220 swift for deer

[white eagle]

In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

[Winger Ed.]

I'd be a little picky on which bullet to use, but it should do as well as, say a .243.

I don't know how all the state laws are, but I'd heard in years past some states had minimum caliber restrictions.

[memtb]

I’m certain it would work, and some states allow the use of .223 diameter bullets ......ours about 8 or so years ago with specific bullets have allowed the use of .223 Rem. for Deer/Antelope.

Personally, I’m against it, and feel the minimum should be .24 cal. But, that’s just my opinion, and should be viewed as such! memtb

[Texas by God]

I've killed enough deer with a .223 and 22-250 to say yes. Put that fast little bullet in the right spot and the deer will drop right there. Assuming such is legal in your state.

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[farmerjim]

I have an acquaintance who uses nothing other than a 22LR for deer. It is not legal down here. He says he has never lost one, and I have seen 2 of 10 points that he killed with the Ruger 10-22. 3 quick shots to the heart-lung area is better than buckshot.

The 220 swift should do fine. I use a 60 grain Nosler partition in my 22-250.

[white eagle]

I'd be a little picky on which bullet to use, but it should do as well as, say a .243.

I don't know how all the state laws are, but I'd heard in years past some states had minimum caliber restrictions.

round these part's it legal to use 22 cal for deer

[Goofy]

It will work given proper bullet and placement.

OTOH, just because one can climb Mount Everest walking backwards doesn’t mean it’s the best idea.

[white eagle]

sure but how many will do it

[Daekar]

I know someone who uses 220 Swift for headshots on whitetail. Antlers go flying and the meat is all in perfect condition. I wouldn't think less of anyone who did the same.

[Duke3026]

I’ve used the Nosler 60gr Partitions, and Hornady 60gr. SP. in 22-250. All shots have been placed behind the ear. I do prefer using the partitions. I do have plans on trying out the 70gr. Accu-bonds.

[dverna]

There are folks who need to prove something....or maybe they do not have a better option. I will leave it that.

I would have no issue with using a .220, but I know my abilities and my way of hunting.

[memtb]

We should start a post (battle) on the ethics of head shooting deer (animals)! memtb

[bluebird66]

Here in Virginia you can't use .22 caliber to hunt deer.

[M-Tecs]

It requires a little more discipline in shot placement but the .223, 22-250 and 220 will kill deer and Antelope like the Hammer of Thor with broadside lung shots with 55 grain soft points from personal experience.

In the mid 70's I was just a kid but I was friends with the local game warden. His deer rifle of choice was a 22-250 with 55 grain bullets soft points. I thought he was nuts since I read all the gun rags claiming how hard deer were to kill. After some actual experience I learned shot placement is paramount. Since 1972 I've averaged about 4 or 5 deer a season.

I have both native American and Eskimo friends that a quite proficient at killing moose, caribou and elk with 55 FMJ's out of 12 twist barrels in .223. They claim two or three quick shots to the lungs works great since the bullets tend to tumble. In one case the person uses the M16 he smuggled back for Nam.

Personally the only issues I have had with killing deer has been due to placement or using much heavy calibers with bullets designed for much heavier game.

During the 30's and 40's a friend of my Dad's would kill a deer a week to feed the family with 22 rimfire. He got a beating from the old man if you used more than one shot per deer. I asked him about it one time and he figures he killed over 500 with a 22 and he only got beat a couple of times.

[Norske]

The barrel's twist rate is all-important. I have a Ruger M77 whose original barrel had a 1 in 10" twist. I found the Speer semi-pointed 70 gr bullet accurate and very effective. I also know a number of men who used Hornady 55>60gr softpoints for deer hunting. Note: These were not V-Max bullets.

[farmbif]

it sure will do it with soft point bullet, my first deer ever was 275 lb taken with one Remington factory load out of a 22-250, exploded both lungs that old buck toppled after jolting less than 30 yards. if a 22-250 will do it there is no reason why 220 swift would not. as stated in previous posts shot placement is key.

[Markopolo]

i cant tell you how many deer I killed in montana with my old ruger 22-250.. very high velocity kills quite effectively. i once killed a large mulie about 175 yards away feeding with a doe. the deer fell over, kicked once, and was drt, the doe barely lifted her head and continued feeding with that dead deer. but there was no pass through, and the bullet exploded.

[444ttd]

i used a 22-250ai to kill a doe. shot her in the head at about 50+/- yards. i was using 75gr hornady a max. it was the only time i have ever done it and it will be the last.

[Texas by God]

As the youngest of five farm kids, at age 14 I could only afford one centerfire rifle. My mentor suggested the 22-250 because in North Texas we hunt varmints for 12 months a year and deer for two months. I’ve never regretted the decision, every single deer that I have shot with it was a one shot kill. I won’t use it for walking the thickets or “ money hunts”, or past 200 yards, but with 55 gr soft point on up( including the old Sisk copy 70 gr Speer)- it will do the job right now if you do the job. Now I have lots of rifles that are “ better” for deer, but the deer don’t die any deader. I only use head shots on sick cattle or trapped hogs ( with handguns) I’m not condemning those that do if they can be sure of the shot.

[white eagle]

What got me thinking about this,other than the 30 carbine post,was a book I read on the 220 Swift.
The author had no misgivings about using the 220 Swift on everything and he hunted in Africa with it
he has taken game far larger than whitetail I think he even took a Elephant with it. Just thought I would
see what other people's experiences have been with it.

[jaydub in wi]

I haven't taken any deer with a 22 centerline yet. I would think the swift would work better with a 1 in 8 twist barrel. The newer bullets that are designed for deer are all long and may not stabilize in a 1in 12 or 14 twist. I'm talking about Barnes TTSX, nosler accubond, swift scirrocco etc.
All that being said, I have a 1 in 8 twist 22-250 that I'm going to try 62 gr TTSX bullets in. Good hunting

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[quilbilly]

With all the wonderful new, heavier bullets, no doubt it will work fine with a well placed vitals shot. Many (many, many, many) years ago before the advent of all these new bullets, I got my second mule deer with a 222 but I reduced the velocity to get some expansion and eliminate the explosive nature of the high velocity bullets of that time. It worked well. If I were to consider using using either my 222's or 223's now for deer (not legal in my state), I would still tailor my load for an impact velocity of 2200-2400 fps with a projectile of 60 gr or heavier.

[M-Tecs]

What got me thinking about this,other than the 30 carbine post,was a book I read on the 220 Swift.
The author had no misgivings about using the 220 Swift on everything and he hunted in Africa with it
he has taken game far larger than whitetail I think he even took a Elephant with it. Just thought I would
see what other people's experiences have been with it.

Roy E. Weatherby was basically the father of sub-caliber high velocity cartridges for large game. He took a lot of heat for it. What is the book you are referring to? I am interested in what bullets are claimed to be used for elephant?

[jim147]

If you know what you can do I see no problem with it. If I hunted form a stand I know I can put a round from my .222 exactly where I aim. But I still hunt. So I carry something larger in case it is a running shot at distance. I'm getting to worn out to still hunt so I might go to my .222 this fall.

[white eagle]

The book is called," One mans passion for the 220 swift cartridge".
he actually shot Hippo and Crocks as well
check it out it is a good read

[M-Tecs]

The bool is called," One mans passion for the 220 swift cartridge".
he actually shot Hippo and Crocks as well
check it out it is a good read

Thanks for the info. It appears to be out of stock everywhere including eBay.

Did find this short article of interest.

https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/16/22-centerfire-vs-big-game/

[Mk42gunner]

I cannot count the number of whitetail deer I have seen shot and killed with a .22-250. Using factory loaded 55 grainers to handloads with anything from 52 gr match to 60 gr SP. It worked well for head/neck shots or lung shots. I would stay away from trying to break shoulders though.

I can't see a properly loaded .220 Swift being any different in the field. I would not try it with a reduced cast load.

Robert

[CLAYPOOL]

P.O. Ackley endorsed it in his writings.. I have shot several with 12 + 20 gauge slugs. They some times run and/or get up... Although you can see the the explosion out the other side...RAW HORSE POWER....

[Wilderness]

W.D.M.Bell wrote at least one article on shooting Scottish Red Deer (neck shots) with .220 Swift - American Rifleman, late 1940s.

[Prodigal Son]

I'm fond of the 22 Hornet 45 gr SP, right behind the ear! NOE 22 caliber at 40 grs. works too its GC too!

[GooseGestapo]

I’ve never owned or shot a .220Swift, but have a 1/14” twist .22-250. It’s a Remington M700 ADL. It’s the most accurate rifle I own. I’ve killed a dozen or so deer with it. Mostly with 60gr Hornady PtSpts, but also 55gr btspts, and 63gr Sierra SemiPts. I’ve taken three dozen or so with .22Hornets, .223’s also. Opening morning of ‘17, I took three does with three shots with my Marlin M1894 in .218Bee. 40gr Armscor JHP over 13.1gr H.Lil’Gun in reformed Starline .32-20 brass.
I’ve also taken about a half dozen does with the .22Hornet using a Lyman .225415 over 6.2gr of #2400.

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

I’ve lost more deer with either a .243 or .30/30 than any other cartridges. Simply because I “expect” them to do the job... sometimes they don’t. Things just happen. I flinch, the deer moves, or the wind gusts. I’m just more careful, sometimes.

[richhodg66]

Kansas legalized .22 Centerfires for deer a few years ago. All the naysayers, of which I was one, believed it to be a bad idea and expected all kinds of wounded deer, but I'm on public land a lot and haven't seen that.

I personally would use something with more bullet mass, but it'll surely do it with proper placement.

[missionary5155]

Never lived in a state where a .22 was legal for corn crunchers. Happily we have shot a pile of them using caliber .38 up through large round ball loads and they all only needed to be shot once.
Just hit the right and they die but I still prefer to ere on the side of bigger holes are better....

[Char-Gar]

In the "hayday" of the Swift, many thought it was just dandy for deer and even larger critters. I know several folks who hunted deer with them in the 50's. P.O. Ackley wrote of using the Swift to shoot feral donkeys.

