Cimarron 1875 Outlaw?

[Cargo]

My son is lusting after the 1875 in .357 magnum. I'm a little concerned about the strength of the gun with heavier loads. I don't redline but I do like heavier loads of 2400 and H110 and want to make sure it can handle it.

I've tried to steer him towards a Blackhawk but he doesn't like the feel and balance.

Thoughts, opinions, experiences?

[Lefty Red]

Personally, I wouldn’t redline the 1875. But it’s a heavy pistol. And I never had a 357 BH that shot worth a hoot. I only have one, and that’s a 38/9mm convertible that sits in the cabinet. But it will handle any 357 load.

My Italian SAA and other cones are for fun and collecting. I do shoot them, a lot actually. But no way they will last as long or handle the loads a BH will.

Lefty

[Mk42gunner]

My gut is telling me to treat it like an Italian SAA clone and not like a modern Ruger.

Robert

[Bigslug]

I can't speak to the strength, but one thing that turns me off that package in .357 is the WEIGHT. The gun has the same external dimensions as the "starts with a 4" caliber models it was designed around, but they drilled MUCH SMALLER holes in it. They just feel better as .45's.

You might also try him on either a Ruger Bisley or Freedom Arms (also uses the Bisley grip angle). You either love them or hate them.

[Cargo]

I can't speak to the strength, but one thing that turns me off that package in .357 is the WEIGHT. The gun has the same external dimensions as the "starts with a 4" caliber models it was designed around, but they drilled MUCH SMALLER holes in it. They just feel better as .45's.


We looked at the .45 but would have to order the .357 so we were unaware of the weight increase. A very valid point that probably saved me $600 and a very disappointed teenager.

[Lefty Red]

Had I nice long post written out, then computer crashed!

Oh well, I was long winded anyways so will just say have him look at the BH in 41 magnum. Will smoke the 357 and hang with the 44 and feels/handle great.

Wanted to state that the clones from Pietta, Uberti, EMF, and etc are very well made reproductions of the SAA and other earlier pistols. You can even get them with upgraded parts and better sights. But the SAA had its flaws and could handle only so much pressure. Elmer Keith wrote of blowing his SAAs up trying to get close to what would be known as “44 magnum” levels. So the new clones, even with today’s metals, can only handle so much pressure do to its limited design. Putting small parts from the clones next to modern Ruger BH/Vaquero parts will show the difference. Modern designed SAs are just plain stronger.

I have the basic/inexpensive models from EMF and Pietta that I took I took in on trade toward one Uberti NM Cattleman II in. 357, that just didn’t handle/feel right to me. The gentleman liked the looks of the “cowboy” guns but didn’t want to be bothered with reloading for the 45LC so a deal was made! Both of these clones shot POA/POI at 15 yards and I never had to touch the cylinder throats! But these pistols were never meant to handle heavy pressure loads. Even the new Ruger Vaqueros won’t hold up to the Blackhawk loads. So pick the right pistol for the job. But can say the two big Italian clone makers, Pietta and Uberti, are good to go.

There is another option, but I think they are way over priced, the Ruger Vaquero in 357. But same thing, watch the loadings . The new versions are not BHs. But have heard they are stronger than the Italian clones.

Lefty

[kaiser]

I have an Cimarron Outlaw in a Colt .45. It is a well made, finished sidearm. No, it is not as strong as the "original" Vaquero; but it doesn't handle like one either! The only thing I do not like is its short cylinder, which limits COAL to factory specs. I've mostly read from U.S. users of how the "heavy cowboy" pistols are so much stronger, thus will handle any published reload listed. I have owned a few of the heavyweights and and don't really care for a sidearm that weighs have as much as a carbine and recoils like a "sawed off" shotgun (my exaggeration and hyperbole - noted!).

