IMR 4227 in .44-40 >>> Issues arose.

[Agarbers]

I am doing some loading for a Colt Lightning pump action rifle copy. The round is .44-40. Several of the reloading manuals recommend IMR-4227 so I made up 30 rounds. I had issues that I have never had before. I had two rounds where the primer ignited with enough force to shove the bullet into the barrel but not ignite the powder. I had other rounds that had unburned powder after edjecting them. The powder is new, from a new jug. I live in Arizona so humidity is not an issue. I have read on another forum that rounds have to have a good crimp for proper ignition. I have since purchased a profile crimp die and factory crimp die and I will be trying again. I was thinking of using magnum primers but another forum thread said magnum primers are not required.

Have any of you had this experience?

[243winxb]

200 gr uses IMR-4227 From 17.6 grains to 20.9 grains. Light load will not produce enough pressure to burn the powder correctly.

How much powder are you loading.

Neck tension/bullet pull, hold should be 35 pounds or more. Measure the case neck before and after seating the bullet. After seating the outside diameter should increase by a .002" or more.

Seat and crimp in separate operations.

There are better powder with a faster burn rate.

[lawdog941]

200 gr uses IMR-4227 From 17.6 grains to 20.9 grains. Light load will not produce enough pressure to burn the powder correctly.

How much powder are you loading.

Neck tension/bullet pull, hold should be 35 pounds or more. Measure the case neck before and after seating the bullet. After seating the outside diameter should increase by a .002" or more.

Seat and crimp in separate operations.

There are better powder with a faster burn rate.

Agree, I4227 likes a firm crimp to get the powder ignited. It likes to be loaded near max. It doesn't require a mag primer for consistency.

[Agarbers]

I am using 18 grains. My crimp dies arrived yesterday so I will try it again when I get a chance. Thanks.

[Agarbers]

Unique and Bullseye are not available around here. I wanted 2400 but that also is not available. A few of the more modern manuals recommended IMR 4227. But, the .30 Blackout shooters like it so you have to jump when you find it.

[Larry Gibson]

IMR 4227 (Hodgdon also) are notorious for not igniting and burning in low pressure handgun loads, especially with light for caliber cast bullets. I know the 200 gr is considered 'standard" for the 44-40 cartridge but with 4227 powder that is a light bullet for the caliber. I use 240 gr cast bullets in my 44-40 revolver and M92 levergun. I also do not use 4227 in the 44-40 because the psi is not sufficient many times for proper ignition of the powder.

A solid crimp may help as will a magnum primer. However, at 18 gr of 4227 the mass of a 200 gr cast bullet may still prohibit proper ignition plus that charge doesn't generate sufficient psi for a consistent burn. A heavier 240 gr cast bullet may also be a solution. I use the Lee TL 429-240-SWC and the Lyman 429360. Most 240 commercial cast SWCs will work well in the 44-40 also. As mentioned the faster powders will be better. Powders such as Bullseye, Unique, Herco, 700X, Green Dot, Red Dot, etc. will perform much better but, as you mention, finding any can be a problem.

[cowboy4evr]

I shoot the 44-40 out of my 1894 Marlin . It's one of the real old ones as it only has a 3 digit serial # . I have had great success using IMR 4227 powder . I had no problem using recommended loads . I cast and used very successfully the LEE 200 gr RNFP , sized .427 . That is the weight of bullet it originally used , very successfully so I see no need to fix what isn't broken . I use that same powder in magnum revolvers and ALWAYS use a magnum primer and not one of those " in between brands " winchester , remington etc . They will say for std primer and magnum primer useage . I use CCI 350 primers which is a " full " magnum primer and have found much better ignition , cleaner burning . So my recommendation is use a " FULL " magnum primer only , CCI 350 and continue using the 200 gr bullet . Over crimping the case mouth will result in LESS neck tension . Remember , the case side walls are very very thin . You are defeating what you are trying to accomplish . I use the LEE fcd die and it gives me a perfect factory type crimp , retaining good neck tension . I want you to know that I'm no " newbie " at this . My post is what works very successfully for me -- it should work for you too . Regards Paul

