Any Tractor/Mechanic experts here?

[lksmith]

Was starting my old tractor the other day. Got it going and when I put the air intake hose on it sucked some water in (No clue how water got into much less filled up the filter box) and it stopped before I could pull it off. Last time water got into it I just hit the decompression lever turned it over a few times and back in business.
Apparently not so lucky this time! Sucker is locked up tight! took the head off and tried to crank, no luck. next tried to turn the engine over by putting a pipe wrench on the PTO and turning it over (with the head off) and ended up breaking an 18" aluminum pipe wrench into 3 pieces, still no movement.

I'm thinking (hoping) a bent rod is all I have since the pistons are in the correct positions (one at top of cylinder, other at bottom of cylinder) but it ain't moving at all. Doesn't appear to be anything sticking out of the block or any cracks. What else can cause it to stick like that?

If it helps, the tractor is a 1970's Yanmar 2210D diesel with a 2T90 engine. everything I've read about these rigs is that they are dang near bulletproof and fairly easy to work on due to their simplicity

[jim147]

Having built engines for years this seems strange. When you pulled the head was a cylinder full of water or fuel? That would be the bent rod.

How was the oil and oil pressure when it started? It could have stuck a bearing.

[gwrench]

It sounds strange to me too. Before you do any more cranking on it with a wrench I'd strongly suggest you pull the pan and have a look.

[MarkW]

So how long did it run before it stopped, and when it stopped did you hear any sort of sharp noise like a bang or a clack? As mentioned, first thing is to pull the pan and see what you have. If it is locked good and tight like that my best guess is a rod has probably broken and the spinning crankshaft smacked into it while it was hanging down. Anyway, drop the pan and post up a pic or two of what it looks like in there. It's a good sign you don't have a hole in the side of the block, so it may be repairable but you have to see what it looks like first.

[Petrol & Powder]

From the description it sounds highly likely you bent or broke a rod.

Those engine are tough but a hydraulic lock (water in the cylinders) will destroy any engine.

As others have suggested, Pulling the pan off is a good next step.

[lksmith]

Having built engines for years this seems strange. When you pulled the head was a cylinder full of water or fuel? That would be the bent rod.

How was the oil and oil pressure when it started? It could have stuck a bearing.
there was some water but not full, most of the water was in the exhaust manifold. It doesn't have an oil pressure gauge (only gauge is tach) but there was pressure in the oil lines when I took them off and all the stuff under the valve cover was covered in oil, so assuming oil pressy was also good. Oil itself was black but otherwise good.

Tried turning the PTO both ways with no luck. Weather permitting, I plan on dropping the pan tomorrow and get a look from the underside.

Funny thing is, it's my newest piece of diesel equipment and my oldest (1960's dozer) is still running but puking oil out the exhaust and my backhoe (1971) has a fuel delivery issue (injector pump I think) I swear it's a full time job keeping stuff going!

[SOFMatchstaff]

My condolences, diesel motors that liquid lock at anything above cranking rpm are generally a complete write off. You can expect the worst when the pan comes off, head bolts and main cap bolts, check for stretching or pulled threads. $1000 min with you doing the work. I been working on My Duece &half, feel your pain.....

[redneck1]

I'd look for a bent crankshaft when you take it apart . if the yanmars are built anything close to what the two cylinder Kubota engines from the 70's are the crankshaft is the weakest link being a flat plane crank

[lksmith]

I'd look for a bent crankshaft when you take it apart . if the yanmars are built anything close to what the two cylinder Kubota engines from the 70's are the crankshaft is the weakest link being a flat plane crank

I'm hoping it isn't the crank, that would require splitting the tractor to replace, which is FAR beyond my abilities or tools.
Given the way my luck has been going it probably is the crank and everything else attached to it.
Problem I am having now, is that I can't get the oil pan off. The gasket it holding TIGHT!

[lksmith]

OK, Got the pan off with a board and my "engineering hammer" (8# sledge with 12" handle). Crank was perfectly vertical (as expected by piston position). Pulled both caps off the bottom and the crank moved when turned by hand, also the rear piston moved up and down freely.
All damage appears to be confined to the front piston which was up. I did find s small pieces of metal in the pan, that look to either be bottom of the sleeve or bottom of the piston skirt. The front piston is stuck firmly no visible damage or damage I can feel. Going to let the oil drip off a little and hit it with some carb cleaner so I can move the drain pan out from under it and get a better look feel. At present looks like I am looking at about $450 in parts, $430 if I reuse the rod bearings which look/feel fine since there was no slack or play in the bottom end

[jim147]

Did the front rod break or just seize the piston in the sleeve?

[lksmith]

Did the front rod break or just seize the piston in the sleeve?

Looks like it just siezed in the sleeve. got everything moving, but pushed the pistons down too far and the oil control ring (bottom ring) expanded and I can't push it up or pull it out. I guess i'll try to break the ring to pull them out the top. Might get lucky and only need to replace rings and maybe a sleeve.
I think I'll have to pull the crank to resleeve it, but maybe not

[john.k]

Caterpillar D9s are the only motors Ive worked on where the piston can go in from underneath....the liner may have broken from the pressure hit and trapped a ring at the top.......anyway,there is no need to remove the crank to replace a liner.....Cranks are pretty tough,I had a Mazda truck that dropped a valve ,smashed piston and head and bent the rod considerable......never needed to replace the crank or the main bearings......did pull the main bolts beside to check for stretch or cracks ,they were OK and went back.....the truck was still running OK years later when I quit ,but the cab was so rusty it used to rain inside.

