Having a lot of setbacks...

[Land Owner]

I am in a slump and do not now know what to do next.

I've made some [constant] 58 gr., 49-49-2 Pb-WW-Sn, RCBS 22-55-SP's, to be water quenched after PC, [variables] gas checked, PC'd with Smoke's OD Green, and sized to 0.225", and PC's some with Smoke's Bacon Grease, not sized, not gas checked, 0.226", and loaded STANDARD JACKETED LOADS (ladder loads) of Win 748 powder (23.5 grains ~ 2700 fps book velocity to 25.5 grains ~ 3100 fps) in 0.5 grain increments.

The first three sets of three, nine in each, cast rounds from a Handi-rifle Standard 1:12 twist barrel and a Bull 1:9 barrel found their respective targets and made "decent" but as yet unacceptable groups (best ~2.5 MOA @ 100 yds).

EVERYTHING thereafter DISAPPEARED. None of the next 6 rounds for either rifle (12 rounds and then some others) found any portion of the 24" x 36" white drawing sheet over cardboard backed target. Using 60 grain jacketed Nosler Partitions for double checking, the scopes on each rifle are still dead on the center of the sheet.

Did the cast projectiles disintegrate? At 10 yards, additional [constant] cast boolits over 25.0 grain Win 748 powder put a hurtin' on a 12" diameter (nearly dead) Sable Palm tree, blowing out its back side. Beyond that distance, IDK where the projectiles went.

If jacketed bullet powder loads (>2500 fps say) are too hot, and cast boolit manual loads (up to 1200 fps say) are cold for PC'd boolits, WHERE do we find published data for PC'd boolits?

Are we WILDCATTING here in the middle ground of 1200 fps to 2500 fps? Is there a resource for what has been tried, notwithstanding a specific barrel reacting independently, so reinventing the wheel isn't necessary?

[405grain]

I think that the problem might be too much velocity. Like any handloading: start low, then work up. Try starting out at published cast boolit load levels, then working up in increments until accuracy goes away, or there is some other problem inhibiting the cartridges performance. Just my opinion, but I've always felt that accuracy was more important than velocity. Where ever you get your best accuracy and reliability with a given boolit/cartridge combination, that should be your load. For a lot of cast loads (not all) that is usually somewhere between 1600 fps and 1900 fps. Your mileage may vary, but you won't know for sure until you work up the best load for your particular firearm.

[Capt Keith]

Have you checked for leading that may be throwing the accuracy off?

[Winger Ed.]

If you're not too terribly far off target, sometimes you can see where ya are by aiming at 12:00, 6:00,
and it that doesn't work- shoot at each corner.

Next thing would be to cover the whole target board with white butcher paper.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

You don't say what cartridge you are using but I guess 223 Rem. My 223 is a Browning with a 1:12" twist which through experiment will shoot RCBS 55gn cast and powder coated boolits right up to 2,800fps with good accuracy.

A friends 'Ruger American' with 1:8" twist will not shoot cast boolits at all. Check the twist rate on your barrel and I suspect thet may be the problem?

https://i.imgur.com/Gc8Va4u.jpg

[Land Owner]

405grain - I started at the bottom for the published recipe and worked up. Tell me where to find published recipes for 1600 fps to 1900 fps powder and I'll take a look.

Capt Keith - I'll check tomorrow when I clean the guns.

Winger Ed - I shot at each corner, top, bottom, and middle of a blank 24" x 36" white plotter paper target with the hotter loads than those that printed and nothing.

BAW - The barrel twist rates are as stated. A 22-55-SP is 223 Rem.

[Ford SD]

I am in a slump and do not now know what to do next.