[beltfed]

22 grains of IMR 4227/WLR primer under 200 grain 429434 FNGCHP sized to 0.430" gives reliable ignition and very good
accuracy from my M92 first yr production. Same load works with 200 gr jacketed. Velocity is
about 1330fps from the 24 " barrel. About "standard" factory load equivalent.
Shot my second last deer with it . One shot at 65 yards thru heart, one kill
beltfed/arnie

[Agarbers]

Thanks for the help. According to Lyman, the Lightning is the Group I firearm with a weaker action so I need to keep my pressures below 13,000. The Marlin and M92 are Group II actions and can handle higher pressures.

281595

[Larry Gibson]

Ergo you make the point; with your rifle using the 200 gr bullet the safe pressure level is too low for 4227 to ignite and burn efficiently.

Sometimes using what we want or what we have just doesn't pan out.

[kenblacksmith]

I have one of those Lightning Copies made here in the USA. It doesn't like anything but Unique. Mine is however a 45 colt. Spits quite a bit of material out of the action, does yours do this ?

[Shanghai Jack]

Its interesting - I breach seat for 32-40 using 14.5 grains of 4227. There's no crimp at all. People have told me that 4227 requires a crimp, is very position sensitive, and also very temperature sensitive. I guess in the whole scheme of things my mileage varies

[Tar Heel]

Simply put, there are much better powders for the 44-40. I like Titegroup the best. If 4227 is all you have, well then crimp hard.

[Savvy Jack]

I have been using IMR-4227 in the 44-40 for years with no issues. IMR-4227 is NOT a pistol powder. It is a slower burning rifle powder used for magnum loads. IMR-4227 is IMR's Magnum powder, just like 2400.

The 44-40 using a 200gr bullet loaded with TODAY'S neutered loads are border-line to just below border-line for this powder. It is NOT designed for lighter loads.

THE BELOW IS NOT RECOMENDED LOAD DATA BUT INFORMATIVE ONLY!

In order for IMR-4227 to work as it should, for the 44-40 using a Winchester JSP 44-40 bullet, it prefers 22gr to begin to burn properly. This load produces 1,386fps from my 20" test barrel and creates about 12,035 psi (NOT CUP). (Your Mileage May Vary) 11,000psi is SAAMI's recommended MAX PRESSURE for this cartridge for Lyman's "Group I" weak action rifles. This "intel's" a few factors, i.e. bullet size, bore size etc.

Back, apparently before people were "born stupid", the 44-40 rifles were loaded a tad hotter than they are now and still considered normal loads. Even revolvers were loaded to "15,000" pounds of which should be in CUP rather than "psi". https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/powders/smokeless-powders-transition-years

The "Better" powder for the 44-40 depends on what you are using it in and what you are using it for....revolver or rifle,...what distance is required as well as trajectory and velocity.

Revolver use - pistol powders like Unique and Bullseye.
Group I Rifle - Unique, Reloder 7, IMR-4227 and 2400
Group II Rifles - Reloder 7, IMR-4227

IMR-4227 powder is not for plinking and is better used at max pressures for Group I rifles and hotter loads for Group II rifles. I do not recommend it for rifles or revolvers for lighter than max standard pressure loads.

I am sorry for not better explaining, it has been one of those long tiring days.

281633

Other Load Data Tests for discussion purposes.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZyKKXVyHq9as9uFJiko5yReJ9a-ER32YsENTgJGJs4/edit#gid=651705900

[Savvy Jack]

I am using 18 grains. My crimp dies arrived yesterday so I will try it again when I get a chance. Thanks.

The Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp is designed for 44-40 bullets, not just any bullet that can be used in the 44-40. Most modern "44-40 bullets" are cast from a commercial Magma mold and have a forward driving band that is outside of the case mouth. The die will hit this band if the diameter is too large and give you problems.

281634

Here is a Lyman type bullet with a true 44-40 nose "Profile" as well as the Winchester JSP 44-40 bullet that loves the Redding Profile Crimp. Two different crimps from the same die.