[lksmith]

Caterpillar D9s are the only motors Ive worked on where the piston can go in from underneath....the liner may have broken from the pressure hit and trapped a ring at the top.......anyway,there is no need to remove the crank to replace a liner.....Cranks are pretty tough,I had a Mazda truck that dropped a valve ,smashed piston and head and bent the rod considerable......never needed to replace the crank or the main bearings......did pull the main bolts beside to check for stretch or cracks ,they were OK and went back.....the truck was still running OK years later when I quit ,but the cab was so rusty it used to rain inside.

From the looks of it the inside of the engine looks like a new one, no rust and it still has the primer on the inside of the case. Crank is about as big around as my wrist where the rods bolt on, so probably tougher than what's in my pickup with 380hp

So how do I get a liner out? Block of wood and beat the crap out of it from the bottom? Right now head is off so nothing I can see holding the liner in.

On the bright side, I figured out why my 4wd quit, bracket bent over about 1/4" that supports the outer drive shaft. A few good whacks with a BFH ought to bend it back in place

[Petrol & Powder]

The wrist pin in the piston may no longer be where it should be. You will not know until you get everything apart.

[redneck1]

Liners can be tough to remove on old engines that probably haven't ever had any conditioner used in the coolant .

I'd do some research and find out what sort of liner is in the block .
You might very well be able to just use a block of wood and start wacking on it as long as its not a press fit . or jack it out .

I watched a rather inventive mechanic push out a stubborn liner with an exhaust pipe expander and a bottle jack once ..

[jim147]

With the crankshaft installed you will need to use wood or a brass punch to knock out the sleeve. Check closely for any cracks between cylinders or in the head. Should look like a white line.

If the piston is stuck you could use a wood block in the rod to knock the whole thing out.

[Finster101]

If you get it running again I would dang sure find out how the breather box got filled or this time fixing it could just be practice.

[Plate plinker]

The wrist pin in the piston may no longer be where it should be. You will not know until you get everything apart.
I think your onto something there.

[lksmith]

If you get it running again I would dang sure find out how the breather box got filled or this time fixing it could just be practice.

I think I'll drill a drain hole or 2 in the bottom. I am totally perplexed how any water got in there (and not in the open intake) much less how it got full. The deepest water it's ever been in was still below the oil pan, the hood is down and the only place for water to enter the housing is the snorkel at the very top just below the hood.

[lksmith]

The wrist pin in the piston may no longer be where it should be. You will not know until you get everything apart.

I can spin the piston in the liner and cannot feel any protrusion in the pin area

[redneck1]

I think what he's trying to say is the piston might be a tad shorter then it used to be ;)
Rods can compress without bending a minor amount to , but that's a lot less likely then them bending .

[skeettx]

watching
Mike

[MarkW]

To get the rings compressed in order to get the piston completely back into the cylinder you can use a hose clamp around the offending ring to get it pressed back in then tap (or whack) the piston back up into the cylinder with a hammer and a piece of wood. If you don't have a hose clamp big enough you can piece together a larger clamp from 2 smaller ones. It can be fiddly but you can also do the same thing with a zip tie but you have to be a lot more careful so I'd suggest just using a hose clamp.

[john.k]

The liner may be a wet line,like a Caterpillar,in which case it should pull out fairly easily,it may be a dry liner that is a slip fit (GM71s,1980s Mazda diesels),or it may be dry liner that is pressed into the block with more or less interference fit ......these kind of liners generally need the block in a hydraulic press,and the liner pressed out....so there is no point trying to get a tight fit liner out in the tractor...in a small motor ,there may be no liner.. ..In any case ,pull the piston and rod ,and see whats had damage ....A bent rod is very likely .

[lksmith]

This is the sleeve: https://www.hoyetractor.com/PROD/WS-90.htm
From what I can tell looking at the drawings in my service manual and the pic on the site, it is held with oring and sandwiched between the head and block, but I would've expected it to come out pretty easily once the head is off.
I thought about the hose clamp, but I'm not sure i can get a wrench or screwdriver up in there to tighten it

[popper]

Wet sleeve block. Piston seized in cylinder? Pull rod cap and take it all out. Buy new cylinder, piston, rod and rings. Look for cracked cylinder that leaked coolant into the cylinder! Blown head gasket will do it also.

[john.k]

A wet sleeve with one seal ring will not come out by hand ....but can be pulled with a simple setup ,like a length of threaded rod and cross pieces and spacers......this is assuming rust inhibitor/anti freeze in the coolant.....rust will make the job more difficult.

[lksmith]

A wet sleeve with one seal ring will not come out by hand ....but can be pulled with a simple setup ,like a length of threaded rod and cross pieces and spacers......this is assuming rust inhibitor/anti freeze in the coolant.....rust will make the job more difficult.

