Why so little on mixed buckshot loads?

[gun toting monkeyboy]

I have looked high and low all night for any information on buckshot loads using more than one size of buckshot. Thus far I have found a lot of semi-mythical BS about the "Malaysian load" used by the British in the 1950s, and a few links to the Aguila mini shot shell buckshot loads. Why isn't there more out there?

I have been experimenting with this, keeping the overall weight of the payload within the limits from several loading manuals. And I have found that I can get a regular 12 gauge load of 12 pellets of #1 buckshot into a shell with tons of room to spare. So much that it rattles around. But not quite enough room for another layer of 3 #1 pellets. However, if I do alternating layers of 3 pellets of #1 and 3 pellets of F (0.22" diameter), I can get the same 4 layers of #1 and a total of 9 extra pellets of F, all fitting snugly in the shell. Without going over the maximum shot charge weight. So why isn't there more information on this kind of thing out there? Is there some taboo against it I haven't heard of? Is there some reason I shouldn't be doing this? I mean, I realize the 0.22" pellets aren't going to offer a ton of extra stopping power. They are a bit smaller than the regular 0.24" #4 buckshot. But extra hits are extra hits, aren't they? Has anybody else tried this? If so, how did it work out for you? What sizes did you use?

-Mb

[Lloyd Smale]

i have a 00 mold and a #4 mold and have loaded many duplex loads. Even some with #4 buck and #6 fine shot. i just figure out what fits and weight it. if your loading it doesnt matter if an once of shot is #9 or 000 buck

[crackers]

You hinted at the answer - maximum weight. The addition of smaller, less penetrating pellets slows the whole column of shot, diminishing the energy potential of the main pellets.

[Jniedbalski]

I would think the smaller shot would slow down quickly and the heavy shot would keep moving past the smaller shot opening the group up. This is just a guess but I don’t know ether .

[Daekar]

You hinted at the answer - maximum weight. The addition of smaller, less penetrating pellets slows the whole column of shot, diminishing the energy potential of the main pellets.

So I guess it depends on what your goals for the load are. You might be able to achieve a target weight in a smaller volume and make more room for powder.

[Mk42gunner]

There is a theory that the heavier shot, if intermixed, will destroy the pattern by blowing through the smaller shot as it slows down. True or not? I don't know.

A few decades ago Remington did market Turkey loads with two sizes of shot, 4&6 and maybe 2&4 or 6 come to mind. I seem to remember they loaded the heavier shot to the front. I never bought any, I wasn't turkey hunting at the time. Plus it was expensive and a lot heavier load than I wanted for squirrels when I was home on leave.

I have no idea if it patterned well or not, but I haven't noticed it in stores for a while.

Robert

[gun toting monkeyboy]

The thing is, the longest shot inside my house is just under 23 yards. And that is from one end of the house, down the longest hallway, to the far side of the room at the other end. I don't think shot slowing down in the amount of time it takes to travel that far will be an issue. Also, with the way these are loaded into the shell, you have 12 #1 pellets forming a column in the center, and the 9 pellets of F sitting in the spaces around them. I will have to see how this patterns this week.

[Lloyd Smale]

There is a theory that the heavier shot, if intermixed, will destroy the pattern by blowing through the smaller shot as it slows down. True or not? I don't know.

A few decades ago Remington did market Turkey loads with two sizes of shot, 4&6 and maybe 2&4 or 6 come to mind. I seem to remember they loaded the heavier shot to the front. I never bought any, I wasn't turkey hunting at the time. Plus it was expensive and a lot heavier load than I wanted for squirrels when I was home on leave.

I have no idea if it patterned well or not, but I haven't noticed it in stores for a while.

Robert

might be so with a turkey or goose load shot out at near 50 yards but i patterened alot of it at 25 and never seen where it pattern suffered.

[NSB]

I have read somewhere (Lyman Shotshell Loading manual?) that you shouldn’t mix shot sizes because the combination of large and small can cause in interference fit going down the tube and bulge the barrel.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have read somewhere (Lyman Shotshell Loading manual?) that you shouldn’t mix shot sizes because the combination of large and small can cause in interference fit going down the tube and bulge the barrel.

if that were true youd be in big trouble shooting slugs. Keep in mind that the lyman manual still promotes the bs about cast bullets needing to bump up to be accurate.

