Schuetzen Question

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen:

I have a question about loading for the 8.15X46R Schuetzen rifle. First, I know from the moderate bit of reading done on this cartridge that the 8.15X46R (marked as 7.7 on the underneath side of the barrel) was far from standardized. My rifle was made in the late 1920s and the barrel slugs at 0.305" bore and 0.316" grooves. From what I have read, sometimes the bore on rifles so chambered can go up to 0.323". My chamber cast reveals that the throat is large and funnel-shaped with plenty of room to accommodate a 0.323" boolit. The mouth of a fire-formed case measures at 0.323".

I know that some shooters of these great old rifles breech seat the bullet and then place a charged case with card wad behind it. Others use a stop-ring bullet that finger presses into the mouth of a charge cartridge just before shooting. Do any of you Schuetzen-ators out there have an idea if this chamber and bore combination was intended for one method or the other?

I have always chosen a rifle boolit to fit the groove diameter plus one thousandth more and got good results, but am trying to rationalize all the measurements that seem a bit contradictory. Tom, over at Accurate Molds, lists three different stop-ring boolit molds of similar diameter and style on page 5 of his online catalog. They are all dimensioned, it seems, for the larger bore diameter. The 8.15X46R Schuetzen target rifle typically shoots a boolit of approximately 180 grains at around 1,400 fps, so the chamber pressure surely is not that great. Is the rifle made to use a boolit that is around seven thousandths of an inch over bore / groove diameter so that the long leade and smaller bore swage the boolit down? Do I need to order a mold in the customary manner of one thousandth of an inch over groove diameter? Any help would be appreciated.

[pietro]

.

No two chambers are alike in these rifles - most are 8.15x46R's and some were 7.7x46R's.

Grove diameters vary from .315 to .323

Since your barrel is marked 7.7, I would opine that contrary to the 8.15x46R marking, you have a 7.7x46R

Some barrels are proofed and rifled for jacketed projectiles, for some cast boolits, and some are breech seated stop ring bullets.

With a .323" bore, I would used cast boolits intended for the .32-40

.

[marlinman93]

Whether it's reamed for breech seating depends on the lead or transition from chamber to rifling. And some of the older chamber reamers have very gradual transitions that work well to breech seat regardless. It sounds like your could be that type.
But the real key is what type of action you have whether it will accommodate a mechanical seater to fit the action. Most are either Aydt, or Martini style actions, which don't lend them selves to mechanical seaters, and were almost always shot as fixed bullets.
I had a Haenel Aydt schuetzen rifle and used .32 Win. Sol. cases run through my 8.15x46 dies and then .32-40 bullets sized for the groove diameter. Never bought any stop ring bullets, and just loaded like I did my .32-40 ammo. Shot very well fixed, and very acurate.

[1874Sharps]

This is an Aydt system and with the sight fixed in the socket to the rear of the action it may be difficult to use a breech seating tool.

[1874Sharps]

Does anyone see any potential pressure or other problems if a soft boolit (say 20:1) were used and swaged down from the throat to the bore a good seven thousandths of an inch? The load I plan to start with is 13.5 grains of IMR 4227 with a 170 to 180 grain 20:1 boolit.

[Wilderness]

1874 Sharps - I know nothing of Schuetzens, but I do have an experience of a big difference between barrel and throat dimensions that relates to your questions. You say your rifle's throat starts at .323". That is probably the bullet diameter you will need to ensure nothing gets past the bullet, if using fixed ammo.

I had a very early Mannlicher Schonauer 9x56 carbine with .353" barrel and a long cone shaped throat that started at .359". Eventually I did a chamber cast, but before that I had worked out that a .354" bullet (Lyman .348 Loverin type mould) gave indifferent accuracy, and then only if loaded lightly. Next try was #3589HP (the carbine needed a heavy bullet for it to shoot to the sights), .360" from the mould. Sized to .354" it too shot indifferently. Lubed and gas checked at .360", with 40 gns 3031, it shot 1.25" groups at 50 yds and turned in a bit over 1900 fps.

[1874Sharps]

Thanks, guys. It would seem the answer, then, is to fit the boolit to the chamber and let the throat and bore swage it down, even though it has a whopping 0.007" to shrink. I will give it a try with some paper patch and 0.323" Lee 8 mm cast boolits I have on hand.