What if you can't get the piston out?

[Mk42gunner]

I would try to position a small hydraulic jack under the tractor to press the piston/ liner out when you raise the jack.

I don't know about yours, but some Kubotas are supposed to have the new liners installed then reamed to size.

It may be more economical to find another similar tractor than to repair this one.

Robert

[Soundguy]

Can you get a brass rod or bar by crank into jug and hammer from bottom driving piston and jug out?

If it was a dry cast liner I'd shrink it with low pen weld beads and pull by hand..or if a dry sheet steel liner peel out.. ( but it ain't )

[john.k]

Looks like the oil ring will have to be broken to get the piston out......Id do it without a second thought,and replace the rings as a matter of course.

[lksmith]

Looks like the oil ring will have to be broken to get the piston out......Id do it without a second thought,and replace the rings as a matter of course.

yeah, trying to break the oil ring on the front piston, but so far it has just bent. Once the rain moves out I'll try to jack it up and out.
HOPEFULLY then I can get the parts and put it back together where it'll run. Never done one of these before so I might end up having to get another tractor anyway, but if i can fix it and it ought to run for another 40+ years

[rancher1913]

if you want another 40 years, do all the liners and rings. my luck if I only did the bad one would be failure of another after I got it all back together.

[Finster101]

if you want another 40 years, do all the liners and rings. my luck if I only did the bad one would be failure of another after I got it all back together.

I'll second that. If you are down that far it just doesn't make sense to not do the complete job. Having made my living in the automotive repair business I have seen only fixing the "bad" coil, plug, valve, you name it bite customers more than once. I can only recommend it, not force them to do it but they sure wish they had listened when they pay me to tear it down again.

[john.k]

Maybe ,but pulling wet liners can open a can of worms.....problems that you dont want to know about or deal with...........I also hadnt considered the oil ring may be a duoflex type,all steel components that wont break.....so just wind it out of the groove maybe with long nose pliers.......

[lksmith]

Maybe ,but pulling wet liners can open a can of worms.....problems that you dont want to know about or deal with...

You may be right, but don't really have a choice. i found 2 small pieces of metal that appeared to be the bottom of the sleeve in the oil pan. If I don't replace it, more than likely a ring will catch and I'm right back where I started

[alfadan]

If it hydrolocked, im thinking it bent the rod enough for the crankshaft to pull the piston down enough, the oil ring came out the bottom of the liner and then shoved back up. As to the water, do you pressure wash it?

[john.k]

I wasnt suggesting you dont pull the liner that locked......just dont pull the other unnecessarily......However ,if the other liner moves,then it should be pulled and the seal ring replaced.

[lksmith]

If it hydrolocked, im thinking it bent the rod enough for the crankshaft to pull the piston down enough, the oil ring came out the bottom of the liner and then shoved back up. As to the water, do you pressure wash it?

no, i don't. Somehow the airbox got filled with water and when I slid the hose back on the intake it sucked water in.
as to HOW the airbox got water in it, much less filled, I haven't a clue. It has a "horn" on the top that sucks air in, however that horn sits right under the hood, which was closed and doesn't have any holes in it that I can find.
If haven't started it in a while, I'll take the hose off and dribble a little charcoal lighter fluid in the intake to help it kick off instead of using starting fluid. It ignites easier than diesel but isn't as "explosive" as ether so easier on the engine. This is similar to how the thermostart on it works

[lksmith]

So I got the pistons out and looks like both rods bent and both sleeves have a small chunk broke out at the bottom. Likely from the rods bending.
as tight as the pistons fit in the sleeve (even without the rings) the tractor would've kept on trucking long after me had I not gotten water in it.
However that looks to be the extent of the damage, parts are right at $700+ shipping since I already had a head gasket for it.
Now just hoping I can put it back together AND it run

[farmbif]

I didn't read all the comments here but the folks at hoye tractor in Texas have always been more than helpful in everything I have ever had to repair on my little 2cyl Yanmar . on the website is lots of how info also. some sleeves come right out but others you need to get a puck to fit in sleeve, spacers on top of block and piece of threaded rod to pull them.

[Mal Paso]

So I got the pistons out and looks like both rods bent and both sleeves have a small chunk broke out at the bottom. Likely from the rods bending.
as tight as the pistons fit in the sleeve (even without the rings) the tractor would've kept on trucking long after me had I not gotten water in it.
However that looks to be the extent of the damage, parts are right at $700+ shipping since I already had a head gasket for it.
Now just hoping I can put it back together AND it run

Glad you stuck with it! Gives us armchair mechanics an interesting read! Good Luck!

[john.k]

Yanmar parts have always been extra costly,which is why Ive steered clear of them........Anyway,the area you are most likely to strike problems is the liner seals......the liner seal area in the block must be smooth and free from cavitation pitting,which has sharp edges that will tear the liner seals.....also follow instruction for liner seal lubricant exactly ....if the book says no oil,then grease is out too,and especially kerosine based hand cleaner........Ive done Caterpillar blocks that had nothing left of the liner seal surface,by building up with Devcon ,and carefully scraping back to round and smooth.

