Discussion about 38 special wadcutters for target use.

[tazman]

In particular, the effect on pressures and internal volume of different wadcutter boolits.
I have recently seen a couple of people make what I believe is a mistake about necessary powder charges for standard target wadcuters when changing from a hollow based wadcutter to a solid wadcutter.
Specifically, a wadcutter loaded flush with the case mouth and crimped in place in both instances.
The idea was expressed that there would be less pressure from a solid wadcutter so loaded because the boolit is shorter than a hollow based wadcutter which would be seated deeper inside the case. I believe this to be in error.
In both instances, the boolits are flush with the case mouth. Both boolits weigh exactly 148 grains. There is exactly the same weight of lead inside the case in each instance. Both boolits would displace the same amount of water if dropped into a glass. Assuming the same alloy for each boolit, the solid volume of each boolit would be the same because they weigh the same.
The only reason the hollow based wadcutter base is farther into the case is because of the hole on the back end of the boolit. Even though the base is deeper into the boolit, the hollow in the base allows for the same internal volume for the cartridge as a solid boolit. There should be no difference in pressure due to the boolit other than a possibly tiny amount due to a longer drive band area. I would expect this to make little difference in pressure during firing.

If there is an obvious error in my reasoning, please educate me.

[dverna]

I agree with your analysis

[Thumbcocker]

I lack the knowledge to weigh in on this so I will just watch.

[OS OK]

I agree also. The only difference being the drive band length which you'd think takes a little more push to make it move so it sits in place for a 'fraction of a fraction' of a second longer as the combustion starts until a little extra pressure is built to move the cast.
Maybe that results in a different pressure overall but I'd think it was minimal.

Does that sound about right?

[Outpost75]

All you need to do is look at the pressure test data in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, 2010.

[ReloaderFred]

I agree, tazman. When I was shooting PPC matches on our dept. Pistol Team in the 1970's, we went through thousands and thousands of wadcutter bullets. We generally loaded solid wadcutters for the 7 yard line, and HBWC's for the 25 and 50 yard lines. We cast our own solid wadcutters, and purchased our HBWC's, so there was a savings, since we were loading and paying for our own ammunition. We used the exact same powder charge for both bullets, 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Never once did we ever notice any difference in visible pressure signs, recoil or even point of impact.

We simply used the HBWC bullets at the longer distances because we got better accuracy at those distances with the bullets we were buying, and psychologically, we "knew" we would shoot better with the purchased HBWC bullets. We had a Ransom Rest mounted to a concrete base that we tested our loads with at 50 yards, so the proof the HBWC loads were more accurate were shown on the target from the rest.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[tazman]

All you need to do is look at the pressure test data in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, 2010.

I just looked at the data in that manual and I am not certain what you are referring to. The data for the 358091 is for the boolit crimped in the crimp groove, not even with the case mouth.
That changes everything.
Trim length for a 38 special case is 1.149 the OAL for the 358091 is listed as 1.317. That is a difference of .168 inches. Completely different data.

[9.3X62AL]

I generally agree with the above series of texts. It has been a while, but I have abundant past experience with both solid and hollow-based wadcutters in both 32 S&W Long and 38 Special calibers; I have substantially less time-in-grade with these same bullet designs in 32 H&R Magnum and 357 Magnum.

Solid wadcutter designs are far more load-flexible than are HBWCs. Irrespective of caliber loaded, the HBWC is somewhat restricted in pressure levels the ammo can be loaded to. Once past the pressure gradient that enables more than about 825 FPS, you run the risk of sticking a HBWC skirt in a forcing cone or bore; both Speer and Hornady warn against exceeding listed max loads in their respective manuals for this reason. Solid wadcutters, on the other hand, are only limited by the pressure containment potential of the firearms firing them; I have run both Lymans #313492 and #358432 to 1200 FPS+ with no loss of accuracy. Both bullets (now out-of-print) are superbly accurate from 700 FPS to 1200 FPS. My best loads with HBWCs run in the 750-775 FPS ZIP Code.

[ddixie884]

The two bullets take up the same amount of space if they are the same weight and seated to the same OAL......

[tazman]

The two bullets take up the same amount of space if they are the same weight and seated to the same OAL......

That was my point exactly.
The only qualifier would be having the same, or nearly so, nose shape. That slight button on the nose of some wadcutters will give a slightly longer OAL but I doubt it makes much difference to the pressure.

Interesting that the factory loadings all run in the vicinity of 700fps.
I seem to get better accuracy at around 800 fps or a bit more.
Much of the difference may be because of the weakness of the hollow base. The factory doesn't want to push it as 9.3X62AL suggests..

9.3X62AL--- I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion of the 358432. I use that boolit a lot. It spends a lot of time in my carry revolver.

