Need a 223 cast load

[Chunky Monkey]

Little brown truck should have my RCBS 2-Cavity Boolit Mold 22-055-SP 22 Caliber (225 Diameter) 55 Grain Semi-Point Gas mold here tomorrow. I also got some Hornady GC's for them. Gonna cast from WW and water cool then size to 224. Gonna be shot primarily for plinkin and the occasional coyote.

These will be shot from my Colt AR 2/ 20" HBAR that has 1/9 twist. I have a good bit of Lake City 5.56 brass and lots of Wolf small rifle magnum primers.

Just need a powder. I was looking at the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and on pg 129 it has loads for a 54 gr cast boolit. I notice that the powders listed are primarily pistol/fast burning) powders, i.e., Unique, 748, Red and Green dot, IMR 7625-4759. The only one on that list that I have on hand is Unique. I will be loading these on my Lee Classic Cast Turret so I am kinda leaning towards getting 4 or 8lbs of 748 as I have heard good things about it and it would meter well. If it doesn't work out I could always use it for 45 acp.

I do have a few lbs of H335 and Ramshot Tac for loading Hornady 55 gr full metal jackets.

You gents have any thoughts on this that you would like to share with the Monkey?

I tried to search for some loads but really only found this thread (http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1283&highlight=223+load)started by Bullshp Jr.

[felix]

748 is a high performance powder. Not for cast and most especially not for the acp with any projectile. Fine for condoms in the 223. For 223 boolits, pick N110, N120, 2400, RL7, or any 4227. You will find a load fairly quickly with these, and if you cannot, there is a problem somewhere not with the powder speed. Any culprit would be boolit diameter and/or primer choice. ... felix

[Chunky Monkey]

748 is a high performance powder. Not for cast and most especially not for the acp with any projectile. Fine for condoms in the 223. For 223 boolits, pick N110, N120, 2400, RL7, or any 4227. You will find a load fairly quickly with these, and if you cannot, there is a problem somewhere not with the powder speed. Any culprit would be boolit diameter and/or primer choice. ... felix


Thanks for the correction Felix, I was thinkin 231. So basically the loads in the Cast Bullet Handbook shouldn't be used?

[ddeaton]

I have a bunch of H335 also and would like to use this for 223 and 308. I am interested in this thread also

[felix]

H335 is a faster version of 748, and that's all. Because it is faster, and having the same approximate formulation, it is also easier to ignite. But still should not be used in low pressure loads because of its heritage (formulation). Use that for your 308 condom loads as well as 748. Go with the powders I suggested for best results with boolits out of the shoot (chute). ... felix

[Chunky Monkey]

Felix where would be a good place to look up a starting load?

On the Vihtavuori website they do have loads for 223 using N120, obviously none are for lead boolits. I know there's no set formula but generally how much should a person back off of to convert a load for FMJ to lead? For example, a charge of 18.7 gr of N120 over a small rifle primer under a 55 gr FMJ? 10% back off for any change in component. So should someone back off 15% or more. Having trouble finding anything for N110, RL7, 2400, or any 4227.

Next problem will be finding a local shop that has 1lb of which ever powder I decide on. Luckily I have a 4 or 5 good ones around here.

[Larry Gibson]

I have a bunch of H335 also and would like to use this for 223 and 308. I am interested in this thread also

For M193 duplication in .223 try 26 gr under a 52-55 gr bullet. (Note: many soft skinned varmint bullets [SX/Blitx type] do not fair well in the 7-9" twists). For an M80 duplication load try 42.5 gr under 145-155 gr bullets.

Cases are milsurp and primers are WSR/WLR or magnum type. Bullets are crimped (those with canelures) with Lee factory Crimp dies.

As always; work up to those loads in your rifle.

As to cast bullets; H335 and 748 are not good powders for this use. The faster powders in Lyman's Handbook are ok but I've found H4895 (17-19 gr with 55-60 gr cast bullets) to work very well.

Larry Gibson

[garandsrus]

Monkey,

Don't forget to flair the case mouths before seating the boolits...

John

[JeffinNZ]

For reference I shoot a Lyman 225462 (61gr) in my Rem 700 .223 over 6.0gr Green Dot for 1700fps and 23gr W748 for 2600fps. GDot load is air cooled w/w; W748 load is oven heat treated w/w. I size to .2255-.226. Accuracy for the GDot load is 1/2 - 3/4 inch at 50m. W748 load produces 1.5-2.0 MOA at 100m.

[Chunky Monkey]

Monkey,

Don't forget to flair the case mouths before seating the boolits...

John

Thanks John, I did think of that and ordered a Lee universal case expanding die.

Just need to figure out a powder and load to start up. :???:

[medicstimpy]

I think you will find that most of the .223 loads out there in manuals are for bolt action guns. I tried a couple of them and they would not cycle the action on an AR. So I built my own load.

I can't speak for your RCBS boolit but for the Lyman 225646 I use 21gr of H4895, Hornady GC's (until my Freechex comes) and Lars's Carnuba Red lubed in both the rear bands and the bands in the nose.