I've made some [constant] 58 gr., 49-49-2 Pb-WW-Sn, RCBS 22-55-SP's, to be water quenched after PC, [variables] gas checked, PC'd with Smoke's OD Green, and sized to 0.225", and PC's some with Smoke's Bacon Grease, not sized, not gas checked, 0.226", and loaded STANDARD JACKETED LOADS (ladder loads) of Win 748 powder (23.5 grains ~ 2700 fps book velocity to 25.5 grains ~ 3100 fps) in 0.5 grain increments.




i think you are trying to go too fast

From the rcbs cast book
rcbs 22-055 fn 57g

748 17.0 - 1927 to 19.0 - 2136 fps

at 25g you are approaching light speed for the Millennium Falcon

you can also try a bit of dacron ....

[405grain]

Try "The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition". The Lyman 48th handloading manual has some cast load data for the 223, but it's identical to the 55 grain loads in the Cast Bullet Handbook. The highest velocity load they have listed for a 55 grain cast bullet in 223 Remington is 2226 fps, so I think that you may be trying to push your bullets way too hard. Also, these published cast loads were tested with a universal receiver that had a 1-12 twist rate. Your bull barrel with the 1-9 twist rate could be too fast a twist for cast bullets at the velocities your shooting. You can't really use jacketed load data for cast bullets. The barrel friction is lower, and the velocity is way higher when using cast bullets with the same load data as jacketed. Also, the jacket is much more resistant to failure under the centripetal loads of high velocity than any cast bullet could be. If you slow your loads down you'll probably have better performance.

[405grain]

At Castpics there's a three part article about loading cast bullets in 223. (PC coated bullets are cast bullets) Here's a link to the first article: the other two are on the site.
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/the-library/cartridge-specific-articles/223-cast-in-the-223-part-1

[Land Owner]

405grain - Let me digest this. Some good places to start. Thank you.

FordSD - all my gear is RCBS and I didn't know RCBS had a cast boolit manual...

[Gee_Wizz01]

Your allow might be too soft for the higher velocities. You might want try some linotype alloy, especially for the higher velocities. Also I have had no luck on 223 without gas checks. I think your bullets are stripping the rifling at the higher velocities and are flying very eratically. One benefit of using linotype is ease of casting, especially with 22 cal boolits. Good luck.

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[Land Owner]

Going too fast is acknowledged. I like your comparison at 25 gr. Ford SD.

Additional reading is complete, except for the RCBS Cast Manual, to which I don't have access. I own the Lyman #4 Manual, referenced offhanded in the OP. No loads there are Win 748. The point being made was where do I find published Powder Coated boolit reloading recipes?

Back to the reloading bench. More PC'ing to do. More loads to test. More targets to punch. I am ordinarily a very steady shooter. I was real mad at the targets during my last range session. That had a lot to do with the level of frustration at NOT seeing holes in 24" x 36" white paper at which I KNEW I was aiming. I still owe Capt Keith a check for barrel leading...meaning I have not cleaned the barrels yet - that's next this morning.

Thank you for the replies. They have helped a lot. My frustration, like a virus, has run its course.

[charlie b]

First, yes we are wildcatting with PC lead bullets. There is no mfg data for them that I know of. I use lubed cast bullet mfg data for my loading. It ends up being fairly accurate compared to the muzzle velocities I measure at the range.

I have not tried to load for .223 but I have loaded a 'lot' of .308.

Since you had some identifiable groups at the beginning and not later tells me it is something to do with leading or other deposits in the barrel. I also am one of those who thinks that the PC does leave a deposit in the barrel. Gas checked bullets are less of a problem, IMHO because they 'scrape' out the PC fouling. Plain base bullets I have had trouble with after firing 50 to 100 rounds. All of these are in the 1500-2000fps range, which is the sweet spot for my .308.

So, next session I would try to shoot only the gas checked bullets and see what happens. Keep track of round count as you go to see what the groups do.

If you were using a stick powder I'd also suggest to reduce the loads a bit. Go ahead and use the lubed cast bullet load data.

[Wild Bill 7]

Lyman cast bullet handbook third edition lists
54grain #225462gc with w748 powder 19.8 start(FPS 1902, cpu 21,600)
Max 26 (FPS 2697, cpu 32,000) using Remington cases and CCI primers.

[white eagle]

I am in a slump and do not now know what to do next.

