38 s&w experiment

[3rdTennCoC]

Hello all,
Feeling a bit experimental lately (scary when referring to reloading I know) Ive been wanting to work up a relatively heavy hitting load for my S&W pre-victory revolver and figured Id see what you all think.

I started with 158g swc on top of 2.5g of hp-38 (only pistol powder I have aside from 2400) and thats about what I see as the max for this cartride, what I assume are some relatively light loads for all the top breaks out there, but I figured a solid frame smith should be able to handle at least a bit more

Ive even thought of what I think is a interesting load 3.2g to 3.3g
of hp38 under a 80g 36cal roundball (again feeling experimental maybe even crazy, idk)

My reason partially for this is because its a gun Id like to carry on my properties and would like something a bit hotter coming out of it if it were ever needed. Now I know many will say I should carry a 38spl or something if I want more power, but this is a gun I want to have in a rotation of carry guns, I would like a self defense load for all my guns I carry, including this one. Any thoughts would be appriciated

[JoeJames]

A couple of years ago a buddy asked if I reloaded 38 S&W. I did not at the time, but got curious and looked into it. Best I could tell and the information was spotty at best on groove diameters for the 38 S&W but it looked as though .360" was more or less kind of the norm. I jumped off into it, and got a set of 38 S&W dies and the feller I bought the dies from (on here as a matter of fact) threw in 100 or so Starline brass as a lagniappe. He sold his; so I never got to try them out, but as I recall I loaded them with HBWC's thinking they'd obturate when fired. I also loaded a few with pulled 38 Special Round nose and a few with 38 Special semi-wad cutters mostly for experimentation. Generally and also from what I'd read a regular .358 semi-wad cutter would not quite engage the rifling. But that is conjecture; as there may be some Smiths that were actually bored to .358". Need to slug the bore and see what it comes to.
282810

[JoeJames]

Hi Joe,

You're absolutely correct about the diameter. I use 0.361" myself. But the OP didn't ask about bullet choice, he asked about, essentially, +P loads for the 38 S&W. I see no need, and would rather use the old British standard 200 gr bullets about a tad over 600 fps myself.

Bullets for the 38 Special can be swaged to 0.361" if one has the swaging die. If only a few are needed, they can be bumped up by squeezing in a vice. Once one gets the technique down, it goes pretty quickly and makes acceptable bullets for casual use.+ P loads for the 38S&W worries me a bit. I agree on the British 200 grain bullets running around 600 fps. But for plinking, I have read that .358" hollow base fairly soft wad cutters do pretty well. In a way kind of like the old heeled Colt bullets. Has that been your experience?

BTW that buddy that asked if I reloaded 38S&W did show me his revolver before he sold it. It was a British lend lease in 38 S&W, but had been bored out for 38 Special. In my opinion it would still be ok for 38S&W but the chamber mouths would be questionable as far as accuracy.

[3rdTennCoC]

That's what I've got here, a lend lease, and yes, didnt think about it at the time, I am essentialy looking at +p loads. I know its an old cartridge but surely it can be driven up a bit. I hear many people say that a while back sammi dumbed down pressures on everything for safety reasons in some particular cartridges, they say the old 38spl was harder hitting than the stuff nowadays, am I misinformed on that?

[JoeJames]

That does worry me. First I expect that the cylinder walls are a bit thinner than those bored for the 38 Special. The diameter of the 38 Special case is thinner than the 38 S&W after all, and the normal 38 Special boolit is around 160 grains (at least 38 Special ammo in WW2 was); so you're pushing a heavier, at 200 grains, boolit. Thin cylinder walls, in conjunction with a heavier boolit, makes for higher pressure starting out. Just my opinion. That is why my powder charge was a little bit low for a 38 Special Wad cutter.

BTW your 3rdTenn moniker - just wondering, my great grandfather started out with the 2nd Tennessee Cavalry Regt. in the War of Northern Aggression. It was disbanded and he transferred to the 11th Alabama Cavalry if I remember right. Is your connection like that?

[3rdTennCoC]

I have an abundance of 158g sec and 125g lrn boolits I am looking to use, perhaps that can assist in keeping pressure down?

3rd Tennessee is my reenacting group. Company C of Forrests old. Also have a leg in the first rockbridge artillery in the NSSA, our NSSA team leader has lineage to a family house on the field of the battle of new market I've been told

[JoeJames]

I got curious and went to my main book on earlier cartridges: Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers published around 1937 or so. For each cartridge he lists the factory loads often including the load with Bullseye. For the 38S&W made by S&W he shows a .359" 146 grain (lead round nose I assume) loaded with 2.3 grains of Bullseye (I reckon that is how I came up with my wad cutter load) for a velocity of 730 fps. Approximately the same load for the 38 Colt New Police with a .359" 150 grain bullet and 2.1 grains of Bullseye shows a velocity of 710 fps. The 200 grain bullet load for the 38 S&W Super Police does not show grains of powder, nor the velocity. As Tatume indicated it was probably around 600 fps. Probably could see it heading down range if the sun was just right.

