Loading .38 Special wadcutters, sizing and crimp?

[hc18flyer]

Recently I read a post about loading unsized, tumble lubed wad cutters in unsized .38 Special cases. The purpose was to maintain as much diameter as your revolver chambers will allow. I tried some this am and the wc's are too loose in the cases, even after a Redding TC crimp die. I also tried an older Hornady seat and crimp die, but I could still spin the bullet in the case. Next I tried only sizing the top 3/16" or so of the case, which created some neck tension, followed by the Redding TC die, which seemed to work much better. I don't have a Lee FCD for the new-to-me .38 Special, which I saw as a suggestion. How much if any crimp do I really need? What about the Redding TC die, I bought it for my .357 Max? Thanks in advance for your comments, hc18flyer

[ShooterAZ]

I crimp 38 WC's just enough to remove any of the bell from the expander die.

[uscra112]

This sounds more than a little flaky. Your wadcutters only need to be a thou or so bigger than your chamber throats. Not sizing the bullet to fit the gun, and the brass to fit the bullet just sounds like laziness to me.

My own .38 target loading went as far as making several custom expander plugs so my brass always fit the bullet. (Different makes, and even variation of temper of the brass affect the expanded I. D.)

[Outpost75]

The Redding Profile Crimp die sizes the bullets by compression inside the case. If you pull down a loaded round the "oversized" bullet is reduced in diameter to .3585-.359 in typical wadcutter brass and to .358-.3585 in other .38 Special.

[TimD]

You need enough crimp to keep the bullet from moving in the case under recoil.

Both the Redding Profile Crimp die and Lee Factory Crimp Die size the body of the cartridge/bullet down and apply a Roll Crimp. I would expect a roll crimp to keep your bullet from spinning. I would also expect your Hornady die to roll crimp as well.

If you do have a Taper Crimp die it may not provide enough crimp to secure the bullet.

Are you getting any sign of a roll crimp on the case mouth?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There's probably only two ways you can go on this: (1) If you are loading commercially cast bullets you are purchasing in quantity, like boxes of 500, then they will probably already be sized and lubed, likely to .357". (2) If you are casting your own, then you'll want to buy a sizing-lubing machine, and can purchase the s&l dies of the diameter you want. As for a crimp, that is easily done with standard reloading dies, and you can roll crimp or taper crimp, but the best solution is to acquire a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. You describe your bullets as being loose in the case, but uniformity in loading is one of the keys to accuracy. Uniformity would include uniformity of crimp in type and amount. Do you have a micrometer or caliper, and have you measured the diameter of your bullets? Perhaps they are undersized, for which I know of no solution except to melt and recast them.

DG

[Winger Ed.]

Loading an unsized case?

If the cases weren't fired in a tight chamber,
I'd be a little surprised the boolits didn't drop all the way to the bottom of the case.

[uscra112]

He's saying that the bullets are also unsized. For all we know they may be big enough to have some friction in the unsized cases.

[Outpost75]

Loading an unsized case?

If the cases weren't fired in a tight chamber,
I'd be a little surprised the boolits didn't drop all the way to the bottom of the case.

Yes! Unsized cases AND unsized bullets at .360", same as Winchester or Remington HBWC bullets. They are friction tight in the brass and seated to depth only, then separately profiled and crimped, in the same manner that factory wadcutter are loaded.

THAT is why Lee called it the Factory Crimp Die.

[uscra112]

Interesting. How long has .38 ammo been manufactured this way? I've never heard or read about it before.

[USSR]

The OP doesn't say what size the wadcutters are that he is using. If they are commercial wadcutters other than Remington (they stopped making them a couple of years ago), then they will be too small. I use the Remington's and I cast my own, both of which are .360" and they fit fine. I just use enough crimp to remove the slight flaring of the case mouth.

Don

[Drm50]

Well, I have loaded thousands of 38sp WCs. Always used WC brass, sized and boolits sized and lubed. Tried tumble lube and Lee WC and I didn’t like them, neither did my 14-15-19-27 or M&P Target. I don’t like Rem brass either. Size mine to .360”. Use standard 38sp die to crimp and been doing it that way for 50yrs.

[hc18flyer]

I will reread all of your posts tonight. I am casting in a .358 Lachmiller DEWC and tumblelubing them in bll. I don't have a micrometer, just a digital caliper. I plan to work on them again in the morning. I wouldn't be competing, just want to work up an accurate load. Tom

[johniv]

Yes! Unsized cases AND unsized bullets at .360", same as Winchester or Remington HBWC bullets. They are friction tight in the brass and seated to depth only, then separately profiled and crimped, in the same manner that factory wadcutter are loaded.

THAT is why Lee called it the Factory Crimp Die.
Thanks to Outpost75, I’ve been loading all my practice ammo like this for years. It works.

[VariableRecall]

I don't think that it would be very smart to leave your cases unsized. Unless you have some sort of post-sizer, you might just want to size your batch before expanding and seating.

[uscra112]

Apparently that's what the Factory Crimp Die does. Size both case and bullet and crimp in one operation. Sounds like an idea from the Product Cheapening Engineers, but hey, if it doesn't degrade the results at the range.......

[onelight]

My Lee 38/357 carbide crimp die will not size an unsized case fired in my gun I can push a fired case past the carbide ring with hand pressure well past where a bullet would seat in the case.

[tazman]

My Lee 38/357 carbide crimp die will not size an unsized case fired in my gun I can push a fired case past the carbide ring with hand pressure well past where a bullet would seat in the case.