[jim147]

I've always used dawn dish soap for o ring lube for liners. Use a wire brush in an air grinder to clean the groves out. I'll see if I can remember where I used to get parts from and see if they are cheaper.

Where are you? That might help. I can find used parts from a couple places around here.

[lksmith]

I didn't read all the comments here but the folks at hoye tractor in Texas have always been more than helpful in everything I have ever had to repair on my little 2cyl Yanmar . on the website is lots of how info also. some sleeves come right out but others you need to get a puck to fit in sleeve, spacers on top of block and piece of threaded rod to pull them.

yeah, Hoye is who I usually use for Yammer specific items. They suggested the same about a puller

[lksmith]

I've always used dawn dish soap for o ring lube for liners. Use a wire brush in an air grinder to clean the groves out. I'll see if I can remember where I used to get parts from and see if they are cheaper.

Where are you? That might help. I can find used parts from a couple places around here.

I'm in south arkansas. Now that the pistons are out they'll get a good shot of degreaser and then probably carb cleaner before going back in.
With new liners and rings the old gal ought to run like new, hopefully easier to start too. It's always been a bit hard to start until it gets warmed up, even when it's 100+ degrees outside

[Gator 45/70]

So I got the pistons out and looks like both rods bent and both sleeves have a small chunk broke out at the bottom. Likely from the rods bending.
as tight as the pistons fit in the sleeve (even without the rings) the tractor would've kept on trucking long after me had I not gotten water in it.
However that looks to be the extent of the damage, parts are right at $700+ shipping since I already had a head gasket for it.
Now just hoping I can put it back together AND it run

Have you determined how the water entered the engine?

My old neighbor Bob came over one day explaining his 4-71 was full of water running out the dipstick, Rainwater at that.

I went over and dug around his machine for a bit, The rain cap was in place and closed, But the top inside lip of the muffler had a rusted hole inside the outer lip allowing the muffle to act like a funnel filling up the engine with water.
Long story short, We pulled the air box covers,Sprayed liners and rings with WD-40, Rotated the engine until the rings were free.
Drained the oil, Changed the filters, Added fresh oil, filters, battery, diesel, Fired it off for a minute.
Drained off the oil and changed the filters as this now looked like a vanilla shake.
Put more oil and filters, Ran fine, Bob went and bought a new muffler.
If you don't find the source of the water contamination you're back to square one, Look hard at the muffler and air filter housing.

[rockrat]

I would inspect the pistons real well for damage. Dye penetrant check would be good, to check for hairline fractures. You don't want to put damaged pistons in the rebuild, just to have them fail at some time.

[lksmith]

Have you determined how the water entered the engine?

My old neighbor Bob came over one day explaining his 4-71 was full of water running out the dipstick, Rainwater at that.

I went over and dug around his machine for a bit, The rain cap was in place and closed, But the top inside lip of the muffler had a rusted hole inside the outer lip allowing the muffle to act like a funnel filling up the engine with water.
Long story short, We pulled the air box covers,Sprayed liners and rings with WD-40, Rotated the engine until the rings were free.
Drained the oil, Changed the filters, Added fresh oil, filters, battery, diesel, Fired it off for a minute.
Drained off the oil and changed the filters as this now looked like a vanilla shake.
Put more oil and filters, Ran fine, Bob went and bought a new muffler.
If you don't find the source of the water contamination you're back to square one, Look hard at the muffler and air filter housing.

Water entered from the airbox. How water got into the airbox is a mystery. Can rule out the muffler as i had a 5gal bucket over it to prevent water from entering that way

[Gator 45/70]

Water entered from the airbox. How water got into the airbox is a mystery. Can rule out the muffler as i had a 5gal bucket over it to prevent water from entering that way

Rain can get sideways on you, I'd plan on an airbox shield or cover.

[Petrol & Powder]

I would inspect the pistons real well for damage. Dye penetrant check would be good, to check for hairline fractures. You don't want to put damaged pistons in the rebuild, just to have them fail at some time.

I wouldn't even risk re-using the old pistons.
It would be a shame to spend all of that time and Money, only to have the engine tear itself apart.

I know pistons are expensive but if you're $700 into this engine, you don't want to throw away $700.

[lksmith]

Rain can get sideways on you, I'd plan on an airbox shield or cover.

That's the part that has me baffled. the horn is completely shielded, and never had water in the box since I got the tractor in 2014 and it stays outside 90% of the time, up until a year ago i didn't even put a bucket over the exhaust pipe, just let the flapper do it's thing

[lksmith]

ANOTHER UPDATE:
OK so built a puller with a circle of 3/8" plate with a 1/2" threaded hole in the middle(ish) and a washer and1/2" nut backing it up. The plate is about 1" bigger than the OD of the sleeve, which feels like it protrudes from the block by about 3/4-1"
Got a 2x4 laid across the head studs with a 1/2" hole drilled through it with a piece of 1/2" allthread, washer and nut on top. Got it cranked down pretty tight, as in about as tight as I feel comfortable pulling on a 3/8" ratchet without a cheater. No movement so far. Sprayed some Zep45 around the top and am letting it sit, hopefully the constant tension and oil will help it pop out.
Best I can figure on these, once they break loose they come out pretty easy and don't have to be pulled all the way through the block like a dry liner would. Might try some heat tomorrow, but kinda nervous that i'll ignite the oil and have an even bigger mess on my hands. Might even try air chisel on the inside of the sleeve to help vibrate it loose

[jim147]

I had a puller like that with a bunch of discs made for all the engines we worked on. It had a large aluminum cup to pull the sleeve up into.

