Federal Ruling On Selling Cast Bullets.

[Dixie Slugs]

This post is for your information. What you do with it is solely up to you! A friend of mine in North Florida bought all the equipment from the former Rock Island Balllistics, with the idea of selling cast pistol bullets. The Feds then informed him that he would have to have license Type 06 - Munfacturing Ammunition.
I contacted Mr John R. Spencer-Chief, Firearms Technolgy Branch for a ruling.
He states in his response of Feb 22 2008 the following:
"Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(17)(a)....Ammunition is......ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant designed for use in any firearm"
He goes on to say that those selling the above must have a Type 06 license.
Now.....Since the maker of ammo has to pay 11% tax.....I do not agree that anyone making the components of ammo should also have to pay 11% based on quarterly sales.....or in the past there was no license needed for making componant parts of ammo....as cast bullets.
Yesterday the Feds made their First of The Year visit here at Dixie Slugs. I asked them many questions concerning this...their answer was as above. I had wished to be able to have some bullets mae elsewhere on contract. I was told the bullets could only be made here at Dixie.
If you need a copy of Spencer's letter...send use an addressed and stamp envelope.
Now...there are a great deal of good folks that have made cast bullet for sale as a side-line. If they sell or give away these bullets...under the strict reading, they would have to have a Type 06 license.
Again, whatever you all decide to do about this is up to you. I have only passed this info so you will not be in the dark if the Feds show up.
Spencer does say that anyone making ammo (including cast bullets) for firearms listed as "antique firearms" needs no license. I will leave that up to you to figue out? it seems that most ammo used in antigues, is also used in "Firearms"...as is the 45-70 antigues.
Again, Again and Again....I am only pssing this info to you. What you do with it is up to you indeed. Don't flame me about it! It's CYA!
Regards, James

[Heavy lead]

James, I notices "give away", is this correct? If it is that is a real issue.
Thanks for the info.

[Geraldo]

Now...there are a great deal of good folks that have made cast bullet for sale as a side-line. If they sell or give away these bullets...under the strict reading, they would have to have a Type 06 license.


Reading GCA68 on ammunition, it always states "engages in the business of blah, blah, blah..." When you add the "give away" part, I think you're adding your own interpretation to ATF's letter.

[Dixie Slugs]

Quite frankly I was in hope that this was one of those grey areas, and would not be inforced. By thier way of thinking....you can make all the components for your on use...but any that are sold, given away, of reloaded for others comes under the Type 06 rule.
The real goofy thing about this Type 06 license is there is no rule about ammo that is sold must be under the SAAMI specs!.....nor does it rerquired ammo sold to the public be pressure tested. Since I see lots of loads passed around on the Net...many being dangerous in regular firearms...I jumped the Feds about this non-standard (SAAMI) ammo. Ole' Dixie does have pressure test records for all their ammo...plus it's made to SAAMI standards. What really pees my off are these "Bombs Loads" that are floating around the forums.
They also seem to be watching the Gun Clubs where someone there picks up empty hulls, reloads them, and sells to the shooters.........?
Again.....all this goes against the grain for me! In my mind Ammunition is not Ammunition until all the component parts (including cast bullets) are put together and then should it should come under standard specs from the SAMMI!
In my area, there are some very qualified folks that would like to do cottage type bullet casting for Dixie...not legal unless they are here at our shops!
How all this affects the bigger outfit like BPI and other big bullet makers.....is to be seen in the future! Since Ole' Dixie has the Type 06...we can do whatever we want about making and selling cast bullets. But, it stops cold us buyong any from anyone that does not have a Type 06! What next....molds for bullets (that is considered ammunition)?
Again...I am just passing on the information! What the end results will be......? This new group in the Whitre House will like this indeed!
Regards, James

[Old Ironsights]

What he failed to mention was, under the definitions in 18, 921 (10) the definition of "engaged in the business", and the modifying definition of 18, 921 (21) which defines who may be taxed, namely, those “engaged in the business” of, or (22) “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit”.

Of course, all of this is interpretation is up to the anti-gunowner whims of your local BATFE Gestapo, but there it is. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

Besides, I don't cast Boolits, I cast Fishing Sinkers.

What you do with them is your problem. ;)

[runfiverun]

you are also required to pay the tax on the boolits you produce not just sell.
this is why a lot of the shops owners buy their own boolits, as seconds. then resell them back to the shop as alloy.

[Dixie Slugs]

Look, I could not care less as to what you do about this ruling! Here's the address that you can get your interpretation indeed. I knew I would get some flack over this.
Mr John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
Firearms and Explosives
Martinsburg, WV 25401
The rest is up to you...I'm through with this thread. As far as I am concerned, it can be deleted...James

[Old Ironsights]

No flack Jim. I appreciate you bringing it up. This is just another example of a BATFE Feeb misinterpreting an already unconstitutional law.

Everyone should be aware of how they do this crap.

[Heavy lead]

James,
Thanks for the info, please do not delete the thread. US humans always get something chopped off when we stick our necks out, it's the way it is. Believe me I've had it happen too. But knowledge and awareness is good (boy did that sound liberal, eh!).
Thanks again.

[No_1]

James,

Thanks for pointing this out. The information is very useful to all of us.

Robert

[klcarroll]

James;

I am sure that no one here intended their comments to be interpreted as “flak” aimed in your direction!

When it comes to this kind of issue, I am positive that all here see it as I do; “Fore Warned is Fore Armed”!!!!!

…..But I also suspect that most here are exactly like me, in that we have lived long enough to be thoroughly sick of bureaucracies, and the nonsense they deal in! …..So a certain amount of “venting” is to be expected.

(….And as an aside, I’ll mention that 25 years ago, I held a Manufacturer’s License: …..So I understand your position implicitly!)

