can you actually deflare without crushing front driving band?

[guy_with_boolits]

1911 45 acp

cast boolits (MP-452-200)

I'm seating and deflaring as separate steps

By deflare I mean taper crimp die but only enough to where it will headspace on case mouth in chamber

My question is..is it possible to deflare in this situation without slightly crushing the front driving band?

I mean I go to alot of trouble to make sure these bullets, after PC'ing and sizing, are .4525

Even a small amount of crushing will waste that

I notice the case wall is .009". So x2 = .018. + .4525 = .4705.

If the case wall is .0005" thicker, now my bullet gets crushed .001"

This seems like a very tight dance to play....is it even possible? Does it even matter? After all its the front driving band getting crushed by this deflare, not the rear driving band which does the gas seal.

This pic exemplifies what I'm talking about, you can see how the slight deflare crimp has crushed the front driving band enough to where its not touching the barrel.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhpcQLSL/20210421-100416.jpg

[onelight]

It does not matter to me , the base of the bullet is more important and I consider a crimp important , and it is going to size when it enters the barrel.
Unless your cases are exactly the same length the long ones will crimp more than the short or you will not remove all the flare and the short won't plunk . It's a compromise you probably can't see on paper .
You need enough crimp that they all plunk.

[Ed_Shot]

Agree with onelight, your cases are not all the same length. Your rounds actually headspace on the extractor not the case mouth.

[35remington]

It does not matter. Most of the bullet is unchanged. The bullet is still guided and still seals as it is supposed to.

The cases do not headspace on the extractor. Those with understanding of 1911’s in particular know this to be false. The extractor gap sees to it that it does not do this, and allows the case to be well clear of the breechface by design.

[Char-Gar]

The purpose of a taper crimp is to keep the case mouth from striking the feed ramp in the rounds trip from the magazine to the chamber. As others said, the headspace is controlled by the extractor. I know zero about those silly painted bullets, but setting the taper crimp is very easy and does not "crush" anything. Setting the taper crimp is very easy, and here is how to do it.

1. take a factory loaded 45 ACP round, place it in the ram and run it to the top of the press stroke.
2. Screw the taper crimp down on the loaded round unsinging only hand force.
3. Set the die lock ring and you are done.

[megasupermagnum]

Most of my pulled bullets show at least a tiny indent. All I do when I set my taper crimp dies is I measure somewhere down the case, say it measures .472". I then tighten the die in until it crimps so that I can pull my calipers up the case without it catching. The way you are doing it is correct. A taper crimp is not a crimp. Anything from straight sided, down to a tiny bit inward is acceptable.

More important is figuring out why your powder coating is failing.

[35remington]

Gents, do some relevant measuring and get back to me on whether the extractor headspaces. For those needing some guidance I’ll tell you where to look.

Nothing like finding out by doing it yourself.

Sorry for any drift.

[charlie b]

My purpose in crimping the bullet is to keep the bullet from moving during the trip from the magazine to the chamber. I've had some, mainly when I used lubed bullets, that would get shoved back in the case if not crimped a bit.

After setting the crimp die I check it with a plunk test. Remove the barrel from the pistol and drop the round in. It should chamber on the case mouth (not the extractor).

And, yes, that means the forward drive band under the crimp area would be sized down a little. Never affected accuracy.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Agree with onelight, your cases are not all the same length. Your rounds actually headspace on the extractor not the case mouth.

I think you need to look up headspace for simi autos. The case actually does headspace on the mouth of the case, that is why you only taper crimp. If they headspace on the extractor you would be replacing extractors all the time.

[44MAG#1]

Are you wondering about the cases headspacing or accuracy of the bullets because of being squeezed down slightly?

[JimB..]

So if I chamber a round in a 1911 with the extractor removed from the slide do have infinite headspace, no headspace, or a tear in the time-space continuum?

Yes, some guns will headspace on the extractor, but it just means that the extractor geometry is wrong, the cases are less than min length, or you’re way overcrimped.

[35remington]

He’s wondering about accuracy. We are causing thread drift trying to argue about extractor headspacing or lack thereof.

Even a fairly viciously overcrimped case or a plausibly short case won’t do so. All this requires is a knowledge of extractor/breechface gap tolerances and chamber/case dimensions.

What is not realized is a 1911 extractor lets a case get quite a long way from the breech before it can stop its forward movement.

Quite a long way. Well before then the chamber shoulder has stopped the cartridge, not the extractor.

[44MAG#1]

I, as a standard thing, crimp with a fairly heavy taper crimp. I know, I know, everyone will tell me I am wrong but I do it with results that please me.
And so it goes.

[charlie b]

FWIW, I used the maximum taper crimp on some of my .45acp rounds a while ago. They still head spaced properly and I could tell no difference in accuracy. FYI, I am not an olympic level shooter. 6" groups at 25yd is about as good as I can do.

[tja6435]

I, as a standard thing, crimp with a fairly heavy taper crimp. I know, I know, everyone will tell me I am wrong but I do it with results that please me.
And so it goes.

Same here, eliminates failure to feed in 9mm and .45 auto for me. Just flattening the bell isn’t near enough for my guns.

[mdi]

Yes, do it with all my semi-auto ammo...

Regarding head spacing and case length. I haven't measured any 45 ACP or 9mm cases in a very long time, but as I remember my mixed brass varied in length no more than .005" max., so not enough deflaring variation to matter at all. There are some that will measure the case and sort to +/- .002" and measure case mouths post crimping, again holding +/- .002". Good for them, it's their ammo, their guns and their time. For me (and the one competitor I knew that shot 45 ACP Bullseye) my targets show no improvement/reduction in group size, and I still get 99.99% feeding/firing/extraction...