I never had a problem getting them out with that but was told to run a couple weld beads up the inside of the sleeve to loosen it if it didn't move.

[john.k]

Ive always steered clear of anything Yanmar because of parts prices.....but $700 for two liners and a ringset is even beyond what Id expect.....I imagine pistons would be similar prices too.....Ive always liked Perkins stuff,used to get a piston ,liner ,rings ,pin kit for $22.,and a head gasket kit for $20.....Something to consider before buying the machine.......The Mustang skid steers had Yanmar engines,and IMHO sales were never high due to engine parts prices.

[lksmith]

Ive always steered clear of anything Yanmar because of parts prices.....but $700 for two liners and a ringset is even beyond what Id expect.....I imagine pistons would be similar prices too.....Ive always liked Perkins stuff,used to get a piston ,liner ,rings ,pin kit for $22.,and a head gasket kit for $20.....Something to consider before buying the machine.......The Mustang skid steers had Yanmar engines,and IMHO sales were never high due to engine parts prices.

two liners, two con rods, two ring sets, four valve stem seals (already open and easy to get to), and a gasket set. Pistons are $150each

With the price of the parts it's a good thing they don't break often!

[jim147]

I think i put all four overbore sleeves and pistons in mine for less than two pistons for yours

[lksmith]

OK, I've tried running 2 beads vertically on the sleeve while my puller is cranked tight, and then hit it with my air chisel all while keeping penetrating oil in it, all to no avail. Got about 1/16 or less up on the front sleeve, but that's it. Haven't tried the rear sleeve yet.

That sucker is STUCK! Any ideas?

[farmbif]

the last puller I made I used 1" fine thread high strength all thread, turned a stepped puck on my lathe out of 1" steel plate 1"x 2" or 1x3, its been a while, bar stock to make bridge to go outside sleeve and onto the top of the block used several grade 8 washers under nut with lots of grease and had to put a piece of steel pipe over the box wrench on the nut to get the sleeve started out. that was on an old ford 8n or 9n I don't remember which one, some sleeves can be real tough to get moving out. OTC used to make very high quality sleeve puller sets and pucks in many sizes if you can't make your own.

as far as used pistons if they are in good shape might want to at least get new rings.

[farmbif]

there is an outfit that has videos on youtube how to rebuild Farmall engines and they advertise they will make sleeve puller pucks. there is a pretty young lady and her husband that do the work. you will know when you get to the right video, a young lady rebuilding tractor engine,
I would offer to make you a puck but sold my big lathe when I moved
might check mscdirect for high strength all thread and grade 8 nuts if you don't have local source.
its very important to make puller legs both exactly same length so sleeve is pulled straight.
if you pound on sleeve it will crack up and then you will be left with option of cutting it out somehow without damaging block or getting portable van Norman or kwikway boring bar to cut it out.

[Soundguy]

Wet sleeves generally come loose once they move about an inch. It is possible that someone coated it with green sleeve retainer and it's REAL stiff. Fill the jug with ice or dry ice and then hit it with more chissle. Ironically many times people have problem keeping sleeves in vs out. :(

[john.k]

Yes ,as mentioned 1" UNF is a better thread for a puller...1/2 is too small.....and use some pure moly MoS2 on the parts that move........I never bet on wet sleeves ,because someone may have had trouble with leaks before (unless you bought it new),and used some liquid sealant .... may also be well stuck with rust if inhibitor hasnt been used all the time.

[lksmith]

the last puller I made I used 1" fine thread high strength all thread, turned a stepped puck on my lathe out of 1" steel plate 1"x 2" or 1x3, its been a while, bar stock to make bridge to go outside sleeve and onto the top of the block used several grade 8 washers under nut with lots of grease and had to put a piece of steel pipe over the box wrench on the nut to get the sleeve started out. that was on an old ford 8n or 9n I don't remember which one, some sleeves can be real tough to get moving out. OTC used to make very high quality sleeve puller sets and pucks in many sizes if you can't make your own.

as far as used pistons if they are in good shape might want to at least get new rings.

I got new rings, rods, gaskets ang jugs. Went ahead and got fuel filters and valve stem sleeves since they're cheap and don't add to shipping.
I'll get some dry ice tomorrow and see if it works, it certainly can't hurt.
Hopefully with the puller keeping pressure the ice will shrink it enough. SHOULD be a pretty quick and easy job once they're out.
I will have to polish one small spot where the electrode touched the head between the cylinders after the the welder shocked the crap out of me

[jim147]

Lube that puller and crank it down hard. All you need is a little temp change to get it moving again.