Every time I hear of a European or Italian "clone", it is followed by descriptions of weak designs, or less than capable of handling the pressures of a U.S. (name: Ruger, Freedom Arms, etc.) made pistol. Now I am as Pro American as any Vet, and bleed "Red, White, and Blue"; however, I will never be convinced that Uberti, Beretta, Sako, etc. design firearms that just barely manage to get by SAMMI specs when European specs (in some cases) are even higher. Even Cimarron has a bit more steel between cylinder holes than a Colt Frontier. While the .357 has been housed in just about every revolver known to man, including a "J" frame S&W, do you really think a Cimarron is a "weaker" version? I too do would not care for an Outlaw in a .357 because of the heavier barrel and cylinder (smaller cartridge holes), that's why I chose the .45 Colt. I've owned the original, "big" Vaquero in the .45 and can testify to .44 Mag (close) velocities with the same recoil levels. I've also owned the New Vaquero and preferred its heft and balance to the old. I'll keep my clones; they ride comfortably in a holster that doesn't weigh me down and provide enough fire power for my purposes. My .02

[Mk42gunner]

Kaiser, you bring up a good point in that while the various clones may not be as strong as a large frame Ruger, even their newer small frame Vaquero's aren't as strong. They are however strong enough for 99% of the recreational shooting that will be done with them.

My point was not to treat it like a New Model Blackhawk, but to feed it sensible loads.

Back when I was thinking of taking up Cowboy shooting, I bought a 5½" Ruger Bisley Vaquero, the first ones with the large frame. As things turned out, I wish I had gotten an adjustable sight model; truthfully a lighter one would be nice too.

Robert

[missionary5155]

As the old thinking goes if you need a 45 magnum it has been around a long time.... .454 Casulle. He should have called it what it is.

[onelight]

I can't imagine a 45 framed revolver of modern manufacture chambered in 357 not being safe with full power 357 loads .
What causes you guys to say they are not ?

[littlejack]

Plus 1 onelight. If its chambered for the 357 cartridge, why not shoot 357's in it? Any factory 357 loads.

[Tar Heel]

Bingo for onelight and littlejack. It will shoot any factory fodder or handloads within the industry accepted pressure levels. If you want more power, get a 41 or 44 Magnum. To load to the redline is to live by the consequences.

[Cargo]

Plus 1 onelight. If its chambered for the 357 cartridge, what not shoot 357's in it? Any factory 357 loads.
I don't remember the last time I saw factory .357 for sale.

The strength question is because I like warmer loads in the GP100s and I want to make sure the gun is solid enough in case my wife or son grabs the wrong ammo. This seems fairly sensible to me.

[gpidaho]

I've only owned one Cimarron, that being a 1858 Remington 44 with the Colt 45 conversion cylinder. It shot very well with black powder loaded 45 Colt or smokeless rounds of that level. I liked the feel of that revolver but sold it to fund another purchase I just had to have. Well, Midway had a. 1858 revolver listed. It's called the Outlaw and is chambered in 44-40. I have the old model Ruger Vaquaro that will handle heavy loads, so I have all the 44-40 fixin's. I'll let you all know how this Cimarron purchase turns out. Gp

[Texas by God]

I had a Uberti made 1875 Remington. 45 Colt and it was very well made. It had a short cylinder which made bullet selection important, but it was a shooter! I don't know about the .357 version, but it should be ok at reasonable load level.
I second Lefty Red on the .41 Blackhawk suggestion. The 4-5/8" is light to carry and easy to shoot, even with the Elmer loads. And all kinds of fun with Special level loads.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Cargo]

I may have to find a 4 5/8 BH for him to look at. IIRC the one he looked at was a 7.5 so the shorter barrel and better balance might sway him to the Ruger. Call me biased but I love Ruger wheelguns.