[NSB]

if that were true youd be in big trouble shooting slugs. Keep in mind that the lyman manual still promotes the bs about cast bullets needing to bump up to be accurate.
Don’t confuse slugs and shot....two different subjects. Slugs travel at a somewhat uniform velocity down the tube. A sudden constriction (significant constriction) can easily bulge a shotgun barrel.

[TimD]

You should perform some penetration testing on ballistic gelatin to study the effects. I expect your larger shot would not penetrate as deeply, although the target may not notice the difference.

[Lloyd Smale]

Don’t confuse slugs and shot....two different subjects. Slugs travel at a somewhat uniform velocity down the tube. A sudden constriction (significant constriction) can easily bulge a shotgun barrel.

you could be right but in all the years ive shot ive never seen or even heard of an instance other them with a damascus barrel that let go anything lead bulging a barrel that wasnt restricted in some other way like with dirt snow ect that restricted the barrel. As long as lead has somewhere to expand i dont see it happening. It would take an awful lot of force for lead to deform steel. Id like to see a documented case of it happening in a modern steel barrel. I can say with all honesty ive shot at least 2k of my duplex 00 / #4 buck loads and havent even seen a weird hole in paper from a deformed pellet. I guess if your the paranoid type you could put some mica inbeween the balls.

[mdi]

What is your goal for using mixed size shot? For home defense, which you mentioned, how would you benefit from smaller shot mixed in with the buckshot?

[gwpercle]

Simply put ...they don't pattern all that well .
Remington had a "Turkey" load 12 ga. loaded with #4 and #5 shot in the same shell . Must not have been a big seller because I don't see it listed .
Things like Buck and Ball have been done over the years but still the best , most accurate well patterning loads all have one size shot ... at least when it comes to buckshot .
Give it a try and see how it works , you know what they say about building a better mouse trap !
Gary

[dverna]

I am trying to figure out why anyone would do it.

As to self-defense, increasing the payload is the last thing I would want. Reduced recoil is a lot more important to me. There is a reason they manufacture reduced recoil "tactical" shells.

[NSB]

you could be right but in all the years ive shot ive never seen or even heard of an instance other them with a damascus barrel that let go anything lead bulging a barrel that wasnt restricted in some other way like with dirt snow ect that restricted the barrel. As long as lead has somewhere to expand i dont see it happening. It would take an awful lot of force for lead to deform steel. Id like to see a documented case of it happening in a modern steel barrel. I can say with all honesty ive shot at least 2k of my duplex 00 / #4 buck loads and havent even seen a weird hole in paper from a deformed pellet. I guess if your the paranoid type you could put some mica inbeween the balls.
Lloyd, I’m not trying to start (or finish) an argument here. My point is that if I had to believe somebody it would probably be the people who literally “wrote the book” on shotshell reloading. Also, it doesn’t take much force at all to damage a shotgun barrel. I was out one day with my brother hunting rabbits and he “dipped” his 870 barrel in the snow. He then shot at a rabbit and his barrel instantly looked like it was a flower petal on the end. It split in about five petals which looked like it were done on a machine.

[Bloodman14]

I would have thought that the column of air in front of the payload would have pushed the snow out of the barrel before the shot got out.

[NSB]

I would have thought that the column of air in front of the payload would have pushed the snow out of the barrel before the shot got out.
The snow can, and does, make ice inside the barrel. You can prove this if you have a barrel you don’t need.

[megasupermagnum]

Ultimately you are asking about what is called a duplex load. I've tried them a number of times, mostly as a new reloader. There is nothing dangerous about it, I'm not sure what that nonsense is all about. It can apply to any shot size, or even shot and slug (buck and ball). You used to see them for turkey loads. The theory was that the smaller shot drafted the tighter patterning larger shot, and produced a tighter pattern for both. That is why you load the larger shot to the front. So why not load all larger shot if that patterned tighter? In reality it does nothing for a pattern that I have ever seen, good or bad. Generally you see relatively close shot sizes like 4 and 6 for turkey. I did play around with trying to make a duck/goose load with steel shot, with something like 3 and BBB in the same shell. Ultimately I ended up with a load that wasn't that effective for geese, and didn't have pattern density for ducks. Inside of 25 yards is would work for both, but #3 will kill a goose that close anyway, and BBB would as well for that matter, so nothing is gained. About the only useful duplex load I can think of is buck and ball. Some buckshot on bottom, and a slug or round ball on top makes a rather nasty round for close range defensive work. That big round ball or slug can offer great penetration over a shell completely of buckshot, and yet still offers some additional wound paths and forgiveness that the few buckshot offer. I might consider buck and ball if I were ever to track a wounded grizzly bear or leopard. (I'm not even joking about those, I'd love to hunt both)

