Bullet lube gluing bullets in case necks

[Wilderness]

I have recently been reminded of the occurrence of lubricated cast bullets setting up some sort of bond with the case neck after loaded cartridges have been standing for a time. The relevance of this is that it can affect velocity and POI, and probably group as well.

The outcome can be a very different POI when you come to use the ammo versus what was obtained when testing immediately following loading. I have an instance to relate.

With cast bullets, this adhesion may occur in as little as a week.

I have found extensive discussion of such “welding” as it relates to jacketed bullets, but nothing at all on cast bullets. Welding/gluing, whether of jacketed or cast, can be discovered when attempting to pull bullets that don’t want to be pulled, or by attempting a small increase in seating depth. I occasionally pull cast bullets soon after loading them, for all the usual reasons, and do not recall any difficulty pulling newly loaded ammo. Seemingly it happens only with “aged” ammo.

My reminder came from loading some .30-30s with 175 gn hard cast GC HP bullets and BAC lube.

Powder was BM2 ("Benchmark" in U.S.). Rifle is a 1949 Marlin 336A. Bullets are seated out to engage the rifling, and not crimped. My Remington cases have a light outside neck turn – removing high spots and leaving neck thickness of .010” max to accommodate .3125” bullets with neck clearance. Case necks are expanded with Lyman M Die 31.

With 24 gns of BM2, loaded the day before, I got 1830 fps for the clean barrel fouler, and 1782 average of 5 for the group, with SD 54. Next load was 26 gns, again loaded the day before - missed the velocity on the fouler, 1898 and 26 for the group. So far so good, about 50 fps per extra grain of powder, but still too much SD and vertical stringing (2” at 50 meters).

I then loaded 27 gns, expecting 1950 fps, and hoping for the velocities to tighten up. Shooting was delayed by a spell of windy weather, so ammo aged about 10 days.

When calmer conditions returned, the clean barrel fouler gave 2105 fps - up 200 fps for one grain, but extraction was fine. After some thought I then ran the group - average 2036 fps (138 fps extra for one grain, much too much), and SD 38.

Groups were all about 1" lateral at 50 m, but 4", 2" and 4" vertically for the three loads when shot fresh, in line with SD. Updated plot of individual shot POIs against velocities (now 23 non-fouler shots) indicates 2.2" displacement per 100 fps velocity, emphasising the need to reduce velocity spread. Good loads in this rifle group about 1” at 50 m for 5 shots.

I took the unfired 27 gn cartridges home and pulled them (collet). The first one tried WOULD NOT BUDGE. Then I bumped them in a few thou with the bullet seater. Each gave a distinct pop as the seal broke. After that they pulled normally. This looked like a message.

Next, I shot some 26 gn BM2 loads that had been “aged” five days. This load previously, when shot fresh, averaged 1898 fps and gave a 2” five shot group at 50 meters. The same load now “aged”, and refusing to pull, gave 1993 fps (clean barrel fouler) and 1939 (average of the three following – I wasted two of the intended five).

I repeated this part of the test later with 10 day old ammo with very similar results - clean barrel fouler 2035 fps, group 1943 fps. Combining the 8 non-fouler shots from the two tests gave 1942 fps and SD 18. POI comparing the eight aged rounds with the five fresh gave 4 minutes higher POI at 50 m, which would translate into about 5 minutes on the 200 m LAS rams. Groups at 50 meters for the two "aged" 26 gn tests were .59" (4) and 1.71" (5).

Incidentally, for the four groups for which I had clean barrel fouler velocities, the average increase over the "group" velocity was 66 fps.

I reread Larry Gibson’s report on his excellent lube test from 2014 (NOE site), but found no mention of when the shooting took place relative to when the cartridges were loaded.

I have answered some of my own previous question (which lubes do it and what to do about it) - I have demonstrated adhesion for five different lubes, and resolved that henceforth I shall do both my testing and my serious shooting with ammo that is at least a week old.

Edit April 29 and May 1 re testing:

Testing for adhesion by pulling bullets is complicated by collet slipping on cast bullets. A surer method seems to be applying pressure with seating die to test for "click" when the bullet moves. By this test, BAC (Beeswax, Alox, Carnauba) remains a front runner loud and clear, and ammo loaded a few months ago with LBT is "clicking". Another aged lot with 3:1 beeswax and synthetic two-stroke oil seems to be OK.

Dummies loaded by me and tested 8 days later clicked for BAC and LBT lubes, but not for Orange Magic. A different set of three dummies tested at 12 days gave definitive clicks for BAC and LBT, and a lesser sound for OM.

Alternative for home testing of a loading batch is to seat all bullets out a bit, then seat to full depth immediately before use to check for adhesion. A click will indicate adhesion at some level. I have no idea yet whether adhesion will set up again after once being broken - that is for the future.

If someone actually tests their ammo I would be REALLY interested to hear how different lubes respond.

[M-Tecs]

Never heard of it for cast bullets. Through the years I have been given many unknown loaded cartridges with cast that I have pulled with nothing unusual. I have no idea how long some of them had been loaded but in one case the person that loaded them had been dead for 20 plus years before I was given them. Only thing I have seen is the lube dried out.