[gpidaho]

I have several Rugers. 45 Colt old model Blackhawk with the 45ACP conversion cylinder. The 41mag Blackhawk, the Vaquaro 44-40 and 357 GP100 along with a 45 auto. I love my Rugers but, all the revolvers I own have tight cylinder throats and the auto had no throat at all. Doug Phillips fixed the 44-40 and the 45 auto and I really should sent him the 45 and 41 and have the throats honed. I've been getting by with them because I powder coat my bullets and can use .410 and .451 bullets without leading. Gp

[littlejack]

Cargo, not trying to bust anyones cajones.
You stated that you didn't "redline" when loading, but liked heavy loads. Ok, if your loads are "heavy" but not "redline" or "max", I would take a SWAG that they are under SAAMI maximum pressures. So why worry. I'm just curious.
Regards

[Walks]

Lefty Red,
I've never owned a NM Blackhawk in .357Mag that wouldn't shoot X-Rings at 25yrds. The 2 I've kept all these years are a 1974 .357/9mm 6 1/2" and a 1975 .45Colt 4 5/8".

In My heyday the .357 would shoot box after box into that X-Ring of the #358156 over Max 2400.
I haven't hot loaded a .45Colt since I bought My own .44Mag about 1978 or so.
Wouldn't have liked it if one of My "idiot" friends at the time had stuck a Magnumized .45Colt into My BRAND NEW 3rd Gen SAA and blew it to pieces. So I followed My Dad's guidelines and stopped loading hot .45Colts and .38Spls.

To get back to the question; I've had a Uberti 1875 .45Colt 7 1/2" bbl for about 25yrs. It would hold a 2 inch group at 50ft, which is all I ask of a Revolver that I Cowboy shoot with.
The 1875 is also offered in 5 1/2" bbl. So is the 1890 model.
Although the New Vaquero ain't a bad gun either. Throw away the cheap grips and put on a decent set of wood and ya got a real nice shooter.

If possible let the Kid handle as many Revolvers as possible. Weight and balance are a very personal choice. So is the power of the ammunition.
There should be Texan's somewhere that have one they'll let your Youngster try.

[Lefty Red]

Walks,
You kept the best one, as have I, a BH in 357/9mm. But I will stand on my and several shooting buddies experience and keep away from BHs in 357. But, I have to say my BH Convertible shoots 9mm into a ragged hole at 25 yards.
Lefty

[45 Dragoon]

The European proofing for firearms is a fair bit higher than the U.S.A. standard. Your Uberti or Pietta reproductions will run full strength loads with ease!

Mike

[junkbug]

It seems that there is confusion about ultimate strength (hot loads) as apposed to the ability to digest thousands of say "average" factory 158 grain jacketed magnum loads. This would be in contrast to being able to sustain firing tens of thousands of cowboy action loads. I do not have the answer, but surely an Italian clone can handle plenty of factory magnum level ammunition, before it needs to have small parts replaced.

[gpidaho]

The 44-40 "Outlaw" arrived today. Very pretty revolver with the case hardened coloring on the frame and bluing on the barrel. Looks very sturdy I do wish it was 6" barrel but the 7 1/2 will do. It measures a lot better than my old model Vaquero excepting the cylinder is shorter being only 1.555 overall. The chamber neck is .445 and the throats .432+. The barrel slugs .431. Shouldn't have sold my Saeco #444 the bullets on hand fit best of any 44 bullets I have seating to the crimp groove. Oh well, it was just a one cavity so I ordered a 43 200QL Three cavity from Tom at accurate. It should be here by the time I shoot up the #444s The Accurate mould is a very slightly heeled bullet that I ordered .429 heel and .434 body should work for my old Ruger and the new Uberti. I'll let you know more after a range trip. Gp

[45 Dragoon]

It seems that there is confusion about ultimate strength (hot loads) as apposed to the ability to digest thousands of say "average" factory 158 grain jacketed magnum loads. This would be in contrast to being able to sustain firing tens of thousands of cowboy action loads. I do not have the answer, but surely an Italian clone can handle plenty of factory magnum level ammunition, before it needs to have small parts replaced.

