Drilling a flash hole

[hawkenhunter50]

So I got a contemporary flintlock from an online auction. Unknown maker .32 caliber. It arrived today and there is no flash hole drilled in the barrel. Couldn't tell this from the pics in the auction and it wasn't mentioned in the ad. So I checked the breechplug depth and it stops behind where I need to drill for the flash hole. Never done this before so was looking for tips on what to do and not to do. Particular drill bit I should use, etc???? Also what liner would be recommended, White Lightning or other?282404282405282406

[megasupermagnum]

Something doesn't seem right. I'm fairly sure there are a good number of foreign made muzzleloaders made for decoration only. I would be absolutely sure this isn't a piece of scrap iron before trying to fire this.

[hawkenhunter50]

Something doesn't seem right. I'm fairly sure there are a good number of foreign made muzzleloaders made for decoration only. I would be absolutely sure this isn't a piece of scrap iron before trying to fire this.

Just uploaded the few pics I have, this doesn't strike me as being an import. Barrel is nicely rifled. Really not sure why there's no flash hole, I always thought that was a step performed fairly early in a build, or at least determining where it should be drilled.

[rfd]

Some offshore guns, such as some if not all from India, are shipped without touch holes drilled in order to render them non-operational, non-firearms, for international shipping. Other than that, there is no common sense reason why the gunmaker didn't drill that most important part of a functioning gun. Which concerns me about bbl metal and gun proofing. Not a good sign.

I'd pull the bbl, pull the breech plug to see what kind it is - classic flat, I'd hope, and not patent. That would also allow anti-seize lubing the plug's threads before reassembling. A rod down the tube can also be used to detect if there's a lip at the back of the chamber which will indicate a patent plug ante-chamber.

I'd carefully align and drill for a Chambers White Lightning touch hole liner, as close to a flat breech plug face as you'd dare. Calculate and measure ten times, then drill. Good luck.

[William Yanda]

Fascinating dilemma. Non operational for shipping makes sense, but if so, how was it proofed? Very nice piece of wood for the stock. Is it natural or doctored for the tiger effect?

[indian joe]

Something doesn't seem right. I'm fairly sure there are a good number of foreign made muzzleloaders made for decoration only. I would be absolutely sure this isn't a piece of scrap iron before trying to fire this.

I am thinking the same - dont like to say it (and cant see quite enough detail in the pics) but it looks like a rough copy of a really nice style rifle - or could be the first effort from a budding builder - the thing that would swing me is the trigger - if thats a decent single set trigger (and a decent functional lock) I would go shootin (put a nice coned touch hole liner in first ) BUT if its just a fancy lookin single trigger on a pivot I would follow rfd and go over that thing with a fine tooth comb - a 32 leaves a fair amount of meat in the barrel and its a little charge so that adds a safety margin. check that trigger out and let us know?????

[mooman76]

Maybe better pictures close up will help. Could be someone did their own build and never got around to the flash hole or just didn't want to shoot it. Pull the barrel and see if there are markings underneath.

[rfd]

No matter what, it's a pig in a poke. Best of luck.

[RU shooter]

How big of a barrel is on it width across the flats ? Take the barrel out and pull the breach plug there should be some sorta makers ID on it somewhere if it's a modern barrel . Check the fit of the plug before drilling anything . If it's fitted good against the inside shoulder you could just drill a simple vent hole and test fire it . .062" -.075" dia should work if your getting some delay in firing you can drill and tap for the 1/4" dia vent liner . I just used a simpl vent in the 45 cal I just did it goes off with no delay but there's less distance due to the bigger bore dia.

[hawkenhunter50]

Maybe better pictures close up will help. Could be someone did their own build and never got around to the flash hole or just didn't want to shoot it. Pull the barrel and see if there are markings underneath.

That's kind of what I'm thinking. The wood is real tiger stripe, not made to look. The inletting is pretty decently done. The eagle carving is pretty nice work. The scrolls look like a kindergarden kid did them. And it's got a pretty nice patchbox. I wouldn't think an import gun would be nicely done in all these areas but who knows, I've been wrong before. I'm working on getting some better pics and will pull the barrel and plug like suggested when I get a chance. Also closer inspection shows a dimple in approximate location of the touch hole, like someone marked it with a punch but just never drilled it out.