To recap, there is no pattern advantage I have ever found. Small size changes are pointless, as in a bag of shot, even the best stuff varies in size somewhat. Bigger size changes leaves you with a less effective shell, both reducing pattern density, and sacrificing shot that will penetrate. In your case, it would be way easier to add an 1/8" felt wad under the shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

reason? I guess i think of it like this. In a survival situation i can have a 12 gauge shell in my gun loaded with a duplex #6/#4buck and be armed for small game and if needed defend myself a bit better then with just #6. I can even load #4 buck/00 buck and be well armed for big game or bad people and still have a better chance of hitting a bird or rabbit at 30 yards or further. For normal hunting i dont see an advantage to it. I carry what is best for the game im hunting. All that said i never was much for what other so called experts preach. I test MYSELF and find that theres alot of miss truths and down right bs wrote in books. Then add to that that alot of whats wrote was wrote back in the 50s and 60s (LYMAN) and is outdated and was done with different tests and technology of the day. Like i said if you doubt it just look at there outdated views on bullets bumping up to be accurate. Anyone that has shot A LOT of cast bullets and has done accuracy testing will tell you that 9 times out of 10 a harder alloy will shoot better then a softer one. Why would you expect any different. A bullet bumping up is a bullet deforming and isnt going to do it the same time every time. So basicaly your trying to make a varying blob of lead shoot small groups. Only thing i use the lyman manual for is they have loading data for some obsolete rounds that arent in other books. It was my first loading manual so yes i read it cover to cover. If a new loader asked me if he should id laugh and tell him to go and buy a modern loading manual like a speer or hornady. If you want knowledge on loading lead in ANYTHING come here. Theres a 100 times more knowledge on this forum then whats in the lyman loading manual. To me its about like thinking you can fix your new silverado by looking at a 1964 chev service manual.

[Goofy]

The thing is, the longest shot inside my house is just under 23 yards. And that is from one end of the house, down the longest hallway, to the far side of the room at the other end. I don't think shot slowing down in the amount of time it takes to travel that far will be an issue. Also, with the way these are loaded into the shell, you have 12 #1 pellets forming a column in the center, and the 9 pellets of F sitting in the spaces around them. I will have to see how this patterns this week.


23 yards in the house....a load of #5 or #6 shot will disable or kill anyone at that range. Wish you the best with the project. One Loony to another, buckshot inside a home is not the best idea.

[megasupermagnum]

I would never bet my life on the above statement. More people shot with #6 shot have survived, than have been killed. I'm guessing he means 23 feet, not yards. At 23 yards, the shot definitely has slowed down significantly. A 23 yard hallway would be a mansion. For example, a #F buckshot fired from the muzzle at 1300 fps, would be down to 981 fps at 23 yards.

[Goofy]

I suppose if you shoot them in the foot they may get a little belligerent. Shoot 'em in the face or belly and it's game over. My saying so stems from many years afield with shotguns applied to most any game or varmint common to the south, Oklahoma, and Guam. I'm not prone to pushing the envelope unless pressed and wouldn't try what one of my acquaintances pulled off one day. 8 point buck at about 10 yards and a load of 12 ga #8 shot dropped it stone dead in its tracks, and no, he did not shoot it in the head.

2 years in middle Georgia with an Ithaca 37 20 ga with #3 buckshot. 77 dead hogs, and only had to pull the trigger 68 times. Re: my disdain for buckshot in a house, it will penetrate multiple walls as well as some exterior walls. What happens after that opens the Liability Door big time. Such performance is unnecessary as well as undesirable.

https://i.imgur.com/NBAj3RL.jpg

What isn't obvious in the picture is that about 75% of the shot exited on the far side. Distance was about 20 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

I too love buckshot, and I think it a crying shame Minnesota, and now South Dakota as well both do not allow it for hunting anything larger than coyote. So many claim it a crippler, yet the truth is, nothing else can compare inside of 40 yards or so. Many, many deer have passed by me because I was denied the proper tool for the job, and I didn't feel confident making the shot with a slug.