[Shawlerbrook]

This topic seems to come up often on many sites. Yes, a 22 250 and many other small and fast calibers will kill a deer, but why when there are many better choices. I know most of us roll our own ammo, but when you buy ammo for 223, 22 250 etc. it generally says varmint ammo.

[white eagle]

its called broadening your horizons
why not is the question and as you see there are plenty
that think this is a better choice
who's choice is it we are supposed to follow?
Accurate it will handle everything from crows to bucks and beyond
whats not to like
btw who buys ammo?

[Lloyd Smale]

This topic seems to come up often on many sites. Yes, a 22 250 and many other small and fast calibers will kill a deer, but why when there are many better choices. I know most of us roll our own ammo, but when you buy ammo for 223, 22 250 etc. it generally says varmint ammo.

couldnt have said it better. Will it kill? Sure it will but why risk having an animal run off in pain.

[white eagle]

but its completely adequate to use a 30 carbine for the same deer?

[M-Tecs]

but its completely adequate to use a 30 carbine for the same deer?

Adequate is the key terminology. Yes the 30 carbine is adequate with the proper bullet properly placed at a reasonable distance. I have only killed one deer with a 30 carbine and one shot did the trick at about 40 yards broadside with good tracking conditions. Tracking was not needed.

I have killed several deer with a .223 and maybe a dozen with 22-250/220 swifts. An explosive bullet into the lungs basically liquifies the lungs when using the 22-250 or the 220 Swift and 55 grain soft points. Very deadly with a broadside shot or neck shot, however, I would not use it on anything other than broadside shots.

They only real challenging recovers I've had were with a 270, 338, and a 375 H&H Mag. I was using bullets designed for much larger game and expansion was minimal at best. Had I been using the Swift none of the would have went 30 yards. Not claiming the the Swift is a better deer cartridge under the right circumstances it is more than adequate.

[Murphy]

.22 centerfires utilizing 55 grain bullets have been legal for deer for 20 years or more in Oklahoma. For 90% plus of the deer taken in Oklahoma, a 220 Swift would have worked just fine.

Murphy

[dk17hmr]

I have killed several antelope with 22-250s. I started out with 80gr Amax which worked really well with a chest shot, I shot one for cross eyed with it which knocked her out but didn't make it to the brain and she took another round in the heart. I switched to 62gr Barnes TTSX at alot higher velocity. I shot one the very next year at almost exactly the same distance and placement, the barnes blew out the back of her skull and zipped across the desert.

I have no problem killing things with 22 calibers but I wouldn't let my kids use them on their first hunts.

I also shoot alot of my big game animals in the head. I don't suggest it but I do it pretty often.

[ChristopherO]

In the right hands, with the proper bullet I don't have much of a problem with the 22 CF's. My issue is the shooter and what they bring to the hunt that is the concern. We are all handloaders, or at least know what works best for the situation. I have a friend who is not a hunter but has an old 788 22-250. He was given permission years ago to cull a doe from the public garden and thought his rifle would be fine. When he shot the doe it ran off and didn't leave any trail he could decipher. He put the rifle away and decided to take a walk along the river to think and pray. He said he came upon the dead doe a long way from the garden patch, IIRC about 1/2 a mile or so. When I asked him what type of bullet was used he said a 40 grain factory load. I imagine a few fragments of bullet splatter made it to the lungs and the doe finally succumbed to blood loss. Yes, as they say, deer aren't armor plated, but the bullet/boolit still has to get inside to damage the vitals for a quick clean kill.

[kingrj]

A .220 Swift will kill a whitetail like lightning had struck it if hit broadside in the heart/lung area or in the head...The .243 Win that I use for longer range deer hunting will do just as well...However of the deer that I killed and have seen killed with a .243/6mm I have NEVER seen a complete pass through and when the deer did not fall right there (as most do with a good shot) there was NO blood trail. For this reason I am switching to a Barns TTX bullet for my .243 this year. The deer I killed last season was shot with a Hornady 95grain SST bullet at 3030 fps and it blew completely up after about 3" of penetration. I would suspect that the .220 Swift could do no better. Penetration and bullet construction are the limitations on all small bore rifles...

[barrabruce]

I used to know a bloke that would drop cows with his for a bush kill.
One to the head when it was munching grass straight on.
Always did the job just fine.
Just poll axed them.

So a deer would be a bit smaller I suppose.
I got caught up in p.o.ackleys books when I was young and the hydrostatic shock theory that blows major blood vessels well away from the bullet impact.
‘Corse a bullet has to be clipping a long pretty well before that happens.
I never understood the big free bore length thing. I understood it would lower the pressure somewhat.
Sort of counteracting stuffing a few extra grains in a case.
Never mind.

I know they turn crows into black mist a long way off and makes ones ears ring if fired from inside the cabin of a Ute.

[Pioneer2]

My dad shot a dozen or so Ontario WT's and 3 problem black bears with a .222 and my 55gr SP handloads.One round per customer most under 100 yards.

[green mountain boy]

i know of a wyoming grizzly that was shot with a 17 remington years ago. 1 shot was plenty.

[yeahbub]

The one time I've seen the .223 Rem used on a deer it was DRT. A 55gr to the side of the head and it was lights out. On closer examination, the bullet had entered the left side below the ear, turned right and exited the back of the head/neck, flying parallel to the neck and impacting again on the spine, leaving a nasty hole you could almost stuff a golf ball into. I had heard reports of the sometimes bizarre behavior of the 55gr FMJBT in Vietnam. This seem to bear that out.

[panhed65]

I have killed deer with the 222, 223 and 220 Swift here in Pa. for me its more about where you hit them than what you use. that said, normally I use either one of my .44 Mag carbines, or my favorite, the 35 Whelen.
Barry

[jaysouth]

Between 1920 and 1940, my grandfather and two of his brothers killed hundreds of deer with a .22 LR single shot and a flashlight. It took a deer a week to feed the three families.

[Budzilla 19]

2 deer, 2 rounds of 22-250 loaded with 64 grain soft points. Job completed, DRT. SO, that being said, I reckon a 220 Swift should do the trick also!! As said numerous times, shot placement is key. Just my opinions. Good luck to you.

[roverboy]

The Swift will work with a good shot placement. A guy I work with had one and killed several with it. Said he never lost one with it. But, the shots were placed well.

[white eagle]

It's funny I was on Shooters forum and the same question was raised about the 220 swift and deer hunting.
The post was from a few years back say around 2007 and there was 5 pages of mostly condemnation in the proposed use of this cartridge.Now here, although not the first choice for this round there is not the out rite abuse for even mentioning it. What changed? Do you think the advent of more capable 22 cal.bullets changed the perspective or what?

[centershot]

In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

White Eagle,
Yes! You are correct in saying that! For many years now, hunters just over the border, in Pennsylvania, have used their 22-250 varmint rifles for deer simply by switching bullets. Replace that 55 gr. SP with a Speer 70 gr. SP and you're killing deer quite effectively. Shortly after rifles became legal in my area of NY I started using Federal's excellent Fusion ammunition for deer. It has a 62 gr. bonded core SP at a chronographed 2960 fps from my Ruger American's 22" barrel, I swear to you, it is absolute death on whitetail deer! The 3rd deer I killed with it was a nice 6 point, angling uphill toward me at about 40 yds. That little 62 gr. bullet broke the upper left leg, angled through the chest breaking a rib going in AND going out, then exited the chest and broke the upper right leg and exited! You can't ask more of ANY bullet, let alone a .223 caliber bullet! He fell dead on the spot. I've gone on to kill a total of nine now with that bullet (It's the Speer 62 gr. Gold Dot) which I now handload over a charge of Hodgdon BLC-2 powder. There's no reason your Swift can't do the same thing, feed it a bonded core or partition bullet and put it in the boiler room, the deer'll die!

[Good Cheer]

The first gut pile I ever had to carry home for the dogs was from an uncle with his .222 Remington.
He thought it was just the cat's meow. No problems with deer getting away.

[44magLeo]

I have my own thoughts on a minimum bullet weight for deer. I think a minimum bullet weight should be 115 grs, Going 2800-3000 fps.
This is enough bullet weight to penetrate to the vitals from most any angle.Using this a 25 caliber is minimum.
At this weright and velocity most any C&C bullet or any of the monometals will work well.
Casr boolits should be a bit heavier mostly because of the lower velocity that can be achierved. A weight to exceed 150 grs. At whatever velocity you can get. Most any 30 caliber or lsarger fits in there.
If you want to try using less then learn the limitatiopns of the cartridge you use. If it can't kill well at 50 yards don't use a 150.
The lowly 22 romfire has killed almost every kind of animal on this planet. Even Elephants.
Is is capable of killing under certain conditions but it won't if you exceed it's capabilities.
Is a 220 Swift capable, yes. but can it break down an animal's shoulder or hips as it flees at 200 yards, I don't think so.
Use it within it's caopabilities and you will find it works well.
Here In New York A 22 caliber center fire is legal.
In my old Hornady manual for the late 70's talked about using the 22-250 as a deer suized game rifle. They said they developed thier 60 gr Hollow point specifically for this purpose.
In my early years I have used the 22-258 with that buult as well as Sieeria's 63 gr, and others 55 gr bullets. They all worked. It was the rifle I had and feeding the kids was important.
At the time shotguns were all that was legal. They killed but not as well my rifle. Didn't hurt the shoulder as much either.
Now I use my Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag for short range work inthe woods. My 250 Savage for things a bit farther out, for anything I think needs killing farther than that can reach I get out the 280 Rem.
I have a 223 bolt gun with a 12" twist and it shoots well but I won't shoot at deer with it. I have some other rifles I could shoot at deer with.
I do have other rifles I could use but have'nt yet. A 7mm Mauser and a 6.5 Creedmoor. The 7mm is a Mexican Muaser that I'm trying to reclaim after it was bubbasized. A continuing project.
The 6.5 makes such nise one hoile group is the paper. It almost gets boring.
Leo

[Texas by God]

There are some fancier bullets nowadays, but we've had the Hornady 60 gr hp, the Sierra 63gr smp, and the 70gr Speer semi Spitzer all along. An excellent little bullet that was discontinued decades ago was called the Nosler Zipedo- a solid base with little ridges around the bearing surface. All of these have produced DRT one shot kills from my various 22-250s over the years.
A friend swears by the Remington factory 55gr sp. He has an old 788 22-250 that all his children used on their first deer and his wife will only use that gun. All one shot kills on big bucks.
Less than 200 yards, perfect placement on stationary deer. No problem.