[samari46]

There were more than a few versions of the 8.15x45r cartridge. It was normalized and more or less standardized. Is the caliber designation 8.15x45-46 with an "N" after it?. if so it is a standardized version. If no "N" and as you say the throat will take .323 diameter bullets then breech seating should be the way to go. Normally basic tin- lead alloys are used something like 25 to 1 or 20 to 1. Your rifle will tell you what it likes. Frank

[1874Sharps]

There is no "N" or "NORM" stamped on it, so I suppose it was made before the attempts of standardization, or perhaps the standardization was ignored by this particular gunsmith.

[Gunlaker]

This is an Aydt system and with the sight fixed in the socket to the rear of the action it may be difficult to use a breech seating tool.

I would consider trying a plugged cartridge case as a breech seater. I've had good results with them in rifles where I have no mechanical seater. They'll work as long as the bullet doesn't take much effort to seat.

Chris,

[1874Sharps]

You know, that is not a bad idea! I could use an 8mm or perhaps 5/16" rod in an empty case and use it as a breech seating tool combined with the camming action of the swinging block of the Aydt action.

[marlinman93]

I would not expect good accuracy with a bullet that's .007" over groove diameter. The bullet being that large will have huge fins on the base created when it swages down into the rifling, and fins are detrimental to good accuracy.
I would not go over .001"-.002" over groove size myself. And for breech seating I'd only have the base band of the bullet that size. The forward bands would be a few thousandths smaller at each band until you reach bore diameter, and stop there.
You can breech seat with an Aydt action, but it will require a push seater, and a properly fitted bullet to allow you to do so. The old Ideal push seaters worked well, but of course not as easy as a seater with mechanical advantage.
This is an Ideal push seater on the middle left in my display case with the black knob.

https://i.imgur.com/gXFYQCkl.jpg

It has enough offset to work around the sight bases of Aydt type rifles. These can be made from a piece of 1/4" round rod threaded on both ends and bent to an offset for clearance. Use a fired case by drilling and tapping the base to fit the rod. Thread the rod long enough to allow it to adjust seating depth of the bullet.

[sharps4590]

Size the bullet to .318 and forget about it. If it's like my Haenel/Aydt of the same dimensions it'll shoot sub MOA at 100.

[Green Frog]

I am amazed that with all of these responses so far no one has suggested you visit the German Arms Collectors’ website where lots of real experts on German Guns of all sorts hang out. In addition, there are lots of enthusiastic owners and shooters of Germanic Schuetzen rifles that hang out on the ASSRA.com forum. Lots of knowledge resides at both of these sites.

Froggie

[JSnover]

I would consider trying a plugged cartridge case as a breech seater. I've had good results with them in rifles where I have no mechanical seater. They'll work as long as the bullet doesn't take much effort to seat.

Chris,
This is exactly what I'm doing with my Aydt (1890), at least it's what I was doing before covid shut down the ranges. It isn't complicated and should work pretty well, I just haven't been able to test it. I have a supply of 32-40 bullets and stop-ring boolits, plus the modified cartridge-turned seating tool, just waiting for things to get back to normal.

[sharps4590]

I am amazed that with all of these responses so far no one has suggested you visit the German Arms Collectors’ website where lots of real experts on German Guns of all sorts hang out. In addition, there are lots of enthusiastic owners and shooters of Germanic Schuetzen rifles that hang out on the ASSRA.com forum. Lots of knowledge resides at both of these sites.

Froggie

One of those would be me.

[JSnover]

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Here's my un-tested seating tool. If you're good with hand tools and a cordless drill it's a simple enough project, just fairly labor-intensive.

[Chill Wills]

282648282647
Here's my un-tested seating tool. If you're good with hand tools and a cordless drill it's a simple enough project, just fairly labor-intensive.

HEY! I like that! Smart!
Threaded means adjustable I assume. Very good!

[bullshot]

I just went through the same questions. I bought an AYDT style rifle. My bore measures .318 and groove is .322. Chamber cast shows a funnel type chamber
I was interested in a stop ring bullet, the one I questioned was an NOE 180 gr. The dimensions were, bore .327, groove .322 and the stop ring at .334. I'm thinking where does all the lead go from the stop ring. Well I still don't know. I guess it just gets swaged in the funnel chamber. I did buy the NOE and it shoots well but I have tied some grease groove types ranging from 165 gr to 220 gr and they shoot pretty much the same as the stop ring. Doing my part I can get right around an inch at 100 yds. Been using Imr 4227 and pull down WC 820 both with similar results. Good luck with yours. They are fun to shoot. A little awkward off the bench. Well really awkward but doable and with the minimal recoil.