[downzero]

Pressure = force / area

[Outpost75]

.38 wadcutter OAL to fit S&W 52 magazine is 1.265, check Lyman data for Saeco wadcutter at that OAL pressure is <14,000 psi

[tazman]

.38 wadcutter OAL to fit S&W 52 magazine is 1.265, check Lyman data for Saeco wadcutter at that OAL pressure is <14,000 psi

That may well be the longest length that will fit in a S&W 52 magazine. I have never owned one so I can't say.
The majority of factory loaded wadcutters I have seen are loaded shorter than that. Right even with the mouth of the case.

[MT Gianni]

The HB wadcutter will have a longer bearing surface and increased friction.

[USSR]

That may well be the longest length that will fit in a S&W 52 magazine. I have never owned one so I can't say.
The majority of factory loaded wadcutters I have seen are loaded shorter than that. Right even with the mouth of the case.

Yeah, most everyone I've talked to loads them flush with the case mouth to get them to feed properly.

Don

[USSR]

Here's a link to the Bullseye Forum talking about loading for the Model 52. Consensus: bullet seated to slightly below case mouth and a slight roll crimp.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t9470-attempting-to-load-for-the-sw-model-52

Don

[Geezer in NH]

Read this post twice what are we arguing about?

I have shot 3 grains bullseye or Red dot with my own cast wadcutters and 2.7 of either with bought HBWC so the hollow bases won't separate.

Unless I load the HBWC in backwards then I will go much higher than both loads stated.

[Bigslug]

The HB wadcutter will have a longer bearing surface and increased friction.

It's also going to have the Minie ball effect trying to expand the base into the available bore space, so maybe a little more drag from that too, so a slight increase in pressure, methinks. How that maintains once it jumps the cylinder gap and starts venting? ? ? ? I suspect that involves a lot of math. . .and that stuff HURTS! :veryconfu

[tazman]

These conditions MAY cause an increase in drag and an increase in pressure. I think these differences will be minimal and not cause a great change in pressure. I could be wrong about this.
Mostly, I am relying on test reports from members who have compared pressures from different hardness and between jacketed and cast. The differences are normally not great or even significant in many cases.
I have no means of testing to find out.
This would be a fairly straightforward test for someone who does have the necessary equipment. That is probably the only way we can get a definitive answer.

[USSR]

Where's Larry when ya need him?[smilie=s:

Don

[Drm50]

At such low velocities what difference does it make? You can run a solid WC per weight same as any style of cast boolit. You can’t with most HBWCs. Depending on alloy how skirt will hold up. The accuracy of loads will be the individual gun as with anything else. I load WCs exclusively in my S&Ws. 38sp- 44sp- 45AR & 45 Colt. I pour my own and favor button nose. I don’t have much experience with my own HBWCs. haven’t had chance to shoot many. Have shot a lot of Hornady 38 HBWCs with outstanding results. Have bought HBWC 44 not used yet.
The only thing I disagree with in above posts is physical mass doesn’t mean equal volume. A solid cylinder is a pretty economical package for weight. If you want to get technical anything extra to cylinder will increase its surface area.

[robertbank]

I agree with Tazman here mainly due to his logic. I load my wadcitters for my Model 10, the only 38spl revolver in my safe right now. The gun loves it using 700X or Bullseye. I have more of the former. I now have my old .41LC 1892 converted to 38spl via a 38LC cylinder and a new barrel. I cracked the old 41LC forcing cone. The gun remains an antique under our insanely stupid gun laws. The gun is very accurate in it's new dress SA using Dominion cases and the RCBS WC bullet.

Take Care

Bob

[GooseGestapo]

Back in the ‘90’s and early 2,000’s when I was at my peak shooting PPC, Itoo shot cast DE wadcutters at the “short” lines. (7,15,25yds). At 50yds in matches I’d use either Star or Precision Delta hollow base wadcutters.
I used the same powder charge (2.7 Bullseye, or 2.9gr HP38/231).
I had to make a 1-click elevation and 2-click windage change for the HB wadcutters. I don’t shoot well enough anymore to justify the price of HB wadcutters.
Circa 2003, a friend I was giving some of my cast wadcutters to for practice and league matches tried them through his PPC gun at 50yds from a Ransom rest. They shot 1.5”!
He hasn’t bought hollow base swagged wadcutters in 17yrs.
Neither have I!
(Yeah I know,.... Lee 148TL with w/w, range scrap, and a tad of 95/5 leadfree solder, LLA thinned w/paint thinner, sized .358”...)

[OS OK]

G.E. Fryxell has a lot to say about the WC...chp .11 > http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_11_Wadcutter.htm

[dverna]

Thanks for posting that link Charlie. Brought back memories. My first mold was a 10 cavity H&G #50. That thing would rain bullets.

[Outpost75]

Current issue of The Fouling Shot #271 has a followup by Bill Duncan on testing .38 Special wadcutters at 100 yards.

Earlier issue #258 has background on his earlier 200-yard testing and details on his fast-twist PPC gun.