[AZ Pete]

RE: heavy taper crimp....that is subjective. My experience is that if the taper crimp is "too heavy" with my 200 g. SWC's the exposed portion of the front driving band will be swaged up so as to prevent chambering. So for me, crimp just enough to pass the "plunk test", but not so much that you fail the "plunk test". Your dies, bullets and experience may vary.

Regarding the your concern about swaging the front driving band down... That may be academic, the best test is how they shoot.

[kayala]

More important is figuring out why your powder coating is failing.

That would be my first priority as well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Taper Crimp on a .45 ACP should be .468-.470. Don't you guys "Measure" this when you are setting up?

Why not? Are you just eyeballing it?

Randy

[guy_with_boolits]

The Taper Crimp on a .45 ACP should be .468-.470. Don't you guys "Measure" this when you are setting up?

Why not? Are you just eyeballing it?

Randy

Measuring the crimp diameter to a meaningful precision is difficult because its an angled ring only about 0.020" long. You can't use a micrometer so you are left with calipers and getting .001" with the blade edges on an angled thin ring seems like eyeballing / wishful thinking to me even though you are using a measuring tool.

I've resorted to setting up by adjusting the crimp die until the completed cartridge plunks in the actual barrel of the pistol and moves freely, then I turn in the crimp slightly more to account for case variances and press sloppiness.

I then plunk each completed round. This is not practical however since I'm learning anyway its good for me to see exactly how all my produced rounds are chambering.

I suppose the proper way to guarantee chambering is to use a factory crimp die which sizes the entire round to a guaranteed-will-plunk diameter.

However that doesn't seem like its going to work for cast boolits. I'm already expanding the case so they wont get crushed. Forcing them to be crushed after that makes no sense, so I'm left with a taper crimp to deflare. And in that case its very sensitive as described above.

So basically my setup for producing cast boolits is:

a) not progressive compatible as I've found COAL and deflaring (plunking) vary WILDLY from round to round if done on the load master, as the forces wobble everything around..we are talking .010" variances
b) not factory-crimp-die compatible since it will crush the boolit I went to all the trouble of not crushing by expanding the brass
c) requires me to use my APP and single stage presses with breech locks to do final boolit seating and deflaring as two separate operations

Now the situation with FMJ boolits would be different. I could use the FCD, and if I allow for some COAL variations, probably do the entire thing on the progressive load master as its supposed to be and live the dream...I will attempt that in the near future

So, let me make a statement and let the hive mind review it:

If you are:

a) expanding the case so the boolits dont get crushed

you therefore cannot logically

b) use the factory crimp die which crushes the entire case and the boolit

so you are forced to

c) taper crimp/deflare, which is only consistent enough to do on a single stage if you truly want it to be just a "deflare", and then only with brass thats relatively similar in length and wall thickness

EDIT: all the above assumes when using the FCD that the taper portion is screwed all the way out so that only the sizing ring is acting

[charlie b]

Yep, just eyeball.

It isn't a critical measurement for the 1911's that I have had.

[megasupermagnum]

The Taper Crimp on a .45 ACP should be .468-.470. Don't you guys "Measure" this when you are setting up?

Why not? Are you just eyeballing it?

Randy

I see this posted online a lot, and the idea is ludicrous. A taper crimp is as it sounds, a constant taper. So is it .470" right at the case mouth? What is the measurement if you are .005" back from the case mouth? How is one supposed to get the edge of both sides of the calibers JUST on the very edge of the case mouth? This is like saying an ice cream cone is supposed to be 1" around. Well every ice cream cone is 1" around at some point.

[44MAG#1]

I am sure these questions are asked with all good intentions but the center around the old saying "making a mountain out of a mole hill" type thing. Taper crimp to your liking or to what your gun or guns like, don't over think it and go out and shoot.
None of this is rocket science.
I heavy taper crimp for my 45 Autos now for a long time but at one time didn't. My ammo performs well, shoots well, in Kimbers and Glocks and I heavy taper crimp for my 10MM's and 40 S&W's. It solves problems for me.
I taper crimp heavily and don't worry about it and don't look back.
My ammo will outshoot me in my shooting.

[M-Tecs]

The Taper Crimp on a .45 ACP should be .468-.470. Don't you guys "Measure" this when you are setting up?

Why not? Are you just eyeballing it?

Randy

Same as Randy I've been setting my taper crimp dies to those numbers for function since 1974 when I purchased my first Gold Cup at 14 years old for the princely sum of $169.

Very easy to do with a mic. Just use your mic as a snap gauge. Start by setting it at .470". If the taper at the case mouth catches on the anvils you need more crimp. If the anvils contact on the taper past the case mouth adjust the mic to .468". If the case mouth doesn't catch the case mouth at the end and the anvils contacts the case on the angle past the mouth you have too much crimp. So simple even a self taught 14 year old can do it with a mic. borrowed from dad.

[megasupermagnum]

M-tecs, I just tried your method with no luck. I'd get one to kind of work, then the next one with no adjustments would not measure right.

[M-Tecs]

M-tecs, I just tried your method with no luck. I'd get one to kind of work, then the next one with no adjustments would not measure right.

Not sure what you are saying. Are you getting consistent or inconsistent results checking the same round? Or are you saying that the amount of crimp is inconstant from cartridge to cartridge?