[marlinman93]

282648282647
Here's my un-tested seating tool. If you're good with hand tools and a cordless drill it's a simple enough project, just fairly labor-intensive.

Great to have adjustment for seating depth. But how do you push the bullet into the rifling with this device?

[1874Sharps]

Bullshot,

It is awkward off the bench, indeed. I shot my Aydt for the first time a few days ago with Lee 180 grain gas check 8 mm (0.323") boolits and it shot reasonably well, although nothing to write home about. They were made to shoot off-hand, so I am going to cut a 4X4 and clamp it to the metal post of the cover over the benches at the range so I can rest the barrel on it and shoot off-hand. I can't shoot for sour apples off-hand without a rest!

[barrabruce]

You can just place one in the chamber on the bags and slide it along with the plugged case then it gets seated when closed.
I just use a back of a pencil sometimes with a bullet I use as I can push it home with one.
A firm hand seat and it is as far as it will go without using a big lever to mush the lead in.
It just has to sit against the throat/ grooves etc.
If you look down the muzzle and see daylight around the bullet you may have to seat deeper but try that first..
I’m no expert like the others but I don’t need to swage a bullet into the rifling for my gun to shoot it just has to seal and be there consistently.

You know if you got a good seal.
Pop a primer and if the case wants to self extract under pressure , your golden.

[JSnover]

HEY! I like that! Smart!
Threaded means adjustable I assume. Very good!

Thanks and yes it is meant to be adjustable since I haven't been able to do any testing. I made another for my rolling block 45-70. One of these days I'll get out there...

[JSnover]

Great to have adjustment for seating depth. But how do you push the bullet into the rifling with this device?

I plan to seat set the boolits a few thousandths long, so it just takes light pressure to close the breach, which results in a very light press-fit. In theory. I have a handful of expanded cases fitted up (some trimming/turning required).

[JSnover]

I just went through the same questions. I bought an AYDT style rifle. My bore measures .318 and groove is .322. Chamber cast shows a funnel type chamber
I was interested in a stop ring bullet, the one I questioned was an NOE 180 gr. The dimensions were, bore .327, groove .322 and the stop ring at .334. I'm thinking where does all the lead go from the stop ring. Well I still don't know. I guess it just gets swaged in the funnel chamber. I did buy the NOE and it shoots well but I have tied some grease groove types ranging from 165 gr to 220 gr and they shoot pretty much the same as the stop ring. Doing my part I can get right around an inch at 100 yds. Been using Imr 4227 and pull down WC 820 both with similar results. Good luck with yours. They are fun to shoot. A little awkward off the bench. Well really awkward but doable and with the minimal recoil.

If you decide to try a stop ring boolit, BACO usually has molds cut to various sizes for these chambers

[1874Sharps]

JSnover,

How much adjustment are you able to get out of the case and threaded rod tool that you made? I got some 8 mm rod in the mail today and am thinking about making one of those tools.

[David todd]

With my Haenel I just barely size the neck and seat just enough to grab the bullet base, then slide it into the chamber and close it up. it seems to work okay.
David

[JSnover]

JSnover,

How much adjustment are you able to get out of the case and threaded rod tool that you made? I got some 8 mm rod in the mail today and am thinking about making one of those tools.

A good 1/8" I guess. There's probably 1/4" of usable thread, but the plug is long enough that I'll never need that much.

[JSnover]

With my Haenel I just barely size the neck and seat just enough to grab the bullet base, then slide it into the chamber and close it up. it seems to work okay.
David

That's the simplest option. But I had a lot of time on my hands...

[1874Sharps]

Y'all have given me many great ideas and suggestions. I think I have a starting point to begin experimenting.

[1874Sharps]

JSnover,

You inspired me to make a similar breech seating tool. Even the little German guy carved on my Schuetzen's buttstock is celebrating!