Kent

[leftiye]

That which is not sold is not commerce, and cannot be taxed.

[Larry Gibson]

"Since the maker of ammo has to pay 11% tax.....I do not agree that anyone making the components of ammo should also have to pay 11% based on quarterly sales..."

I do not believe that is the case. If the componants are sold commercially then the maker/seller pays the 11% tax. If the componants are sold to another ammuntion manufacturer to manufacture ammunition then I believe the second party pays the tax. At any rate the tax is only paid once. It is the same tax on firearms. Imagine a custom rifle going from action to barrel maker to stock maker to bluing to engraver, etc. Only one 11% tax is paid. The tax is only paid once on a firearm regardless of how many FFL holders it goes through before reaching the customer.

"..or in the past there was no license needed for making componant parts of ammo....as cast bullets.""

The 06 FFL has always been required for commercial casting of bullets. I got my FFL in '70 and also did some custom loading, including casting. I had an 06 FFL also then and paid the 11% tax on bullets manufactured.

BTW; let us not forget that the 11% tax is the Robertson-Pittman Tax. This was asked for by sportsman and is dedicated funding to be used for range construction and repair and wildlife management across the country. I know of several ranges that have benifited considerably from these funds in Oregon and Wasgington. I also know of many hunting wildlife programs that are assisted by these funds. This is not a tax we should complain about. Just pass the 11% tax off on to the sportsman as every other manufacturer does. These are dedicated funds that benifit us sportsman directly.

Larry Gibson

[Old Ironsights]

That which is not sold is not commerce, and cannot be taxed.

Strictly true, but try "not selling" a nome-made machine gun (or any gun) across State Lines...

[Heavy lead]

"Since the maker of ammo has to pay 11% tax.....I do not agree that anyone making the components of ammo should also have to pay 11% based on quarterly sales..."

I do not believe that is the case. If the componants are sold commercially then the maker/seller pays the 11% tax. If the componants are sold to another ammuntion manufacturer to manufacture ammunition then I believe the second party pays the tax. At any rate the tax is only paid once. It is the same tax on firearms. Imagine a custom rifle going from action to barrel maker to stock maker to bluing to engraver, etc. Only one 11% tax is paid. The tax is only paid once on a firearm regardless of how many FFL holders it goes through before reaching the customer.

"..or in the past there was no license needed for making componant parts of ammo....as cast bullets.""

The 06 FFL has always been required for commercial casting of bullets. I got my FFL in '70 and also did some custom loading, including casting. I had an 06 FFL also then and paid the 11% tax on bullets manufactured.

BTW; let us not forget that the 11% tax is the Robertson-Pittman Tax. This was asked for by sportsman and is dedicated funding to be used for range construction and repair and wildlife management across the country. I know of several ranges that have benifited considerably from these funds in Oregon and Wasgington. I also know of many hunting wildlife programs that are assisted by these funds. This is not a tax we should complain about. Just pass the 11% tax off on to the sportsman as every other manufacturer does. These are dedicated funds that benifit us sportsman directly.

Larry Gibson

This is also the fund and tax that will eventually outlaw all lead on federal property and trickle down to everything else. I'm sure it will be raised on the soon mandated all copper ammunition in order to "clean up" the federal lands (set up a slush fund for good friends of "name your senator" that happen to own an evironmentel engineering firm). Any tax is a bad tax, they might not start out that way, but they end up that way always. Whenever anyones money for any reason is mandated by a law it will be corrupted sooner or later. The fact that "sportsmen" asked for this testifies to the naive nature of the human race, we'll believe anything.
Wasn't the Woodrow Wilson income tax supposed to be temperary?[smilie=b:

[Boerrancher]

Hmm, I want to know how they are going to enforce the tax on those that are not sold, which brings back to how are they(BATF) going to stop me from selling or giving my cast boolits away? If they want to come to this part of the woods and enforce it, I will be more than glad to give those that show up all of the boolits they can pack off. I also have a few bags of quick lime and a couple of old junk cars I can park up in the woods. I am getting more and more disgusted with my country by the day. I fought half way around the world so others could have freedom, more freedom than we actually enjoy in this country. Go figure. I agree with Old Ironsights, I am just making sinkers for my friends and family. What they do with them is up to them.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Dixie Slugs]

It was not my intention to open the furnance door, but rather point out what could be a problem. Some of you have made some bold statements indeed.
You also need to check on how many times the tax is applied. I sugget you contact Spencer and find out for sure just where you all stand. He is one of the head honchos and not just a field man. I have quite a bit of time and money involved in my company and I am only concerned with what concerns keeping my license. I do not agree with many of the regulations indeed...but they are there. Your interpretation just might not be theirs. Anyway, I'm out of here.....I don't need this. You all do what you think is best.

[Kuato]

The real goofy thing about this Type 06 license is there is no rule about ammo that is sold must be under the SAAMI specs!.....nor does it rerquired ammo sold to the public be pressure tested. Since I see lots of loads passed around on the Net...many being dangerous in regular firearms..

Lawyers gotta eat too.......:groner:

[Wayne Smith]

Guys, I've been posting this for years. An 06 is no big issue. $10 a year, just as a C&R license. A visit from your local BATFE agent to see that you are doing it right. I renewed my 06 a year ago, no second visit. I have no problem with the Robertson-Pittman act. Do a little research. The money from this act has been used since it was passed in the late 20's to support wild life research, to support wild life land, and many of us probably use land bought from this money. Sure, you can find problems in any Federal or State program. Look at the good it has done, instead. Does you state have some sort of wild animal program? The Robertson-Pittman Act money payed for its establishment and probably for its continuance.

If I sold boolets to an end user I would have no problem adding the 11% tax and explaining why as well.

[crabo]

I guess that city and state sales tax is added to that 11%?