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[ChristopherO]

An excellent little bullet that was discontinued decades ago was called the Nosler Zipedo- a solid base with little ridges around the bearing surface. All of these have produced DRT one shot kills from my various 22-250s over the years.

TBG, I recently picked a box of those Nosler Zipedo's at a show. They fit in my 223 brass but the neck tension is not enough to hold them in place as all the other jacketed bullets do. Any suggestions on loading this bullet?

[smkummer]

The barrel's twist rate is all-important. I have a Ruger M77 whose original barrel had a 1 in 10" twist. I found the Speer semi-pointed 70 gr bullet accurate and very effective. I also know a number of men who used Hornady 55>60gr softpoints for deer hunting. Note: These were not V-Max bullets.
In the early 90’s, I had a coworker while working in Texas used his 22-250 for 4 or 5 small Texas dear. We loaded the Speer semi point 70 grain. I believe it was one shot kills and had pics of the deer. He was satisfied with the performance. I have a 22-250 but I also have a 270 ( 130 grain bullet for open range) and 35 Remington lever for thicker cover of which I would choose.

[Driver33]

I have put several deer in the freezer with my 22 hornet. As long as the nut behind the bolt does there part an there limitations you should have no problem

[Lloyd Smale]

I have put several deer in the freezer with my 22 hornet. As long as the nut behind the bolt does there part an there limitations you should have no problem

same could be said for a 22lr or a 25acp but it doesnt make them ethical choices for taking the life of an animal cleanly. I shoot alot of deer. I know that if you dont use proper equiptment its only a matter of time before your going to have it catch up to you. I detest tracking deer and even more so detest having a deer suffer because of my pride or stupidity. even shooting a 300 mag at long range a guy HAS to shoot carefully ;and put the bullet where he wants. Shoot a 100 deer with a 300 mag and dont consentrate on what your doing and rush a shot and your going to make mistakes. Now factor in a marginal caliber or gun and a bullet being off 4 inches that that 300 would still dump is now a wounded deer. If you tell me you dont make mistakes like that then either your a navy seal sniper, havent shot more then 50 deer or are just full of bs. Keep your squirrel and ground hog guns for what they were made for. Shooting a big game animal with a little gun IS NOT a measurement in your skill or experience. Its a measurement of your intelligence. Real comical thing is the same type will bash someone for using a 7mag or 300 mag on deer. DEAD RIGHT THERE is the goal for hunting. Not yup it died and im the best tracker in the county because i do it most every time i shoot a deer and get lots of practice. It doesnt even make sense to me why anyone would even want to try it unless its the ONLY gun you own and youd have to take a loan out to get one. No, unless your is such tough shape the bank wouldnt even give you that loan. I could care less about your buddy doing it or you doing it and thinking because you shot 2 deer its a killing machine. Or that its adequate on 80lb texas deer. Even then most likely your hearing about the lightning kills and those that ran off wounded were called misses or forgotten fast. On a site like this i wouldnt think something like this would even be discussed. Most of us are all about knowing the killing power of what we shoot. Bit more experienced then the average outdoors forum.

[white eagle]

personally have shot many many deer like you I have been on farms where deer are a real problem and shooting deer is the priority.I have made your 100 deer mark and then some.I thought this site was about discussion I missed the memo that came out against that.I also see that some people have such a limited view that they are willing to call other's irresponsible and intentional game cripplers for not shooting the guns they deem appropriate
Aren't you they same guy that said the mighty 30 carbine was more than adequate for deer,seems to me there is a huge double standard

[Lloyd Smale]

said that when i was young my first deer rifle was a 30 carbine and i did kill deer with it. When i was young and didnt know better and listened to what my dad said and to be truthful my dad wasnt one that gave a rip about a deer suffering. He was old school from a poor family and all he cared about was meat. Add to that where he put me you coulld find a shot longer then what a bow would take care of. Ive also shot deer with a 300 bo and to be honest feel that is far superior for taking deer then a 223 that shoots bullets made for ground hogs. Would i give even that to my grandkids to kill deer with? heck no! You have to remember one BIG thing. Just asking on the internet if a 223 is an adequate deer rifle shows immediately that you dont know and are not experienced.

Like i said too you might get away with it if your a real good shot and cool as a cucumber when shooting but shoot 20 and your going to have one that runs off wounded and good luck with finding a blood trail to track. I AM NOT YOUR DADDY. On here i can only give advice ive learned from actually killing MANY deer. Not advice that i got from someone who knows someone who knows someone in texas that thinks killing deer with the smallest possible gun is some badge of expertise or makes them a real man. You tell me what ADVANTAGE a 223 has over an 06 or even a 3030 or 243?? What makes your mind tick when you grab it from the safe when theres better guns there. What is your goal and reason? Sorry but i just dont understand. You want to kill with a 556 you should have raised your right hand. Uncle sam would have gladly abridged you.

I love shooting my ars. Probably more then any other gun. I also have 22 centerfire guns for varmint hunting. I KNOW they will kill. Like i said so will a 22lr. Doesnt mean if im heading to africa im taking one along to shoot kuda and wildebeest. Doesnt mean that if i KNOW i might run into the buck of a lifetime id sure be happy i took along a pipsqueek gun like a 223. I AM A GUN GUY. Like most on here. I have more experience with guns ballistics loading and killing then the average guy buying ammo at walmart. I dont have only one centerfire rifle i have guns I know are a proper fit for what im going to hunt. The pride you have should be in that knowlege and skill and that you know better. Not that your so good you can kill with wrist rocket!! But like I said im not your dad and as much as I respect my own hes sure the last one im going to for gun advice. He still brags on how many deer his dad killed with his 25-20 92 winchester.

When i was young i did what young man do and now im a man and-----------------------------. Remeber too like i said when your giving advice your giving it not to experts but to mostly inexperienced hunters. Id bet if we could take a poll of everyone here the average deer kill total would probably be around a half a dozen. You really going to tell people like that to grab a 223 when they might walk out on to a field that has the buck of a lifetime 300 yards across the way?? When the wind is blowing 20 mph and the deer isnt standing just right. You say youve killed a pile of deer. Id bet youve been in that situation. Its about like showing up at the indy 500 with a toyota corolla. Yup you can line it up but it sure is going to make you a loser in the end. Or building a house with a acre of pine trees and cross cut saw and a hammer and building that house just to prove your a better carpenter then me. Look at what the professional home builder brings to the site. THEY KNOW BETTER. Ill bow out of this one now because we can go round and round but truth be told ALMOST everyone here knows better.

[white eagle]

I have had run off's, like you said, with many different cals
last one was a 30-06 I have been hunting deer over 50 years I do know what it takes
the question was raised for discussion
can't take a new look at the way you do things like most set in their ways
good luck to ya

[centershot]

Clearly, some here have profound opinions regarding an appropriate caliber for deer hunting. So do I. I maintain that a 220 Swift, 22-250 or 223 is such a caliber. IF you load it with an appropriate bullet, and that is the key! Varmint bullets should not be used on deer, I think we all agree on that. But, load a Speer 62 gr. Gold Dot, or any other bonded-core bullet, or on of the partition bullets, now you've got something. Even the cup & core Speer 70 gr. soft point is an excellent deer bullet at 22-250 velocities. It's about the BULLET! All this banter about large caliber, small caliber, magnums or non-managnums is just that; Banter! Even with an '06, you need a good bullet, not a varmint bullet. And now someone will respond and say how many deer they've killed with their '06 using 110 gr. HP's......UGGHH!

The topic was about "Is the Swift a good deer cartridge", well, "YES, it is", when you load it properly. I'm not sorry if that offends someones sensitivities. If you're not responsible enough to pass on "iffy" shots, please get out of the woods!

[waksupi]

said that when i was young my first deer rifle was a 30 carbine and i did kill deer with it. When i was young and didnt know better and listened to what my dad said and to be truthful my dad wasnt one that gave a rip about a deer suffering. He was old school from a poor family and all he cared about was meat. Add to that where he put me you coulld find a shot longer then what a bow would take care of. Ive also shot deer with a 300 bo and to be honest feel that is far superior for taking deer then a 223 that shoots bullets made for ground hogs. Would i give even that to my grandkids to kill deer with? heck no! You have to remember one BIG thing. Just asking on the internet if a 223 is an adequate deer rifle shows immediately that you dont know and are not experienced.

Like i said too you might get away with it if your a real good shot and cool as a cucumber when shooting but shoot 20 and your going to have one that runs off wounded and good luck with finding a blood trail to track. I AM NOT YOUR DADDY. On here i can only give advice ive learned from actually killing MANY deer. Not advice that i got from someone who knows someone who knows someone in texas that thinks killing deer with the smallest possible gun is some badge of expertise or makes them a real man. You tell me what ADVANTAGE a 223 has over an 06 or even a 3030 or 243?? What makes your mind tick when you grab it from the safe when theres better guns there. What is your goal and reason? Sorry but i just dont understand. You want to kill with a 556 you should have raised your right hand. Uncle sam would have gladly abridged you.

I love shooting my ars. Probably more then any other gun. I also have 22 centerfire guns for varmint hunting. I KNOW they will kill. Like i said so will a 22lr. Doesnt mean if im heading to africa im taking one along to shoot kuda and wildebeest. Doesnt mean that if i KNOW i might run into the buck of a lifetime id sure be happy i took along a pipsqueek gun like a 223. I AM A GUN GUY. Like most on here. I have more experience with guns ballistics loading and killing then the average guy buying ammo at walmart. I dont have only one centerfire rifle i have guns I know are a proper fit for what im going to hunt. The pride you have should be in that knowlege and skill and that you know better. Not that your so good you can kill with wrist rocket!! But like I said im not your dad and as much as I respect my own hes sure the last one im going to for gun advice. He still brags on how many deer his dad killed with his 25-20 92 winchester.