Years ago I built myself one of these as pictured.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&insightstoken=bcid_SGOFFsJ7aagCBzGfbiY66R6YwFQ0... ..0Y*ccid_Y4UWwntp&form=ANCMS1&iss=SBIUPLOADGET&selectedindex=0&id=-1778630881&ccid=Y4UWwntp&exph=449&expw=600&vt=2&sim=11

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4672-measuring-the-taper-crimp

[onelight]

I don't remember ever measuring a crimp , I have always crimped by eye , feel and plunk test in a barrel or cylinder.
This has worked for me for 50 years .

[M-Tecs]

The amount of crimp can effect accuracy significantly if you are looking for competition level accuracy. It does vary by bullet type and weight. Light loads with lighter softer cast or swaged bullet may need more crimp for consistent ignition.

Some excellent info here:

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t15879-best-taper-crimp?highlight=taper+crimp+accuracy

"From the Guy (John Giles) that invented the Taper Crimp Die..."

https://starreloaders.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2602.0;attach=3383

[charlie b]

Yep, if you are an olympic quality shooter I can see it making a difference. Unfortunately I am no where near that level.

[onelight]

Interesting links M-Tecs , thanks for posting them.

[44MAG#1]

I can measure crimp with dial calipers. If I can do it anyone can.
That Giles guy was using a fixed axis test barrel to get his accuracy stats.
How many of us shoot well enough to tell small accuracy differences shooting offhand at 25 and 50 yards? Some may be able to do it, but very few.
Taper crimp heavily, cocktail your load and let your gun functioning and shooting be the judge. The functioning and the target will be the final arbiter in it all.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys: Nobody said Reloading was going to be easy.

The measurement across the case mouth is and has been the accepted method of Gauging amount of Crimp for as long as they've been doing Crimps. .40 S&W and 10MM are both .417-418 and this actually matters so you better figure out how to do it if you plan on loading these rounds. IT Ain't that hard!

I realize that most of you aren't machinists like some of us are, and I also realize that Many Machinists can't even get meaningful repeatable readings with Dial Calipers either, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try or can't learn how.

A Taper Crimp only engages the boolit a small amount and that is usually about .001-.003 per side. Any more and you haven't left any case mouth proud to headspace the Cartridge. And please don't chime in and say a 1911 headspaces on the Extractor cuz I'm only going to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Sure the extractor might hold the cartridge against the bolt face so that a short round will fire. But that has nothing to do with "Head Space," which is a specific distance between the chamber and the bolt face.

A perfect example of this is the Makarov Pistol which uses the 9x18 cartridge which is about .010 larger and .040 longer than the .380 ACP round and was designed specifically to be able to fire either one. If the shorter round is dropped into the chamber and slide closed it won't fire unless the gun is pointed up, if pointed down the cartridge slides forward and the firing pin doesn't hit it.. However if the round is stripped off the magazine, it is held against the bolt face by the extractor and will function perfectly. This was done so that
Russians could use German ammo in a pinch, but it wouldn't work the other way around. Once again this has nothing to do with headspace.

If your Taper Crimp is too strong your cartridge will still plunk just fine, and if it is too weak it might work as well. However if it is too weak you risk the chance of a boolit being shoved back into the case under recoil and that can cause problems. Not so much with .45 ACP but with .40 S&W or 10MM that both run above 35,000 psi a pressure spike could be a big problem. If it is too strong and the Extractor doesn't catch it as it is being fed then it will jam into the front of the chamber and probably not fire, But if it does you'll get a serious pressure spike.

I would suggest that all of you naysayers learn how to use your tools, instead of saying it is impossible to do. We have been doing it for along time and kind of know what we are talking about.

Here's a hot tip: You hold the cartridge in your left hand and your calipers in your right hand and then put the bottom edge of your calipers as close to the top edge of the case as you can. Wiggle your calipers around a little until you get the lowest reading where the calipers and the case are aligned as above. Try to get the same reading a few times to see if it repeats if it does then you have gotten a correct reading. If it doesn't, you did something wrong. :shock: Try again.

If you can't see well enough to do this then maybe a set of Opti Visors or maybe some decent glasses will help.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

It is easier to say "I can't do it" or saying "it can't be done" than trying to learn.

[charlie b]

I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't bother with it. FWIW, I was taught to measure by two master machinists so I could do it if I wanted to. I am merely a mechanical engineer. :)

I push the cartridge up in the sizer as far as it will go and it is done. Now, probably the die mfg is smarter than the average bloke (maybe he's a mechanical engineer :) ) and it is designed to apply that factory spec taper and no more. I do know it works and has done so for thousands of rounds.

[44MAG#1]

I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't bother with it. FWIW, I was taught to measure by two master machinists so I could do it if I wanted to. I am merely a mechanical engineer. :)

I push the cartridge up in the sizer as far as it will go and it is done. Now, probably the die mfg is smarter than the average bloke (maybe he's a mechanical engineer :) ) and it is designed to apply that factory spec taper and no more. I do know it works and has done so for thousands of rounds.

Good answer. You do what works for you. Just like we all should do.

[fredj338]

So if I chamber a round in a 1911 with the extractor removed from the slide do have infinite headspace, no headspace, or a tear in the time-space continuum?

Yes, some guns will headspace on the extractor, but it just means that the extractor geometry is wrong, the cases are less than min length, or you’re way overcrimped.