[David todd]

Bullshot,

It is awkward off the bench, indeed. I shot my Aydt for the first time a few days ago with Lee 180 grain gas check 8 mm (0.323") boolits and it shot reasonably well, although nothing to write home about. They were made to shoot off-hand, so I am going to cut a 4X4 and clamp it to the metal post of the cover over the benches at the range so I can rest the barrel on it and shoot off-hand. I can't shoot for sour apples off-hand without a rest!

Just as a bit of a derail, what powder are you using in your AYDT? I use both 4759 and Trail Boss and have had reasonable 200 meter groups with 13 grains of 4759 and 8.5 grains of Trail Boss
David

[John Boy]

For the good of of the order ... I have 2 German 8.15x 46R Schuetzen rifles and have had better accuracy to 300 yds using the Dr Hudson 32-40 tapered bullet in fixed case reloads more accurate than stop ring bullet reloads

[1874Sharps]

I have been using 13.5 grains of IMR 4227 with the Lee 180 grain gas check boolit, but have only shot about 10 shots through it. I made some 8.15X46R cases from a few 25-35 Winchester cases I had on hand. I have 20 properly head stamped cases on backorder from Graf & Sons, but am still waiting on them and am therefore rather brass limited. Perhaps I can order a multi-cavity mold from Tom at Accurate Molds with a stop ring and a Dr. Hudson cavity. BTW, I just got my first ever mold from Tom for a 41 Swiss and am very impressed by the great quality!

[JSnover]

Huntington Die Specialties had new Norma brass last summer.

[JSnover]

JSnover,

You inspired me to make a similar breech seating tool. Even the little German guy carved on my Schuetzen's buttstock is celebrating!

Nice!

[JSnover]

For the good of of the order ... I have 2 German 8.15x 46R Schuetzen rifles and have had better accuracy to 300 yds using the Dr Hudson 32-40 tapered bullet in fixed case reloads more accurate than stop ring bullet reloads

Yeah, it does seem like the majority are having better luck with 'normal' boolits and fixed cases.

[marlinman93]

I have found that seating the bullet fully into the rifling is the most accurate way for my guns. At least with the bullet base even with the case mouth, or 1/16" beyond the case mouth.
I use tapered bullet molds to cast bullets that have the base band .001" larger than groove diameter, and forward bands gradually smaller as they go up to the nose. These allow the bullets to seal, and eliminate leading, but also breech seat with ease.
I still don't see how these cases shown here can fully seat a bullet into the rifling as they should? It seems they can only guide the bullet to the rifling, but wouldn't allow the bullet to be pushed into the rifling without something else pushing hard enough to seat the bullet fully?
I have numerous types of breech seaters, depending on the rifles I'm shooting. Each takes it's own style to be able to seat fully and all have mechanical advantage to do so easily.

Ballard seater:
https://i.imgur.com/BS8s6R8m.jpg

Rem. Hepburn seater:
https://i.imgur.com/dSsYNxYm.jpg

Ballard seater:
https://i.imgur.com/PXCaiU0m.jpg

[David todd]

.

No two chambers are alike in these rifles - most are 8.15x46R's and some were 7.7x46R's.

Grove diameters vary from .315 to .323

Since your barrel is marked 7.7, I would opine that contrary to the 8.15x46R marking, you have a 7.7x46R

Some barrels are proofed and rifled for jacketed projectiles, for some cast boolits, and some are breech seated stop ring bullets.

With a .323" bore, I would used cast boolits intended for the .32-40

.

Interesting note, yesterday out of curiosity I took the forend off my Haenel.
The top of the barrel is marked 8.115X46R, but the underneath of the barrel is stamped 7.7, which explains why it slugs out nicely with a .314 bullet!
David

[marlinman93]

A lot of different bore and groove diameters among 8.15x46R barrels. There doesn't seem to really be a standard size.

[David todd]

A lot of different bore and groove diameters among 8.15x46R barrels. There doesn't seem to really be a standard size.

Oh, I missed an important part that was mentioned earlier by someone else- mine is stamped 8.15X46NORM
David

[sharps4590]

A lot of different bore and groove diameters among 8.15x46R barrels. There doesn't seem to really be a standard size.

There wasn't until after WWI. Even then I'm not sure all makers abided by "NORM".

[marlinman93]

There wasn't until after WWI. Even then I'm not sure all makers abided by "NORM".