Since there is so much lube on these boolits, there is no leading at all and have no lead deposits in the gas system. Since your RCBS is a regular design with the lube bands, I would definately check your barrel after shooting and closely inspect your gas system when you get it home to see. If there is nothing, then it should be safe to shoot these out of your AR.

[Lead melter]

As to cast bullets; H335 and 748 are not good powders for this use. The faster powders in Lyman's Handbook are ok but I've found H4895 (17-19 gr with 55-60 gr cast bullets) to work very well.

Larry Gibson

I'll second that statement, especially for reduced loads. 7.62X54R and 30-30 Winchesters that I have played with using this powder had some REALLY scary hangfires and what might be termed "detonations" while at the lower powder charges while using cast. Once the load density gets up to 80% or so things start to act right. Be very careful with this sort of thing. I learned my lesson quickly.:(

[Calamity Jake]

In my RRA LAR15 24in 1 in 12 I use Acccurate arms 2015 at 17.5 grains with the same boolet you are going to use cast in a mix of 50/50 WW/Lino and oven heat treated.
The 17.5 grains cycles the action very well and shoot about 1.5 to 1.75 inches @ 100
The 4895 load above is also a good one, my AR seems to like 2015 a little better.
And as has been said before, forget the 335 and 748 for cast.

[Chunky Monkey]

Thanks guys!! I'm starting to get an idea of what I need to pick up.

Keep the info coming as I will wait to get my powder till I can get a few boolits cast and sized!

Also we got a new toaster oven for Xmas so I get the old one for the heat treating boolits. I'll have to do some searches as I have seen info on that before.

[JIMinPHX]

You might find some related info here -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26232

Or here -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=3345

[Chunky Monkey]

In my RRA LAR15 24in 1 in 12 I use Acccurate arms 2015 at 17.5 grains with the same boolet you are going to use cast in a mix of 50/50 WW/Lino and oven heat treated.
The 17.5 grains cycles the action very well and shoot about 1.5 to 1.75 inches @ 100
The 4895 load above is also a good one, my AR seems to like 2015 a little better.
And as has been said before, forget the 335 and 748 for cast.

What primers and lube you using? I have Lars Carnuba Red on hand and plan to use that.

[felix]

You who are newbees, 335 and 748 will easily give factory loads in the 30-30 thru 35 remington with boolits, and in fact are preferred powders. ... felix

[leadhead 500]

I shot the Lyman 225415 cast from #2 alloy for years and found 2 great loads for it,
21 grains of IMR 4895
Win. SR primer
2.060" OAL

11 grains of 2400
Win.SR primer
2.060"

The 2400 load was the best load that I have seen for a cast boolit from a 223.

[Chunky Monkey]

I cast up about a 100 or so last night and another 100 or so tonight. Really like that RCBS mold.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Metzy84/Casting/102_1671.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Metzy84/Casting/102_1668.jpg

Was going down to the garden today to drop off the Xmas tree. So I sized, checked, and lubed 9 this morning. Loaded them 3 each over 18, 18.5, and 19 grains of H4895 with Wolf SRM primers. 19 grains wasn't too bad I'll try that load again. Wanted to see if they would fire, feed, extract. They all did but were a little weak. I set a beer can at about 25 yards and there was 4 or 5 holes in it when I was done.

Not worried about accuracy right now. I will put together a few more later and see if I get any leading.

Thanks to all for your help so far!! :)

[medicstimpy]

I'd keep using your Lars's Red Carnuba due to the velocities involved. Since you have to load them high to get the AR to cycle, the boolits will be up there in velocity.

I've used NRA lube and Lyman Orange in bolts and levers and handguns in various calibers but never in the AR. Since trying the Red Carnuba, I'm sold on it now and only use that for all my calibers.

Glad to hear your test witl 19gr worked well for you. Now all you have to do is put up a paper target and fine tune your load for accuracy.

[bushka]

i would like to do this,but...
Is there a way to get those gascheks on there without having the extra press?
I could tumble lube alox and shoot as cast....

[medicstimpy]

i would like to do this,but...
Is there a way to get those gascheks on there without having the extra press?
I could tumble lube alox and shoot as cast....

GC's need to be crimped on. If you don't have a lubersizer, you can still crimp your GC's with the Lee Sizer. It mounts to a regular press and crimps the GC's and sizes your boolits as it gets pushed through the die. It's cheaper than a lubersizer. That will allow you to use LLA for a lube.

[bushka]

thanks,I`ll look into that...:drinks:

[NHlever]

From what I have read, 2400 seems to be a very good powder for the .222, and I expect it would be for the .223 also. I would use 700x, or Red Dot for very light loads, Unique for loads to 1800 fps, or so, and 2400 for anything above that. The .223 loads in the new Lyman book top out on the light side, but the .222 loads run faster, and I would think they would be perfectly safe in the somewhat larger case.....