Hmmmmm . . . what "small parts"? Never replaced anything in my Uberti made El Patron Competition .45C /45acp. Sold it to a " shooter" buddy of mine and it has become his favorite as well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with firearms from Italy. Like i said, they build them to higher standards than the run of the mill USA built SA's. Colt, to date , has still never offered a 44mag.SAA but Uberti has offered the 44 mag Cattleman for quite sometime.

Mike

[Walks]

I shot a pair of Colt SAA's in .44Spl for almost 25yrs of Cowboy Shooting.
My Kids shot Uberti clones for over 10 of those years.
In the "Glory" days of Cowboy Shooting in SoCal you could shoot every Sat & Sun. We shot about 5-6 times a month. They each used a pair of EMF Revolvers. All had action jobs and were feed a std .38Spl load. With about 10 stages per match that's about 250rds per gun per month. We also went to the indoor range 1-2 a week. My Son liked to shoot My .357Mag Blackhawk in His clones too. At least a box a week.

Never replaced a single part. Except a broken hand on My Left Hand Colt.

I shot many thousands of the "Skeeter Load" in My .44 Colt's long before I switched to the lighter loads for Cowboy Shooting.

The only Italian SA clones that I've ever seen come apart were from ammo loaded on a dillon by some noob idiot.

Many feel the Italian guns are inferior to American made. If that is so ? Why have all the Top SASS Shooter's shot them for so many long years. I know one Shooter who uses an 1866 Rifle for 1,000 plus rounds a year for 30yrs, come next month. Routine cleaning and teardown every year. Smooth as glass. Never been touched by a Gunsmith.

[lightload]

My gun shop has the Cimarron 1875 357. I have a couple questions. On is do their chambers required Doug Guy's treatment.

The other question is about its safety. Does it have a Ruger New Model type or something else or none?

[gpidaho]

I can't say about the 357 Outlaws but my 44-40 has generous throats @.432 and is old style Colt single action as the firing pin is on the hammer and you need to leave the hammer down on an empty chamber when carrying. The Cattleman revolvers have a transfer bar. Gp

[Kyle M.]

I can't say about the 357 Outlaws but my 44-40 has generous throats @.432 and is old style Colt single action as the firing pin is on the hammer and you need to leave the hammer down on an empty chamber when carrying. The Cattleman revolvers have a transfer bar. Gp

I don’t know about Pietta but I believe Uberti has two variations. My 2016 and 2019 produced cattleman’s have the firing pin on the hammer. I feel like I’ve heard of them having a model with a transfer bar though. I’ve seen a ton of SAA clones from both brands for sale and I’ve never seen one without the firing pin on the hammer.

I personally prefer the old Colt style to the transfer bar and I really don’t care for the new model ruger system with no half cock.

[gpidaho]

Kyle My Outlaw is an Uberti and I'm only going by the owners manual as it shows the variations. I don't own a Cattleman myself. I'm impressed with the quality of these revolvers. Gp

[Kyle M.]

Kyle My Outlaw is an Uberti and I'm only going by the owners manual as it shows the variations. I don't own a Cattleman myself. I'm impressed with the quality of these revolvers. Gp

I do know that both of mine have some weird retractable firing pin. It looks like the original Colts but apparently retracts and puts no pressure on the primer if carried hammer down on a live round. Like I said I feel like I’ve heard talk of transfer bars in Uberti revolvers but maybe it was just a stop gap used between the original style and the new retractable firing pin?

I’m also quite impressed with mine. I have a .45 Colt “Frisco” with charcoal bluing and faux pearl grips. The other is the “El Patron” both with 5.5” barrels. I also have a Uberti Remington New Model Army with the case hardened frame and a Howell’s old west .45 Colt conversion cylinder.

I used to have a 6.5” barreled Uberti .44-40/.44 special convertible model made in 1969 according to the date code. I don’t know when these first came out but it had a two digit serial number preceded by an L

[Kevinakaq]

Me and Frank James like our 1875 in 44 wcf...

Nice balance, sweet trigger, all around great firearm.