Not really. Even in a match grade 1911, there is enough tolerance that the exctractor is doing quite a bit of work. I have loaded & shot well over 100k rds in various 45acp. Case length can be all over the place. I just measured a handful of mixed; 0.886-0.893", never a feeding issue & I have never trimmed a service pistol case. I never measured crimp until I had loaded maybe 250k rds? Didn't even case gage until after that. It's isn't that precision of a process IMO, but some people love chasing numbers.

[M-Tecs]

I push the cartridge up in the sizer as far as it will go and it is done. Now, probably the die mfg is smarter than the average bloke (maybe he's a mechanical engineer :) ) and it is designed to apply that factory spec taper and no more. I do know it works and has done so for thousands of rounds.

What taper crimp seating die does not require adjustment to set the amount of crimp? Same for what taper crimp seating die is designed to be touching the shell holder? Every one I have ever seen will over crimp if adjusted in that manor.

Personally I have not used a combination seater crimper in a very long time. I use a separate crimp only die. That being said I have mentored a very large number of new reloaders that do use the combination seater crimper dies.

Also off the shelf dies adjustment instructions are written to used by the lowest common denominator that will provide functional ammunition with any and all commonly available combinations. Functional and optimal can be very different.

[onelight]

The Lee carbide factory crimp die is the only crimp die I am familiar with that the die body adjusts to touch the the shell holder . The carbide ring removes the case mouth flare . Then the crimp is adjusted with the top adjuster not the die body .
This is on the auto pistol die sets the revolver sets the carbide ring is not right enough to remove all the flare.

[charlie b]

....Functional and optimal can be very different.

That they are. And I choose functional over optimal in my pistols.

[35remington]

And....I can guarantee you an .886” length case will not come even close to headspacing on the extractor in any 1911. Stick it in the gun and see for yourself. Visually it will be very apparent it is not.

I can guarantee a match pistol is doing pretty much zero headspacing on an extractor.

It is all too common to get commentary on this issue from those with little understanding of the dimensional issues involved.

[1hole]

1911 45 acp cast boolits (MP-452-200)

If the case wall is .0005" thicker, now my bullet gets crushed .001"

This seems like a very tight dance to play....is it even possible? Does it even matter? After all its the front driving band getting crushed by this deflare, not the rear driving band which does the gas seal.

No.

If you want to avoid pinching the case mouth at all just seat so the case mouth is centered in the crimp groove. But, it isn't possible that a half thou of case mouth thickness (.001" total) is going to matter a bit in a factory round or a reload anyway, especially so with cast bullets.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Not really. Even in a match grade 1911, there is enough tolerance that the exctractor is doing quite a bit of work. I have loaded & shot well over 100k rds in various 45acp. Case length can be all over the place. I just measured a handful of mixed; 0.886-0.893", never a feeding issue & I have never trimmed a service pistol case. I never measured crimp until I had loaded maybe 250k rds? Didn't even case gage until after that. It's isn't that precision of a process IMO, but some people love chasing numbers.

The .45 ACP is about the least critical cartridge to reload there is. It is a low pressure round and there is a large amount of leeway as to seating depth crimp depth, OAL and any number of other factors. It is hard to get bit by this one

However rounds like the .40 S&W and 10MM are probably the most finicky of all cartridges to reload safely as they are both high pressure cartridges. The crimp matters with these and you need to pay attention to it as too little can cause a bullet to be pushed back in the case during recoil and that will cause a big problem.

You can do what you want, but not checking these factors when starting a run of reloads is just not good reloading practice. I have only loaded about 20,000 .45 ACP's and I do it on a Dillon 550B. The dies have been set for years and haven't changed, but I still check each time I start a run.

I am about to start a run of .40 S&W's and the dies haven't been set up completely yet. So I will be checking every round until I'm satisfied that everything is running correctly.

If you aren't checking your ammo you will get bit eventually. And even if you think you know how to use calipers I can assure you that you probably don't, and I know this because even after 40 years of doing it I still get bogus readings and scrap parts.

I was a Mechanic "First" then became a Machinist then evolved to ME. That helped me design things that actually work correctly, and can be made by others,,, like this.

Randy

[35remington]

The truth is....if case tension is adequate crimp doesn’t help much to hold the bullet in place.

If case tension is inadequate crimp doesn’t help much to hold the bullet in place.

If you doubt that, try seeing how well a taper crimp holds a bullet in an unsized case. A bit of Dacron will hold the bullet in the right location while this test is performed.

This is most particularly true with the more modest taper crimps most apply and with jacketed bullets.

[1hole]

Only heavy revolver loads with heavy (for caliber) bullets need heavy (roll) crimps to prevent recoil from pulling bullets and locking the cylinder.

Normal auto loader ammo is rarely loaded very hot, the bullets are rarely very heavy and the magazines prevent much bullet pull. Thus, a simple "taper crimp" to remove enough of the mouth flare to allow each cartridge to fully chamber is quite sufficient.

[gunther]

A couple of 45's haven't been considered; early Ruger NM 45 convertibles and S&W 25-2's, either of which can have .454 throats. In those cases, keeping the crimp die from sizing the as cast, or .454 sized bullet is pretty important. Thoughts, opinions, experience?

[charlie b]

The truth is....if case tension is adequate crimp doesn’t help much to hold the bullet in place.

If case tension is inadequate crimp doesn’t help much to hold the bullet in place.

If you doubt that, try seeing how well a taper crimp holds a bullet in an unsized case. A bit of Dacron will hold the bullet in the right location while this test is performed.

This is most particularly true with the more modest taper crimps most apply and with jacketed bullets.

When I first reloaded the .45acp I never used a taper crimp. Jacketed bullets, no flare on the case mouth. Worked fine.