When i was young i did what young man do and now im a man and-----------------------------. Remeber too like i said when your giving advice your giving it not to experts but to mostly inexperienced hunters. Id bet if we could take a poll of everyone here the average deer kill total would probably be around a half a dozen. You really going to tell people like that to grab a 223 when they might walk out on to a field that has the buck of a lifetime 300 yards across the way?? When the wind is blowing 20 mph and the deer isnt standing just right. You say youve killed a pile of deer. Id bet youve been in that situation. Its about like showing up at the indy 500 with a toyota corolla. Yup you can line it up but it sure is going to make you a loser in the end. Or building a house with a acre of pine trees and cross cut saw and a hammer and building that house just to prove your a better carpenter then me. Look at what the professional home builder brings to the site. THEY KNOW BETTER. Ill bow out of this one now because we can go round and round but truth be told ALMOST everyone here knows better.

The older we get, the smarter we get.

[Lloyd Smale]

The older we get, the smarter we get.

yes sir. its called REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. I remember probably 20 years ago sucking up casting knowledge from guys like felix and you that had MORE experience then me. Im glad i payed attention. Doesn't take but a keyboard today and an internet search to be a expert. Some just refuse to listen to someone thats been there and done that. Me? I still learn.

[white eagle]

In my research on the 220 swift for deer hunting I read from a author that
stated that under average hunting conditions if a 100 head of deer could be killed,by each,between the 220 swift and the 30-06 he thinks the 220 swift would come out the winner.
He also stated that there were failures with other high velocity cartridges as well but was clear in his respect for the swift as a hunting round of deer sized game
not bad for a lowly 22 cal ehh?

[barrabruce]

I have never even seen a real wild deer..

But over in New Zealand they culled many heards of deer with 222’s using choppers to haul them out.
Don’t know the kill ratio but is was like one to the head type shooting.
Just putting it out there.

[white eagle]

oh yeah the author was a guy named P.O Ackley
I know for a fact that he has more knowledge about firearms than some of the self proclaimed experts on this board

[OldBearHair]

Shot a coyote broadside at approx.100 yards with .222 Rem. with 50 grain Sierra bullet. Three "quarter" sized exit wounds two inches apart. The jacket separated and traveled under the skin to the hip. The insides of the coyote seemed to be a churned up mess. I can imagine what damage would be inside the ribs on a deer sized animal with the same bullet.

[centershot]

Shot a coyote broadside at approx.100 yards with .222 Rem. with 50 grain Sierra bullet. Three "quarter" sized exit wounds two inches apart. The jacket separated and traveled under the skin to the hip. The insides of the coyote seemed to be a churned up mess. I can imagine what damage would be inside the ribs on a deer sized animal with the same bullet.

Mmmmmm........That's what I'd expect from that load on a coyote, bang-dead! But, on a deer, personally, I wouldn't use that load unless it was a head shot or nothing. And I don't like to take head shots.

The key to success when using .22 centerfires on deer is to use the right bullet. The partition bullets, the Speer Gold Dots ant their 70 grain soft point have proven themselves for years to be entirely capable! You don't reload? Have a look at the Fusion ammunition line, it's loaded with the Gold Dot and has killed 7 deer for me! I now handload the Gold Dot over a charge of BLC-2 that creates 2980 fps from my .223 Rem. caliber Ruger American. I do not feel under gunned out to 200 yards! The Swift or the 22-250 can provide higher velocity and flatter trajectories, might be interesting to take one on an antelope hunt!?

[MT Gianni]

oh yeah the author was a guy named P.O Ackley
I know for a fact that he has more knowledge about firearms than some of the self proclaimed experts on this board

Parker love high velocity. If it were not for it's lack of range he would have recommended a wildcat 17 over the swift.

[centershot]

Parker love high velocity. If it were not for it's lack of range he would have recommended a wildcat 17 over the swift.

Wasn't he the man who machined bullets from solid brass rod to shoot elk with a .17 wildcat cartridge?

[OldBearHair]

Shot a coyote broadside at approx.100 yards with .222 Rem. with 50 grain Sierra bullet. Three "quarter" sized exit wounds two inches apart. The jacket separated and traveled under the skin to the hip. The insides of the coyote seemed to be a churned up mess. I can imagine what damage would be inside the ribs on a deer sized animal with the same bullet. I should have added that I wouldn't shoot a deer with a .222. I was thinking in the manner that the shot on a deer would probably be fatal, but might be after 3/4 to a mile or more away and maybe the next day or longer. I have seen and heard of deer being taken that had been shot in the jaw or nose, etc. caused by headshots. And yes those .222 loads were reloads and I will stick with the load for prairie dogs. The rifle shot less than MOA.

[GONRA]

GONRA recalls (I think) an olde (late 1950's) GUNS magazine article where the author made
solid brass Spitzer .224 bullets, loaded in his .220 Swift caliber huntin' rifle.
Blasted away at various woods beasties to test the "Nerve Shock Theory".....

Apparently you can shoot a Jack Rabbit thru the lungs and he'll just scratch the
entrance hole and go on nibbling yummy green stoffe. For a minute or so....

Shooting Bambi from behind was quite a different matter......

[Landshark9025]

Silly question for those who've used a very high velocity round like this: If this "went off like a bomb" in the chest cavity and "turned it's lungs into goo" or other such reports- was there a loss of meat due to it being bloodshot? Just as one can use too much gun and result in meat loss, I'm curious if the same can be said here.

[Tripplebeards]

yes sir. its called REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. I remember probably 20 years ago sucking up casting knowledge from guys like felix and you that had MORE experience then me. Im glad i payed attention. Doesn't take but a keyboard today and an internet search to be a expert. Some just refuse to listen to someone thats been there and done that. Me? I still learn.

Isn’t that the truth! I remember being a kid in and leaning how to bow hunt in the late 70’s/early 80’s. I put down the Atari controller and started asking people questions, reading books, and then the VCR came out to watch a few videos that were available to rent at the local gun shop! Unfortunately I lost a few deer due to no one ever teaching me corect shot placement. If it was not for this forum I would have quit casting before I started.

[LIMPINGJ]

Wouldn’t be my choice but to honest I’ve used my 222RemMag to kill deer and pigs. Notice is said kill as in going out to kill one for meat where I knew the range would be short and would wait for the shot I wanted to so as to not lose any meat. If hunting where the range and shot will be unknown I’ll take one of my 7mms or bigger.

[wmitty]

I’d like to go close to the other end of the spectrum for an example of bullet failure I experienced which “0pened my eyes”. Using a 700 REM 7 mag w/ 175 grain rem pointed sp core locks (sp) I called in a medium sized coyote while deer hunting in heavy n e Texas woods. Upon examination of the coyote I was amazed at the damage and went back and sat down thinking “wow, that heavy for caliber bullet sure opened up quickly!” I realized the trees were so thick I had an opportunity to find the impact location so I started searching the backs of trees for splinters which would indicate passage thru that tree. I soon realized there were no splintered trees. Somewhat perplexed, I began looking at the fronts of those trees immediately behind the place the unfortunate ‘dog had been standing. Stuck in the bark of an 8-10” elm was the jacket (no core) of Remington’s premier hunting “controlled expansion “ design bullet. It had exploded on a rather unimpressive coyote at roughly 2850 fps muzzle velocity. The shot was very close, probably no more than 30’. This incident caused me to ponder the wisdom of placing much faith in a standard cup and core bullet design if I ever had the opportunity to hunt big game. I have not taken deer with a .22 center fire, but after my experience with the 7 mm I would choose a bullet design capable of penetrating along with expansion.

[murf205]

I have read all the post with quite some interest but unless you have been giving deer Valium, the ones I have hunted for the last 55 yrs will NOT keep their head still to make a RELIABLE head shot at any range. They are constantly jerking their head up to sniff and survey the surroundings. Shoot 'em with whatever you want to because, probably, no one here is going to change your mind but a fine game animal like a deer of any kind deserves a quick demise and the gore of a head shot is NOT something you should ever display in pics. Hunters draw enough heat as it is.

[David2011]

Clearly, some here have profound opinions regarding an appropriate caliber for deer hunting. So do I. I maintain that a 220 Swift, 22-250 or 223 is such a caliber. IF you load it with an appropriate bullet, and that is the key! Varmint bullets should not be used on deer, I think we all agree on that. But, load a Speer 62 gr. Gold Dot, or any other bonded-core bullet, or on of the partition bullets, now you've got something. Even the cup & core Speer 70 gr. soft point is an excellent deer bullet at 22-250 velocities. It's about the BULLET! All this banter about large caliber, small caliber, magnums or non-managnums is just that; Banter! Even with an '06, you need a good bullet, not a varmint bullet. And now someone will respond and say how many deer they've killed with their '06 using 110 gr. HP's......UGGHH!

The topic was about "Is the Swift a good deer cartridge", well, "YES, it is", when you load it properly. I'm not sorry if that offends someones sensitivities. If you're not responsible enough to pass on "iffy" shots, please get out of the woods!

This is probably the best answer so far. There’s no substitute for choosing the correct bullet. A soft point that will penetrate deeply will work just fine on deer. Sure, shot placement is important but that’s true of all calibers. Personally, I would use a heavier bullet at a reduced velocity for the cartridge. My opinions are based on what I’ve learned from hunting with a .22-250 and one bad choice of shooting a big sow with a varmint bullet out of a .223.

I shot the sow in the head but the lightly jacketed bullet blew apart on the skull instead of getting to the brain. That’s the last time I shot at a hardened animal with a light bullet. The .22-250 with a 55 grain jacketed soft point had no trouble dropping a 120 pound or so pig with a single shoulder shot; no running. Penetration was enough to destroy the off-side shoulder joint.