[The Double D]

Dixie Slugs,

Your post is very misleading and I don't belive you are correctly quoting the letter. How about scanning a copy of that letter and posting it see we can see what it realy says.

The Pittman Robinson act is an interesting law. Here is a link to the 16 USC 669 which is the actual law. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode16/usc_sec_16_00000669----000-.html

The states hate this law as do the bunny huggers. The funds can not be diverted for any other use than that specified in the law. The law also says the funds are for wildlife conservation and restoration programs for wildlife-associated recreation which include hunting and fishing.

To move through the sections by click on the next icon under the capital building in the upper right. Be sure to open the links in the text to see what they cover.

We all have been paying this fee since 1938.

[longbow]

In response to leftiye's comment "That which is not sold is not commerce, and cannot be taxed." may appliy within the US borders. That I can't comment on but I know that goods given to someone across the border ~ either way ~ have to be assigned a value and are taxed. Even exchanges for hobby purposes ~ I send you 100 cast boolits from my mould to try and you send me 100 from yours, they get taxed at the border.

Whenever the government can get a hand in your pocket they will, and it never leaves empty (mine do sometimes though).

Longbow

[deltaenterprizes]

you are also required to pay the tax on the boolits you produce not just sell.
this is why a lot of the shops owners buy their own boolits, as seconds. then resell them back to the shop as alloy.

Not so,I had a type 06 FFL for 15 yrs. Tax on ammo is only due on completed cartridges that the manufacturer supplies all the components. If you supply the empty brass and have it loaded for your personal use there is no tax due.
No tax on components. This tax is for the Pittman- Robertson Act and funds federal wildlife preserves.

Be careful of taking advise from that are not /have not been in the business.

[Russel Nash]

Okay.....???

Is anyone else here confused as I am about this whole thread?

What if one of my shooting buddies brings me a 5 gallon bucket of wheelweights.

Let's say it's 100 pounds of WW's.

I melt them down, cast 'em into bullets, and then I give him 50 pounds back in bullets.

What then?

Am I supposed to, technically speaking, get a class 06 FFL, become incorporated, maintain some books, get insurance and pay 11% in Pittman-Robertson taxes all so I can trade bullets for wheelweights?

If that's the case, what a PITA! (and WTH?!) :confused:

[Dixie Slugs]

While of the subject of obtainng a type 06 license...it's not easy anymore since 9/11. Your location must be re-zoned in most cases (through your County Com), fingerprinted, etc, plus many more fun things. You have to now proved no toxic disposal (to the Feds), County and State sales number if selling retail, and all the fun of equipment, boxing, labels, etc.....not a lot of fun.
Then if you are putting ammo together, there are other fun things like pressure testing, etc. In most cases you need a Web Page if you are serious about making ammo.
And.....like it or not, if you want to keep your license.....you go with the flow as far as how they look at existing laws.
Now, we can talk big about what we would do with the Feds....really! Remember Waco?
I do not suggest rolling over, but you may have to bend with the wind if you really want to get into the ammo game. Then more problems come up if you hire someone to work.....and there is always the liability involved in the shop and selling ammo. Then you have to show them you have no blackpowder and do not make armor-piercing ammo, etc. Now they want an alarm system, smoke alarms, as fire prevention, etc. If you got a type 06 and did not have to go through all this...consider yourself lucky indeed! Since they are not consistant, your area may be different.
So...you don't have to jerk my chain, I deal with all of it on a daily basis. I can only pass on what comes up with the Feds...whether I like it or not!....What you do is up to you!..James

[MT Gianni]

Dixie Slugs,

Your post is very misleading and I don't belive you are correctly quoting the letter. How about scanning a copy of that letter and posting it see we can see what it realy says.

The Pittman Robinson act is an interesting law. Here is a link to the 16 USC 669 which is the actual law. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode16/usc_sec_16_00000669----000-.html

The states hate this law as do the bunny huggers. The funds can not be diverted for any other use than that specified in the law. The law also says the funds are for wildlife conservation and restoration programs for wildlife-associated recreation which include hunting and fishing.

To move through the sections by click on the next icon under the capital building in the upper right. Be sure to open the links in the text to see what they cover.

We all have been paying this fee since 1938.
DoubleD it also applies to the shooting sports such as ranges. This helps from letting FWP use it all for their purposes.

[Geraldo]

Okay.....???

Is anyone else here confused as I am about this whole thread?

What if one of my shooting buddies brings me a 5 gallon bucket of wheelweights.

Let's say it's 100 pounds of WW's.

I melt them down, cast 'em into bullets, and then I give him 50 pounds back in bullets.

What then?

Am I supposed to, technically speaking, get a class 06 FFL, become incorporated, maintain some books, get insurance and pay 11% in Pittman-Robertson taxes all so I can trade bullets for wheelweights?

If that's the case, what a PITA! (and WTH?!) :confused:

No. That's the problem with Dixie Slugs' post: he implies that a hobbyist is compelled to get an 06 FFL and pay the 11% FET just to give boolits to a friend. There is also the issue of whether or not this letter is an ATF ruling, or a letter responding to his questions. If DS asked for clarification and ATF sent him a letter pointing out the existing law (see Larry Gibson's post above), then there is no new "ruling".

I think DS wanted to rant about not being able to buy boolits for his business from an individual or individuals who do not possess 06 FFLs, but he stirred the pot a bit by adding his opinion that a private caster was somehow constrained by GCA 68.