Also was kind of hoping to figure this all out without much disassembly in case I return the rifle, haven't spoke with the auction house yet to know if that's an option.282414282415282416282417282418

[hawkenhunter50]

More pics282420282421282422282423282424282425

[hawkenhunter50]

How big of a barrel is on it width across the flats ? Take the barrel out and pull the breach plug there should be some sorta makers ID on it somewhere if it's a modern barrel . Check the fit of the plug before drilling anything . If it's fitted good against the inside shoulder you could just drill a simple vent hole and test fire it . .062" -.075" dia should work if your getting some delay in firing you can drill and tap for the 1/4" dia vent liner . I just used a simpl vent in the 45 cal I just did it goes off with no delay but there's less distance due to the bigger bore dia.

7/8" Barrel across the flats, measured at muzzle end.

[hawkenhunter50]

Douglas barrel282426

[hawkenhunter50]

I am thinking the same - dont like to say it (and cant see quite enough detail in the pics) but it looks like a rough copy of a really nice style rifle - or could be the first effort from a budding builder - the thing that would swing me is the trigger - if thats a decent single set trigger (and a decent functional lock) I would go shootin (put a nice coned touch hole liner in first ) BUT if its just a fancy lookin single trigger on a pivot I would follow rfd and go over that thing with a fine tooth comb - a 32 leaves a fair amount of meat in the barrel and its a little charge so that adds a safety margin. check that trigger out and let us know?????

Can't tell about the trigger, I tried to remove the trigger guard but I think it might be epoxied in place, I don't see a pin for the front. I removed the rear screw and it is tight, doesn't budge, without seeing a pin in the front I'm guessing it may be epoxied there. Other than that, I'm not 100% sure how a single set trigger works. I cocked the lock and tried pushing the trigger forward (only way I'd know a single set may work??) but nothing happens.

At this point with a Douglas barrel I probably won't push my luck trying to remove the trigger guard. I can try getting better trigger pics as it sits if that'd help.

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

[mooman76]

Douglas are good barrel makers.

[hawkenhunter50]

And pics of the lock. Unable to determine lock maker looking at different locks at Track of the Wolf and several other muzzleloader supply houses. It was pretty dirty and took a good cleaning, perhaps it was taken off another rifle. It sparks pretty well, but the hammer portion has a little play in it. Might have to disasemble the lock and see what's going on there.

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[pietro]

.

With a Douglas barrel, you can be assured that it's not a cheap import - so, probably an assembly by a talented amateur.

I'd drill the flash hole after you sort out the lock and give it a test fire, tied to a vehicle spare tire; but most likely it'll turn out to be OK.

.

[indian joe]

.

With a Douglas barrel, you can be assured that it's not a cheap import - so, probably an assembly by a talented amateur.

I'd drill the flash hole after you sort out the lock and give it a test fire, tied to a vehicle spare tire; but most likely it'll turn out to be OK.

.

Douglas barrel, decent sights, good piece of timber, plain trigger (theres no adjustment screw so its not a single set?) I dont recognise the lock but it looks like it should work ok, tang is fitted up neat and straight to the barrel, so - does lock / trigger function correctly? (the trigger plate looks a little deep inletted) -- I would go with Pietro at this point - if it functions ok - drill it, test fire - go shoot - I definitely put a proper touch hole liner in, coned inside, and as big diameter as the barrel flat will stand - get that main charge as close to the pan as possible.

[Sasquatch-1]

If you want to check the inside of barrel and don't want to take it apart, buy a cheap endoscope of Amazon or Ebay, that will attach to your phone or computer. These typically run under$20.00.

Also, on the picture of the lock you posted, is there a gap between the barrel and the breach plug or is that an illusion?

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, I wrote my first post before ever seeing any pictures. That is definitely not a cheap import, and a Douglas barrel is top quality.