[farmbif]

hope you can get em out without big problem, there's an old trick of putting new sleeves in freezer to shrink em a bit before putting them in block and using a little dish detergent or some guys use glycerin , from a pharmacist, for lube

[lksmith]

Tried the dry ice thing, while cranking the puller. No dice. Found a 10ton puller with several pucks for under $200 delivered. I can't get one made for that. Also, with the generator that I run my welder off of on the fritz I am extremely limited in my fabrication ability.
Once I get the sleeves out it OUGHT to go back together fairly easily (I hope). Will certainly try to sleeve in the freezer thing though.

[Soundguy]

bummer. once the sleeve is out.. look for lots of rust.

ps.. hope the sleeve isn't damaged locking it in place somehow.

[lksmith]

bummer. once the sleeve is out.. look for lots of rust.

ps.. hope the sleeve isn't damaged locking it in place somehow.

the sleeve is toast regardless, I just hope the bore that the sleeve goes into is good, which it should be

[jim147]

I've never put wet sleeves in a freezer. Dry sleeves yes.

Once you have the old sleeves out and clean the holes up the new sleeves should drop in by hand without the o rings to measure surface protrusion.

[Soundguy]

the sleeve is toast regardless, I just hope the bore that the sleeve goes into is good, which it should be

That was my point..hope there isn't a hidden window the piston is hiding.

[gwrench]

I don't have experience with sleeves but with lots of experience fighting stuck parts. The hot/cold trick is a good one.

I had a front axle pivot bolt on a tractor stuck hard. 3/4 impact couldn't budge it with heat on the axle. Fortunately the bolt was hollow and with ice inside, heat outside and the 3/4 impact it finally came loose.

[lksmith]

That was my point..hope there isn't a hidden window the piston is hiding.
The only sleeve damage from the piston/rod is at the very bottom a chink is taken out. The bores are good.

[john.k]

I would not put the sleeve in the freezer for installation for the reason it may make the rubber seal hard or brittle......Its dry sleeves that are shrunk by cold for installation.....for instance the old 711 Mack needed liquid nitrogen to get the required 008 shrink for installation.......the -170 deg cold made the liner a drop in to the block...you had to wear thick padded gloves to avoid frostbite...or worse.

[lksmith]

FINALLY got the sleeves pulled! Ended up buying a hydraulic puller, made easy work of it. the sleeves looked good for their age, still had crosshatching in most of the bore. Not a lot of rust on them or in the block either. Now to see if I can put it back together AND it run

[Plate plinker]

That’s great news. Watching this thread for educational purposes.

[john.k]

When installing the new liners ,its critical that the liner seating ledge in the top of the block is perfectly clean,and a good idea to blow out (with compressed air) the seating just before the liner is pushed down the final 1/2"......if any uneven seating due to dirt ,burrs,etc stops the liner from seating evenly all round ,the top flange may crack off the liner when the head is tightened down.

[JWFilips]

Did Not read this whole thread:
We have a 22 HP Yanmar Diesel Tractor ( Circa 1970's)
Runs very well & heavily used.... only Serious Problem we had ( Manifesting itself in many different ways driving us crazy ) was the battery ground strap connection which corrodes and the wire to the starter being too small gauge...needed to beef it up

[jim147]

Will the new sleeves drop in by hand?

[lksmith]

Will the new sleeves drop in by hand?

they look like they will. Making sure to clean everything before putting the new sleeves and other parts in.
Got them out, got the o-rings out, and then the rain started moving in.
I'm working on it out in the yard and covering with a tarp in between, so at the mercy of the weather

[ruger1980]

Like John said make sure the liner counterbore is spotless clean and the O-ring roove as well. We used to use a good wire wheel on a die grinder to clean out the groove and counterbore as well as the deck of the block. A gasket prep disk like they sell will remove metal and can upset the level of the deck surface is use too aggressively. Ohh and plug the holes over the lifters before cleaning and clean and blow out the headbolt holes when finished.

Ideally you should drop the liners in without o-rings and measure liner protrusion as mentioned previously. But if the counterbores look good and when you drop the liners in and you can feel they are above the deck surface buy catching them with your fingernails they are probably OK. I have the tooling to check that and would help ya if you were close by.

[lksmith]

Like John said make sure the liner counterbore is spotless clean and the O-ring roove as well. We used to use a good wire wheel on a die grinder to clean out the groove and counterbore as well as the deck of the block. A gasket prep disk like they sell will remove metal and can upset the level of the deck surface is use too aggressively. Ohh and plug the holes over the lifters before cleaning and clean and blow out the headbolt holes when finished.

Ideally you should drop the liners in without o-rings and measure liner protrusion as mentioned previously. But if the counterbores look good and when you drop the liners in and you can feel they are above the deck surface buy catching them with your fingernails they are probably OK. I have the tooling to check that and would help ya if you were close by.

I used a lint free rag to wipe the areas out. No snags. Pulled out the old o-rings and cleaned the grooves. Slid them in went in by hand all but the last 3/8" or so, put a block of wood across the top and a quick rap on the wood and it went in flush. Was getting ready to put the pistons back in and found out that one had cracked one of the riser areas between the top two rings. so now to order another piston and wait another week.