Then I started casting. Pan lube. First the case had to be flared a bit for the bullet to enter. Seat the bullet and then would use the sizing die (RCBS, not carbide) to remove the flare (case entered die about 1/8"). Did this for a while and then noticed some erratic shots. Found out the bullets were moving in the magazine due to recoil. Some were being shoved into the case during the chambering process. That was the day I went out and bought a taper crimp die. After that no more trouble with bullets moving around.

So, yes, the taper crimp does work on cast bullets.

[35remington]

A vicious taper crimp will hold a cast bullet in place by digging a shelf into the bullet. I would still investigate case tension as a contributing factor as I also must lube cast bullets and do not suffer from slippage.

Thing is...most don’t taper crimp a bullet hard enough to help at all.

The problem with using a sizing die to deflare is the die sides are more cylindrical and will squeeze more of the case over the bullet likely loosening the friction fit. A problem induced by its use more than the cure provided by the taper crimp. Your expander size and case brand may be suspect.

I never had a bullet movement problem I could not fix with case grip alone in an autoloader and that remains true to this day. If case grip is loose fix that first, as case tension is always fixable via friction.

The invitation to try a taper crimped bullet in an unsized case still stands. For several good reasons good tight bullet fit is desirable in an autoloader and if you don’t have it a necessary feature is missing and the ammo should be better than that.

[dtknowles]

It seems nobody answered the OPs question about getting a crimp (deflare) without damaging the bullet. Maybe the answer was get a factory crimp die and it was left at that.

The picture of the OP's bullet looks like no coating on the bullet bearing surface. It seems it got rubbed off. Is that stuff building up in his barrel?

I think his bullets are oversize. He should slug his barrel and see if he should be using a smaller diameter bullet.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

I played around some more today with trying to measure crimp. I simply cannot get a measurement I would ever trust with a micrometer. I switched to my plain old calipers, and I feel like that is better tool, but I'm still not convinced. I set it to .470, and adjust my die in. There comes a point I think I feel it just slip over the edge, but when I set to .468", it feels pretty much the same. I then back the die out the tiniest bit, and now I can't measure with .468", but it doesn't really go in .470" either without it feeling like I'm pushing.

This seems like a lot of fiddling around for nothing. I could find no info in the Lyman manual. Lee die instructions for the 45 acp carbide factory crimp die recommend turning the knob in until it touches the case, then 1/2 turn more for a light crimp, or 1 full turn for a heavy crimp.

From what I've seen, it would be far more accurate to do it Lee's way. Find the crimp you like, say it is 1/2 turn past touching the case, and record that number. That is going to be more repeatable than trying to measure a taper with a caliper.

[35remington]

Given that ballpark is close enough, know that you are spending more time on this than needed.

The taper crimp primary role is to turn in the flare. Once that mission is accomplished you are good. Given slight variances in brass this is not something that needs to be nailed down to the nearest thou.

Better to crimp a little too much than not enough. .471” or less will get you there and you are.

[M-Tecs]

Some good discussion here. My background in 1911 is as a 1911 builder and competitor. That being said I am a better builder than competitor.

https://www.1911forum.com/threads/45-acp-to-crimp-or-not-to-crimp.987936/

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1874-reloading-45-acp

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418

Serious target shooters can be a fussy lot. They demand the most accurate guns and ammunition possible. Bullseye shooters- those shooters who participate in Bullseye matches- fall into this category because they need extreme accuracy to be competitive. Bullseye competitions place the targets at 25 and 50 yards. At 50 yards, the B-6 target 10-ring is 3.36 inches in diameter, and the X-ring is 1.695 inches in diameter. The handgun, the ammunition, and the shooter's skill must all be top level to place hits within these minuscule dimensions.

What type of accuracy is required to compete at the top level in this sport? A common benchmark is that the gun must be capable of a 10-shot group at 50 yards that is less than 1.5 inches center-to-center. A well-tuned .45 ACP Model 1911 can do that. But an accurate gun is only one part of the formula. The ammunition must be up to the task as well.

The following are the classification requirements. These events are shot single handed. Yes crimps do matter to some. Not so much for the 6" at 25 yard is good enough crowd.

https://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf

High Master .................................................. ......97.00 and above
Master .................................................. ..................95.00 to 96.99
Expert............................................ .........................90.00 to 94.99
Sharpshooter .................................................. ........85.00 to 89.99
Marksman .................................................. ...............Below 85.00

[charlie b]

Yep, at competition level things get a lot more picky.

That's how I am about my rifle loads (.308Win). I do things like weight sort cases, drill out flash holes, weight sort bullets to 0.1gn, control tension, crimp, check cartridge runout, etc. The cast bullets are also sized 4 times, nose and body size before and after powder coat. Cartridge overall length is also carefully set.

It pays off with groups that are ~MOA out to 300yd. A bit larger at 500yd.

Pistols? I am not that good. My pistols are, just not me, even with match grade ammo. So, I don't spend a lot of time fussing with it when reloading.