I've made some [constant] 58 gr., 49-49-2 Pb-WW-Sn, RCBS 22-55-SP's, to be water quenched after PC, [variables] gas checked, PC'd with Smoke's OD Green, and sized to 0.225", and PC's some with Smoke's Bacon Grease, not sized, not gas checked, 0.226", and loaded STANDARD JACKETED LOADS (ladder loads) of Win 748 powder (23.5 grains ~ 2700 fps book velocity to 25.5 grains ~ 3100 fps) in 0.5 grain increments.

The first three sets of three, nine in each, cast rounds from a Handi-rifle Standard 1:12 twist barrel and a Bull 1:9 barrel found their respective targets and made "decent" but as yet unacceptable groups (best ~2.5 MOA @ 100 yds).

EVERYTHING thereafter DISAPPEARED. None of the next 6 rounds for either rifle (12 rounds and then some others) found any portion of the 24" x 36" white drawing sheet over cardboard backed target. Using 60 grain jacketed Nosler Partitions for double checking, the scopes on each rifle are still dead on the center of the sheet.

Did the cast projectiles disintegrate? At 10 yards, additional [constant] cast boolits over 25.0 grain Win 748 powder put a hurtin' on a 12" diameter (nearly dead) Sable Palm tree, blowing out its back side. Beyond that distance, IDK where the projectiles went.

If jacketed bullet powder loads (>2500 fps say) are too hot, and cast boolit manual loads (up to 1200 fps say) are cold for PC'd boolits, WHERE do we find published data for PC'd boolits?

Are we WILDCATTING here in the middle ground of 1200 fps to 2500 fps? Is there a resource for what has been tried, notwithstanding a specific barrel reacting independently, so reinventing the wheel isn't necessary?

like you sig line says
"If it was easy, anybody could do it."
just have to hit the correct combo

[Land Owner]

Capt Keith - Checked. NO LEAD in barrel visually (through bore scope) or evident on Bore Snake pulled through a half dozen times followed by a half dozen TIGHT dry patches then lubed. Burnt powder and was dirty. Clean now.

I revisited the 2004 Complete Reloading Manual for the .223 Remington (Complete 'o4)that includes Accurate, Hercules, Hodgdon, Hornady, IMR, Lyman, Nosler, RCBS, Scot, Sierra, Speer, and Winchester. The Complete...'o4 is a convenient resource along with my library of current Reloading Manuals including Lyman #4, Speer #14, Nosler #7, Hornady 9th Ed., and Hodgdon #27.

Here are some Complete 'o4 comparisons in 223 for Win 748:

Lyman '04, 55 gr., #2 alloy, mold 225646, gas checked ==>
25.0 gr. @ 2563 fps to 29.4C @ 3037 fps [Not kidding - as published]

RCBS '04, 57 gr., mold 22-055-FN, gas checked ==>
17.0 gr @ 1927 fps to 19.0 gr. @ 2136 fps

The mold Mfg. (similar but different boolit designation) published 17 to 19 grains and ~1900 to ~2100 fps. Lyman, a trusted cast resource, says 25.0 to 29.4C gr. and ~2600 to ~3000 fps.

My observations, 25 gr. and above is too hot, too fast, and too inaccurate. I will cool my jets, start over, discard the results that didn't find paper, thank heavens for those loads that did, but drop well below those levels for further testing.

OK. With PC, we're WILDCATTING. Ooh-ha-ha! I can extrapolate between 17.0 gr. @ 1927 fps and 26.0 gr. @ 2669 fps (ty: Wild Bill 7). Somewhere in that range there SHOULD be a few nodes of good, better, best accuracy.

[lesharris]

Use gas checks and slower speeds and then work up your loads. Been there done that.

[charlie b]

You're on the right track.

Were you ever on the Acushnet or Boutwell. Son was on them back in the mid-90's.

[Land Owner]

No charlie b, I was on the Burton Island (Hurtin' Burton), WAGB 283, out of Long Beach, back in '75.