Same for me. I size my cases before seating my boolits. I seat the boolits before crimping in a separate step. My Lee FCD doesn't touch the case with the carbide ring unless my boolit is significantly oversize and has bulged the case. Pulled boolts confirm that the boolits are NOT sized below what I intended them to be. The only unsized boolits I use measure .357-.359. Most run right at .358.

I always use a roll crimp. My experience indicates I get more consistent powder burn with a good roll crimp than with a taper crimp. No worries about boolit movement from recoil.

This is what works for me in several S&W revolvers(7). Your mileage may vary of course.

[uscra112]

I always sized my bullets, sized my cases, seated bullets using a traditional seater, (RCBS) set to give a significant roll crimp. It worked for generations before me, and it worked for me.

[Outpost75]

Interesting. How long has .38 ammo been manufactured this way? I've never heard or read about it before.

This has been the factory method ever since the .38 Special cartridge was first loaded with smokeless powder.

The purpose of the case cannelure was to position the bullet base to keep the bullet from dropping down onto the powder, the crimping machine profiled the case and crimped it. Loading fired brass in this manner the bullet must be large enough to provide a slight friction fit to hold the bullet in place until rounds get to the crimping station.

This method reduces base deformation caused by forcing a soft bullet into a tight case.

[uscra112]

When you say "profiled", do you mean reduced the O.D. by compression?

[Outpost75]

When you say "profiled", do you mean reduced the O.D. by compression?

Correct. Same as for factory loading of .22 LR to grasp the heel of the bullet.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have to confess that some of this is information I've never heard of, and I've reloaded hundreds of .38 Spec. rounds per year for many years. Using the conventional method of reloading and conventional dies the ammo produced is more accurate than most shooters. It would seem that the OP's problem arises from using new, unfired component brass. After all, if you buy a box of loaded ammo, fire it, then it is sized to your chamber. Or, if you reload fired brass from other sources it is fire formed to whatever chamber it was fired in. It is necessary to run the brass into a sizing die to obtain a uniform, standard size. Then to slightly flare the mouth to receive the new bullet. The bullets will fit tightly, and crimping them is only really necessary if they'll be subject to repeated recoil of other rounds firing like in a revolver. If you use bullets very much over the standard size of .357 you will bulge the cases, shave lead, and perhaps crack the case mouths if the cases have been reloaded several times before. As for the Lee FCD, it is not designed to seat bullets or size cases, only to provide a factory-like crimp and to guarantee usable dimensions if the case will pass through the carbide ring. It really doesn't matter what type of crimp you use if it is applied uniformly to all rounds. If you insert sized, loaded rounds into a standard-sized cylinder the rounds will easily slip into and fall out of the cylinder chambers. Once fired, you usually (not always, depending on the individual revolver) have to push them out with the ejector rod. In reading the OP's post I get the impression that he wants to load oversize dimension brass with bullets of approximately the standard dimension and wants to crimp them without resizing the brass to normal specifications. If he is able to accomplish that he will find the loaded rounds difficult to insert and difficult to extract. The .38 Special has been around so long, and used in such vast quantities with time-proven results that I can't understand why one would want to stray off the well worn path of loading these rounds. We need a better explanation of what he is trying to do and why.

DG

[45DUDE]

I do like tazman in post 18. I am not happy unless a 25 yard 10 shot group on the bench is under 1 1/2'' at 25 yards. Lots of ways will work. When you try to short cut you usually come out on the short end. I do taper crimp for one of my Clark bullseye wad cutter guns but can't tell a difference. Just a habit. Some revolvers are forgiving because the throats are 357 and the boolit is resized before it hits the rifling. If all the cases are the same size the speed should be close. I have a Dillon and resizing is not a problem. Lots of people do with with what they have. Long as we have a good time is all that matters. Good shooting to all.

[uscra112]

Correct. Same as for factory loading of .22 LR to grasp the heel of the bullet.

How did I get to be 76 years old and not know that?

[Outpost75]

How did I get to be 76 years old and not know that?

Maybe because you never worked on the production line in an ammunition plant...

[USSR]

If you use bullets very much over the standard size of .357 you will bulge the cases, shave lead, and perhaps crack the case mouths if the cases have been reloaded several times before.

When loading .360" wadcutters in unsized brass, you use wadcutter brass which will not bulge the brass. Have never had a lead shaving problem, and cracks in the case mouth are actually greatly reduced due to less work hardening of the brass by not resizing it.

Don

[Jniedbalski]

This is just another way to load 38 wc ammo. I did my 38 like normal, resize the case expand and bell. Add powder seat then crimp. I read Outpost75 article on not sizing brass and using .360 unsized WC bullets. Using wc brass unsized the wc bullet will hand seat almost half way in the case then I use my press to finish seating. Then I crimp with the fcd. It worked out great in my 2 s&w revolvers like this. Accuracy was better and it just workes.

[uscra112]

Maybe because you never worked on the production line in an ammunition plant...

Nope. I was automotive powertrain. Details of head and block processing don't make for articles in the popular press either, now that I think about it. My old Dad, who was a process engineer himself, said "Son, it's a fascination profession, but you'll never have cocktail party conversation."

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I've been using the little Lee 105 grain swc bullet over VV N310 lately. Powdery coated and sized to my cylinder throats. Slight crimp into the groove. Got a couple 2" groups yesterday at fifty feet off hand ( was a good day ). Fully sized cases as usual. For swaged hbwc factory boolits I use an NOE expander plug and just crimp enough to take the flare away.