Drilling a flash hole is one of the last steps in gun building, which maybe this was a project that never quite got finished. Odd that whoever did this, carved and finished the stock before drilling the flash hole. I can take pictures of how to do the flash hole from "recreating the american longrifle". Lots of people recommend the Jim Chambers white lightning liner. It's probably just me, but when someone uses a bizarre thread just so they can make life harder for others, I get put off. In my own build, I'm going to use a liner with a 1/4"-28 thread, a common thread that has been used for centuries. You can buy those liners from Track of the Wolf.

That said, there is nothing wrong at all with simply drilling a hole through the side of the barrel and calling it good. If you don't like the performance of it, all you then have to do is drill and tap it for a liner after the fact. I think most people recommend a 1/16" drill bit as a good size.

[waksupi]

Ok, I wrote my first post before ever seeing any pictures. That is definitely not a cheap import, and a Douglas barrel is top quality.

Drilling a flash hole is one of the last steps in gun building, which maybe this was a project that never quite got finished. Odd that whoever did this, carved and finished the stock before drilling the flash hole. I can take pictures of how to do the flash hole from "recreating the american longrifle". Lots of people recommend the Jim Chambers white lightning liner. It's probably just me, but when someone uses a bizarre thread just so they can make life harder for others, I get put off. In my own build, I'm going to use a liner with a 1/4"-28 thread, a common thread that has been used for centuries. You can buy those liners from Track of the Wolf.

That said, there is nothing wrong at all with simply drilling a hole through the side of the barrel and calling it good. If you don't like the performance of it, all you then have to do is drill and tap it for a liner after the fact. I think most people recommend a 1/16" drill bit as a good size.


I agree, don't care for the threads on the White Lightening, although the tap isn't all that hard to come by. They were popularized by the eastern cult. They work no better than a standard 1/4 X 28 vent.

Another point on that. Vents DO wear out. The hole gets larger with a lot of shooting, and accuracy will suffer. I recommend buying a few extras if you use them. Sure as hell, some day they won't be available, then you are stuck with making one, or paying a machinist to do it for you.

[hawkenhunter50]

If you want to check the inside of barrel and don't want to take it apart, buy a cheap endoscope of Amazon or Ebay, that will attach to your phone or computer. These typically run under$20.00.

Also, on the picture of the lock you posted, is there a gap between the barrel and the breach plug or is that an illusion?

If you mean post #10 the 1st pic, yes thats an illusion, I saw that too once I posted it and had to go double check myself.

[mooman76]

I would just drill the hole. If it gets enlarged eventually, then you can add the liner.

[indian joe]

I would just drill the hole. If it gets enlarged eventually, then you can add the liner.

Its a 32 cal x 7/8" -- a fair bit of meat in the barrel wall - I reckon a straight drill through might end up with scratchy ignition (flash in the pan or hangfires/ slow ignition) - nice looking piece with a Douglas barrel - last thing I would want is be out on the line cussin cuz it wont light off properly. (its fine for a bit of testing though)

[megasupermagnum]

A lot of this wont apply to you anymore, since the gun is already built. Essentially at this point all you can do is verify your touch hole will clear the breech plug. At that point you mark your hole level with the top of the pan, and centered front and back in the pan. Mark it with a center punch. Drill a pilot hole. Drill whatever size you need for the threads you are going to use. Tap it with whatever tap matches your liner. Very lightly chamfer/deburr the hole. Thread in liner. Most also recommend filing the installed liner off flush with the barrel flat, rendering it permanent, but more visually appealing.

https://i.ibb.co/C2fSD39/20210506-003831.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/GWk3Svw/20210506-003755.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Ydt7Rc3/20210506-003856.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/RgcwXnc/20210506-003902.jpg

[hawkenhunter50]

A lot of this wont apply to you anymore, since the gun is already built. Essentially at this point all you can do is verify your touch hole will clear the breech plug. At that point you mark your hole level with the top of the pan, and centered front and back in the pan. Mark it with a center punch. Drill a pilot hole. Drill whatever size you need for the threads you are going to use. Tap it with whatever tap matches your liner. Very lightly chamfer/deburr the hole. Thread in liner. Most also recommend filing the installed liner off flush with the barrel flat, rendering it permanent, but more visually appealing.

https://i.ibb.co/C2fSD39/20210506-003831.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/GWk3Svw/20210506-003755.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Ydt7Rc3/20210506-003856.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/RgcwXnc/20210506-003902.jpg

Thanks for that info. Kinda what I thought, the location has been decided for me already. And I had verified already, it will clear the breechplug in the barrel. Was looking on Track of the Wolf, looks like they have a kit with everything needed to do one, might go with one of those.

