, not one has been disappointed attending, and most found what they wanted. The last friend who met me there went home with a pretty decent 1885 High Wall in .45-70 for $1,000. It had been a .38-55 originally, and was rebored and rifled in .45-70, but still a great buy at the price, with a brand new bore.

[MotelAlpha]

I am going to make one more attempt here in the East, it is the York Penn show I think at the end of June. One of the vendors said that because of its location attracts sellers/vendors from NY, Del, N J and often Ohio, and Kentucky. I have sent an email to Gail at CPa to assess what their backlog is currently should nothing show up. I also just posted a "testing the water" for trade or sale on this web site.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?425267-WTT-WTS-Pedersoli-Creedmore&p=5189453#post5189453

[marlinman93]

I am going to make one more attempt here in the East, it is the York Penn show I think at the end of June. One of the vendors said that because of its location attracts sellers/vendors from NY, Del, N J and often Ohio, and Kentucky. I have sent an email to Gail at CPa to assess what their backlog is currently should nothing show up. I also just posted a "testing the water" for trade or sale on this web site.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?425267-WTT-WTS-Pedersoli-Creedmore&p=5189453#post5189453

Since he's in Doylestown, Pa., maybe Gary Quinlan will be there? Gary has always got a good supply of fine single shots, and worth going to just see what he has for sale, and talk with him about what's at his shop too.

[samari46]

And don't forget about TJ's barrel liners. Has a rather impressive list. Original twist for the 32-20 was 1x20. With one of TJ's liners you can go all the way to 1x10 twist in 30 caliber. I mentioned gettng one of my BSA 22rf's done up in a proper 32-20 and have a complete centerfire lockwork setup so can swap out the rimfire for the centerfire. Frank

[MotelAlpha]

So, I bought a 1885 Hi Wall in 32-40....now trying to assemble all that goes with it in this drought of molds/bullets/brass/etc..This is the first time in the revolutions taken place over the last 20 years that I have plenty of powder, and can't get the metalic items.....You guys are terrific, and yes I'll keep up my pursuit....I want to learn "breech seating" seems to be the most accurate method among the SS shooters

[marlinman93]

So, I bought a 1885 Hi Wall in 32-40....now trying to assemble all that goes with it in this drought of molds/bullets/brass/etc..This is the first time in the revolutions taken place over the last 20 years that I have plenty of powder, and can't get the metalic items.....You guys are terrific, and yes I'll keep up my pursuit....I want to learn "breech seating" seems to be the most accurate method among the SS shooters

In a pinch you can make .32-40 from .32 Win. Spl. or even .30-30, but both might be a little short. But at least you can get going with either. And both run into .32-40 dies will easily form in one stroke through the dies.
There was a fella on the ASSRA forum just offering .32-40 new Win. brass, so might check there to see if he has any left? Not exactly cheap at $2 a case, but if you don't have any maybe it's worth it?

https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1620008986

[MotelAlpha]

Thanks for the tip, I have fire formed brass before with success, but I'd rather not. I saw his post, but also bought some from Grafs and Sons which should be here soon.

[MotelAlpha]

So, I bought a 1885 Hi Wall in 32-40....now trying to assemble all that goes with it in this drought of molds/bullets/brass/etc..This is the first time in the revolutions taken place over the last 20 years that I have plenty of powder, and can't get the metalic items.....You guys are terrific, and yes I'll keep up my pursuit....I want to learn "breech seating" seems to be the most accurate method among the SS shooters I meant to tell you that this rifle and other items have been purchased via live on-line auctions..I've notice the prices are in some case 40+ percent lower. My favorite Rifle is coming up in a few days a Remington Hepburn in 38-55

[marlinman93]

I meant to tell you that this rifle and other items have been purchased via live on-line auctions..I've notice the prices are in some case 40+ percent lower. My favorite Rifle is coming up in a few days a Remington Hepburn in 38-55

Hope you win it! I too am a big fan of the Rem. Hepburn rifles. Have them in .45-70, .40-70SS, and .32-40 B&M, which is the common .32-40 Ballard and Marlin. I like all three, but I shoot the .45-70 and the .32-40 the most.

[uscra112]

Watch out for the buyer's premiums in those live-on-line auctions!

[MotelAlpha]

On my win of the Winchester, they only charged me $35 dollars which I was ok with, and it was a phone bid. So I was please with this as it was my first time biding on anything on line.

[Pioneer2]

What about a re-bore to .357 magnum?

[marlinman93]

What about a re-bore to .357 magnum?

Bad idea for a Low Wall, or a #2 Ballard. The Low Wall can be OK with a .38 Special chambering if they're not loaded to +P levels. But not a good choice to do it in .357 Magnum.

[colt45sa]

What about a re-bore to .357 magnum?
Lo-Wall will be destroyed with pressure over 20,000 psi. .357 pressure is 37,000 psi~!
I went with the .38 Special which has a pressure of 17,000 psi in my Lo-Wall which was built in 1892. I bought the rifle with a bad crack at the wrist and a very, very rough .25RF bore, and included an original Lyman tang peep sight. Stock nicely repaired and refinished, converted to CF, bore relined to .38 Special. Collector value~~? Maybe not~! Fun value, in IMHO immeasurable~! For sale~?? Not on your life~!