[wallacem]

I killed 40 deer with my 22-250 using a 55gr soft point bullet, and never learned how to trail a deer till I changed calibers. It was amazing. Wallace in Ga

[white eagle]

I plan on using a 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullet
or Barnes 62 Gr Tipped Triple shock bullet
I have heavier bullets but the twist in my rifle can only handle this weight

[Duckdog]

Don't own one, but I have absolutely no doubt that it will put a deer on the ground if the shot is right. The earlier post was spot on with the 22LR. It will also dump a deer in short order if the shot is good. When times were tough, it had nothing about proving something, it was about putting meat on the table and the caliber really didn't matter much. pick your shot and enjoy the meat.

[Ramjet-SS]

In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

Like the hammer of Thor I have taken 6 deer with a 220 Swift using a Barnes x bullet. They drop hard and I have never had one get up. All shot angled away or broadside. Distances from 25 yards to 170 yards. Same effect on each one. Like any gun shot placement is key. But it’s very effective on whitetail deer. Internal damage in those deer was massive the lungs generally were mush. Shot through bone on two of them no issues on the light bones of whitetail using the Barnes X bullet.

[1hole]

In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

What I say is sure, it will work on deer, BUT, like with the puny little .30 Carbine, "Why?"

I live in the south western Smokies of N.C. I once knew an old mountain man who kept his family in national forest venison year round with a cheap bolt action .22 single shot using .22 short ammo because it was quiet. When he put that tiny bullet in a deer's ear hole it was as deadly as a .50 machine gun round. It was 100% effective - for him - but he used it as matter of necessity; he did NOT think his .22 short was a "deer cartridge!"

So, yeah, the Swift will do the job but we have much better deer cartridges and bullets than any .22.

[centershot]

So, yeah, the Swift will do the job but we have much better deer cartridges and bullets than any .22.

Those of us that use .22 centerfires for deer know this isn't true. My personal experience killing deer over 39 years tells me that my .223 Remington, loaded with Federal Fusion ammunition, is as capable as my 12 & 20 gauge slug guns, my 30-06, my 30-30, my 243 and several others I've hunted with. Notice that I said "My personal experience". As in, I went out and actually did it! If you haven't actually done it, you do not speak from experience, only opinion. Facts are what matter. The fact is, a properly loaded high speed .22 centerfire is a very capable round. Don't believe me? OK. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't stand up to the facts. I rest my case.

[M-Tecs]

Those of us that use .22 centerfires for deer know this isn't true. My personal experience killing deer over 39 years tells me that my .223 Remington, loaded with Federal Fusion ammunition, is as capable as my 12 & 20 gauge slug guns, my 30-06, my 30-30, my 243 and several others I've hunted with. Notice that I said "My personal experience". As in, I went out and actually did it! If you haven't actually done it, you do not speak from experience, only opinion. Facts are what matter. The fact is, a properly loaded high speed .22 centerfire is a very capable round. Don't believe me? OK. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't stand up to the facts. I rest my case.

Well stated. I have long since given up trying to convince people that are basing their opinions off of the writings of others or their lack of shooting ability. As a kid in the late 60's and thru the 70's I read every gun magazine published. I believed all of it. The more actual experience I gained the less and less I believed them as gospel. Figured out the goal was to sell product and not much more. At the time they were pushing the newer magnums. If you didn't have a magnum you were under gunned in their view. It was 180 degrees different from how the 6.5 Creedmoor is being pushed currently.

I used to party hunt in a large group and I have seen deer shot to pieces go an incredible distance. I have yet to see a deer double lunged that wasn't an easy recovery providing the bullets expanded.

The local game warden was the first to open my eyes. He used a 22-250 with 55 grain soft points and never lost any of the many deer he killed. I was with him when he killed a couple. I have also been told the 243 was the worst crippling round on the market. Actual experience in killing 50 or 60 deer with a 243 is that I never came close to losing a deer shot with it. Same for the couple of dozen killed with a .223, 22-250 or 220 swift. The only time I every came close to losing deer were due to poor shot placement or using a bullet designed for much heavier game. That was in a 270 Win, 338 Win and a 375 H&H. The poor shot placement was with a 30/06.

With a gun I have killed 200 plus and with a bow around 60. I lost one with the gun and one with the bow. Both due to poor shot placement and 100% my fault.

[Tripplebeards]

I would think a 60 grain partition would work great. Imo im guessing the hydrostatic shock from an extremely fast round along with a rapidly expanding bullet should drop an animal pretty quick ...if not on the spot.

[Texas by God]

I have a few 22-250 cartridges loaded with the 45 gr Barnes TSX @4000 fps. I've been meaning to try one of those on a deer. I expect no drama if and when I do. If I don't have a clean shot, I won't pull the trigger.
Same with every gun I hunt with.
The .224 TTH is an interesting deer cartridge thought up by guys that live to take trophy bucks. Basically a fast twist 22-257; I wanted one for a time- until one day it sunk in that the regular 22-250 had never failed me.....

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[358429]

What I say is sure, it will work on deer, BUT, like with the puny little .30 Carbine, "Why?"

I live in the south western Smokies of N.C. I once knew an old mountain man who kept his family in national forest venison year round with a cheap bolt action .22 single shot using .22 short ammo because it was quiet. When he put that tiny bullet in a deer's ear hole it was as deadly as a .50 machine gun round. It was 100% effective - for him - but he used it as matter of necessity; he did NOT think his .22 short was a "deer cartridge!"

So, yeah, the Swift will do the job but we have much better deer cartridges and bullets than any .22.22 short is a 29 grain bullet at 800-1100 feet per second muzzle velocity. 22-250, it's 3000 feet per second faster, with heavier bullets, is it not?

Those two cartridges are completely opposite as far as power level and effect, are concerned.

I suppose if you are an excellent marksman, skillful hunter, whitetail whisperer, then using a rifle ten times more powerful shouldn't present any problems!


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

There are folks who need to prove something....or maybe they do not have a better option. I will leave it that.

I would have no issue with using a .220, but I know my abilities and my way of hunting.

I agree. I dont think ive ever heard anyone on here saying the 30 carbine was a great deer rifle. Some like even me will tell it got it done under the right circumstances. If your asking if a 220 will kill a deer your asking a question you already know the answer to. Of course it will. Like others said LOTS of them have been put down with 22lr. Would I use one? Maybe for something like crop damage shooting where i have the option to wait for the perfect shot and if i dont get it i can just pass and wait for the next one.

Question really is if your hunting deer and have one tag for the year and the buck of a lifetime comes out at 300 yards are you capable of a head shot at that range? Would you not regret leaving your real deer rifle at home just so you can brag you are so talented you can kill deer with a straw and a spit ball. I know if that happens to me id sure hope i had a real deer rifle with me not a ground hog gun.

Only thing that would make me feel worse at that time then having to pass on that deer would be to put a tiny bullet in its gut and have it run off with no blood trail and suffer for hours laying in the swamp and getting ate by the coyotes. But yup it still will kill a deer. For the most part there smaller then a man and the 556 has killed a few of them even with ball bullets. but if you really dont know be careful taking advice. Most guys ive ran into and give the hammer of thor speech usually fail to tell you about those ones they wounded and never recovered.

Same with the 22lr cheerleaders. I kind of think of the 22lr thing like this. If i had to put down my dog who i love dearly and he had to be 50 yards away and i was given the choice between a 22lr and a 3006 to kill him you couldnt put a gun to my head and make me shoot him with a 22lr. I kill alot of deer. So many that some think its unethical but if anything through the years i have alot more feeling for the animal and the suffering i might make it suffer. Given a choice between blowing the whole front end to mush and having one shot with a pop gun run and have to track it and put it down but not ruining a scrap of meat ill that dead right there messed up one any day. But some dont care and thats there business.

[centershot]

Lloyd, go back and read post #87 again.

[Lloyd Smale]

read it and really dont agree. If you shoot 50 deer with a 223 and 50 with a 3006 you surely will see the 06 is much more capable. What 1hole said is absolute fact. If it kills as well as an o6 then why not use it on elk or moose. What i does is kill with very precises shots with no room for error and shoot enough of the even with perfect shots and a bullet will fail or a deer will get just far enough more away from you that you loose it. Aint my first rodeo. Ive shot hundreds of deer with about every caliber and have a pretty good grasp on how a deer reacts with differnt levels of power. If you dont agree with me fine. Come back and we will readdress it when youve shot 500 or more deer and can tell me you never lost one because of the pop gun you insist on championing.

Ive never once told myself in the field i wish i would have brought a smaller gun. I have said the opposite. I have to ask what you feel you need to prove. Is it your only gun? Is it the most powerful gun you have. I love my 22-250 its a tack driver and sents little animals flying in peices. But ive got a safe full of better deer rifles and see no sense in trying to shoot something with the smallest gun i can. I actually HAVE DONE IT and wasnt impressed. I wonder how many here bragging on them have only killed 10 or 15 deer and 90 percent of them in a farm field at 80 yards and get there opinion from that.

Even then if there was a way to prove it id bet my house if you shot even 15 with one youve lost one that ran off. You might have said "oh i missed" or walked up and didnt find a blood trail and then said "oh i missed" so you wouldnt have to admit to yourself your wrong. I am entitled to my opinion and ive killed enough to would have to say my opinion is legit. But all this said ill go back again to 1holes post. he summed it up real well with one word "WHY"

I can also tell you what the farmers son on the farm we crop damage uses. A 223 single shot h&r. I asked him why and you know what he said. WHen im in the tractor i only shoot the ones in the parts of the field i already harvested. Either it dumps them where they are or they run out of the field where i dont have to get down out of the tractor and bother with them. He just wants them dead. They take money out of his pocket. He said he used his 06 for a while but to many that did run didnt make 50 yards and were right where he wanted to harvest. Now ive shot somewhere close to a 1000 deer over the last 15 years out there. Hes probably killed three times that in his life. Come deer season when hes hunting trophy bucks he has his o6 and when he goes elk hunting he takes his 300 mag. Use what you want but this isnt my first rodeo. We will have to agree to disagree

[444ttd]

i shot a doe several years ago with my 22-250ai and i think 75gr hornady a max. the doe was about 50+/- yards from me and i put the hornady into its brain. it was my my only deer hunt with the the 22 cal. (sigh) i did it (sigh) and i ain't gonna do it again.

my dad thinks he kill a deer with the 30 carbine. the spot he hunts will only let him about 50 yards. so long range shooting isn't a factor. he shoots a deer in lungs/heart area(mostly behind the shoulder shot). he did kill deer with the 30-40 krag, 30-06, 7mm-08, 7 mauser and 7x30 waters. its a goal that he sets on himself to kill a deer using the 30 carbine.