[Tracy]

I load the #225415 (55 gr.) over a 1cc dipper (~16 grains) WC820. I cast them of straight ww, no heat treatment. Size to .225, lube with homebrew, and seat a Gator check. I shoot them from a 16" AR, 1:9 with a chromed bore. No discernable leading, shoot to POA, and they cycle the action, albeit gently: they deposit the empties in a pile over my right shoulder instead of bouncing them off the case deflector and sending them forward, as full-power loads do.

2400 should work well, too. Also the 4198s and RL7. As much as I love fast powders like Red Dot and Bullseye for cast boolits, the AR needs the residual gas that slower powders produce. With powders much faster than 2400, by the time the boolit passes the gas port, there won't be enough gas volume left to cycle the bolt.

It would be interesting, though, to build a cast-boolit specific AR using a 1:12 twist barrel and tapping the gas at the pistol position.

[johnly]

I have a 1/7, 1/8. 1/9. and 1/12 ARs and three different 22 molds. I was loading cast bullets in my Hornets, Bees, and my 219 Zipper, but this might be a fun project to undertake. Just finished casting a batch of 22 Bators and 225462 out of linotype. Gawd that alloy casts nice bullets. I'll load un some 223 ammo for my 1/12 and see what I can do. I've spotted the old AR 1/12 "noodle" barrels on auction forums lately and that's the barrel I'd be looking for to shoot cast in ARs.

John

[Larry Gibson]

chunky monkey

results will be better if you redo the 4895 loads starting at 16 gr with a 1/2 gr dacron fillerover the powder. Start at 16 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments untill you get reliable functioning.

Larry Gibson

[Chunky Monkey]

chunky monkey

results will be better if you redo the 4895 loads starting at 16 gr with a 1/2 gr dacron fillerover the powder. Start at 16 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments untill you get reliable functioning.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry but what is dacron filler and where would one get it. :???:

I took several mags out to a shoot last weekend and had a problem with some feeding. I think my OAL is a little short. It lengthend a few to see if they feed more reliably.

[Larry Gibson]

Chunky Monkey

Thanks Larry but what is dacron filler and where would one get it. :???:

The below is from another post some time back. It should explain where and how to use the dacron. For the .223 use a 1/2 gr chunk and a short piece of coat hanger to push it into the case. Any questions don't hesitate to ask.

Larry Gibson

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad either with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find a fast burning powder that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want.
For use in rifle cases with slow “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc.) up through the slow burning powders that give around 80% or less loading density I use a dacron fillet between the powder and base of the bullet. The “Dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting” . It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.
The Dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullets. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr. A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks the weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball" it based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. Some chunks go all the way and some are up into the neck. It doesn’t matter. I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and a pencil works well for .45 cals.

[leadburner]

I use a load of 16 grns. H-4198 for a 55 grn Lee Bator mold boolit.This load gives 1.5 ins.@ 100 yds. in a HB Handi-Rifle @ 2350 FPS.This load will cycle your AR.I also cast a Lyman 225646 that comes out for me at 64 grns. that shoots better in my Saiga .223 in front of 15 grns. H-4198. I like this powder for cast,especially in.223, as it fills the case pretty well and gives good velocity at fairly low pressures.My boolits are cast from ww with 1% tin added,lubed well with alox,and set as close to the lands in the barrel as possible.I've had the Bator boolit up to 2850 FPS. with no leading.You just need to keep your pressures under 30,000 PSI with that alloy and gas checks,Good shooting!!!!!

[Chunky Monkey]

Chunky Monkey

Thanks Larry but what is dacron filler and where would one get it. :???:

The below is from another post some time back. It should explain where and how to use the dacron. For the .223 use a 1/2 gr chunk and a short piece of coat hanger to push it into the case. Any questions don't hesitate to ask.

Larry Gibson

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad either with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find a fast burning powder that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want.
For use in rifle cases with slow “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc.) up through the slow burning powders that give around 80% or less loading density I use a dacron fillet between the powder and base of the bullet. The “Dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting” . It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.
The Dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullets. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr. A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks the weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball" it based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. Some chunks go all the way and some are up into the neck. It doesn’t matter. I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and a pencil works well for .45 cals.

Thanks Larry. I'll get some and give it a try!!

[donald duck]

One of the guys at the range was shooting a Contender with 10 inch .223 barrel and he was pleased with 12 grains of 4198. Haven't tried it but you might check it out. Good Luck!!

[fcvan]

Donald, which range? Frank

[BeeMan]

This thread is almost 4 years old, but I'll weigh in since it is back in play. The RCBS 55 in air cooled wheel weights, sized/checked at .225 with FWFL, pushed by Blue dot to 22 WMR velocity, is sub MOA at 50 yards in a 223 bolt gun. Can't help on a load that will cycle an AR though.

[Moonie]

I use 16gr H4895 with 55 or 62 gr boolits, cycles just fine in my sons 5.56 midlength upper.