[DonHowe]

This ain't benchrest rifle!
I once (when a newby) thought it would be a good idea to trim .45acp cases to correct length. First, I never found a case as long as spec and second the amount of work was reason enough. I adopted an old Bullseye shooter ( I was a Bullseye shooter too) trick and set seating depth so the round headspaces on the bullet. I did realize that with variation in cases the taper crimped rounds were not all the same but short of a major amount of work uniformity cases or spend the bucks on a bulk order of brass (not possible thrn) I decided to concentrate on learning to shoot better.
When I peaked at 290/300 scores I was still shooting ammo loaded in old military brass that was more than once-fired when I got it. (toss when split or wouldn't grip bullet), my own cast H&G 68s and Bullseye powder. That ammo, with all it's flaws, from an accurate 1911 wS good for cleaned 50' gallery (quarter size 10 shot groups) and 25yd targets. Never cleaned a 50yd target but the gun and ammo demonstrated 10-ring capability.
The point of this rambling is that ammo flaws caused by irregular taper crimping are of little consequence compared to all the shooter-related variables present in pistol shooting. One or two handed.
Bullseye pistol seems an arcane sport these days but few pistol shooters aside from Master class Bullseye shooters (which I was not) can get ALL the accuracy from a good pistol at 25/50 yds that gun is capable of.

[44MAG#1]

Goes right back to what I have said now for a long time. The vast majority of handgun shooters are not good enough to be able to tell small differences in accuracy in benchrest shooting.
It is a whole different ballgame when one stands up and shoots. Even then an occasionally lucky group doesn't mean anything either. We all have shot lucky groups. It is what one can do over a period of time that determines how good someone is.
If I load 45 Auto today it will have a heavy taper crimp as I always do.

[onelight]

It seems nobody answered the OPs question about getting a crimp (deflare) without damaging the bullet. Maybe the answer was get a factory crimp die and it was left at that.

The picture of the OP's bullet looks like no coating on the bullet bearing surface. It seems it got rubbed off. Is that stuff building up in his barrel?

I think his bullets are oversize. He should slug his barrel and see if he should be using a smaller diameter bullet.

Tim
The factory crimp die for auto pistols in 45acp the carbide ring will remove all the flare it won't with the revolver FCD , also with the FCD for 45 auto it will taper crimp I also want a crimp and I have never had any over crimp from this die . I have had no problems from ammunition loaded with this die with 45acp . And I don't drop them all in a cartridge gauge I load and shoot.

I have no idea what group size they will shoot at 50 yards and I don't have the skill or guns that would shoot into 11/2 inches at 50 yards but I know they will shoot 5 shots on a 1 1/2" dot at 7yards off hand and under 3" at 25 off the bench on days that I can see good enough to shoot that far and my hands are working :) Good enough for me .
As Randy pointed out 45acp is the easiest auto pistol round to load . Low pressure , low velocity big enough to handle . Very forgiving with coated bullets if you get your bullet style , dies and seating depth all set to plunk .
I have nothing I could offer bullseye shooters I don't have the shooting skill , pistols or reloading knowledge to produce 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards with iron sights off a bench let alone off hand with one hand those guys are magic :) But I know what works for me the way I shoot and load and that is my version of WW white box I may not win any match's but I sure have a good time.

[guy_with_boolits]

It seems nobody answered the OPs question about getting a crimp (deflare) without damaging the bullet. Maybe the answer was get a factory crimp die and it was left at that.

The picture of the OP's bullet looks like no coating on the bullet bearing surface. It seems it got rubbed off. Is that stuff building up in his barrel?

I think his bullets are oversize. He should slug his barrel and see if he should be using a smaller diameter bullet.

Tim

I dont think the boolits are oversized..I actually think they could use a slight increase in diameter. They are sized to .4525 and that pictured boolit measures 0.452.

I'm not sure why the PC is coming off, or how much might be left in the barrel. This latest batch I have yet to test more than a couple rounds, but I made about 50. I'll be doing some detailed testing of them and will try to get some answers. Edit: The PC is from Smokes and is baked at 400F for 20mins on boolits that I have no reason to believe are anything but perfectly clean. They are then water dropped and sized.

The factory crimp die would seem to be even worse for this issue, crushing everything including the rear driving band, no?

[44MAG#1]

Just get an RCBS taper crimp die and have at it. Crimp fairly hard and go out and shoot.
Simple to do. Not head scratching difficult.

[35remington]

Whether the FCD affects the bearing surface of the rest of the bullet depends on the brass thickness used and the diameter of the bullet that passes through the dies as well as whether the sizing ring is on the large or small side of the tolerance.

In some instances the FCD will not size the entire bearing surface while the bullet is in the case. In other instances it will. Blanket answers to the question are inaccurate except to say larger bullets and slightly thicker brass and a sizing ring with a smaller interior diameter make it more likely.

Hopefully tolerances do not treat you unfavorably.

Of course a standard taper crimp die has no chance of affecting the diameter of the full bearing surface of the bullet.

A cartridge gauge is more effective than a FCD in weeding out non functional ammo, which is why I use one, or the chamber of the gun in question.

[onelight]

Weather the factory crimp die post sizes or not (not sure where the crushed term came from ) depends on the diameter of the bullet you actually need . If you want to know what bullet diameter is after loading and crimping pull a couple and see what they measure . Slug your barrel and see what it measures you should not need much larger than bore diameter to .002 over in any of the 45acp I have loaded for.
Today I shot with a buddy that has a RIA and a sig 1911 and I shoot often with guys with colt , Tarus , and Remington 1911s all of those shoot well with .452 coated bullets as do my Sig 220 my CZ97 my Springfield XDE , XDS , a Kimber 1911 and a springfield 1911 none of these lead with .452 coated bullets and yup all loaded with the Lee FCD . If you need larger get another standard crimp die and see if it helps . But looking at your bullet something else is going on.
I don't think a taper crimp is removing the powder coat.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I played around some more today with trying to measure crimp. I simply cannot get a measurement I would ever trust with a micrometer. I switched to my plain old calipers, and I feel like that is better tool, but I'm still not convinced. I set it to .470, and adjust my die in. There comes a point I think I feel it just slip over the edge, but when I set to .468", it feels pretty much the same. I then back the die out the tiniest bit, and now I can't measure with .468", but it doesn't really go in .470" either without it feeling like I'm pushing.