150 yards is a goal i set on cast boolits on hunting deer. so far, it has werked fer me.

[M-Tecs]

Even then if there was a way to prove it id bet my house if you shot even 15 with one youve lost one that ran off. You might have said "oh i missed" or walked up and didnt find a blood trail and then said "oh i missed" so you wouldnt have to admit to yourself your wrong. I am entitled to my opinion and ive killed enough to would have to say my opinion is legit.

First not a single person on this thread is claiming the 220 Swift is the ideal deer caliber. They are pointing out that with a properly placed bullet of the proper design it can be quite effective.

Second if you are shooting at deer and missing completely you are taking shots beyond your ability. That is on you not the cartridge.

As to knowing if any ran off that is every easy to prove when you fire one shot and you recover one deer and yes every deer I have shot at with a 22 Cal. centerfire has been one shot one kill. When can I collect your house? Most between 200 and 300yards. That is part of shot selection and knowing your abilities. Also anything over a hundred yards you should hear the bullet impact.

I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion same as everyone else, however, you are not entitled to tell others that their actually experiences are not valid.

As to the why lots of reasons. Why do people archery hunt? or use a handgun? or a muzzle loader the current trend of the highpower air rifles? All of the are very effective if used properly. If not used properly that is on the user not the weapon. Personally after forty years of NRA HighPower competition shooting and avid prairie dog shooting I find shooting deer or other big game animals with a highpower rifle boring. I still find the rifle hunting enjoyable but when it comes to the shot if is a forgone conclusion as to the outcome before I pull the trigger.

In the 90's I wanted to kill a deer with ever major US Service cartridge rifle so I did. That was with a Trapdoor Springfield in 45/70, an 1898 Krag in 30/40, an M1 Carbine in 30 Carbine (had to borrow one since I have never owned one) and the 5.56 was with a real M16 with a selector block. Same as with the M-16 I used my Marksmanship team issue M-14 NM in 7,62x51. In 30/06 that includes a M1917, 1903, 1903A3 and M1 Garand. As to why cause I wanted too and I could. That would be the same reason I killed one with my original 1873 Winchester in 44/40. That was the same reason I killed two with a 1873 Colt in 45 Colt. Still want to take one with a 1903A4 one of these days. That would be a copy since I don't have an actual 1903A4.

Knowing your shootings or trailing limitations will eliminate losses. I am color blind and my trailing ability is only marginally better than Stevie Wonder so I select my shots with care.

I have had some very challenging recoveries due to using a 270 Win, 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H Mag with bullets designed for much heavier game and yes in each case had I been using my 22-250 or 220 Swift they would not have made it 20 yards after the ONE shot liquified their lungs. In the case of 4 x 4 muley the first shot was a double lung with a 270 Win loaded with 175 Bitterroot bullets at 220 yards. That was followed by two more in about a 5 inch group all double lungs with zero expansion. The deer went 3/4 of a mile but was too weak to cross the fence so I was able to catchup to it and end it with a 4th shot through the neck.

Those bullets had been given to me after I loaded some for a buddy going on a moose. I did not own a 270 at the time but after I purchased a nice pre-64 Model 70 in 270 I used them since I had them. That was the first deer I shot with the 270. After that I switched to deer appropriate bullet and had zero issues with the 270.

From 1970 through 2005 I hunted on 5 1/2 sections of very deer rich land. The land owner wanted every one shot off since he would have a couple hundred deer in his feed lot every winter. Normally he had 20 to 30 hunters. We would stand hunt in the morning and have deer drives after 10 am so I have seen a lot more deer shot than I have shot. The land owner required that you have a bonus tag or two so 50 plus deer were harvested on his land every year. A couple of years it was over 80. The land owner also required that you hunt the Friday opener and both Saturdays and Sundays of the season even if you filled your tags the first day. If you couldn't make it he had to tell him why.

In the evening everyone one would gather at the shop and have a couple of beers and tell the tails of the day. You got to look at everyone's deer and if the temps were right a lot of them got hung in the barn. Some with the hide on and some with no hide so you could easily look at shot placement and bullet performance.

The land owners out of state bother-in-law used a 300 Weatherby loaded with 125 grain Ballistic Tips at above book velocities. He didn't care for deer meat so he didn't care about the excessive destruction that combo did to a deer but that combo was the least shot placement sensitive combo I have ever seen. He shot at anything and everything he saw. Legally he could have two tags but he also had two for his wife and the one or two from the land owner. Worked for him but he was my definition of a slob hunter on his deer hunting methods but the same can be said for me when it comes to shooting coyotes. Hunting in cattle county you are expected to take any safe shot at a coyote and yes I have taken shots way beyond my ability to ensure a clean one shot one kills and I have missed many and wounded many coyotes with multitude of calibers.

A good friend has camera's in his calving pastures. He runs about 500 head and this spring he lost about $20,000 dollars on camera due to coyote killing calves so yes coyotes are not hunted with the same standards that I use for deer but that exemplifies shooting beyond your abilities to ensure a clean one shot kill is the primary cause of lost animals. Few would argue that a 220 Swift or a .243 is inadequate of coyotes yet I have lost a bunch of yotes with both yet I have never lost a deer with one. Only difference is shot selection. In the 70's and 80's I tried lots of different combo's to minimize pelt damage. Lost a bunch trying to use FMJ's. Yes, I take marginal and beyond marginal shots on yotes. I never take a marginal shot on big game unless is trying to anchor someone else's wound animal.

I don't count my using too tough a a bullet as bullet failure. I view that as a bullet selection failure and that is on me. I have only seen one actual bullet failure. That was with a 30/06 using 150 grain mid 50's vintage Herter's bullets. Three broadside chest hits and the bullet blew up on the surface. Only very small fragment made it into the lungs. It was raining hard and I was in the truck with the shooter/land owner.

After my dad had open heart surgery I loaded him some 125 grain Ballistic Tips at about 2,400 FPS for a low recoil load. He dropped a very nice buck out of the tree stand and it went straight down and appeared dead. As he was getting down from the stand it came around and took off. On inspection of where in went straight down we found he hit a piece of brush maybe 10 feet away from the deer. Maybe a heavier bullet would not have blown up but for that year dad needed a low recoil cartridge/load. This was just before dark and we trailed it until the batteries in the flashlights went dead. We did find it alive the next day and I was able to kill it the next day. The bullet blew on the brush and didn't penetrate the lung except for a couple of very small pieces that did not do enough damage to collapse it.

I have yet to see a deer with both lungs destroyed go any distance. I have seen deer with the bottom of their heart blown off go incredible distances.

[white eagle]

the last deer I shot (last season) left not one speck of blood for 40 yds
the only reason I found that deer was I had to follow its track
before I saw any blood, oh yeah the deer was shot with a 30-06
my farthest tracking job was over a mile and followed track in snow this time
a speck of blood here and there all the way, shot with a 54 cal round ball
so size makes no difference in my book and anyone who does not make a diligent effort
to make certain a shot has missed has no business hunting

[M-Tecs]

the last deer I shot (last season) left not one speck of blood for 40 yds
the only reason I found that deer was I had to follow its track
before I saw any blood, oh yeah the deer was shot with a 30-06
my farthest tracking job was over a mile and followed track in snow this time
a speck of blood here and there all the way, shot with a 54 cal round ball
so size makes no difference in my book and anyone who does not make a diligent effort
to make certain a shot has missed has no business hunting

Yup. Agreed 100%

My one lost deer with a gun was with a 30/06.

This part is not directed at you just my personal observations the two most crippling deer cartridges I have seen have been the 30/30 and the 30/06. Where I hunted lots of people used 30/30 for the heavy woods deer drives. Some of those 30/30's had not been sighted in since grandpa had it. The 30/06 was by far the most common in the area and used by lots of people that only pulled the trigger shooting at deer. That is the user not the caliber. It still comes down to proper shot selection and shot placement.

[Tripplebeards]

The ones that say 243 are inadequate for coyotes deer don't pick the right bullet for the job.
..along with poor shot placement.
A 70 grain ballistic tip will almost cut a coyote in half loaded at 3650 fps if bone is hit. I've only had 2 coyotes out of way over a 100 plus not drop in its tracks using that bullet. Both were do to poor shot placement. One I tried to head shoot straight on looking at me around 60 yards and hit a hair low. I had the zeroed around 250 or 300 yards. I blew the bottom jaw completely off. I tracked it a good 150 yards and finished it off. I also had one spinner I hit to far back. I finished it off on a full rotation. Those bullets make a mess! I havent pulled the trigger on a deer yet but might have to give it a try this year. From all the reading a 95 grain nosler ballistic tip is king for dropping them on the spot or close to it. I have 90 grain nosler ballistic tips already loaded that will have to do. I've DRTd many of coyotes with the 90s loaded around 3350fps out my 26" 700 243.

[1hole]

.... Notice that I said "My personal experience". As in, I went out and actually did it! If you haven't actually done it, you do not speak from experience, only opinion. Facts are what matter. The fact is, a properly loaded high speed .22 centerfire is a very capable round. Don't believe me? OK. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't stand up to the facts. I rest my case.

My first opinion of all that is ... well, you didn't read what I said, you just leaped to a conclusion of what you thought I was saying.