[charlie b]

I kinda figured you were more my age :)

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[plainsman456]

Had a friend shoot some 80 grain cast powdercoated in a 25-45 Sharps rifle.

He shot some other reloads first then tried the powdercoated boolits.

The first hit the target in the same spot as the other ones but the other 4 did not make the trip to 100 yards.

Seems that heat was the problem with that test.

Since that time they have worked well.

He did tell me that he had shot the others without a break in between.

So maybe?

[garandsrus]

I have vaporized some cast bullets in a 22-250. They were very consistent. A small grey cloud appeared about 15 yards from the barrel after each shot.

[dogmower]

For .223, I use a 55 grain rcbs, pc and gc, over 18 grains of AA2230. This shoots well in a handi rifle, and also in an AR15. It cycles the bolt and is accurate enough to hit the center of a 9x13 inch steel target at 200 meters consistently. I think the problem you're having is because 1) too much velocity, and 2) no gas check.
Good luck.

[Land Owner]

There are dozens of powder choices in the reloading manuals for 223 caliber boolits. I have five of the listed powders. Though finite, the mind numbing possible variations (with dozens of powders) are in total more than I care to test.

So far, I have worked with two powders, Win 748 and Hi "Skor" 700X. Additional powder choices I have include Unique, SR-7625, and IMR 4227. Fast handgun powders do not fill a 223 case and contribute to other concerns.

If accuracy, and my patience, don't converge with the components and powders I have on hand, oh well! Jacketed bullets work well in these 223 caliber Handi-rifles and I have plenty of those.

Lead is cheap, and for me, 2000#'s of it was free as was 800#'s of WW's. Through the purchase of some cheap flea market and thrift store Tin, I'm set for life in making alloy.

Gas checks are currently an over-inflated waste of money. I bought a bunch years ago, but in doing that, those are not zero cost. As important as they are for increased velocity and a "lead free" bore, every one I shoot depletes inventory. Perhaps the purchase of a GC die and punch are in my future to convert in hand roof flashing sheet metal, but the "do I really want to do that" Jury is still out.

I have just started to PC and that is new to me. It should "get better" the more that I do. I remain tentative, but am hoping for a favorable outcome. I currently do not think PC is "better than sliced bread".

Perhaps I am toying with too many variables all at once - PC, powder, GC's, alloy, hardness, moon phase, add a few _____.

[Three44s]

Checks, powder and primers are all “precious” right now. I am not doing cast in .224 bores yet as I have only gone as small as .257” thus far but IMO, you either need to add checks, slow down a lot or get very creative on how to emulate having a check.

Three44s

[Conditor22]

I use PC's GC boolits and a harder alloy for 223 (quenching your boolits after you PC would help)

this came out of "one book/One caliber"

https://i.imgur.com/AjrwwUw.jpg

[Land Owner]

Yes I will PC, GC, and quench, thank you Conditor22. See post #16...

[sw282]

l have a Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook copyright 1973. On 223 section 4 molds are listed:
#225107@38gr
#225438@45gr
#225415@50gr
#225462@58gr
All were #2 alloy w/GC molds. Highest velocity listed w/50&58gr boolit molds was with 630 powder. 10gr MIN. 12.5gr MAX for both boolits. MAX velocity: 50gr boolit 2430fps@27,000CUP.
Max velovity: 58gr boolit 2285fps@29,400CUP.
#225415 is only mold listed in LYMAN@50 HANDBOOK. UNIQUE is only pdr listed in both handbooks.
1973 handbook
6.8gr UNIQUE 1900fps@20,400CUP.. MAX 9.5gr UNIQUE 2300fps@35,000CUP
LYMAN #50 is same data as 1973 handbook.
From #50LYMAN l would likely use IMR-4227 data because it has the lowest pressure @23,200CUP.
One interesting comparison between 2 Lyman Handbooks almost 50yrs apart is publishedweight. 1973 handbook lists #225415@50gr. Lyman#50 says 225415 now weighs 55GR. l suppose even boolit molds gain weight over the years. l know l did:-(