The garand ammo arguement rolls on!

[Gtek]

Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

Dear CMP Family,

The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

Civilian Marksmanship Program

Somebody make parts at the range we have not heard about?

[Winger Ed.]

There must be an echo in here.:bigsmyl2:

[FLINTNFIRE]

Yeah so if in 70 years there really is not a issue why would I worry about the age of the rifle ? I figure if it stood the test of world war 2 korea and wherever else it is good to go .

[namsag]

Well I am no authority but it makes sense to me. I don't see the need to push it. In my Garands I only shoot M2 ball or something very close to it, as designed for the rifle. If I wanted to hot rod a .30-'06 I certainly wouldn't do it with an M1 Garand, for several reasons.

[JSnover]

Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

Dear CMP Family,

The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s 174gr. ... not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets.

Civilian Marksmanship Program

Somebody make parts at the range we have not heard about?
Most people, you only have to warn them once. The rest insist on learning the hard way.

[zarrinvz24]

If you’ve not read Hatcher’s book of the Garand, I’d highly recommend it. The testing the M1 was subjected to is absolute torture. At the end of testing, the ordnance department concluded that the Garand receiver was the most durable firearm ever created and demonstrated extreme durability. The Achilles of the rifle is the op rod. Just remove the gas cylinder cap screw and you can fire anything your heart desires. It will effectively turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action with spring assist.

[TNsailorman]

I was caught up in the "magnumize it" crowd in the early days of my youth. I finally come around to the point that what is accurate is what counts. If shooting a 30-06 and 150 grain bullets, I would start with a starting load around 2600 FPS with the appropriate powders and work my way up until I had found the most accurate load or accuracy was beginning to fall off. Then I would back up to the most accurate load and that was my hunting load. Deer haven't discovered Kevlar as yet. AS I said before, I only shoot 4895 powder in my Garands and I have found accuracy to be at its best around 2700+ FPS in most of them.

[Multra]

If you’ve not read Hatcher’s book of the Garand, I’d highly recommend it. The testing the M1 was subjected to is absolute torture. At the end of testing, the ordnance department concluded that the Garand receiver was the most durable firearm ever created and demonstrated extreme durability. The Achilles of the rifle is the op rod. Just remove the gas cylinder cap screw and you can fire anything your heart desires. It will effectively turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action with spring assist.

Just use an adjustable gas plug and you can shoot whatever fits in the magazine.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Certainly an important subject, as so many of us own M1 Garands. I knew I had to own one after using them extensively in the Army, but they were in short supply for civilians. For a couple of years the only ones I saw on the surplus market were returns from Britain, and ran well over $80. Since I was making $1.50 hr. at the time they remained beyond my reach, until the Govt. eventually released some for sale and I got my first one from DCM (later rebranded to CMP). But, in anticipation of the day when I would own one I started saving loading information. The recommendations were almost always for IMR 4895, but what varied surprisingly was the amount. I still have articles in my reloading binder that recommend 50 - 52 gr., with one writer claiming that 50 gr. duplicated the Govt. loading. I never loaded them that hot, but settled on 48 gr. After reading through this Forum's back pages, and some not so long ago, I'm thinking that 46 gr. might be a better everyday choice. Also, a slight adjustment in load might be advisable if one is using H-4895 instead of IMR 4895.

As stated by zarrinvz24 above, the weakest part of the system is the operating rod. It has a double bend, and has to be within specs to operate properly. Shooting lots of ammo, high pressure ammo, is what deforms the rod. I read a short reference to this problem written by Col. Charles Askins who said that he and his Camp Perry cabin mate used to "straighten out" their rods after the day's completion by bending them over the bunk frames in the cabin. I found that pretty confusing as the rods are obviously bent to start with, but it was later explained to me by one of his contemporaries that by straightening he meant bending back to original configuration. I've never had to do this, but apparently if one has a "trained eye" it can be done. One thing is for certain, the op rod is one of the most expensive parts to replace, so if you're not adept at bending/straightening them it's a good idea to have a spare or two, as the supply of unissued originals has dried up, and most of those now available have been rebuilt one way or another, like receiving a new tip on the rod. I used to have a couple of spare rods and gas cylinders in anticipation of needing to replace those parts someday, but used them up building a couple of rifles from parts, so will have to get around to buying some more for insurance. Usually SARCO is a good source.

DG

[Digger]

Thank you for the info ...
With that said , I feel a bit better about my situation as I stated in another garand thread ..
"Bent" my op rod very carefully by using a section of pipe with internal padding , braced to my bench and incrementally putting pressure at certain points in reverse of the bend angles for my Tanker in 308 .
Restoring the original angles worked very nicely as it had been just a little out of spec looking at the action/function.
With my hand loads being a bit lighter , it is a very pleasing shooter.
Probably in the past , the op rod came from another rifle in that state of condition.

[Char-Gar]

The Garand was designed to fire the USGI M1 load and later the National Guard M2 load. Wisdom dictates folks will do well to stick to clones of those two loads.

[bigwagon]

This is new news? I guess some newbie shooter done blowed up their new Garand. It's amazing how much we have forgotten considered we now have more access to information than ever before in the history of mankind.

[HumptyDumpty]

I received the same email as well. I thought this was well proliferated knowledge, but apparently not.

[downzero]

I received the same email as well. I thought this was well proliferated knowledge, but apparently not.

Same. I shoot only 4895 in mine as well. I have shot match/heavier bullets before with reduced charges, but usually I shoot only 150 grain FMJs with the military loading.

[Thundermaker]

The main thing you have to worry about is port pressure. Slower powders mean higher port pressure. Stay away from any ammo that advertises higher velocities at lower pressures, such as hornady superformance. The Schuester (think I spelled that right) gas plug works well if you have any other concerns.

[porthos]

i think that the message was sent to make sure that those with lower IQs don't try to hotrod these guns.

[Pirate69]

Few years ago, I saw a Garand in a gunshop that had a crack across the heel and had been welded to repair. There was no an explanation available on how it occurred. I tried to buy it for parts since the weld went across the serial number and I wanted no part of a cracked action anyway. Owner thought I was crazy to think it was not ok.

I think, early in WWII, there was a problem with heel cracking while shooting rifle grenades. The solution was to anneal the receiver heel. The heel was dipped in molten lead. At least that is what I think I remember reading.


If you’ve not read Hatcher’s book of the Garand, I’d highly recommend it. The testing the M1 was subjected to is absolute torture. At the end of testing, the ordnance department concluded that the Garand receiver was the most durable firearm ever created and demonstrated extreme durability. The Achilles of the rifle is the op rod. Just remove the gas cylinder cap screw and you can fire anything your heart desires. It will effectively turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action with spring assist.

[Gtek]

Just thought it was interesting the CMP released now. Being a 61' model and having seen a few things, the seemingly never ending quest of individuals to try and make things do what they were not designed to do will continue to entertain me.

[M-Tecs]

Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

Dear CMP Family,

The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

Civilian Marksmanship Program

Somebody make parts at the range we have not heard about?

That's what has been recommend for the past 85 years. What's changed? Nothing that I can see.

50,000 CUP is the SAAMI standard for the 30-06 in CUP. 60,000 PSI is the SAAMI standard in the 30-06 in PSI. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

I have personally seen Garand's converted to 35 Whelen, 300 Win Mag and 458 Win Mag. The only ones I have done have been to 308 Win.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/07/06/oood-mccann-industries-458-win-mag-garand/

I do heed the advice about port pressure. That being said in 30 plus years of working on the for Service rifles for competition I have never seen a bent OP rod. I made the mistake of agreeing to built two tankers for a buddy. I will never do that again. Saying bending the OP without heat was a challenge is an understatement.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/m1-garand-handloads

Various sources claim the M1 bullet weighed 172, 173 and 174 grains, a mystery explained by a list of .30-06 service loads in Hatcher’s Notebook, the reference work by General Julian Hatcher. The maximum bullet weight of M1 ammunition was a maximum of 174.5 grains but could be as much as 3 grains lighter. Similarly, the maximum weight of the “150-grain” bullet was 152 grains but could be as light as 149 grains.

[FLINTNFIRE]

A year or so ago a member posted some articles with reference to what ammo the Garand was actually developed with and the opinions of the writers that improper lubing was the main issue with operating rods , I can not remember posters name , he sent me the articles as he posted that any who wanted he would email to .

I try to stay in the so called sweet spot of powders and have got accuracy with out hot rodding or modding , but each person can believe what they want or shoot what they want , as to buying parts sarco did not have any last time I looked and I am careful what I buy there as the so called 1911 mags there are a travesty to be called original .

These were rifles meant for hard use in hard conditions , my father talks about people who did not keep their rifles lubed correctly or used to much and how his kept on doing what it was made for in 1950-1951 .

Glad I bought en blocs and cardboards when they were available , as there may be a time they need pressed back into use .

[Bigslug]

Numerous load manuals have treated the .45-70 as three separate cartridges for many years now, depending on what vintage and design of firearm you intend to shoot. . .

Similarly, we have both Peacemaker and "Baby Casull" load data for the .45 Colt.

This seems very much like one of those "Look. . .this isn't that hard" topics to me.

[charlie b]

IMHO, the reason for the CMP doing this is the recent surge of interest in the Garand.

Huge numbers of younger folks are buying them without any research being done. So, Joe Blow gets his new to him Garand and proceeds to the store to get ammo. These days selection is limited so he picks up some 220gn loads for elk season. After sighting in he has problems with the op rod and calls CMP asking why they sent him a dud rifle.

[725]

I used to have Garands but poverty had her way with me for awhile, hence, ....... Friends have them and one in particular, is forever trying to hot rod it. He does it with most of his stuff. One thing to keep in mind is that Mr. Garand developed this platform with a .276 caliber, not .30 cal., in mind. The ordnance corp, or more specifically, Douglas MacArthur, was sitting on a pile of .30 cal ammo, so it was redesigned for the.30 cal. I think they are tough as can be and history will back me up there. Still, although it functions well at M1 standards, it was meant for a lighter cartridge.

[M-Tecs]

https://m1-garand-rifle.com/history/early-designs.php

https://www.thoughtco.com/world-war-ii-m1-garand-2361245

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ria-t3e2-trials-276-caliber-garand/

[zarrinvz24]

I used to have Garands but poverty had her way with me for awhile, hence, ....... Friends have them and one in particular, is forever trying to hot rod it. He does it with most of his stuff. One thing to keep in mind is that Mr. Garand developed this platform with a .276 caliber, not .30 cal., in mind. The ordnance corp, or more specifically, Douglas MacArthur, was sitting on a pile of .30 cal ammo, so it was redesigned for the.30 cal. I think they are tough as can be and history will back me up there. Still, although it functions well at M1 standards, it was meant for a lighter cartridge.

And that would have allowed a 10 round magazine. While 8 doesn't really bother me it is awkward. Compared to the M-14 however, I love the clean lines of the M-1 and the lack of magazine protrusion.

[Walks]

Yep,
Kinda fascinates me that every 5yrs or so, that this comes around again.
I guess every new shooter has to be educated on this simple subject.
Today most seem to start with black guns and work their way around to the old standbys.

When I got My DCM Garand back in 1989 there was no manual enclosed with it. Fortunately My Dad had schooled Me well on loading for them. Never had a problem.
Bullet; 150-168grs, Powder; 46grs - 48grs of H4895 or IMR4895.
Can't get much simpler then that.

[charlie b]

Yep, my father-in-law taught me. I now have his rifle. Fun to shoot. It is my 'black' gun :)

[Char-Gar]

Some years back, the NRA put out a thin paperback that contained many of the articles from the American
Rifleman about the Garand rifle. It did a good job of covering the history, the loading for the rifle, maintaining of the rifle and accurizing the rifle. I don't know if it is still in print, but it is a treasure if you have one.

I bought my Garand for $500.00 in 2001 at a pawnshop. It was a truly mint 1962 Red River Arsenal rebuilt on a Springfield receiver. It one one of those "canned" and never shipped overseas as a loaner. I assume it came from the DCM years ago.

[376Steyr]

"IMHO, the reason for the CMP doing this is the recent surge of interest in the Garand.

Huge numbers of younger folks are buying them without any research being done. So, Joe Blow gets his new to him Garand and proceeds to the store to get ammo. These days selection is limited so he picks up some 220gn loads for elk season. After sighting in he has problems with the op rod and calls CMP asking why they sent him a dud rifle."

+1 on this. Add in the guys who want to neck-size only their fired brass for "better accuracy" and have never heard the word "Slam-fire."


But I have to ask, what about low numbered 1903 Springfields? (Ducks and covers :twisted:)

[dnegative]

Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

Dear CMP Family,

The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP

And in other new, water is wet!
Do you really have to tell people not to load and shoot over pressure ammunition?


But I have to ask, what about low numbered 1903 Springfields? (Ducks and covers :twisted:)

People shoot those here, they are like any 100yr old rifle.
If its still going today its probably not half bad but dont forget the warranty expired before you were born ;)

[charlie b]

The problem is that factory ammo is not over pressure for the .30-06 SAAMI spec. The Garand just was not made for the heavier bullets with so much residual pressure near the muzzle. The chambers handle the heavier loads just fine.

Just a little quirk with the Garand that has to be learned or taught.

FWIW, back in the 80's one of the family friends hunted elk with his Garand with 220gn loads. Yes, he did learn the hard way as he bent an op rod the first time shooting those. His local gunsmith fixed it and showed him how to change the gas system by installing a new plug that was drilled out. He took quite a few elk with that thing before he got too old to hunt.

[cabezaverde]

I was the guy who scanned the article about using factory ammo. It had appeared in an older GCA magazine.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Yes you were , I could not remember as I dump my pm boxes , thank you for the articles .

[cabezaverde]

I still have it on my computer if anyone is interested. Drop me a pm with your email address.