BTW my great-grandfather allegedly scouted for General Forrest a few times. That's what he claimed anyway.

[Outpost75]

The pre-WW2 .38 Super Police 200-grain loads were charged with 2.5 grains of Hercules Infallible in .38 S&W and 4 grains in .38 Special. Closest current powder to Infallible would be Herco.

[3rdTennCoC]

So I know one shouldn't go over published data, but am I dreaming if I do say 3.2g hp38 under a 125g LRN crimped Below or Just above the lube groove? Give it max airspace possible?

[JoeJames]

So I know one shouldn't go over published data, but am I dreaming if I do say 3.2g hp38 under a 125g LRN crimped Below or Just above the lube groove? Give it max airspace possible?

From my notes 3.2 grains of HP-38/Win 231 in a 38 Special load with a 148 grain wad cutter would be fairly hot at around 800 fps. In a 38S&W it would really be way up there. I would not do it. I would back it off considerably. I hope some other folks will chime in on that question. BTW I have been reloading since about 1981, and I still have both eyeballs and a full compliment of fingers.

[3rdTennCoC]

Joe, I am confused by that, Hodgdons own data including on the bottle of hp38 itself shows 38special max of 3.7g with a 158g lswc at 834fps in a 7.7inch barrel
the hodgdon reloading site shows a starting load of 3.1g with a 158g lswc at 782fps

It shows with a 148g bullet at min 3.5g at 869fps and max of 4.0g at 956fps

Theres are Not +p loads to hodgdon, 38spl+p is a different cartridge option on the site

+p hodgdon says 146g jhp with 4.9g at 975fps, 158g xtp bullet with 4.6g at 807fps

I already use 3.1 3.2g in my 38 specials and there pretty light, my puff charge for 38 special is 2.8

[3rdTennCoC]

Now my thought is 38sw with a starting 38spl charge with the bullet crimped way at the bottom leaves comparable air space to the same charge in a 38spl case with a 158g lswc crimped in the normal spot (more than halfway up the bullet, 2 lube grooves plus gas check step inside the case) My thought is this gun should be capable of this, I know it is hot for 38sw, but many of these guns were reamed out for 38spl and are used today like that, inform me if any of you have heard of it but I haven't heard of any of those reamed guns failing with 38spl, just spotty accuracy.

With that all said plus the data I showed, does anyone else at least understand my logic or am I still dreaming? Curiosity has me.
Tatume, this is all speculative right now and I wouldnt do anything if I truly dont think the gun can handle it, Im merely seeing others thoughts

[Hanzy4200]

I'm interested to see what you find. Please be careful. I could never get any standard .38 weights to shoot well in my Victory. Another member here, Outpost75, shared a few 190 gr pills from a Accurate mold. Big thanks! They shot amazingly well. Emailed Tom and ordered my own mold. It's a FN design that drops at a hair over, and sized to .360. One of my most accurate and enjoyable revolver loads. Can't recall what data I'm using, but they come out at about 650 fps.

[3rdTennCoC]

It seems possible for these particular revolvers, definetly not in top breaks though

[Bushwacker Berg]

The Speer manual number 8 does show some spicy loads, pre saami stuff. Speer 125 gr sp at 950 to 1040 fish. Cast loads for a 158 gr are pretty sedate at top end 700 fps. Top bullseye load is 3 gr unique, 2.4 gr bullseye, 2.7 guns of red dot for 740 fps. If you are wanting to soup up with at least some loads that are published and tested run the Speer hotcor 125 gr hp with the published data. Can also look up saami spec loads in Speer 12, they also have loads for the 110 gr jhp. Better safe than sorry.

[3rdTennCoC]

These are 38sw loads? Not 38 special? All I'm using is cast

[JoeJames]

These are 38sw loads? Not 38 special? All I'm using is castBushwhacker's first load appears to be for a J-word boolit. The rest appear to be for cast. And with those I'd tread lightly. All of us keep returning to the risk involved when you get the pressure on up there. Please keep it within the ditches, ok?

[murf205]

#53rdTennCoc, have you slugged the barrel and cylinder throats? If you are as fond of the gun as you seem to be, a mold that drops boolits at .361 (which you can size for 38 and 357's also), would be a good investment. I load mine as they come from the mold. I have a S&W model 33 that wouldn't hit a bull in the behind with factory ammo(.358 boolits), and leaded like crazy until I loaded my Accurate Molds 158 gr. and 3.5 grs of Accurate #5 powder. I believe you would be better served with an accurate 158 gr load at 700fps than one with marginally higher velocities and less accuracy from an ill fitting boolit. You will be a lot happier with this fine old gun when you get boolits in the right size range.282855 25 yd target with the proper fitting boolit. I have read articles by some supposedly knowledgeable gun writers that state that .358 diameter boolits will obturate and fill the bore for a good gas seal and acceptable accuracy. From my experiences, I would not count on that.