I did NOT say your Swift or my 22-250 won't kill deer, what I said is that I haven't done it and won't do it because I deer hunt in the real world, in the deep woods where there are leaves and twigs and even bigger stuff where scopes and dim light can make any shot iffy. And that makes using any high speed varmint bullet less effective than it could be with a heavier bullet. Like - high speed Cooper Minis will deflect off highway obstacles more than loaded concrete delivery trucks. (Okay, I haven't tried that for myself either but it is my strong opinion anyway. YMMV.) And I question how well a high speed .22 bullet will get past a glancing hit on a major leg bone.

I have taken a good number of deer with my .243. With the same hit, the end results duplicate what I get from my 7 mag, .308, .30-06 and .35 Rem. (and a few arrows too, but that's another story), but that's as small as I'm happy to go.

Bottom line, you may rest your case anywhere you feel comfortable but I think game deserves the most dependable rounds available.

So, sure, fast .22s are quite capable of killing deer like lightening under perfect conditions. Ditto the .22 rf. But we obviously have many much better hunting rounds for that so, other than an ego trip, what's the point of anyone using a ballistic midget on big game?

Snear and opine as you will but I, for one, do NOT consider any .22 round an ethical hunter's general use "deer cartridge." Seems most state game commissions agree with me.

[M-Tecs]

Snear and opine as you will but I, for one, do NOT consider any .22 round an ethical hunter's general use "deer cartridge." Seems most state game commissions agree with me.

Nope.

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/22s-for-deer-hunting/83742#:~:text=Today%2034%20of%2050%20states%20allo w.22%20centerfires%20for,up%2C%22%20while%20Nevada %20reads%20%22.22%20centerfires%20and%20up.%22

Today 34 of 50 states allow .22 centerfires for deer. Some of the remainder are "shotgun only" states, so that's a pretty good majority,

That includes North Carolina

https://www.westernwhitetail.com/22-centerfires-deer/

I swallowed the anti-.22 line once, but began to see the light when a South Dakota biologist told me his favorite antelope rifle was a .22-250 Remington “Kill’s ‘em deader than any .300 magnum I’ve ever seen. Does the same to deer,” he said. I’ve since taken a half-dozen pronghorns and whitetails with the .22-250 and concur with the biologist. .

Personally in the context of this discussion I view "ethics" as percentage of recovered animal. It's hard to argue that 100% recovery is unethical.

[centershot]

Thank you, M-Tecs!

[Lloyd Smale]

i wont argue that larger caliber can leave pitiful or no blood trail. Most of that though comes from people that think the more they spend on a bullet the better it will kill or still think a guy should use a 180 in an 06 like grandpa.

[Lloyd Smale]

First not a single person on this thread is claiming the 220 Swift is the ideal deer caliber. They are pointing out that with a properly placed bullet of the proper design it can be quite effective.

Second if you are shooting at deer and missing completely you are taking shots beyond your ability. That is on you not the cartridge.

As to knowing if any ran off that is every easy to prove when you fire one shot and you recover one deer and yes every deer I have shot at with a 22 Cal. centerfire has been one shot one kill. When can I collect your house? Most between 200 and 300yards. That is part of shot selection and knowing your abilities. Also anything over a hundred yards you should hear the bullet impact.

I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion same as everyone else, however, you are not entitled to tell others that their actually experiences are not valid.

As to the why lots of reasons. Why do people archery hunt? or use a handgun? or a muzzle loader the current trend of the highpower air rifles? All of the are very effective if used properly. If not used properly that is on the user not the weapon. Personally after forty years of NRA HighPower competition shooting and avid prairie dog shooting I find shooting deer or other big game animals with a highpower rifle boring. I still find the rifle hunting enjoyable but when it comes to the shot if is a forgone conclusion as to the outcome before I pull the trigger.

In the 90's I wanted to kill a deer with ever major US Service cartridge rifle so I did. That was with a Trapdoor Springfield in 45/70, an 1898 Krag in 30/40, an M1 Carbine in 30 Carbine (had to borrow one since I have never owned one) and the 5.56 was with a real M16 with a selector block. Same as with the M-16 I used my Marksmanship team issue M-14 NM in 7,62x51. In 30/06 that includes a M1917, 1903, 1903A3 and M1 Garand. As to why cause I wanted too and I could. That would be the same reason I killed one with my original 1873 Winchester in 44/40. That was the same reason I killed two with a 1873 Colt in 45 Colt. Still want to take one with a 1903A4 one of these days. That would be a copy since I don't have an actual 1903A4.

Knowing your shootings or trailing limitations will eliminate losses. I am color blind and my trailing ability is only marginally better than Stevie Wonder so I select my shots with care.

I have had some very challenging recoveries due to using a 270 Win, 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H Mag with bullets designed for much heavier game and yes in each case had I been using my 22-250 or 220 Swift they would not have made it 20 yards after the ONE shot liquified their lungs. In the case of 4 x 4 muley the first shot was a double lung with a 270 Win loaded with 175 Bitterroot bullets at 220 yards. That was followed by two more in about a 5 inch group all double lungs with zero expansion. The deer went 3/4 of a mile but was too weak to cross the fence so I was able to catchup to it and end it with a 4th shot through the neck.

Those bullets had been given to me after I loaded some for a buddy going on a moose. I did not own a 270 at the time but after I purchased a nice pre-64 Model 70 in 270 I used them since I had them. That was the first deer I shot with the 270. After that I switched to deer appropriate bullet and had zero issues with the 270.

From 1970 through 2005 I hunted on 5 1/2 sections of very deer rich land. The land owner wanted every one shot off since he would have a couple hundred deer in his feed lot every winter. Normally he had 20 to 30 hunters. We would stand hunt in the morning and have deer drives after 10 am so I have seen a lot more deer shot than I have shot. The land owner required that you have a bonus tag or two so 50 plus deer were harvested on his land every year. A couple of years it was over 80. The land owner also required that you hunt the Friday opener and both Saturdays and Sundays of the season even if you filled your tags the first day. If you couldn't make it he had to tell him why.

In the evening everyone one would gather at the shop and have a couple of beers and tell the tails of the day. You got to look at everyone's deer and if the temps were right a lot of them got hung in the barn. Some with the hide on and some with no hide so you could easily look at shot placement and bullet performance.

The land owners out of state bother-in-law used a 300 Weatherby loaded with 125 grain Ballistic Tips at above book velocities. He didn't care for deer meat so he didn't care about the excessive destruction that combo did to a deer but that combo was the least shot placement sensitive combo I have ever seen. He shot at anything and everything he saw. Legally he could have two tags but he also had two for his wife and the one or two from the land owner. Worked for him but he was my definition of a slob hunter on his deer hunting methods but the same can be said for me when it comes to shooting coyotes. Hunting in cattle county you are expected to take any safe shot at a coyote and yes I have taken shots way beyond my ability to ensure a clean one shot one kills and I have missed many and wounded many coyotes with multitude of calibers.

A good friend has camera's in his calving pastures. He runs about 500 head and this spring he lost about $20,000 dollars on camera due to coyote killing calves so yes coyotes are not hunted with the same standards that I use for deer but that exemplifies shooting beyond your abilities to ensure a clean one shot kill is the primary cause of lost animals. Few would argue that a 220 Swift or a .243 is inadequate of coyotes yet I have lost a bunch of yotes with both yet I have never lost a deer with one. Only difference is shot selection. In the 70's and 80's I tried lots of different combo's to minimize pelt damage. Lost a bunch trying to use FMJ's. Yes, I take marginal and beyond marginal shots on yotes. I never take a marginal shot on big game unless is trying to anchor someone else's wound animal.

I don't count my using too tough a a bullet as bullet failure. I view that as a bullet selection failure and that is on me. I have only seen one actual bullet failure. That was with a 30/06 using 150 grain mid 50's vintage Herter's bullets. Three broadside chest hits and the bullet blew up on the surface. Only very small fragment made it into the lungs. It was raining hard and I was in the truck with the shooter/land owner.

After my dad had open heart surgery I loaded him some 125 grain Ballistic Tips at about 2,400 FPS for a low recoil load. He dropped a very nice buck out of the tree stand and it went straight down and appeared dead. As he was getting down from the stand it came around and took off. On inspection of where in went straight down we found he hit a piece of brush maybe 10 feet away from the deer. Maybe a heavier bullet would not have blown up but for that year dad needed a low recoil cartridge/load. This was just before dark and we trailed it until the batteries in the flashlights went dead. We did find it alive the next day and I was able to kill it the next day. The bullet blew on the brush and didn't penetrate the lung except for a couple of very small pieces that did not do enough damage to collapse it.

I have yet to see a deer with both lungs destroyed go any distance. I have seen deer with the bottom of their heart blown off go incredible distances.

I stopped reading the post at this

I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

it shows the difference in you and I and the respect we have for the animals we harvest. Sounds like your buddy sure needs some practice if hes gut shooting at a 100 yards. Also i hope you had a tag because if you didnt you broke the law. Also were talking deer here. A good sized whitetail is twice the body weight of an antelope and a mule deer can go 3 times the size. Its like comparing a mule deer to an elk.

[M-Tecs]

I stopped reading the post at this

I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

it shows the difference in you and I and the respect we have for the animals we harvest. Sounds like your buddy sure needs some practice if hes gut shooting at a 100 yards. Also i hope you had a tag because if you didnt you broke the law. Also were talking deer here. A good sized whitetail is twice the body weight of an antelope and a mule deer can go 3 times the size. Its like comparing a mule deer to an elk.

Yes I broke the law in that case. I don't believe in letting an animal suffer if it can be avoided with coyotes being an exception for the stated reasons. That was in the 1980 when I was doing a lot of coyote hunting and while I would never take that shot at an unwounded deer or antelope I did shot at lot of coyotes well beyond my abilities so shooting a half speed hunched up gut shot Antelope moving across a cut oats field off the hood of the truck was not that challenging. My buddy was able to sneak within about a hundred yard and he was shooting off hand.

I did miss most of the running coyotes but did get enough to make it worthwhile since a good pelt would sell for $80. And yes I have wounded coyotes with lots of calibers including 30/06 and 338 Win Mag. That was the point of the post. Even small animals can be wounded with large calibers if the placement is poor.

As to my buddie he was my college roommate and your are correct he was not a very good shot at that time. His dad passed away when he was young and I mom didn't allow firearms in her house but she did give him his dad's Browning BAR and a Browning Citori when he turned 18. I took him trap shooting his time, I took him pheasant hunting his first time and his first big game hunt. That was the Antelope hunt. He got drawn I didn't. Later he developed into a good hunter but the reality is most hunters are not very good shots and most hunter tend to shot beyond their abilities.

As to MY respect for game animals I can HONESTLY state I have lost 1 out of about 60 with a bow. That was my first big game animal (deer) in 1970. I was 10 years old. With firearms and all big game animals the total is around 300 and I lost one in the 80's. It was a deer with 30/06. Found blood and hair but no deer.

Between rifle, handgun, muzzleloader and bow two lost game animals out of about 360 total fair chase animals. That does not include the cripples put of of their misery. Not perfect but better than most. What's your loss percentage?????????

Out of respect for the animals I have broken the law many times and with continue to do so. As a kid I worked at a gas station in a very rural area. The wrecker had a 22 rifle or a single shot shogun in it to dispatch road hit animals. Horse's and cattle were legal but not game animals, however, the local LE OK'ed putting game animals out of their suffering. That didn't change the fact it was against the law. Same for finding wounded animals. I put them out of the misery and yes it's against the law but I am willing to take that chance OUT OF RESCPECT for the animal. Last one was as road hit antelope in WY a few years back. It was crawling in the ditch with a broken back or two broken back legs. Nearest town was many 30 mile away. It was not season and of course I didn't have a tag and it was highly illegal but I did put it out of it's misery. It had a trophy class set of horns but they were left since that was the RIGHT thing to do. Too be 100% clear I respect limiting an animals suffering more than I respect the law..................

Unlike you I do read what you have posted and I will gladly compare MY respect to animals to YOURS any day of the week. Not reading before commenting does make a statement about yourself self and it's not a favorable one. Kind of the same for your projecting what others might be going.

[M-Tecs]

As to the animal size amongst my Inuit friends the .223 is very commonly used for seals, Caribou and Polar Bear. They do have a health respect of Grizzly /Brown bear and 30/06 through .338 come out for that.

I also have a medium level Celebrity friend that is native American. He has a very significant gun collection and he can afford anything he wants. He hunts Elk and Moose on the Res. off of horse back using the M-16 he carried in Viet Nam. He rides as close as he can and 2 or 3 quick shots into the lungs with 55 grain ball works well for him. By quick I am referring to a short burst. Not trying to make the case that it is right but that doesn't change the fact that lots of people do use 22 Cal for large game.

I have posted both of these many times on this forum but my father-in-law grew up 7 day's walk for a very small town in Alaska. He thought the 25-20 was the best moose rifle ever. He was 14 before he got to go to town. They had a 303 boltgun, a 25-20 lever, 22 single shot and a single shot 12 gauge. They would wait for a moose to feed in the garden and they would put a couple of 25-20 into the lungs. The moose would continue eating and they would watch till it started getting wobbly and they would chase it out of the garden so the gut pile was not in the garden. If they used the 303 the moose would run a long ways and they would have to hand carry the meat back so for them the 25-20 was their moose gun. He was not a gun guy and he didn't know if they have anything other than FMJ ball for the 303.

Friend of my dad's was tasked with shooting deer for the family table weekly in the late 20's, 30's and 40's with a 22 rimfire. He got a beating if he used more than 1 round per deer. He only got beat a couple of times. He never keep track but he figure he killed well over 500 deer with a 22 rimfire and he lost very few.

My Inuit friends that shoot polar bear with the .223 put one or two shots into the lungs and wait 10 or 15 minutes and drive their sled up to the bear and skin it.

The point is most of this is far from what sport hunters consider ethical but the Inuit's are mostly subsistence hunters and they do what works for them and they tend to use smaller calibers than sport hunter. It still mostly comes down to proper shot placement.

I have yet to see a challenging recovered animal that was not due to poor shot placement or bullets that didn't expand. Before the recovery most were claimed perfect hits. After skinning not so much.

[Lloyd Smale]

i watched the way they hunt with there 223s they take a boat and catch the animal in the water and drive right up to it and shoot it in the head. Hardly hunting and hardly a fair way to rate what is powerful enough for what your hunting. Just answer one question and we can end this.

What advantage is there to you grabbing a 223 when you have a more powerful gun thats proper for the job. Its kind of like trying to build a home with a jewelers hammer and a buck saw. Sure you could do it but theres proper tools for the job and most of us have them in our tool box. Because of ars i have more 223s then any other caliber. But i have at least a dozen good rifles for deer sized game. If you limit it to two hundred yards i could add a few more. I just dont get the "Im so good i can do it with a spitball or slingshot" train of thought.

Then to come on a fourm and brag on it where theres not shooters with little or no experience killing deer that would think by some of the posts here that they should go out and buy a 223 because it (like some said) kills like lightning. I really dont care what you hunt with. Thats your business. Dont care if you run them down on foot and jump on there backs and knife them. But you arent going to tell me that a 22 centerfire is a deer rifle. Its actually illegal in many states. Funny on here. Many experienced casters and loaders search for the ideal caliber and bullet to MAKE SURE they cleanly kill an animal. Very seldom recomending the absoulute smallest caliber and lightest bullet but will turn around in a post like this and claim if i cant kill a deer at 300 yards with a 22 i need to practice my shooting. Whats next someone saying there ruger lcp with cast lfns is a great deer hunting load which by the way WOULD kill a deer too if the stars aligned. Does that make it a good gun to grab on opening day when you have two 44 mags sitting in the safe. JUST COMMON SENSE. That is unless you have something to prove or want to brag to your buddys. Im out of this one. You do what you want. Me? Ill use the real world experience i have to do what i want and to recomend REAL deer hunting rifles and calibers when the question is asked by someone who needs REAL advice.

[ascast]

When the 22 Savage HP came out, it got a horrible rep as a deer rifle. Varmint bullets for broadside shots just left huge, not fatal wounds. Better bullets for task, shot placement and it's OK. Nothing new here. be safe, have fun

[1hole]

Well said Lloyd. And I'm out of it too.

[white eagle]

Agree M-Tecs
there are as many ways to hunt and kill as there are people
just because you don't like the way one person or group hunts
don't make it any better or worse than any other type or method of hunting
results are what matter up north their lives depend on it
it's not like here where its a sport it's survival and that is a whole different matter
like the man said leave me to my own devices it's my business and proper in my book

[M-Tecs]

Agree M-Tecs
there are as many ways to hunt and kill as there are people
just because you don't like the way one person or group hunts
don't make it any better or worse than any other type or method of hunting
results are what matter up north their lives depend on it
it's not like here where its a sport it's survival and that is a whole different matter
like the man said leave me to my own devices it's my business and proper in my book

Agreed yet for some it has to be their way one or no way. You simply asked
In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

Everyone that had ACTUAL experience with 220 Swift stated that on an unsuspecting whitetail with the proper shot placement and bullet it was effective. Nothing more.

No one claimed the 220 Swift is the end all be all deer cartridge or recommend it for an inexperienced hunter. One person repeatedly screams you must use the most effective cartridge period!!!!!! That would leave out the archer's, original older rifles and handgun hunters yet reality is all can be very effective used within their limitations. The 30-378 Weatherby and or the 300 Ultra Mag with lighter explosive bullets are proably the most effective deer killers in a shoulder fired firearm. They basically do the same to a deer that the 220 Swift does to a prairie dog. Very effective but very destructive. From actually witnessing what a 300 Weatherby loaded with the 125 Ballistic Tips at above book velocities does I want no part of that. The off quarter is gone and the distance the bloodshot meat extends is beyond wasteful.

Effective is effective. If you don't lose any deer with a 223, 220 Swift or a 30 Carbine it's not my place to tell you that you are your wrong or insinuate that you are a liar or a slob hunter for using a cartridge that has more limitation than some other cartridges. Unlike some I respect OTHERS experience and understand what works for some doesn't work for other. Like Dirty Harry said “A man’s gotta know his limitations”.

Kind of funny how some want you to respect their experience yet they will not return the favor.

Nor was it ever asked what cartridge you would recommend for a new shooter? The point of this thread and the subsequent answers was to address the OP question of a 220 Swift for deer and nothing more.

I also do find it interesting that a man that claims too shoot close to 70 deer a year with crop depredation permits is criticizing my Inuit friends for subsistence hunting. For the most part they are not sport hunting. They are doing the same as the farmer or ranch does when he slaughters a cow or a pig with a 22LR. Also the claim that all the hunting is out of a boat is not even remotely true.

I still do some centerfire rifle hunting but reality is a standing deer under 300 yards stands ZERO chance of surviving if I decide to pull the trigger with any of my so called effective cartridges. I much prefer archery, handguns, older original rifles or muzzleloader since the game does stand somewhat of a chance. I have been after the same archery buck for the past three years with no luck. With an "effective" rifle I could have taken him dozens of times. How sporting is that???????

For the next three rifle hunts I want take a deer with are my new 416 Rigby, a new to me Winchester 1885 manufactured in 1907 in 30 Army, and a Winchester 1885 manufactured in 1903/4 in 32-40. I also have a line on a Winchester 1885 original rebarreled to 225 Winchester. If I get it I will take a deer with it at some point.

A rancher friend of mine has been using his Win M70 in 225 Win. purchased new in 1964 for deer with great effectiveness on multiple deer per year since 1964 and yes he has many other rifles and calibers he can pick from but the only time they come out is when he goes moose or elk hunting. Never hunted deer with him but I have hunted coyotes with him and I don't ever remember him missing a standing coyote ever. I do remember being in his skinning shed drooling over some of the 180 class bucks he took with his .225 Win. These are ND river bottom bucks that fielded dressed will hit 250 pounds on an actual scale. I do respect his opinion and actual results greatly. He taught me to skin coyotes and a lot about coyote calling and hunting. Same for the local Game Warden that opened my eyes about the effectiveness of the 22-250 on deer with proper placement. At the time he was a National and North American PPC champion and he was about as handy with a rifle.