[trapper9260]

Just a idea , if you not sure and do not want to spend the funds to get what you need and have it done right . Take it to a gunsmith you trust . Since alot of what you need to get will be used once. just a idea to past on .

[waksupi]

Just a idea , if you not sure and do not want to spend the funds to get what you need and have it done right . Take it to a gunsmith you trust . Since alot of what you need to get will be used once. just a idea to past on .

I would specify a MUZZLELOADER gunsmith. Many modern gun mechanics are not that familiar with them. You want someone who knows where to put the vent.

[indian joe]

I would specify a MUZZLELOADER gunsmith. Many modern gun mechanics are not that familiar with them. You want someone who knows where to put the vent.

Definitely! And if he hasnt shot flintlocks a good bit he's still likely to come up short --

my 7/8 barrel is .35 across the flats, that will take a 5/16" liner and thats what it will get. Seeing that I am ten thousand miles and a lot of legal complications away from TOW I will turn it myself from brass (or maybe bearing bronze) and if / when it wears to the point its a problem - replace it

Drilling a straight hole is fine to test the gun out but I reckon (specially in a 32cal) its gonna drive me nuts with erratic ignition - proper coned touch hole liner is a no brainer if you gonna shoot it much.

[hawkenhunter50]

You guys are worrying me about this gunsmith talk, I was kinda figuring on doing like Megasupermagnum mentioned above, not sure what other choice I have at this point. I'm not sure what else a gunsmith could do either other than drilling a hole where the pan is and hope it works.

[rfd]

Its not that big a deal to drill a hole for a touch hole liner.

You need a drill press. You need a drill bit and tap (the size of each to match the liner you want to install).

The diameter of the *threaded* hole is taken into consideration, and if the breech plug is flat, a ramrod down the tube will tell you precisely where the plug ends with regards to the precisely where that hole needs to be drilled so that its threaded diameter will barely touch the plug face.

Measure thrice, proceed.

[megasupermagnum]

Sorry for the fuzzy pictures. They are not that fuzzy on my phone. Apparently sometimes they upload in lower resolution for some reason. I can retry if anyone cares.

No need for a gunsmith. Remember these guys used to build these out of hand tools, and intern labor. Drilling and tapping a hole is one of the easier tasks of building a rifle. As I'm finding out, simply making a barrel fit the stock is way harder.

@indian joe, as for using brass for a touch hole liner, I wouldn't do it. Some bronze would be ok if you know what alloy you are using. Brass has a yield strength around 20,000 psi. I have no doubts blackpowder rifles can run 15,000 psi. I'm not an engineer, but based on monkey wrenching, I would not trust brass for such a job. Bronze is a whole other matter, and certain alloys have been used to make gun barrels and even cannons for a long time.

That said, you are probably money and time ahead to just make it from steel or stainless steel.

[hawkenhunter50]

Sorry for the fuzzy pictures. They are not that fuzzy on my phone. Apparently sometimes they upload in lower resolution for some reason. I can retry if anyone cares.

No need for a gunsmith. Remember these guys used to build these out of hand tools, and intern labor. Drilling and tapping a hole is one of the easier tasks of building a rifle. As I'm finding out, simply making a barrel fit the stock is way harder.

@indian joe, as for using brass for a touch hole liner, I wouldn't do it. Some bronze would be ok if you know what alloy you are using. Brass has a yield strength around 20,000 psi. I have no doubts blackpowder rifles can run 15,000 psi. I'm not an engineer, but based on monkey wrenching, I would not trust brass for such a job. Bronze is a whole other matter, and certain alloys have been used to make gun barrels and even cannons for a long time.

That said, you are probably money and time ahead to just make it from steel or stainless steel.