[Dixie Slugs]

Interesting indeed! First of all, The tax is based on quartrely sales in dollars. If a bullet maker sells his bullets , he has to have the license and pay tax based on the sales volume. If he sells his bullets and does not pay the tax...they will look over his sales records to verify that. As for the person giving away his bullets. I was refering to private caster wanting to have his bullets used by Dixie....I was told in no uncertain terms that if my records showed that those bullets were used in ammo made by a license holder, they must come form a license holder. Now...you can make whatever you want to from that. However, there are many casters selling there bullets on the Web and elsewhwere that do not have the license. That's what stopped the fellow in Lake City. My arguement with the Feds is ammunition is not ammunition until it is finished and ready to be shot. I did not get far on that and that was the response I got from Spencer. I still do not agree with the ruling that the component parts of a shell should be classed as finished ammo and need a license or be taxed.....but I have to live by it.
Now...I have said if anyone wants a copy of Spencer's letter, just send my a self addressed envelope. Your arguement is not with me. I, for one, think you should have in your file the answer Spencer (or some agent) gives on what you want to do.
For some reason it appears that I am after the small caster? That's in your mind only. What I am concerned about is the small (or larger) caster that thinks he does not need a license since he is making only componenet parts (say bullets).
The main point here is that the Feds quote that any component part of ammo is in fact ammunition!....that includes cartridge case, primers, bullets, and propellent powder, for use in any firearm (as classed by the law).
As for Excise Tax, the BATF is not now responsible for collecting the tax...but if you have not paid the tax, and should have based on your quarterly sales, they in term report you to the tax people.
As for clarification on any questin you might have, why not just get a ruling from Spencer?...then you can decide what your actions are! If you are afraid of what that ruling might be....take it up with them, not me.
And....for heavens sake...if you are determine to sell bullets without the license...do not post it on the Web or have a order form. If you are determined to sell bullets without a license, watch the local tax and zoning people! And..if you are determined to sell bullets without a license....be sure and use FedX or UPS..not the mail!
Now..the real confusing part is that bullets for any antique firearm (as stated by the ruling), ...the caster does not have to have a license....figure that out indeed?
What more can I say?....James

[The Double D]

Dixie Slugs although I feel your posting is made with good intentions. I do not think you intend to be misleading but you are.

Find some one with a scanner and get the letter scanned and post it here.

[Geraldo]

Dixie Slugs although I feel your posting is made with good intentions. I do not think you intend to be misleading but you are.

Find some one with a scanner and get the letter scanned and post it here.

In light of his most recent post, I'm inclined to agree. The original post was unclear as to who he was talking about.

James,

You're talking about three persons or entities:
1. A business or manufacturer with an 06 FFL.
2. A private individual who runs a business without an FFL.
3. A private person who casts for himself.

Just so we're clear, I fall into category three, so I don't need a letter, ruling, or FFL because I don't sell bullets or ammo. Neither does anyone else who casts for their own enjoyment.

I understand that you don't like the rule on this, but unfortunately it's been long established. Don't try to understand the logic behind it or any other ATF rule because there is none.

[klcarroll]

Twenty five years ago I operated under what would now be called a “Type 7” license with a “Class 2 Special Operations Tax Stamp”.

Two things happened:

1) I got to be on a first name basis with the regional “Firearms and Explosives Coordinator”.

2) I learned the wisdom of the old advice; “Never, ….EVER, be a Test Case!!!!”.

(…….And things back then were NOWHERE near as complicated as they are now!!)

So, …..regardless of James’ reasons for posting, …..I much prefer to read about someone else’s troubles than experience them myself!!

Issues like this bring out the “Barrack Room Lawyer” in all of us; …..And many of the arguments presented are good common sense: ….But when was the last time you saw a Bureaucracy follow the rules of “Common Sense”?????


.

[Dixie Slugs]

Exactly! I am speaking about the everyday fellow that wants to cast bullets and sell them as a side line, or maylbe full time....without a license. There seems to be some questions that the Feds can answer better on giving bullets away that are used by someone with a license?......or without a license!
Why is it so hard for those interested to send a self address envelope to get an actual copy of Spencer's letter?
And....I really could not care less what you do one way or the other when it comes to casting bullets...or what you do with them indeed! It was simply my intention to pass on what Spencer's says about making bullets for sale...and his comments that components are considered ammunition......and there are a great deal of cottage industry selling bullets that do not understand that. In many cases the ruling is vauge and it pays to have a letter concerning what you are doing. I do not completely trust the ATF field people to give a ruling...especialy if you are giving away bullets or loaded ammo. We are not taliking about bullets. ammo, or whatever for your on use!.....and never were. I am suggesting to CYA!
James

[KevMT]

Dixie Slugs,


The states hate this law as do the bunny huggers. The funds can not be diverted for any other use than that specified in the law. The law also says the funds are for wildlife conservation and restoration programs for wildlife-associated recreation which include hunting and fishing.



Quite true. But, despite some rather firm language to prevent pillaging the funds from this tax. There have been numerous cases of state agencies attempting to use P-R funds to send employees on trips and funnel the money in to non-game related programs. While I personally like the concept of the P-R fund the public has to be constantly vigilant about how the funds are spent and prevent bureaucracies from viewing the $ as their money.

[TAWILDCATT]

Mass tried to fidle with the fish and game department till they found they would lose all the Pittman roberts money.I have a friend who loads and sells ammo.he buys the bullets and loads in his house.the batf just inspected him and oked his business.he pays his taxes on gross.
I always tell people not to think about selling.it is not worth it.
and frankly the BATF will give you any answer they feel like giving.whether its true or not.think of ruby ridge and waco.less you have to do with them the better
:coffee: [smilie=1:

[Wayne Smith]

Interesting discussion. One slight correction: This is not a result of a 'ruling by BATFE' - it is specified in the law. In the "definitions" section of the law you will find "ammunition" defined as the components thereof. Mr. Spencer was simply quoting the law he is charged to enforce. If you have a problem with this don't go the the police man, go to your Congress person.