[3rdTennCoC]

I have been looking for a decent .361 mold lately as well as debating a .358 hb mold too. With these initial hot loads I figured I'd use some of the light 125 LRN boolits I have on hand, have a surplus of them, they are .359

[Bushwacker Berg]

All the info was for 38 s&w from Speer manuals 8 and 12. Yes, there are some jword loads too. All published loads as I too would be concerned with the experimental loads talked about

[murf205]

I have been looking for a decent .361 mold lately as well as debating a .358 hb mold too. With these initial hot loads I figured I'd use some of the light 125 LRN boolits I have on hand, have a surplus of them, they are .359

Accurate Molds can make a mold that drops .361. Look in his catalogue, when you select a style you like, you can configure a mold and select the dia. Good luck finding a .361 mold. BTW, Ebay is probably the worst to find a boolit mold.

[PositiveCaster]

All the info was for 38 s&w from Speer manuals 8 and 12. Yes, there are some jword loads too. All published loads as I too would be concerned with the experimental loads talked about

Yes, “published“ loads, but perhaps not pressure-tested. Early Speer data was sometimes flat dangerous! My favorites included some .45 Auto Rim loads giving a 200-grain jacketed bullet up to 1345 fps! Just because it’s “published” doesn’t mean it’s safe.

[Outpost75]

Larry Gibson pressure tested some .38 S&W loads for me for use in the Lend - Lease S&W Victory models. He also has developed safe loads for the various top-breaks. If you specify which revolver you want to load for we can help. Short answer don't exceed 2 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup with 145-155 grain bullets in the top breaks or 2.5 grains with 175-195 grain in the S&W Victory if you want the gun to last.

[Bushwacker Berg]

PC, I fully understand where you are coming from, just trying to give some other considerations other than experiments that have a higher likelihood of making things change their current state of togetherness. Sorry if I have caused consternation.

[JoeJames]

PC, I fully understand where you are coming from, just trying to give some other considerations other than experiments that have a higher likelihood of making things change their current state of togetherness. Sorry if I have caused consternation.A bit off the thread, but your phrase :” experiments that have a higher likelihood of making things change their current state of togetherness”, was hilarious. Thank you.

[murf205]

Larry Gibson pressure tested some .38 S&W loads for me for use in the Lend - Lease S&W Victory models. He also has developed safe loads for the various top-breaks. If you specify which revolver you want to load for we can help. Short answer don't exceed 2 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup with 145-155 grain bullets in the top breaks or 2.5 grains with 175-195 grain in the S&W Victory if you want the gun to last.

Best advice you have been given yet. Those old Hand Ejector Smith & Wessons don't come around every day and the only thing that gets stronger with age is wine and cheese. If you shoot the gun loose with +P loads, parts are not easy to find for old long action K frame guns.

[3rdTennCoC]

Back again, sorry it took so long
Upon further research I would not say I am looking to make +p loads, I am looking mostly to replicate some max loads from yesterday year, not just the dumber down loads of today to protect old top breaks, I am doing the same with 32swl to good results

Anyway, tried the loads I made, 3.2g hp38 under a 125g lrn.
All fingers attached, recoil was not excessive, even for a light 125g bullet, no signs of over pressure, even tried some in my already bulged once fired cut down 38 special brass, those 38spl pieces did not split, not one, and the gun loved them. Best load for accuracy I've got out of this revolver yet, only shot a bit low at 10 yards, likely due to the light bullet at higher velocity for the sights. Having some issues with pictures but will try to post some soon

I will continue making loads for this revolver from some of the older manuals, but still not go to the old manuals max loads, have some data for bullseye and unique I want to try, loaded up some with a 158g bullet over 3.5g of unique, a middle ground load from this manual.

[Randy Bohannon]

BTW that buddy that asked if I reloaded 38S&W did show me his revolver before he sold it. It was a British lend lease in 38 S&W, but had been bored out for 38 Special. In my opinion it would still be ok for 38S&W but the chamber mouths would be questionable as far as accuracy.

How do you make a smaller hole in to a bigger hole ?

[Alferd Packer]

NOE moulds may have some .361 size to sell. just Google them.

[3rdTennCoC]

I think noe was who I got my .316 oversize 30cal mold from, may look at them for a .361, also I now need a .266 6.5

[murf205]

My Accurate Mold283381 drops these at .361 from wheel weight +% tin. It is spot on at 158 grs. All you have to do when you order a mold is to fill in the diameter you want.