[gwpercle]

My usual lube is Beeswax and Lithium grease or Beeswax and Alox , they are soft lubes , don't dry out and don't make for a very good adhesive . Never had any problems pulling them .
Military WWII 30-06 did have black asphalt bullet sealant , it did offer a little resistance but once the sealant / crimp was broken they pulled out easily ... but that sealant was put there for a reason and was sorta expected to be a "cement"
Generally speaking most bullet lubes , especially the soft lubes just don't have the strength (physical properties) to "glue" or "cement" things together .

JB Weld or Gorilla Glue would be a different story ... poor boolit lubes to boot .
Gary
Like to add : I lube with a Lyman 450 lube sizer , lube is only in the lube grooves not tumble lube or coating the complete boolit .

[Walks]

Never heard of it happening at all with cast until recently.
Had some Powder Coated .44Mags stick. They didn't want to come out with an impact hammer at all. Until I seated them .001 deeper.
That broke the "seal".
Never had it happen with 50/50.

[John Boy]

I’d sure like to see the source for this “welding” bullets in the case.
Further, with 0.001 to 0.002 tension on the seated lead or jacket bullet in the case, their is absolutely no need to perform this mystery reloading step

[Wilderness]

Thanks everyone for responses so far.

I am beginning to wonder if the culprit is the unlubricated part of the bullet between the grooves. All my bullets are sized and lubricated in the lube sizer, then some get some extra sizing in the Lee dies afterwards. In due course I will test this idea by lightly lubing them after all this with anhydrous lanolin, as if I were lubing cases for sizing, i.e. a very small amount on the hands, rubbed together, then roll cases/bullets between hands.

Edit: No joy from the lanolin.

[Winger Ed.]

During one of my rare 'clean the shop' adventures, I found a few loaded ahhhh,,,,,
.45 & .38 mistakes where primers had gotten seated upside down somehow.

These had accumulated from the 80s & 90s and had my garbage lube for slow/low speed stuff
I made from melting down all the kid's broken crayons and a can of grease that had gotten dirt in it.
I rounded 'em up, and ran them through my hammer looking kinetic puller.

If the boolits were any harder than 'normal' to knock out, I wasn't smart enough to notice.

[Land Owner]

Age hardening and an associated increase in lead-alloy boolit diameter is a known phenomena. Perhaps it is not the lube at all. You did not mention alloy or age of the cast boolits.

[Wilderness]

Land Owner

Thanks for the interest.

All bullets were of a hard alloy, about 3 parts of "hardball" range pickups to one of linotype, estimate 10% non-lead. Precise mix is adjusted to achieve the required bullet weight. Intended weight for this bullet is 170.0 gns. Linotype is 164.5 gns.

The bullets for the BM2 powder x BAC lube shooting were cast a month or two ago, but freshly sized and lubed immediately before loading.

Unless I had done things like pulling bullets and changing seating depth I too would be saying "I have never seen it".

Unfortunately I have another example where something similar may have contributed to the destruction of a very nice 1927 Colt Official Police .38 Special revolver. The user had devised a load with hi-tech coated 150 gn bullets and a local powder. Unfortunately he also "used up" some 148 gn wadcutters for the bulk reloading job. Lube on the wadcutters is unknown, but 50:50 Alox is a likely bet. Seating depth and powder space were reportedly the same. The coated bullets evidently gave no trouble but the third wadcutter fired took out the side of the chamber and the top strap. Apart from the cardinal sin of component substitution, there was also the observation, when the ammunition was disassembled, that the coated bullets pulled easily (inertia puller), but the lubricated wadcutters put up a real fight.

[Wayne Smith]

I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to shoot a reload, of any kind, the same day or the next day after loading! All of mine are aged. Just a thought.

[Wilderness]

The trap, if there is one, will be in doing our testing and maybe zeroing with freshly loaded ammo, and then using "aged" stuff for the real shooting.

[Land Owner]

Wayne Smith - those of us with an adjacent range, or "close enough" thereto, frequently cast, load, AND shoot in the same 24 hr. day. A month ago my spouse expressed a desire to "exercise" her Charter Arms 38 Special and I was all too happy to fire up the Mihec 360-156 brass mold and make 38 Spc and 357 Mag SWC's and HP's for her (and me) to shoot the next day.

I too have boolits cast, lubed & sized, and loaded rounds from years ago, some months ago, and some that I cast Tuesday, 4/13/21, PC'd yesterday, sized some, lubed some , most not sized, most not lubed, gas checked some, most not gas checked, loaded a few ladder test rounds last night, and expected to shoot those today! An out-of-town "shopping trip" (that keeps her happy) came between me and the range today. Tomorrow though...there is always tomorrow.