[Old Ironsights]

Yes, but as I said, it also defines who is under the provisions of that law... and it's not the casual caster who trades to his buds/sells off a few.

18, 921 (10) the definition of "engaged in the business", and the modifying definition of 18, 921 (21) which defines who may be taxed, namely, those “engaged in the business” of, or (22) “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit”.

Anything outside of that definition is an interpretation made by a rogue agent.

[The Double D]

Iron sights you are right, but it's unfair to refer to the gentlemen from ATF as a Rogue Agent without seeing what the letter said, and so far Dixie Slugs isn't posting the letter.

[Old Ironsights]

Agreed, but the point still stands. The definition is clear, and, regardless of what the local Tech Branch guy may have said in Dixie's specific case/letter (because Dixie DOES fit the definition), any agent/official who tries to intimate otherwise or willfully ignore the definitions is rogue.

[leftiye]

OI, Yup, that's the biggest thang wrong with our gubbermint IMHO. Fairly common (understatement) occurrence with them there bureaucrat egomainacs.

[dakotashooter2]

The solution.....


FREE bullets. Shipping and handling .15 per bullet. [smilie=1:

[Sam]

That which is not sold is not commerce, and cannot be taxed.

Not familiar with Wickard vs Filburn yet 'eh

[Dixie Slugs]

OK....Here is the letter Spncer sent me. Remember that my question was simple..."Do casters that sell their cast buillets have to have the license?" The letter answers that question.
I also asked the Lake City ATF head man the following question..."Can Dixie buy bullets for our use in loaded rounds from a caster without a license/"...answer was no, and the caster can not even give them away....their answer. not mine.
Those are the two questions I asked and who I asked...you can take it from there.
My only concern is, and has been, that some caster was selling bullets and did not understand the law. I know some casters that make extra fine bullets near here and would have liked to have them cast bullets for our use. I also know that all the people selling bullets do not have a license. I also questioned a field agent about selling reloaded ammo, such as shotshells at gun clubs or gun shows...same answer, they have to have a license and collect tax.
I still think it is best to have the answers on file.
Now, you can do what you want, I do not want any more involvement on this subject. I have posted the letter and am out of it!
Regards, James

[Russel Nash]

Without seeing the initial letter that Dixie slugs sent to the ATF, then the reply letter that was scanned in and posted above is not represented in context.

The question needs to be asked simply and directly:

Can Joe SixPack from down the street cast bullets and give 'em to his shooting buddies?

Or better yet:

Can Joe SixPack cast some bullets and then SELL them to his buddies?

[Old Ironsights]

According to the CFR's definitions of "manufacture/manufacturer" and "engaged in the business of" - yes... so long as the income recieved cannot be considered "significant" enough to be reasonably seen as having "the principal objective of livelihood and profit".

i.e., if it is a "business", side or otherwise, you already know you are taking at least 1099 income and therefore it falls under the need for a Type 06.

[klcarroll]

Do you suppose "Big Brother" considers home-made shot to be in the same catagory as finished cast boolits????

Kent

.

[dakotashooter2]

"...answer was no, and the caster can not even give them away....their answer. not mine.

Alternate solution: .454 diameter lead INGOTS for sale. [smilie=1:

[The Double D]

Well that letter is pretty clear to me. It states two fact

First there is a definition of what is considered ammunition . Bullets for example are considered ammunition for purpose of thelaw.

Second it states making ammunition for resale requires a 06 license.

It says nothing more or nothing less.

There are two elements you have to meet to be required to have the 06.

1. Make ammunition (cast bullets)

AND

2. If you make bullets for resale.

BOTH conditions must be met.


If you are casting bullets for your use and they are not for resale and you don't Need an 06.


The Letter is pretty clear and pretty straight forward.

[badgeredd]

Well that letter is pretty clear to me. It states two fact

First there is a definition of what is considered ammunition . Bullets for example are considered ammunition for purpose of thelaw.

Second it states making ammunition for resale requires a 06 license.

It says nothing more or nothing less.

There are two elements you have to meet to be required to have the 06.

1. Make ammunition (cast bullets)

AND

2. If you make bullets for resale.

BOTH conditions must be met.


If you are casting bullets for your use and they are not for resale and you don't Need an 06.


The Letter is pretty clear and pretty straight forward.

AGREED! SO it comes down to one SELLING boolits! Strictly speaking, the sale of boolits is income and if the BATFE really wants your butt, it may not fit the definition of "income for livelihood" but it IS income and the BATFE could feasibly ask the IRS for their assistance, if you catch my drift.

I also agree that one forewarned is forearmed. IF one does sell the boolits, one should be aware of the POSSIBLE consequences of the sale IF an agency wants to pursue it. STRICTLY speaking, barter is also taxable as income too.

Edd

[Old Ironsights]

Isn't it great that we live in such a "free" country that we have to discuss whether or not JBTs get to kick in your door over inert metal?

[leftiye]

I suspect that BATF (like so many governments - my local city thinks sling shots are "firearms") is pushing its power, by perverting or ignoring definitions. Again, If you don't sell it, or trade it it is not taxable, and does not involve commerce (Iguess you might involve a gift tax). The power of the federal government to do anything involves commerce and beyond that, in most cases commerce across state lines. It may take a lawsuit to jerk the jerks back into line (where's the NRA?).

Dixie, I don't think anyone is targeting you in any way here. The ruling IS overstepping the power granted by the respective law, and that is objectionable. Rule by bureaucracy sans any empowerment that can be traced to the people is tyranny. Period, plain and simple.

BATF and other acencies do need to interpret laws, but the standard nowadays is that they abuse this interpretation uniformly to expand their power. It is predictable, and no mistakes are involved.

[Russel Nash]

So would selling once fired brass be considered selling ammunition then?