I couldn't see any pics at all. I could see when I replied with quote to your post earlier, it looked like image links, but something has been messed up here for me lately, I can only see pics in threads once in a while. But thanks for the effort anyhow.

[RU shooter]

Optimal position for say a 1/4 liner you would center punch and drill your pilot hole an 1/8" (.125) forward off the face of your breach plug this way your not into the threads of the barrel and plug . You will need to measure to verify that position is close to the center of your pan on the lock . It can be off slightly in the pan without issues so don't fret if it's not exactly centered you can always open up the pan a little

[rfd]

... Also closer inspection shows a dimple in approximate location of the touch hole, like someone marked it with a punch but just never drilled it out.


Gotta good shot of both the lock and bbl dimple?

If the dimple is in a good spot with regards to the lock's pan, and if you take a ramrod measurement inside the bbl, of where the breech plug face sits with regards to that bbl dimple, it might be the correct, or a correct spot for touch hole liner drilling. If all this looks good, yer good to go, easy job.

[waksupi]

Definitely! And if he hasnt shot flintlocks a good bit he's still likely to come up short --

my 7/8 barrel is .35 across the flats, that will take a 5/16" liner and thats what it will get. Seeing that I am ten thousand miles and a lot of legal complications away from TOW I will turn it myself from brass (or maybe bearing bronze) and if / when it wears to the point its a problem - replace it

Drilling a straight hole is fine to test the gun out but I reckon (specially in a 32cal) its gonna drive me nuts with erratic ignition - proper coned touch hole liner is a no brainer if you gonna shoot it much.

I keep some 1/4 X 28 stainless all-thread in the shop to make vents if needed.

I don't mind installing a vent that somewhat over laps the breech plug. The drill will make some clearance on the face. I then unbreech the barrel, and smooth the transition on the breech face for easier cleaning.

[LAGS]

@waksupi
That is exactly how I set up the liner on the Blunderbuss Kit I am building.
It works good.
My Flash Hole center is about 1/16" ahead of the breech plug face.

[waarp8nt]

I have purchased a couple of these auction muzzleloaders over the last year. One simply needed the trigger shimmed down to function properly as the hammer (cock) wouldn't stay back in the cocked position. The other one had a lock mortise so poorly inlet that I may end up using it for parts. Your rifle looks like its worth keeping even though it needs a few repairs / upgrades.

Its interesting to me that one of the screws that holds tumbler in place doubles as a screw that holds the lock in place. Improper assembly may effect trigger pull / tumbler function. See picture - screw is missing in the circled red section and I am assuming it is one screws that holds the lock in place too, otherwise you might be missing a screw.

You might look closely in the lock inlet for the trigger guard pin, I have seen a few pins that were placed hidden behind the lock assembly and the pin didn't bother to go out the other side of the stock making trigger guard removal more difficult.

I use the basic vent liner from Track of the Wolf https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/960/1/THL-S4S
It increased my shot to shot consistency with out a single misfire by 400% over the smallest recommended drill size for a flash hole.

282734

[hawkenhunter50]

I have purchased a couple of these auction muzzleloaders over the last year. One simply needed the trigger shimmed down to function properly as the hammer (cock) wouldn't stay back in the cocked position. The other one had a lock mortise so poorly inlet that I may end up using it for parts. Your rifle looks like its worth keeping even though it needs a few repairs / upgrades.

Its interesting to me that one of the screws that holds tumbler in place doubles as a screw that holds the lock in place. Improper assembly may effect trigger pull / tumbler function. See picture - screw is missing in the circled red section and I am assuming it is one screws that holds the lock in place too, otherwise you might be missing a screw.

You might look closely in the lock inlet for the trigger guard pin, I have seen a few pins that were placed hidden behind the lock assembly and the pin didn't bother to go out the other side of the stock making trigger guard removal more difficult.

I use the basic vent liner from Track of the Wolf https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/960/1/THL-S4S
It increased my shot to shot consistency with out a single misfire by 400% over the smallest recommended drill size for a flash hole.

282734

Yes that is where the lock screw goes through, I had never seen that before either. And I did search in the lock mortise for the trigger guard pin and didn't see it there either, although the lock mortise inletting is rough so could have possibly overlooked it.