[lksmith]

Here's the old rod vs new rod. Both looked like this
282413

[jim147]

That's a pretty good bend. Sure don't need to put that in a rod jig to know it's not right.

[screwcutter]

Here's the old rod vs new rod. Both looked like this
282413

If both rods were bent like that, I would replace both pistons!

[jim147]

I missed the both, how smooth does that crank turn?

[lksmith]

I missed the both, how smooth does that crank turn?

easily turns by hand just like turning a heavy piece of pipe on a rail. Nothing seems to catch or feel off, but then again, I'm not a a mechanic.

Apparently the rear cylinder cycled the water and exhausted it into the manifold, bending the first rod (and probably damaging the piston) and then the engine stopped when the second cylinder filled with water (bending that rod but not breaking the piston) since it still had water in the cylinder.

[Plate plinker]

Amazing that the entire engine didn't suffer more serious damage.

[lksmith]

Amazing that the entire engine didn't suffer more serious damage.

Everybody says that these things are tough and nearly unkillable, guess I accidently proved it.
Guess I'll find out for sure whenever the other piston comes in

[lksmith]

OK, so I got the engine back together except for the exhaust and belt drive. Still gotta tighten a few clamps and top off the coolant once the block fills.
The good: Got it to start! to quote a line from City Slickers, "I'm happier than a puppy with two peters!"
The bad: Ended up breaking the top ring as I was putting the last piston in, so had to order another set at $60.


Now to tighten clamps, and put all the other parts back on and hope that I don't have to do anything else to it for another 40 years

[jim147]

Sucks on the ring but like casting it is a learning curve. Glad you got it running.

[john.k]

The motor in my 70 year old crane was frozen from rainwater ,freed it up,and drilled some 1/4 holes in the bottom of the exhaust manifold.......wont get water in the cylinders again.

[Mk42gunner]

Glad you got it running.

Sucks to be putting something together and get caught doing something you know not to do. I did that a couple of weeks ago when replacing bearings in cast iron idler sheeves for a Woods belly mower. Replacement sheeve with bearing was $76 plus gas and time to go get it.

I supported it across the edge of the pulley, not near the center. When I realized what was happening, I couldn't stop putting pressure on the press fast enough. Crack.

As I told the parts man, "Stupidity should be painful".

At least I have a new bearing in the shop for when these wear out, IF I can remember it.

The new to me old Kubota sure does cut grass well though.

Robert

[lksmith]

Sucks on the ring but like casting it is a learning curve. Glad you got it running.

You're right! Never tried to rebuild a diesel before, and only the second engine I've tried to rebuild. I think the other one might run again one day ;)

Only problem now, is the darn thing is harder to start than ever before. Just has to crank and crank and crank before it'll kick off. I hope that's due to the rings and sleeves getting seated and temporary

[popper]

You know how difficult it is to find a crank pully for a 54 austin 100 in 65? I did learn how to remove them without breaking, afterwards.

[lksmith]

Well the Saga continues...SMH
Got it together (except for one clamp) tried to move it, and it has almost no power. Driving it across the yard and hot specs of something (ash I hope) started coming out of the stack hitting me and burning a hole in one of my good shirts. Shut it down immediately. But feel like I'm back at square one. The only part of the rotating assembly that could be removed without splitting, that wasn't replaced is one piston.
It fit tighter in the sleeve than the new one, but measured in round and everything moved as it should. not sure what the problem is. Hope fully something easy like ash blowing off and an airleak in an injector.

Any other ideas?

[downzero]

Did you make adjustments to the injection timing? That might explain the low power and the difficulty starting.

[lksmith]

Did you make adjustments to the injection timing? That might explain the low power and the difficulty starting.

Nope. I moved/changed the bare minimum. I didn't adjust with any fuel, timing, or valve train parts.
Only thing I did to the fuel system (other than unhook fuel lines) was change the fuel filter. Made sure to fill it with fuel and it ran after, so ruling that out as a cause

[Mk42gunner]

Run your valves again, the new head gasket may be thicker than the old one. That will change valve lash, and make a big difference in performance.

Got all the air out of the injector lines? Should be since you had it running, but its an idea.

Robert

[john.k]

Yes,with the motor running ,loosen each injector pipe nut just enough for fuel to drip from the nut...any air will come out as foam ,close the nut and the motor should run evenly again.....do the other cylinder the same.......its likely the burning bits in the exhaust are carbon and rust loosened when the head was taken off......If anything is wrong with a piston/cylinder,the motor wont turn over easliy after stopping ,or refuse to turn........Some of the little motors its hard to get the system full of coolant/water again,they get airlocks in places..........WARNING...fuel spray from the nut/pipe is very dangerous if you touch it ,or it penetrates your skin........get medical treatment straight away.

[jim147]

I agree on the burning bits being loose stuff in the exhaust from being shaken around taking it apart and putting back together. I've seen it.

No power? Not sure from here is everything back in its original place? Did you have the cam out? I would need to look that engine up to see what sets timing and injector adjustment. Some are very touchy if the injector timing and adjustment is set by the cam.

Been a lot of year since I did the diesel tractor engines. Outside jumping a 4020 last weekend.