I can't tell you how many countless number of threads I have seen on a variety of forums, even this one, where a guy posts an ad to sell off some brass, usually in 1,000 piece lots.

In my mind, if one can't sell or trade (wheelweights for bullets or birdshot) then one CANNOT sell or trade brass either.

And if the BATFE considers brass to be ammo, then so must the United States Postal Service. Consequently then shipping brass through the mail is the same as shipping ammo through the mail and I would suspect highly frowned upon by the USPS. And potentially a criminal and/or felony offense (1,000 pieces of brass = 1,000 counts of whatever aplicable criminal charge).

:confused:

[Dixie Slugs]

I wish I have never started this thread indeed! I was only concerned that many casters (and others selling components) did not understand what was involved.
The Feds's statement is quite clear to me that the components of ammunition are considered ammunition.......I do not agree, but that's what the law states. As for as I am concerned ammunition is not ammuntion until it is capable of being fired! But is appears that is not the gov't understanting and Dixie has to live with it.
It may be that if enough people complain, the law might be changed?????
What is really needed is letters (for file) to Spencer asking for explanation of each componenet item. As long as everyone sits out there and complains to each other, nothing will/could be done.
As for Dixie...we are in full compliance and passed field inspection. Whatever you do is up to you indeed. I am out of it!
Regards, James

[Russel Nash]

^^^ Well, darn... I was hoping you could re-post that letter so I could actually right click on it and save it to my computer as a .jpg .

I have a few gun friendly lawyers that I would like to look at that.


I guess I will just have to email them the link to this thread instead.

Oh well...

[Dixie Slugs]

The letter from Spencer is already a jpg...James

[Russel Nash]

Then it must be something about the forum software here or wherever that "pic" is hosted it, cuz it doesn't save as a .jpg on my harddrive, that's for sure.

[ddeaton]

I am classifying mine as lubed fishing sinkers:-D

[Harpman]

I think the real question here should be, Does it pass the smell test of a guy like Jed Clampet ?....would he take to revenuers telling him he needs a piece of paper ?

[The Double D]

^^^ Well, darn... I was hoping you could re-post that letter so I could actually right click on it and save it to my computer as a .jpg .

I have a few gun friendly lawyers that I would like to look at that.


I guess I will just have to email them the link to this thread instead.

Oh well...

Go to the letter and put you cursor on it. Right click your mouse, then select copy or save and it should save to your hard drive. Humm, just reread your post and it sounds like you already tried that, sorry just went beyonb my computer skill level.

Dixie Slugs Thanks for posting that letter.

[Geraldo]

I wish I have never started this thread indeed!

:roll:



I can't tell you how many countless number of threads I have seen on a variety of forums, even this one, where a guy posts an ad to sell off some brass, usually in 1,000 piece lots.


Everybody relax and go read GCA 68 (easy to find if you google it). If you're not in business, this doesn't apply to you. Just as you don't need an FFL to sell me one of your rifles if you live in Florida, you don't need an FFL to sell stuff components UNLESS IT IS YOUR BUSINESS.

The answer was specific to James' question, which has nothing to do with the the non-manufacturer. Don't make it more than it is.

[CSH]

This is a long post but hopefully will shed some light on the ATF and what we as boolit casters should be concerned about. U.S. Code Title 18, Chapter 44 covers firearms and ammunition. All of Chapter 44 can be read here (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_44.html). The definition for ammunition that was included in Dixie's scanned letter comes straight from Section 921. Section 921 also defines a dealer as someone "engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail". Also from Section 921

The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Of course, the key to all of this is further interpretation of a few words such as "in the business" and livelihood. This how ATF goes about prosecuting individuals who sell their personal firearms. If one of your firearms ends up being used in crime or is confiscated in NJ or NY, I guarantee the ATF is going to investigate you to a degree that you find extremely uncomfortable. If more than one of your guns ends up in the wrong hands, ATF will charge you of dealing without a license. You are free to defend the charges in a court of law against an organization with unlimited resources.

Lest you think I'm dreaming up things here, this happened in my own area about 5 years ago. A guy who had purchased many firearms over many years learned he had bladder cancer and had to sell just about all of his guns (I believe the number was around 75) to fund cancer treatments and other expenses. There were no straw purchasers or illegal intent but a couple of handguns were confiscated from criminals in NY and of course came back to him from the 4473s. The ATF charged him with dealing firearms without a license. Some of the firearms had been sold at a profit (we're talking very modest here), hence he derived a livelihood from the sale, according to the U. S. Atty. He had purchased most of these from a licensed dealer in our area. This dealer had advised him that it was OK to sell these firearms since they were his personal property and even helped spread the word that this gentleman needed to sell some guns, so the ATF charged the dealer with knowingly selling to a straw purchaser. Both of these guys ultimately pled guilty for reduced sentencing instead of risking a trial (simply because they had no money for a legitimate defense attorney). They solicited the NRA for help but never got a response. I knew the dealer personally, and can tell you he was truly an innocent victim in all of this. He has a son with muscular distrophy who requires a lot of care. Being a gun dealer was a way for him to make a reasonable living and be at home to care for his son. This was another reason he pled guilty. Had he gone to trial and lost with the public defender, he likely would have received prison time.

ATF was directed to focus on running "kitchen table" gun dealers out of business since Clinton was in office, and have been highly successful. I was hopeful that there would be a change in this policy with Dubya and the appointment of John Aschcroft as US Atty Gen, but alas that was not to be. Regardless of what anyone believes about selling your own boolits, what constitutes being in business, livelihood, etc, if the ATF brings a case to a U.S. Attorney and they decide to prosecute and you're not rich, you are in for a world of hurt. This could easily extend to boolit casters such as ourselves. I don't think anyone who is dabbling in cast bullets or selling brass has a thing to worry about --- at least right now. ATF hasn't been directed to focus on "unlicensed" ammunition makers yet.