281635 281636


Here is an almost complete guide to handloading the 44-40 tips and tricks.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

[Agarbers]

I have one of those Lightning Copies made here in the USA. It doesn't like anything but Unique. Mine is however a 45 colt. Spits quite a bit of material out of the action, does yours do this ?

Yes. Using IMR-4227 I get a lot of unburned powder into the action. When I first got the rifle (used) it had a great deal of fibrous material in the action. As annoying as it is to shove cartridges into the loading gate, I assume the previous owner used push sticks to push them home and the stocks rubbed the metal and shaved off fibers. It was packed in tight.

[Agarbers]

The Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp is designed for 44-40 bullets, not just any bullet that can be used in the 44-40. Most modern "44-40 bullets" are cast from a commercial Magma mold and have a forward driving band that is outside of the case mouth. The die will hit this band if the diameter is too large and give you problems.

281634

Here is a Lyman type bullet with a true 44-40 nose "Profile" as well as the Winchester JSP 44-40 bullet that loves the Redding Profile Crimp. Two different crimps from the same die.

281635 281636


Here is an almost complete guide to handloading the 44-40 tips and tricks.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

I had read your pages after seeing them on sassnet. I cast my own boolits. Those that I have been using are from the Lee mold. I have since sold it and bought the Lyman but have enough from the Lee that I have not used the Lyman. Thanks for the information. I have some things to ponder.

[Savvy Jack]

I have some things to ponder.

The story of my life!!! I know how ya feel. Pondering is what got me into this mess!!!!!

[Ajohns]

I'm not gonna try steer you somewhere other than what has worked for me. It is an extra step.
Using IMR 4227 in both 38 and 44 WCF, I've found that lowering the powder charge to 17.5 grs and then add 6 grs of poly shot buffer work great. Lower spreads in speed (1300+/-) and great accuracy. And no mess. Or very little as compared.
That's using 180 and 200 cast, Winchester standard/mag primer. My 1873 loves these.

[Savvy Jack]

I'm not gonna try steer you somewhere other than what has worked for me. It is an extra step.
Using IMR 4227 in both 38 and 44 WCF, I've found that lowering the powder charge to 17.5 grs and then add 6 grs of poly shot buffer work great. Lower spreads in speed (1300+/-) and great accuracy. And no mess. Or very little as compared.
That's using 180 and 200 cast, Winchester standard/mag primer. My 1873 loves these.

Shot buffer does increase pressures. I never did do side-by-side tests but you can look on this list in the photo I posted above (test #22) and get an idea of what it MIGHT do. I believe it creates more pressure than folks might realize. However, if I had to guess, I would say your load should be somewhere close to...or between 11,000PSI to 12,000psi for the 44-40....pending bullet/bore size.

[Ajohns]

Agreed. All data I used was from previous forum data, with no pressure numbers. Just what had worked for the owner. I've been at the 18gr mark with no filler, and it was very dirty. Other factors for the 38wcf were why I tried psb. I started at 17grs - 6.5psb, stopped at 17.5 - 6.

On another note, 23.5grs of IMR 4227, 200 gr Speer, Win std/mag primer, was quite clean. BUT in a Remington model 14 1/2 rifle. This,Savvy Jack is the load I'd shared with you by phone message a year or so ago.
I would NOT use in anything but a STRONG rifle.

[Savvy Jack]

Agreed. All data I used was from previous forum data, with no pressure numbers. Just what had worked for the owner. I've been at the 18gr mark with no filler, and it was very dirty. Other factors for the 38wcf were why I tried psb. I started at 17grs - 6.5psb, stopped at 17.5 - 6.

On another note, 23.5grs of IMR 4227, 200 gr Speer, Win std/mag primer, was quite clean. BUT in a Remington model 14 1/2 rifle. This,Savvy Jack is the load I'd shared with you by phone message a year or so ago.
I would NOT use in anything but a STRONG rifle.

I wanted to do more with the buffer but it was such a pain to use...lol!!! Always did like the 14 1/2!!!