Yes, even "NORM" after the caliber didn't really standardize from what I've seen of various 8.15x46R bores. Maybe it established a "normal" chamber dimension, but bore and groove could certainly vary a fair amount.
But this isn't really specific to this caliber either. I see the same thing among 1800's American made rifles and barrels. Old single shots I have in .32-40 vary from as small as a .316" groove to as large as a .327" groove. The larger groove diameters have given me fits trying to shoot fixed ammo, and I finally gave up and simply shoot them as breech seaters, as that's the only way to shoot a bullet fitted to the groove, and still shoot them.
Same for my .38-55 rifles. They vary less, but smallest is a .378" groove, and largest is a .383" groove. The .383" is actually a Schoyen Ballard muzzle loading breech seater. So it was never built to shoot fixed, and is a false muzzle barrel designed to chamber a .38-55 case with charge, and muzzle load the bullet down against the case mouth.

[David todd]

JSnover,

You inspired me to make a similar breech seating tool. Even the little German guy carved on my Schuetzen's buttstock is celebrating!

I made something the same yesterday by pouring lead into one of my empty cases.
Seems to work great, a bullet extracted with a rod showed that it gets well engraved ! I cover the mouths of the charged cases with some crafters sheet beeswax before putting them in the box.
I was able to get some respectable 200 meter groups yesterday with the Trail Boss, and brushed every 5 rounds because I was worried a bit about wax build up , but the bore scope didn't show anything out of the norm.:smile:
David

[sharps4590]

Yes, even "NORM" after the caliber didn't really standardize from what I've seen of various 8.15x46R bores. Maybe it established a "normal" chamber dimension, but bore and groove could certainly vary a fair amount.
But this isn't really specific to this caliber either. I see the same thing among 1800's American made rifles and barrels. Old single shots I have in .32-40 vary from as small as a .316" groove to as large as a .327" groove. The larger groove diameters have given me fits trying to shoot fixed ammo, and I finally gave up and simply shoot them as breech seaters, as that's the only way to shoot a bullet fitted to the groove, and still shoot them.
Same for my .38-55 rifles. They vary less, but smallest is a .378" groove, and largest is a .383" groove. The .383" is actually a Schoyen Ballard muzzle loading breech seater. So it was never built to shoot fixed, and is a false muzzle barrel designed to chamber a .38-55 case with charge, and muzzle load the bullet down against the case mouth.

Same here mm. One better make a chamber cast and slug the bore on any of the old stuff. I have 3 in my accumulation that were assuredly not what they were advertised as. I really didn't mind and rather enjoyed the hunt for what it was and the process of making them shoot. Never did identify two of the cartridges.

[marlinman93]

Same here mm. One better make a chamber cast and slug the bore on any of the old stuff. I have 3 in my accumulation that were assuredly not what they were advertised as. I really didn't mind and rather enjoyed the hunt for what it was and the process of making them shoot. Never did identify two of the cartridges.

And I've seen enough old rifles rechambered to another cartridge to not take any for granted, regardless of how they're marked. A chamber cast is a must do thing for any new to me old gun.

[sharps4590]

And I've seen enough old rifles rechambered to another cartridge to not take any for granted, regardless of how they're marked. A chamber cast is a must do thing for any new to me old gun.

Yes sir. I have an unmarked drilling that has been re-chamered to probably a one off, made from 30-40 Krag cases. I can't complain...it is superbly accurate and mild mannered, once I worked up a load.

[marlinman93]

Yes sir. I have an unmarked drilling that has been re-chamered to probably a one off, made from 30-40 Krag cases. I can't complain...it is superbly accurate and mild mannered, once I worked up a load.

Prior to 1881 Marlin didn't even bother to mark the caliber on Ballard rifle barrels. So it's always been a crap shoot whenever I bought a 1875-1881 Ballard as to caliber for sure. I just got to the point that no matter what anyone told me I still did a chamber cast to confirm.
It's really a pretty quick process with an old soup can and a pan of boiling water to melt the Cerrosafe in. Takes longer to disassemble the gun and reassemble it.

[sharps4590]

I still say this site needs a like button...

[David todd]

Well, my home made breach seater seems to work okay with 7.5 grains of Red Dot and a 155 grain powder coated cast bullet!
This was at 300 meters today, the heavier strikes were from a 308.
about half of these were done offhand with the irons!
Happy camper here.....;-)
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