I have no doubts birdshot can be lethal, but no, it is not always lethal. If you look at police reports, an outstanding number of people have taken birdshot to the chest at real close ranges, and lived to tell about it. Yes, it will deter most sane people. The problem is, anyone attacking a man with a shotgun is not sane. I'm not willing to bet my life to that. Something like BB lead shot will not go through many walls, and is most definitely lethal.

[Goofy]

Well, a fella's gotta do what he's comfortable with I reckon.

I suppose I come from a different world that most scattergun jockeys, what with having spent virtually all my life hunting with such contraptions. Thing is that I evolved into a weirdo that knows what each of the ones I have will do with what shot and at what range. Along the way I also had the opportunity to see what happens to people shot with a variety of guns in all places, such as legs, guts, chests and heads.

Couple or three points about the art: For a given choke most guns will shoot a tighter pattern with a shorter/lighter load of shot. Of all things important, FIT is the most salient aspect of effective use of a scattergun due the fact that application is instinctive rather than aimed. Given some actual use it is not difficult to function as a AA class wing shooter, or even to shoot a quails head off at close range rather than blow the whole bird to smithereens on a covey rise. This might be, from time to time, how one fills the skillet with just a few coveys rather than hunting all day long.

Another curious aspect that many have not digested is probably driven more by conventional wisdom rather than experience. In self defense mode the very highest priority is to disable your enemy, not to kill them. If they die after the fact, fine, but what you don't want them doing is shooting back. I mentioned the face/belly shot previously and having witnessed the effects of such wounds it is perfectly clear to me that a person shot at close range in either place will cease to be a problem. It has nothing to do with anything other than pain and immediate disability. I mentioned #5 or #6 shot. Well, there's no harm in gravitating to BB shot is so disposed, but the point is that a face full of bird shot in the gut or face will stop the show every time. Point of illustration for any that care, is some minor work recently done with an ancient WC Scott SxS with damascus barrels. #8 shot at 20 yards. Sorry that the pattern is not easy to see, suffice to say that if administered to a bad guy's face he would most likely be blind as a bat after the fact.

https://i.imgur.com/Yg6boVr.jpg

Brass shell loaded with BP; 3-1/4, 1-1/8 oz, #8

Another thing that I've come to recognize over the years, shot penetrates better than most realize. Mentioned the hog massacre earlier and implied that on a few occasions more than one hog was killed with a single shot. None of the bystanders were killed because of an expanding pattern, but rather by shot that had penetrated the targeted pig and then #2 or #3. Smaller shot is capable, within limits, of doing the same thing. FPE and velocity are largely irrelevant in this matter as the number of holes count more. Penetrate thru and thru? Not necessary. Punch a hole thru a shirt, a layer of skin or two and then tickle the intestines. Watch them scream like a little girl as they thrash around on the ground/floor.

Another illustration on that point. .22 CB shorts by CCI have an advertised MV of 710 fps. Not very fast at all, and they only weigh 29 grains. Here's what that pathetic little bullet will do.
https://i.imgur.com/EcoAg5d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/S4s0u8c.jpg

Recovered about 6" behind the skull in neck muscle, the boar was about 250# and shot at 15 yards.
https://i.imgur.com/zcWlSRW.jpg

[onelight]

That is impressive penetration from that CB cap I have not had that kind of performance on armadillos and coons.
Have had no exits on side heart shots with CB caps. Fired from a savage rifle.

[Goofy]

It surprised me to be sure. Up to about 125# on a broadside shot inside 40 yards they will fully penetrate a hog's neck including the spine.

https://i.imgur.com/CzbgttY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5FjJlCN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9OlEa70.jpg

[onelight]

Those are a lot BIGGER than the armadillos rooting up the yard and flower beds :)

[megasupermagnum]

I agree 100% about people underestimating shot. Not just shot either, bullets too. The internet has at least doubled the size of fish, and made animals tough as steel. I'm convinced that even avid shooters often have no idea the real potential of the firearm they have in their hand, usually grossly underestimating.

[mdi]

I've heard a lot about Duplex Loads concerning powder charges, but not a lot about duplex shotgun loads. Not criticizing anyone's opinion, but I still want to know what the advantages would be with mixing smaller shot with buckshot in regards to the OP's original question (Home Defense?). More shot on target? To me if wanting more pellets per load I'd drop to #1 Buck, 15 pellets, or even down to #4 with 27 pellets in a 12 ga 2 3/4 load. I seriously doubt if any bad guy would laugh off a load of #4 buck in his belly at 25 yards...