This seems like a lot of fiddling around for nothing. I could find no info in the Lyman manual. Lee die instructions for the 45 acp carbide factory crimp die recommend turning the knob in until it touches the case, then 1/2 turn more for a light crimp, or 1 full turn for a heavy crimp.

From what I've seen, it would be far more accurate to do it Lee's way. Find the crimp you like, say it is 1/2 turn past touching the case, and record that number. That is going to be more repeatable than trying to measure a taper with a caliper.

Mega: I never said this is easy to do, however you don't set the caliper at the "Predetermined Dimension," You close it down and see what you get. You do need magnifiers on to see what you are doing. You also need to make sure the Caliper is Perpendicular to teh thing you are measuring . Typically that is done by wiggling it until you get the lowest reading that is consistent.

Like I said, I have to do this several times in order to get a repeatable reading. Measuring once with Calipers is not going to get you where you need to go, and I have a scrap pile in my shop to prove it. You need to get a reading that repeats several times in a row. Not every other time !!! and not two out of three.

Luckily the .45 ACP is not Super Critical, however other cartridges are. You can practice your measuring on easier things, then you'll be more confident when it counts.

Really it ain't that hard. If others can do it so can you, just takes some practice.

Also Dial Calipers are easier to use than Digital ones, because you can see the needle moving back and forth. Trying to get a Digital Readout to do this can be very frustrating.

Randy

[35remington]

Let’s hope we need equivalent to groove diameter for our bullet or not more than 0.002” over that.

A bullet that is bore diameter or not more than 0.002” over bore diameter would be hopelessly inaccurate.

Please pardon my terminology Nazism but for some reason it is very trendy to say bore diameter when we mean groove diameter. I see that lots of places including other forums.

I’m guessing because “bore” sounds cooler. Again, pardon my terminology Nazism but bore diameter and groove diameter have distinctly different meanings and are different parts of the barrel interior. Apologies for the Webster diversion.

[onelight]

Your absolutely right I should have said grove diameter . Not trying to be " cool " to old and practical for that.

[35remington]

I readily admit I am speculating about why people do it. Just puzzled as to why it is common.

[44MAG#1]

ORIGINAL POSTER save all the drama, get an RCBS Taper Crimp die and FIRMLY taper crimp your ammo. Go out and shoot and have fun. If you ammo functions well and shoots well, forget the minutia.

[alamogunr]

I almost wish I had never found this thread. I was happy loading cast in .45 ACP on the Dillon 550. My procedure was to set every thing up prior to the 4th station(crimp) so that OAL was per the load data for the boolit I was using(usually H&G 68 type). The crimp die was screwed down until the round fit a "Maximum Cartridge Gauge" that I bought from Midway way back when they sent out a circular every month. The set has 5 gauges, .41 mag, .44 mag, .45 Colt, 9mm and .45 ACP. The only two I've ever used are the 9mm & .45 ACP. The other cartridges I just measure case OAL with a caliper.

After assuring that the loaded round fits the gauge, I make sure it will "plunk" in the barrel of the gun I'm loading for. Or, all if these are to be inventory rounds for use with any .45 ACP. That is rare. Usually I'll do a couple of 1911's and quit there.

I might measure the crimp to see if it is close to .470 or maybe less. If it is more, I might give the die a slight turn down.

I can also assure you that my shooting skill won't show me a difference in the crimp measurement. I've gotten too shaky to depend on shooting to determine the accuracy of either loads or guns. Wish I had gotten into this game a lot earlier.

EDIT! I should have mentioned that I depend on the size die to give me sufficient tension on the loaded boolit to keep it in place in the magazine while shooting.

[44MAG#1]

Sometimes threads make one wish they had never clicked on them.
To find out they have been it doing all wrong for years according to the "EXPERTS". Even though one has been getting good results for years doing what they are doing.
Make one wonder doesn't it?

[M-Tecs]

Sometimes threads make one wish they had never clicked on them.
To find out they have been it doing all wrong for years according to the "EXPERTS". Even though one has been getting good results for years doing what they are doing.
Make one wonder doesn't it?

So where did ANYONE on this thread stated you are doing it wrong????????


The amount of crimp can effect accuracy significantly if you are looking for competition level accuracy. It does vary by bullet type and weight. Light loads with lighter softer cast or swaged bullet may need more crimp for consistent ignition.

Some excellent info here:

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t15879-best-taper-crimp?highlight=taper+crimp+accuracy

"From the Guy (John Giles) that invented the Taper Crimp Die..."

https://starreloaders.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2602.0;attach=3383

If you are happy with your results great. On the other hand some might be interested in the techniques that some of the best shooters in the world are using to achieve their results. Some might even find helpful to improve their own results. Some may not be interested in possible improvement. That is their choice.

Personally I like learning and self improvement.

[44MAG#1]

I used to have a shooting buddy that was a High Master class NRA Bullseye shooter. He loaded on a progressive loader, taper crimped pretty stout and used Bullseye and a H&G #68 or a close copy there of. He just knew how to shoot which is the key in reality.
Implication of being wrong probably would have been a better term.

[alamogunr]

So where did ANYONE on this thread stated you are doing it wrong????????



If you are happy with your results great. On the other hand some might be interested in the techniques that some of the best shooters in the world are using to achieve their results. Some might even find helpful to improve there own results.

M-Tecs, I don't disagree at all with your post. I found the link to John Giles letter interesting. I know very little about the history of reloading aside from the sometimes fanciful stories about buffalo hunters reloading by firelight each night.

I do have multiple sets of dies for several cartridges that I bought in order to have a separate crimp die. I hated spending an inordinate amount of time trying to adjust the seat/crimp die. When I got the Dillon 550 I realized that there was a relatively easy, inexpensive way around that problem. The Redding T-7 just made it easier.

[M-Tecs]

When you fully understand the effects of each operation or component change you can make an educated decision on if it's important to your end goals or not. When I load for 1,000 yard F-Class I use different components and techiquice than I do for my cowboy action loads.

My cowboy action loads only need to function since accuracy requirements are also zero. Mostly use reject bullets and brass that's on it last legs for cowboy action. For cowboy action 6" at 25 yards is more than adequate. For 50 yard Bullseye pistol or 1,000 yard F-Class not so much.

Frankly I do not understand not wanting to learn but each to their own.

[44MAG#1]

"Frankly I do not understand not wanting to learn but each to their own."

We all have our own ways.

[M-Tecs]

I used to have a shooting buddy that was a High Master class NRA Bullseye shooter. He loaded on a progressive loader, taper crimped pretty stout and used Bullseye and a H&G #68 or a close copy there of. He just knew how to shoot which is the key in reality.
Implication of being wrong probably would have been a better term.

I load all my long range competition ammunition on a Dillon Super 1050. I normally don't start weighting charges until 600 yard plus loads. With proper technique 3/8" MOA is easily achievable. With improper technique 1 1/2 to 2 MOA will be the end result.

[alamogunr]

Are my posts being interpreted as me not wanting to learn?

[M-Tecs]

Are my posts being interpreted as me not wanting to learn?

Nope I read your post as stating you read about some different techniques that may or may not be something you want to try. I very much appreciated your posts. That is the definition of learning and that is why most folks are on this forum IMHO. in some cases learning is learning what not to do.

While I did not I am not so sure about this one???


Sometimes threads make one wish they had never clicked on them.
To find out they have been it doing all wrong for years according to the "EXPERTS". Even though one has been getting good results for years doing what they are doing.
Make one wonder doesn't it?

[44MAG#1]

I'll relate a little experiment my buddy and I did one time using his Ransom Rest. And my Bullseye set up 45 Auto. We could have used his Clark Long Slide but didn't. I loaded five rounds each on my Dillon with 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1 grains of Bulleye with CCI 300's, same brass and same bullets, the bulk #68's he and I used. Bought from Wideners in Johnson City, Tn.
With his Ransom Rest set up at 50 yards (he and I knew how to set up and operate the rest) proceed to put up a 50 yard slow fire full size target and fire a 5 shot group with his 4.0 grain Bullseye powder he used load to see where to precisely put the target to correspond the 10 ring with the group impact. Put up a fresh target and shot the first five of 3.8 grains. Put up a fresh center making sure the witness lines corresponded and fired the 3.9 grain load. Did the same thing for the remaining 4.0 and 4.1 loads.
19 of the 20 were WELL within the 10 ring on the 50 yards slowfire targets. (Could have been a bad bullet. Too late to care now) 3.375 inch outside diameter of the white line circle on a 50 yard slowfire official target as close as I could measure is the 10 ring. No weigh matched bullets, no visually inspected bullets just reach in and get one and seat it. I kept those targets for years to keep me grounded in reality that the shooter is what makes or breaks handgun accuracy. Loads yes but the shooter is the main thing. Anyone of those loads that covered an 8 percent spread from highest to lowest powder charge would have outshot anyone except a phenomenal shooter. And maybe a phenomenal shooter could not have outshot the accuracy of the loads. My buddy always used 4.0 grains of Bullseye but he even had his eyes opened.
Now before I am picked to pieces that was just one test and I am well aware of that fact. Don't need to be reminded of that.
I was told yesterday by a guy at the range that 25 yards is a long way for a pistol . Now I know what has been wrong with my shooting.
BTW. my buddy was the absolutely the best shot with a handgun I have personally seen in my life due to the fact he could shoot anything very well regardless of the recoil. Even my Encores offhand in heavy recoiling calibers.
I could relate the time he shot my buddys Encore handgun in 375 H&H with full power loads at 50 yards offhand but since this thread is about the 45 Auto I wont.

[44MAG#1]

"While I did not I am not so sure about this one???"

Dont worry about me. I learned by doing. I learned how to do things before the internet by doing the "dirty" work myself over close to 51 years.

[megasupermagnum]

Randy and M-Tec's, I have no doubts at all you can measure your crimps. You have been at this much longer than I have. I've tried it your way Randy many times in the past, and never got a repeatable measurment. I think M-Tec's method makes sense, but I still don't trust it completely. Based on what I'm seeing though, I would bet that you are not crimping the same amount as M-Tec's. I'd bet it is ungodly close, but there is just too much feel involved for me to believe you can get an honest measurement on a taper from one person to the next.

That works for you, and that is great. I am saying there is an easier way, and there is. The rotation of the die is consistent, since threads are fairly consistent. On an empty and sized case, I run the die down until it just kisses the case. I then turn it 1/4 turn farther. This produces a crimp very similar to the M-Tec's measuring method. All my revolver rounds I use a collet crimp die now. I go until those touch the shell holder, then another 3/4 turn. Surely you don't measure revolver crimps.