[leftiye]

So, We pay taxes to a malicious, and unfriendly government so that they can use our money to persecute us. SNAFU

[Old Ironsights]

...They solicited the NRA for help but never got a response. ....

And people wonder why I break Bad on the Vichy Frog's NRA...

Neil Knox wouldn't have stood for it.

[The Double D]

CSH, can you provide a citation for that case?

[CSH]

I googled his name and the indictment didn't show up. It is on the DOJ site in press releases (somewhere). Their search engine doesn't seem to be working. When I find it I'll post it here. It's been about 5 years since this happened, but the DOJ archives go back over 10 years.

[Dixie Slugs]

For what is worth....The Feds really look at our filed order forms and to see that the age of the customer is added. We will take no phone orders and only ship against a signed order form. These order forms are kept on file. They also want to know the number of rounds we ship in any year....and if we paid tax on the number. Nor do we sell any retail. Nor do we allow anyone in the shop that does not work for Dixie.
Having spent my entire adult life working for the gun and ammo compamies...I am aware of what is needed for compliance....like it or not!
I still advise everyone to get the answer to any question you might have in writing....before you start selling any types of components....better to be safe than sorry.
As for new laws....it does not matter as it depends on how the present (vague?) laws are enforced indeed.
Regards, James

[CSH]

I couldn't find the news release on the DOJ site, but here's the gist of it as reported by the press. It's titled "Alabama Gun Dealer Sold 400 Firearms to Unlicensed Owners" at the bottom of the page.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/Articles/2005/100805.html

The title of the article is a joke in itself. There is no licensing requirement to purchase any type of gun in Alabama, only the NICS check, which all of the buyers cleared. The five college students were arrested, charged, and sentenced for illegally transporting and selling firearms across state lines. Mr. Longshore even testified against them at their trial. Like I said in the previous post, DOJ decided years ago that they wanted dealers that operate out of their homes to be put out of business. That is the real reason Mr. Longshore was charged.

[PatMarlin]

ATF was directed to focus on running "kitchen table" gun dealers out of business since Clinton was in office, and have been highly successful. I was hopeful that there would be a change in this policy with Dubya and the appointment of John Aschcroft as US Atty Gen, but alas that was not to be.


THe ATF just came in to our local town's FFL general store owner and tore him a new one. Inspected him for 2 days. Was rude, and made him redo paper work, where a "T" did not have a defined enough cross, etc.

This guy has a nice store and is very professional. The Feds want him out of the business of selling firearms and harassed him endlessly for 2 days.

So I guess then boolit lube and gas checks would need to be included in the mix?

[MT Gianni]

So I guess then boolit lube and gas checks would need to be included in the mix?

I buy pop cans for checks and grease for some lubes. Does NAPA and Town Pump need to pay an tax and have an class 6 FFL?

[TAWILDCATT]

seem some of you dont get it Dixie has it right.many states have law on selling.
if you sell some thing continuely you are in the trade,you need a retail dealers license.and pay a tax on your "income"
NOW:if the other person gives you the lead you can make bullets for him and he can pay you for labor.no tax.same with loaded ammo.but it must be the identical items,no receiving brass and giving loaded ammo in exchange.
as to selling guns like the example I would put them on consinement with a dealer and let him handle it.
the gun dealers were 260,000? and are now down to 60,000.remember WACO
that had to do with illigal sales among other things.the Batf has a number of rouge agents,ones who left local police depatments under a cloud.I know at least two.regardless what you think of DIXIE follow his advice and keep clear of the BATF.it could save your life.:coffee: [smilie=1:

[PatMarlin]

If you don't pay resales taxes they will come and tear down the bed sheets.. !

Somethings you just do with no reservations. Lot of people have gotten in trouble by trying to beat Franchise Tax.

[Dixie Slugs]

The simple solution to a complex problem is the find out for sure (and back it with writting) covering exactly what you are doing, or want to do! Once you are in compliance, you will have very little problem, if any, with agents.
Regards, James

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've been in law enforcement of several kinds for 19 years now, and the one bad thing I see (at all levels, and in all agencies) is a marked loss of comprehension about the ideals and principles BEHIND the Constitution.

When a person is in jail and someone posts their bond, you'd think that means they get out of jail in a reasonable amount of time, wouldn't you? Well, turns out the Jailors (sorry, Correctional-Officers) have until midnight that night to release the inmate... And, now, because of a new law to monitor domestic violence offenders in my state, we're considering not releasing the person for 24 hours after their bond is posted! I was a pee-on in the meeting talking about this, and I went apoplectic over this idea, and the Judge, State's Attorneys and my boss all patted me on the head for being worried about people's rights and went on without me (which is FINE with me, if this is the kind of crap they're doing to people)...

Same thing with BATFE guys. Went to an arson training class many years ago, taught by one of their agents. During the class he puts up a slide of a house that was burned with incendiary accelerants and points out a few things. In the pics, it's obvious the guy is seriously interested in knives (had 50-75 of them in the pics). ATF guy says (and this is nearly an exact quote - I'll never forget it), "if this guy was a gun collector as much as a knife collector, we'd've had a name for him, because we run across gun collectors like this a lot... We call them 'gun-freaks.' I guess this guy would be a 'knife-freak.'" That's almost a direct-quote folks. I guess to an ATF guy if you collect wood-burning stoves, you'd be a "stove-freak," etc., etc. I wonder how many and what kinds of "-freaks" there are in the ATF, because obviously the problem is if you have an interest in something and collect it... Damn stamp-freaks, and coin-freaks, and antique-freaks!