[gwpercle]

The little "pop" you hear when pulling a boolit could be from breaking a tiny vacuum in a tight fitting case ... if the boolit is a snug fit and if the primer is tightly in the pocket ... when the boolit moves forward it will create a small vacuum and when the boolit comes out it might go ...pop ... just like breaking the seal on a canning jar lid .
And now that I think about it ...when pulling WWII 30-06 ammo , after seating the AP bullet deeper to break the seal and crimp ... I think a remember hearing that sound ... the primers were sealed too!
I bet it was pulling a vacuum ...what cha think ?
Gary

[John Boy]

Wilderness ... Still waiting your post with the SOURCE for this welding process

[Wilderness]

John

Yes I'd like to know too. "Welding" is no doubt the wrong term for lead and brass, but some form of adhesion or binding is occurring, and I'd like either to eliminate it or to ensure that it is consistent. Understanding it would be even better.

Or did you mean the jacketed bullet story? Example:

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/have-you-had-any-experience-with-cold-welding-of-bullets-in-case-necks.3785592/

Your comments on neck tension prompted me to measure some cases (6) after preparation (Lyman 31 M die) and after loading as dummies. The change in neck OD was .0035" - .004". This is for a .3125" bullet and case necks partially turned (i.e. high spots only) to .010" max thickness.

[Wilderness]

GWPERCLE - Re: "pop" this occurs well before the bullet is clear of the case. If a bullet is seated in another .005" or so to break the seal preparatory to pulling, it also may pop with this small movement. I'm ready to say that it's just the sound of some sort of seal being broken, and that it may be an easy test for adhesion.

[greenjoytj]

The change in neck OD was .0035" - .004". This is for a .3125" bullet and case necks partially turned (i.e. high spots only) to .010" max thickness.

My interpretation of the above numbers is you have 3.5 thou to 4 thou of neck tension.
If that is the amount of neck tension squeeze being applied, then I believe you have too much neck tension. 1 to 2 thou of neck tension is what my load manuals recommend.

Cartridge cases that have been resized several times will develop a thick ring of brass at the bottom of the case neck. This ring of thickened brass must be reamed out occasionally.
Your brass may have developed this donut ring of brass. This ring could be locking into a lube groove or your high neck tension could be pressing the ring onto a solid area on the bullet, locking the ring into the bullet.
If this is occurring in your handloads I could see that it could cause difficulties pulling bullets.

[Wilderness]

Greenjoytj - thanks. I have Forster inside neck reamers for .30 and .31, so will check. Note however that bullets that do not reach the bottom of the neck are also "sticking", and in any case I would have thought the Lyman M die should iron out any tight spots. I'll look into the neck tension aspect as well, bearing in mind that these have to survive in a tube magazine.

I have run a test, loading sized and lubed bullets, ageing for a week then trying both deeper seating and pulling. All five lubes tried have demonstrated set up with time. Initial test was a week of ageing.

I shot some more tests this morning and will in due course update the original post. Suffice to say that the 26 gn BM2 load when aged, compared with the same load shot the day after loading, delivered approx 50 fps more velocity and a POI lift of 4 minutes at 50 m, which will be about 5 minutes on the rams at 200. SD and group were also better with age.

In future I will prepare both my competition and test ammunition at least a week in advance.

Is your 1 to 2 thou each side or total? My measurement is total, i.e. 2 thou or less on one edge.

[greenjoytj]

Maximum neck tension should be 2 thou total.
Otherwise the bullet will act as a neck sizer stretching the brass out so much that you could end up with less neck tension than if tension was set to be just 2 thou total.
Also high neck tension can swagge a soft bullet smaller over time but I don’t think that is happening to your hard alloy bullets.
Measuring the bullets shank of an aged bullet at the area where the case neck gripped the bullet would tell you if high neck tension was swagging down the bullet.

Case mouths crimped into a crimp groove or cannelure prevents bullets from being push deeper into the case by spring pressure in a tube magazine.

[John Boy]

Buy a Lyman 30 LONG neck expander die ....
https://budgetshootersupply.ca/product/lyman-neck-expander-30-long-neck-expander-m-die/

First step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter.

[Wilderness]

Greenjoytj - thanks again.

Do you have some personal experimental info on bullet tension?

My Lyman M Die 30 for my .310" bullets has a .307" plug, and the 31 die for .312"/.3125" bullets has a .3095" plug. Short of sizing the larger bullets down, which in the past has enlarged groups, I have no room to move.

I measured some pulled bullets and found NO CHANGE relative to unused bullets.

Measurements are with micrometer, not vernier.

I am starting to think that bullet adhesion is the "good" state, and that using ammo before it has had a chance to set up may be what I have to avoid.

I am aware of crimping, and have crimped .32-20 and .44-40 cases, since these are thin and weak, but have been able to avoid doing .30-30. Crimping and excess belling are great destroyers of cases. My observation with .30-30 is that bullet adhesion, and bullets utilising only part of the neck, are providing a lot more resistance to collapse than crimping could. Besides, crimping requires trimming, which I also avoid in .30-30 apart from truing up any unevenness. There may even be some advantage in lengthened cases. My .30-30 chamber lengths are 2.121" and 2.153". Case stretch is going to kill the cases long before they get to this length.

And thanks JohnBoy for response also. M dies are great tools. I have a bunch of them. My first run at headspacing .30-30 on the shoulder, to deal with excess headspace, involved running fired cases over .32, .33, .35 and .37 M dies, then sizing back to the dimensions I wanted. I've also used one in .22 when I was being a bit pedantic about accurate jacketed bullet loads for a M65 Bee.

Incidentally, a spot of neck turning, 25% or 30% of circumference to take off the high spots, results in more even case stretch and case mouths when doing neck expansions.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Boolit adhesion:
I haven't seen any mention of your process for case cleaning? Afterall, that is what the lube is allegedly adhering to. Beeswax, or a lube with a large percentage of beeswax, sure could act like an adhesive when aged, maybe even as quickly as a few days. If the brass case is super cleaned by wet tumble and SS pins, then adhesion surely would be greater than cases that get a quick tumble in corncob media where you can see tarnish, carbon, or just age patina remaining inside the neck. I know that dark stuff sure makes sizing much easier, than when sizing super cleaned cases.

If this is a real phenomenon, maybe try a soap lube, like SL69B. Judging by how that lube ages on sized/lubed boolits (that haven't been loaded), I can't imagine any "gluing" action happening with it. I surely haven't noticed any difference of difficulty in pulling boolits from freshly loaded ammo, to aged (a year or more) ammo...which I have done, just recently in fact.

[greenjoytj]

You could fire an un-lube bullet.
Not a bunch of them just 4, one aged cartridges and one new ctg. the both fire and pull a week or 2 later.
Just to remove the your lube from the problem with the shifting POI and difficulty in pulling bullets.
As far as a week or two of cartridge aging that short amount of aging time is insignificant against the working life span of a modern cartridge.

[John Boy]

Wilderness, I can’t remember the last time I used my one & only Lyman M Die
I shoot a lot of black powder calibers and from Track of the Wolf, have a box full of $4.99 compression/expander plugs used with the Lee die. For several calibers that I need an exact expansion for 0.001 to 0.002, I take a close dimension plug and shave the diameter.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1216/1/NECK-EXPANDER-PLUG

[GregLaROCHE]

If you should decide to do some comparison testing, muzzle velocities would be interesting to know besides POI.

[Wilderness]

Again, thanks to all for responding.

I'm pretty much satisfied now that I have my solution, in an empirical sense at least - let the ammo sit for a week before I test or use it. The original issue related to unexplained zero failures for LAS Rams. I was shooting my test loads a day or so after loading, while the competition loads would sit around for up to a month. The answer is to let the test loads sit for a while also. Since pulling difficulty is similar between one week and much longer I suspect not much change after the first week. I am now seeing the initial non-adhesion as the issue.

The immediate object is to get back to a Ram load that will group about 1" for 5 shots at 50 m and be on zero when I come to use it. I've been there before but have recently lost the plot.

It may even be that BM2 powder, which I'm working on now, behaves differently to other powders when confronted with the adhesion issue/non-issue. Interestingly, BM2 listed data for 170 gn jacketed bullets is very close to realised velocities with 175 gn cast bullets (loads aged), whereas other powders give about 100 fps discrepancy (cast go faster for the same load).

That said, it is always interesting to get to the bottom of something previously unexplained, and I'll be doing more digging.

On specific points:

JBIG - I'm not a case tumbler. I wipe down my .30-30 fired cases, lube them by rolling them between my hands with a very small amount of vaseline (my .308s require lanolin). Case necks are brushed out with some residual vaseline on the brush (from the hands). If the expander ball drags I apply more brushing. Then they get the M die. Residual lube would be scant. Never been an issue before.

More heresy: Cases from my subsonic loads, which we are not discussing, but which also "set up" over time, apparently without affecting velocity or POI, are processed without any inside neck treatment - there is enough residual bullet lube there to do the business. These loads use 5 gns AP70/Universal with 115 gn .310", and 5.5 gns Unique with 163 gn .312".

JJTJ - interesting idea re unlubed bullets at least at the level of seating, ageing or not, and pulling. As for firing them, given the differences in POI just of different lubes (can be quite a bit) I think the shooting part of the experiment would be difficult to interpret.

JB - interesting. I need to look at the Lee system.

Greg - this is an edit to include your post. As per the edited initial post, velocities for 26 gns BM2 and 175 gn cast bullets in .30-30 were 1898 fresh and 1942 aged, and about 2" POI difference at 50 meters.

[Larry Gibson]

I have run into pretty much the same phenomenon. I had loaded some commercial 45-70 cast bullets that had the commercial type hard wax lube and which I had TL'd in LLA. The W-W 45-70 cases had been cleaned as always in crushed walnut in a vibrator cleaner. The cases had been NS'd to the depth of the seated bullets. They were loaded for use in my H&R Officers Model TD over 4895 with a dacron filler. At the same time I loaded the commercial cast i also loaded some Lee 459-405-HB and some 458124s, both lubed with my BP lube.

At the range [Ben Avery during a CBA match] I had a case separation. Nothing there at the range would get the front half of the case out so I was a DNF for that match. When back home i thought I'd double check the powder charge so I tried pulling the bullet using a inertia puller......it wouldn't budge. Both types of my own cast bullets with my BP lube pulled out just fine with the inertia puller. I then tried a collet puller in the press....still no go. I then removed the collet puller, raised the cartridge up through the die hole and used a pair of side cutters to bite into the bullet and pulling down on the cartridge expected the bullet to come out.....no go. I took a much solider bite into the bullet and literally cut the nose off the bullet trying to pull it.

I then put a seating die in the press and seated the commercial cast bullets a small bit. Every one "cracked" as the seal was broke just US milsurp 7.62 will when seated a bit deeper to break the bullet sealant before shooting. After breaking the commercial cast loose by seating them a bit they pulled out as normal.

Next i turned my attention to getting the stuck case out off the TD. I used a cerrosafe casting to do it. It took a bit of tapping on the rod to push the casting out. When out it was easy to see why none of the "field expedient" measures had worked to remove the stuck case. The front part of the case had literally been drug up 1/2" + into the bore and swaged into the rifling before the bullet broke loose from the case.

Subsequently I shot the remainder of the commercial cast rounds after the "seal" had been broken by seating the bullet a bit. Nary a problem with them and good accuracy. None of the other rounds loaded at the same time with my own bullets lubed with my BP lube had to be seated deep as there was no "seal" as such. All shot quite well.

282076

282077

I have no idea why as i have shot literally thousands of commercial cast bullets relubed with LLA in numerous cartridges over the years w/o any similar problems. I have no idea as to why the bullets were glued, sealed, stuck in, whatever this time in the 45-70.

[Wilderness]

Larry - many thanks for coming in on this issue. It's a relief that someone else has had an almost parallel experience to mine, and a warning that it could be something bigger than I experienced. I wonder if Alox is the common factor (my lube was BAC). It is tantalising however that the BM2/Benchmark load seems to benefit from adhesion.

It is also interesting that you found out about the adhesion only when you tried to pull a bullet. How many others have experienced the same thing without realising it?

I will feel my way forward with other lubes, testing for velocity and POI with ageing. This will include some newly purchased Orange Magic, which in the past has done well at this level.

From an experimental standpoint, it seems that I have something repeatable, so it does not have to remain a complete mystery.

The annoying thing is that this leaves a question over my old data and conclusions drawn from it - was the ammo old or new when fired?

P.S. Many thanks also for your great posts on HV bullet lubes, LeverEvolution powder and the RPM story. I've had very good results with LVR and HP cast bullets in a Savage 99 with 12" twist at 2200 fps, but less so with the Marlin (1949) with 10" twist. Savage is for hunting, Marlin for LAS. Last year I cleaned up 165 (real) pigs with the hollow points. This year I will use up some Sierra 150s I was given. After that I will be using Sierra 170s and cast HPs loaded up to bring POI into line with the Sierras. All with LVR.

[Wilderness]

For those who are interested, I have added an edit to the original message concerning testing for adhesion, comprising the following:

Testing for adhesion by pulling bullets is complicated by collet slipping on cast bullets. A surer method seems to be applying pressure with seating die to test for "click" when bullet moves.

Dummies loaded by me and tested 8 days later clicked for BAC and LBT lubes, but not for Orange Magic. A different set of three dummies tested at 12 days gave definitive clicks for BAC and LBT, and a lesser sound for OM.

Alternative for home testing of a loading batch is to seat all bullets out a bit, then seat to full depth immediately before use to check for adhesion. A click will indicate adhesion at some level. I have no idea yet whether adhesion will set up again after once being broken - that is the next test.

If someone actually tests their ammo I would be REALLY interested to hear how different lubes respond.

[JimB..]

If you really believe that this is a thing, and it sounds like you do and it may be, you need to figure out how to make bullets with a wire bail imbedded in them like a fishing sinker so you can hook up a strain gauge above your press and measure the force it takes to pull them.

Best to cast them in, but drilling and screwing in an eyelet before sizing might also work.

Then you can start testing variables. My guess is that it’s not the lube, but it’s an interesting puzzle.

Oh, and number your brass, it’s a variable.

Jim

[John Boy]

Bullets loaded with 0.001 to 0.002 can be easily pulled out of the cases if there are no crimps. BPCR reloads with no crimps are the most accurate in single shot rifles. They are called ‘finger seated’ reloads and when the bullet is removed from the the cases with your fingers, you will hear a ‘pop’

[Wilderness]

John Boy - no argument about low tension, but not when I want them to stay put in a tube magazine. I avoid crimping for reasons I have already advanced. Perhaps I should have used the expressions "crack" or "click" to describe the sound when the seal is broken. It occurs when the bullet has barely moved, long before the bullet exits the neck.

JimB - nice idea to embed a wire bail in the bullet to circumvent the slipping bullet puller collet, and entirely doable with a hollow point mould, but is it necessary?

Is the force required to break an adhesion by pulling any more or less than the force required to do it by pushing (seating deeper)? I suspect not, other than for the additional force required to expand a bit more neck with deeper seating. And which force is easier to measure, pushing or pulling? As applied to a reloading press and subjective "measuring" I would back pushing. I do not have seating dies that measure force required, and in any case they might go off the scale on a stuck bullet.

With this in mind, I would propose the following methodology to check for bullet adhesion:

1. Load a batch of ammo you intend to use (or dummies), but leave the bullets seated out at least .100".

2. Immediately seat the required sample size another .010". Measure/assess the force required. This is for comparison with the steps that follow, or for netting off the measured force.

3. One week later reseat another sample the required .010". Assess and record, and set aside.

4. A week later do another group ..... etc

5. Perhaps at step 4, take the .010" deeper group and give them another .010" - has adhesion reestablished? As for the rest of them, make it up as you go along to see when or if adhesion is reestablished. Is one "crack" enough to banish adhesion for good?

6. Finish seating when you need to use the ammo.

[Wilderness]

John Boy

Here is another discussion among the jacketed bullet shooters of "sticky bullets".

https://www.longrangeonly.com/forum/threads/case-neck-bullet.1338/

Of relevance to us is that it upsets ballistics.

Test for adhesion of cast bullets, as per previous post, is under way.

If anyone else is in a position to bump some seated bullets in a couple of thou, and test for the click as the adhesion breaks, or not as the case may be, please post. Relevant information is type of lube and how long ago the ammo was loaded.

[JimB..]

Brass thickness, composition, hardness and expansion as well as bullet hardness and size are all variables to be considered when pushing but are eliminated when pulling. Maybe easier to just put a strain gauge on the press handle, in which case I’d raise the cartridge, grab the bullet with side cutters and then raise the press handle by pulling on the strain gauge.

[deaddeerwalking]

I have recently been reminded of the occurrence of lubricated cast bullets setting up some sort of bond with the case neck after loaded cartridges have been standing for a time. The relevance of this is that it can affect velocity and POI, and probably group as well.

The outcome can be a very different POI when you come to use the ammo versus what was obtained when testing immediately following loading. I have an instance to relate.

With cast bullets, this adhesion may occur in as little as a week.

I have found extensive discussion of such “welding” as it relates to jacketed bullets, but nothing at all on cast bullets. Welding/gluing, whether of jacketed or cast, can be discovered when attempting to pull bullets that don’t want to be pulled, or by attempting a small increase in seating depth. I occasionally pull cast bullets soon after loading them, for all the usual reasons, and do not recall any difficulty pulling newly loaded ammo. Seemingly it happens only with “aged” ammo.

My reminder came from loading some .30-30s with 175 gn hard cast GC HP bullets and BAC lube.

Powder was BM2 ("Benchmark" in U.S.). Rifle is a 1949 Marlin 336A. Bullets are seated out to engage the rifling, and not crimped. My Remington cases have a light outside neck turn – removing high spots and leaving neck thickness of .010” max to accommodate .3125” bullets with neck clearance. Case necks are expanded with Lyman M Die 31.

With 24 gns of BM2, loaded the day before, I got 1830 fps for the clean barrel fouler, and 1782 average of 5 for the group, with SD 54. Next load was 26 gns, again loaded the day before - missed the velocity on the fouler, 1898 and 26 for the group. So far so good, about 50 fps per extra grain of powder, but still too much SD and vertical stringing (2” at 50 meters).

I then loaded 27 gns, expecting 1950 fps, and hoping for the velocities to tighten up. Shooting was delayed by a spell of windy weather, so ammo aged about 10 days.

When calmer conditions returned, the clean barrel fouler gave 2105 fps - up 200 fps for one grain, but extraction was fine. After some thought I then ran the group - average 2036 fps (138 fps extra for one grain, much too much), and SD 38.

Groups were all about 1" lateral at 50 m, but 4", 2" and 4" vertically for the three loads when shot fresh, in line with SD. Updated plot of individual shot POIs against velocities (now 23 non-fouler shots) indicates 2.2" displacement per 100 fps velocity, emphasising the need to reduce velocity spread. Good loads in this rifle group about 1” at 50 m for 5 shots.

I took the unfired 27 gn cartridges home and pulled them (collet). The first one tried WOULD NOT BUDGE. Then I bumped them in a few thou with the bullet seater. Each gave a distinct pop as the seal broke. After that they pulled normally. This looked like a message.

Next, I shot some 26 gn BM2 loads that had been “aged” five days. This load previously, when shot fresh, averaged 1898 fps and gave a 2” five shot group at 50 meters. The same load now “aged”, and refusing to pull, gave 1993 fps (clean barrel fouler) and 1939 (average of the three following – I wasted two of the intended five).

I repeated this part of the test later with 10 day old ammo with very similar results - clean barrel fouler 2035 fps, group 1943 fps. Combining the 8 non-fouler shots from the two tests gave 1942 fps and SD 18. POI comparing the eight aged rounds with the five fresh gave 4 minutes higher POI at 50 m, which would translate into about 5 minutes on the 200 m LAS rams. Groups at 50 meters for the two "aged" 26 gn tests were .59" (4) and 1.71" (5).

Incidentally, for the four groups for which I had clean barrel fouler velocities, the average increase over the "group" velocity was 66 fps.

I reread Larry Gibson’s report on his excellent lube test from 2014 (NOE site), but found no mention of when the shooting took place relative to when the cartridges were loaded.

I have answered some of my own previous question (which lubes do it and what to do about it) - I have demonstrated adhesion for five different lubes, and resolved that henceforth I shall do both my testing and my serious shooting with ammo that is at least a week old.

Edit April 29 and May 1 re testing:

Testing for adhesion by pulling bullets is complicated by collet slipping on cast bullets. A surer method seems to be applying pressure with seating die to test for "click" when the bullet moves. By this test, BAC (Beeswax, Alox, Carnauba) remains a front runner loud and clear, and ammo loaded a few months ago with LBT is "clicking". Another aged lot with 3:1 beeswax and synthetic two-stroke oil seems to be OK.

Dummies loaded by me and tested 8 days later clicked for BAC and LBT lubes, but not for Orange Magic. A different set of three dummies tested at 12 days gave definitive clicks for BAC and LBT, and a lesser sound for OM.

Alternative for home testing of a loading batch is to seat all bullets out a bit, then seat to full depth immediately before use to check for adhesion. A click will indicate adhesion at some level. I have no idea yet whether adhesion will set up again after once being broken - that is for the future.

If someone actually tests their ammo I would be REALLY interested to hear how different lubes respond.

Just curious if any who has had this happen and popped the bullets loose by seating them deeper then let the rounds age to see if they got stuck again.

[Dusty Bannister]

I suppose it depends a lot upon the type of bullet lube involved. I use the lithi-bee and if it is a problem, have never noticed it. Visualizing the sequence of events makes me even wonder if it really is a problem.

The primer is ignited, the powder begins to burn and pressure builds up. The pressure expands the case against the walls as the bullet begins the travel down the barrel.

If there is this "sticking factor" then why do we need a firm crimp on slow powders, why do many seat the bullet into the lands so more pressure is generated before the bullet begins moving. Perhaps I am just not all that engaged in the fine details and theory and just have a good time shooting.

It has been suggested that seating a jacketed bullet that has sealant applied when produced will break that seal and can result in more uniform case neck tension. But that is not quite the same issue being discussed.

The problem with testing for moving resistance due to sticking bullets by seating deeper is sort of skewed if you have any crimp on the bullet in the case.

[Wilderness]

Just curious if any who has had this happen and popped the bullets loose by seating them deeper then let the rounds age to see if they got stuck again.

DDW - yes I did test this, and yes they did set up again. Conversely, examples which had not set up adhesion (i.e. did not click when seated the extra .010" or so) continued to be adhesion free with subsequent reseats. Scrubbing inside case necks with a lubricated brush prior to resizing reduces cast bullet neck adhesion.

[243winxb]

Bullet pull can be over 100 pounds to move a bullet. In 30-06 or 45 acp. Jacketed or cast. Happens at around .005" or higher neck tension.

Annealed brass should not get cracked necks that move with the bullet. Annealing doesnt help brittle brass that has been effected by a chemical. Ammonia or vinegar or ethanol/alcohol products.

Range brass may come in contact with ammonia. Ammonia can occur in nature & produce cracked necks.

[Geezer in NH]

Lube = slippery making things slip

Glue= sticky makes thing stick to each other.

[gwpercle]

Lube = slippery making things slip

Glue= sticky makes thing stick to each other.

That was how I looked at it ... boolit lube just doesn't have adhesive factors ...
... in fact lube has the opposite factors it are slippery !
But what do us old geezers know .
Gary

[Wilderness]

Lubricated Cast Bullets Bonding to Case Necks – Results of Investigation

Previous post:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?423755-Bullet-lube-gluing-bullets-in-case-necks

Thanks to everyone for helping me conceptualise this issue better, and for suggesting lines of enquiry. References to contributions to the previous post are in square brackets [ ].

Originally stated as “ lubes gluing bullets in case necks”, the observation as described [1] could better be termed “lubricated cast bullets bonding to case necks”.

This occurrence is demonstrated in aged versus freshly loaded ammunition. Symptoms include elevated velocities, POI shift, and bullets being very stubborn to pull. Bullets put up a fight if an increase in seating depth is attempted, and there is a noticeable auditory crack as the seal is broken by seating pressure [1, 28].

Bonding where it exists must be between the band of the bullet and the case neck. In sizing the bullet the bands remain unlubed. If tumble or pan lubing, everything is lubed including the bands, but the lube on the bands may still be wiped off or squeezed off in seating the bullets.

It looks as if this bonding occurs from lack of lube between the surfaces, rather than from any adhesive properties of the lubes, although it IS affected by type of lube. It has been suggested that neck tension [5, 18, 20] may also be involved.

It appears that bonding can begin within a day of loading, that it re-establishes after being broken, but perhaps not after multiple breaks, and that it can be variable. I have two instances where type of lube has apparently precluded bonding.

Here are some things I have tested. Initial tests were with BAC lube, bullets sized .312”, and neck tension .004” (Lyman M31 expander die).

1. Seating an unlubed bullet and testing after one week [24]. Result: Bullet really held out against being seated deeper and gave a resounding crack when it went. Tested again four days later (same dummy) gave the same result. Bare lead bonds to case neck, and bond re-establishes after having been broken.

2. Loading lubed bullets in dummy cartridges and testing deeper seating, one dummy at a time, from one day after loading to five days. The test continued, retesting the same dummies to achieve six days seven day etc intervals. It was demonstrated that bonding could occur in as little as one day. Test cases were individually identified [31, 35]. Over a few weeks, dummies that bonded kept on bonding with repeat testing, and dummies that reseated smoothly kept on doing so.

3. Neck tension [5, 18, 20] was tested with another group – test bullets were .312”, used with Lyman M Dies 30 and 31 (neck tension .004” and .006” approx.). There was no clear pattern related to neck tension or time after loading (one to three weeks). Overall 11 of the 26 dummies “clicked”. Lack of equipment precluded testing .001” or .002” neck tension.

4. In an unintended test, five cartridges were loaded but incompletely seated, and were the following day finish seated then pulled. These were .310” bullets at .003” neck tension, with a different lube (mix of scraps). Two seated cleanly and three gave small cracks, highlighting the variabilty of the condition. Reducing neck tension to .003” had not eliminated bonding [5, 18, 20].

5. A fortuitous lube comparison was made with two groups of six cartridges each, 27 gns BM2, #311041 .310” hard alloy partially seated, .003” neck tension, lubed with Lyman Orange Magic and my scraps mix respectively. After nine days, being the day before I was to fire them, the LOM group all reseated smoothly, while 3/6 of the scraps group clicked. Again, the .003” tension had not fixed the problem.

6. Six cartridges with bullets lubed LOM, neck tension .004”, were loaded and partially seated, then finish seated four days later – they reseated smoothly.

7. Some subsonic .30-30 and .32-40 ammo, with bullets lubed with beeswax : synthetic two stroke oil 4:1, reseated smoothly after months of ageing. Cases for this and the next test had been prepared without any inside neck cleaning or lubing.

8. Subsonic .30-30 ammo, lubed with BAC, that had been loaded a couple of months, had bonded firmly. This was shot for velocity, group, and POI, five shot groups following one fouler for each group. Load was 163 gn PB bullets and 5.5 gns Unique. With only one five shot group for each treatment, the small differences are no more than suggestive.

Velocity x SD Group POI
Bonded 1022 x 16 1.91” -1.55”
Cracked 1000 x 7 1.19” -2.16”

Bonding could interfere with intended bullet pull, and could do so unevenly. Remedial options might include: Lube inside case necks before neck expanding; lube bullets in a die that is bigger than the bullet, e.g. .310” bullet in .311” die; find a lube that obviates bonding; long seat, then finish seat just before use; or find a powder that is not sensitive to bonding. The first three, combined with long seating, can be tested by “cracking” at intervals after loading.

I acknowledge that some means of pulling bullets [31, 35] that does not involve slipping collets may be superior to the “Crack Test”. This would be particularly so if the object was to quantify the effect of bonding versus just confirming its existence.

The significance for ammo to be used in .30-30 lever action rifles, is that velocity variation equals vertical stringing. My own calculation is that for high teen velocities, in tests with Varget/2208 and BM2/Benchmark, 100 fps change in velocity equates with approximately 2” and 2.2” difference in POI at 50 meters. Thus the difference between an SD of 10 (40 fps spread) and an SD of 35 (140 fps spread), could be an addition of 2” to vertical shot dispersion. This is against a backdrop of loads giving less than 1” lateral dispersion.

Type of lube does appear to have some bearing on bonding. Bonding has been observed with BAC, Lyman Super Moly and LBT Blue. Non-bonding was observed with Lyman Orange Magic and my mix of synthetic two-stroke oil and beeswax. Alox was not tested, though it is in the BAC mix.

Bonding effect may depend on the load. I have observed what I believe to be a substantial effect in .30-30 with BM2/Benchmark powder, but a lesser or perhaps non-effect with subsonic Unique loads.

The initial test for some degree of bonding on aged ammo is to take some spare cartridges and reseat the bullets .010” deeper (1/8 turn on a 7/8x14 die). Do they resist? How pronounced is the “crack” when they let go?

What have I done about it? For a start I have abandoned BM2 (Benchmark) as a sub 2000 fps cast bullet powder and gone instead to 2208/Varget, and I am now lubing with Lyman Orange Magic.

[GONRA]

GONRA knows this is NOT exactly wots being discussed here, but ya'll might be interested:

(From looong ago memory, so be sure to double check !)

In 1920's (?) Frankford Arsenal loaded Tin Plated Bullets in National Match ammo.
Not sure how long it took (not much?) but the tin diffused into the brass case neck.

HIGH PRESSURES! Bullet was soldered to the case neck!

[JimB..]

GONRA knows this is NOT exactly wots being discussed here, but ya'll might be interested:

(From looong ago memory, so be sure to double check !)

In 1920's (?) Frankford Arsenal loaded Tin Plated Bullets in National Match ammo.
Not sure how long it took (not much?) but the tin diffused into the brass case neck.

HIGH PRESSURES! Bullet was soldered to the case neck!

Maybe tin-brass galvanic corrosion. Interesting story, short read https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/12/30/tin-cans-and-the-national-matches-1921