[lksmith]

I agree on the burning bits being loose stuff in the exhaust from being shaken around taking it apart and putting back together. I've seen it.

No power? Not sure from here is everything back in its original place? Did you have the cam out? I would need to look that engine up to see what sets timing and injector adjustment. Some are very touchy if the injector timing and adjustment is set by the cam.

Been a lot of year since I did the diesel tractor engines. Outside jumping a 4020 last weekend.

Didn't mess with cam, or fuel.
All I know is that whatever it was hurts when it melts into your shirt!

[lksmith]

Yes,with the motor running ,loosen each injector pipe nut just enough for fuel to drip from the nut...any air will come out as foam ,close the nut and the motor should run evenly again.....do the other cylinder the same.......its likely the burning bits in the exhaust are carbon and rust loosened when the head was taken off......If anything is wrong with a piston/cylinder,the motor wont turn over easliy after stopping ,or refuse to turn........Some of the little motors its hard to get the system full of coolant/water again,they get airlocks in places..........WARNING...fuel spray from the nut/pipe is very dangerous if you touch it ,or it penetrates your skin........get medical treatment straight away.

it did act like it was overheating, power wise. I put about a gallon of antifreeze in it, and was going to add water as needed until it filled up

[john.k]

Overheating as such wont affect the power of a diesel..........a sign the motor has problems is black smoke along with low power... something dragging in the motor ....partial seizure......Any motor that gets hot quickly is a bad sign ,and the cause needs to be fixed.

[lksmith]

Overheating as such wont affect the power of a diesel..........a sign the motor has problems is black smoke along with low power... something dragging in the motor ....partial seizure......Any motor that gets hot quickly is a bad sign ,and the cause needs to be fixed.

I remember when I would get low on coolant in the summer (bushhogging) it would loose power like it was starving for fuel and die. Let it cool for a bit and it would go again. Fixed the coolant problem (no expansion tank) and the problem went away.

[john.k]

losing coolant while running can be a sign of a cracked head (assuming there are no radiator leaks /waterpump dripping etc.).....another sign is bubbles/froth /foam in the coolant while running.........cracked head could also be the cause of water in the cylinders..........this isnt uncommon in 71 series GMs ,and results in bent rods and busted pistons .

[Gator 45/70]

losing coolant while running can be a sign of a cracked head (assuming there are no radiator leaks /waterpump dripping etc.).....another sign is bubbles/froth /foam in the coolant while running.........cracked head could also be the cause of water in the cylinders..........this isnt uncommon in 71 series GMs ,and results in bent rods and busted pistons .

All the 71 series engines have a fusible heat plug that melts at 257 degrees, It's in the head.
Same on 53's and 92's, If you see it melted its a real good chance the head has cracked.

Pict added, Look for this plug, Doesn't matter if its 2 valve or 4 valve, They all are in the 71 series heads

[lksmith]

All the 71 series engines have a fusible heat plug that melts at 257 degrees, It's in the head.
Same on 53's and 92's, If you see it melted its a real good chance the head has cracked.

Pict added, Look for this plug, Doesn't matter if its 2 valve or 4 valve, They all are in the 71 series heads

found the plug, it's intact. The coolant loss was due to the coolant expanding and overflowing. Without an expansion tank it ran out, added tank and whenever it cooled it sucked coolant back where it belonged.

Going to see if I can find torque values for the head nuts and make sure I have them tight enough. Not sure if I have to crush the head gasket a little or if I just need to match the feel.

[lksmith]

I think I found and fixed the power issue. I retorqued the head nuts, and noticed that a valve wasn't moving, turns out a pushrod had moved out of place (guess I didn't have it all the way in) Starts Much easier now. Still acts like it's a little weaker but that could be the rings wearing in. Now I just have to figure out why my 4wd won't engage, apparently the bent driveshaft mount wasn't the issue. Knew I couldn't get that lucky for it to be and easy fix.

[jim147]

Here's to hoping the rings seat. Good luck with it.

[Finster101]

So what's the latest in this continuing saga? How is it running?

[lksmith]

So what's the latest in this continuing saga? How is it running?

Seems to be running fine. Feels like it stalls out easier than I remember, but then again the last "tractors" I operated doing dirt work was my Cat D5 or my Dad's 75hp John Deere.

It certainly starts easier than it did.
I just have to figure out how to fix the 4WD problem to get full use of my tractor again

[Finster101]

Glad to hear it is running. Hopefully the 4WD issue is simple. There isn't much to the system. Check the linkages real well and make sure it is actually engaging.

[KCSO]

Sory my tractors were all johnny pops mostly hand crank. Rebuilt several of them.

[lksmith]

Glad to hear it is running. Hopefully the 4WD issue is simple. There isn't much to the system. Check the linkages real well and make sure it is actually engaging.

I'm hoping it's just a small pin sheared after 40+ years. The driveline and axle are good and working, when I engage the lever, it seems to try, but won't quite catch. All teh external stuff looks to be working as it should. I'm about to the hydraulic fluid change interval so will probably look at it then. I think that part of the system shares fluid with the powershift trans and hydraulics