Our system isn't great, but it isn't bad. The problem is with the frustrating way the system works to put away bad people, that officers, lawyers, and judges start looking at everyone before them as bad people... And, the frustration from not getting satisfactory results from arresting and trying and sentencing "bad" people gets attitudes like the above going... It's a catch-22. We want bad people punished, but the enforcement attitude starts confusing who is good and bad, so we need a strong defense system, that then protects bad people from getting punished........... :roll:

[Russel Nash]

Didn't they get Al Capone for tax evastion?

Just sayin'...

[smilie=1:

[45nut]

Our system isn't great, but it isn't bad. The problem is with the frustrating way the system works to put away bad people, that officers, lawyers, and judges start looking at everyone before them as bad people... And, the frustration from not getting satisfactory results from arresting and trying and sentencing "bad" people gets attitudes like the above going... It's a catch-22. We want bad people punished, but the enforcement attitude starts confusing who is good and bad, so we need a strong defense system, that then protects bad people from getting punished........... :roll:

See my signature regarding the ever-increasing way to control people by increasing how "bad people" are created.

[CSH]

as to selling guns like the example I would put them on consinement with a dealer and let him handle it

And that is exactly what the ATF and DOJ top dogs want everyone to do. No face to face transactions between individuals. The problem in our area is there is only one gun store that does a lot of volume and they don't do consignment. The prices I've seen them offer for someone's used guns could almost be classified as robbery.

[leftiye]

There is still a reason to think that our desires should have some meaning - it is THE basic precept of democracy (BTW)! Being ruled by a government that has forgotten this and replaced it with their own likes and dislikes is just another tyranny. Government should not decide how many firearms (or anything else dealers) they want, it's supposed to be free enterprise! No more than Utah had any right a few years ago to decide that they wanted to cut the number of deer hunters in half. [they accomplished this by further ruining the hunting here]. What I do, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else) for diversion, hobby etc. should be outside their purview. And so should my choice of livelyhood. BATF's likes and dislikes should be a non issue in the world, except as in the case that they are interpreting a law correctly and unbiasedly. Same goes fer alla them other little tin gods!

[Bullshop]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda is a perfect world fantasy the possability for which does not exist here now and in the flesh. When gov went from being a side line chor to being an ever increasing self serving entity we the people lost the ability to govern the government.
There's only one way to get it back and as a pampered people I dont think we got the guts for it. There is a minority that may be capable of carrying the ball but like I said they are a minority just like us here on CB and as we found out this election our thoughts are not thier thoughts. I think the majority are content to be ruled as long as the ruler can make them cozy and cumfy and tuck them in at night. They dont want a bunch a radicles rockin that boat. Thats how I see it anahoo but my sights gettin poor lately.
BIC/BS

[MakeMineA10mm]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda is a perfect world fantasy the possability for which does not exist here now and in the flesh. When gov went from being a side line chor to being an ever increasing self serving entity we the people lost the ability to govern the government.
There's only one way to get it back and as a pampered people I dont think we got the guts for it. There is a minority that may be capable of carrying the ball but like I said they are a minority just like us here on CB and as we found out this election our thoughts are not thier thoughts. I think the majority are content to be ruled as long as the ruler can make them cozy and cumfy and tuck them in at night. They dont want a bunch a radicles rockin that boat. Thats how I see it anahoo but my sights gettin poor lately.
BIC/BS

Now that right there is just plain smart thinking. Got right to the heart of things Bullshop.

[SSGOldfart]

Hummmm the ATF can bring the IRS down on you pretty quick too

[Adam10mm]

Since this thread came back from the dead, I'd like to address a few flaws in it.

Preface: I've been a licensed 06 FFL since 2006 and licensed 07 FFL since 2007.

The GCA of 1968 defines ammunition as every four components of cartridge ammunition: case, bullet, primer, powder. To manufacture such component, including complete cartridges, for business purposes you must have the proper FFL. If you cast bullets, you need an FFL. If you swage bullets, you need an FFL. If you turn bullets on a lathe, you need an FFL. "An FFL" is hereby regarded as a type 06, 07, or 10 FFL (ammunition, firearm, destructive device manufacturer, respectively).

Now, to clear up some BS.

There is ZERO Federal Excise Tax on components. Only complete loaded ammunition. Components are ammunition for purposes of the GCA but not for FET. Bullet manufacturers don't pay FET on bullets. Ever.

The ATF has nothing to do with SAAMI. SAAMI is a private corporation that sets standards for the firearms and ammunition industry for SAAMI members only. If you aren't a SAAMI member, they can't do anything. Think of it this way: If you are a SAAMI member, you will do it this this way. Well, if you're not a member, you don't have to play their game. My company is not a SAAMI member, but my company's ammunition is loaded to SAAMI MAP limits and to SAAMI OAL limits.

Just because a published ammunition product isn't matching up with your Hodgdon manual doesn't mean it's over SAAMI pressure.

[greywuuf]

So here is a brain twister.... Ever hear "Possession with intent to sell"

often used in drug legalized situations where possession is legal but dealing is not. Could this be applied to casters as well ? So they come to your place and you have 600 Pounds of lead and 50 or 60 molds, now to most "reasonable people" you "obviously" are not just a casual caster, you must be intending to sell. hmmmm I don't trust em NOT to though I admit currently it would be a stretch.

[Adam10mm]

There is no possession with intent with regards to this topic.

[SSGOldfart]

What he failed to mention was, under the definitions in 18, 921 (10) the definition of "engaged in the business", and the modifying definition of 18, 921 (21) which defines who may be taxed, namely, those “engaged in the business” of, or (22) “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit”.

Of course, all of this is interpretation is up to the anti-gunowner whims of your local BATFE Gestapo, but there it is. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

Besides, I don't cast Boolits, I cast Fishing Sinkers.

What you do with them is your problem. ;)

FYI fishing sinkers are taxed at 11% as well:popcorn: