45-70 fillers

[WHITETAIL]

Yes Boys and Girls I posted a new thred about
useing pure cotton balls as filler in the 45-70.
I am trying to find out if anyone has done this?
The idea is to load a 330 Gould bullet with
IMR 4198 and use a cotton filler.:coffeecom

[hiram]

I've read more than once--- no fill in a straight case, you can ring the chamber. try 5744 and trail boss. 5744 is not position sensitive.

[Doc Highwall]

I second the use of AA-5744, that is what I use.

[kingstrider]

I've read more than once--- no fill in a straight case, you can ring the chamber. try 5744 and trail boss. 5744 is not position sensitive.

What does it mean to ring the chamber?

[Don McDowell]

Fillers are a bother left over from days gone by when folks didn't want to load black in the large cases, and the suitable smokeless powders for cast bullet shooting in rifles was limited. Fillers have also been shown to cause some unusuall pressure spikes, and cause chamber rings.
Scrap the cotton balls in the cartridge and use a proper powder 5744 comes to mind. 3031,4895, and your 4198 all work well with no fillers.

[Pepe Ray]

I don't know why it is ignored but. SR4759 is the "original" BP replacement powder when moving to smokeless. It was created by DuPont specifically for the old BP cartridges.
Perhaps because during a period of declining interest in the old rifles and BP shooting (30's thru '60's ?) it was discontinued for a while. Then when interest began again it was reintroduced, but never caught up and 5744 was introduced the gunrag boys pushed it. Its applications are many in cast boolet shooting.
Pepe Ray

SR4759

[Don McDowell]

Pepe I know several people that shoot 4759, myself included. It uses about the same charge weight as 5744, but for the most part does/has not delivered the accuracy that I can get from either 5744 or 4227.

[felix]

Don, it probably will by changing something, like to put the load into a completely different velocity range. Try for a velocity changes in 300 foot per second increments, backwards and forwards of the load that works for 5744 or 4227. ... felix

[Doc Highwall]

Kingstrider, what happens is with a light load as in a 45/70 say 10 grains of Unique, a re loader will put something like cotton balls or tissue paper and push it down with enough force that it makes a somewhat hard wad on top of the powder keeping it against the flash hole with a large air space between it and the base of the boolit. Now when the gun is fired the already compressed wad becomes the primary projectile and the boolit now becomes a bore obstruction and when this wad hits the base of the boolit that has not begun to move yet it hits with enough force that the base of the boolit rings the chamber.

[August]

After finding a wad that burned in the case and never went anywhere, and after finding a ring in the chamber of a very expensive rifle, I vowed never to use fillers again in the old cases.

Like others have said, I have had very good performance from 4759. It seems to get better as loads get heavier. In fact, right at the point where I don't enjoy shooting it anymore because of the recoil, it starts to get very accurate. There's a sweet spot with 4759 that you'll find pretty quickly with some development. I've moved away from 5744 because of its tendency to leave unburned powder everywhere. It is consistent though.

Of course, the best loads for this round are black powder.

I have used Unique with success. It is a very consistent powder in the big cases for some reason.

I don't think I said anything that others didn't already contribute, but one more vote can't hurt your decision making.

Enjoy!!!!!!!!

[405]

Doc HW,
Yes, that is the way the ringing thing can happen as I understand it. The bullet sitting in the case is the bore obstruction. The physical law that seems to be at play is kinetic energy vs inertia. Since kinetic energy is defined by the square of the velocity, the "force" of collision between two solids (wad and bullet) and the subsequent obturation at point of impact (area of chamber ring) is why something as simple as a more or less solid fiber wad with only an inch or two of room to get going can cause so much problem.

[bcp477]

Certainly, if fillers are used incorrectly, they can cause a host of problems. That is true of most anything. However, used correctly, fillers can be an aid to accuracy - and can serve their purpose without ever causing any "chamber ringing", or any other problem. So, to simply condemn the use of all fillers is ridiculous. I would certainly agree that, if someone doesn't fully understand how they work and what to do and not to do - then don't try fillers.

I have been using fillers for many years, either cotton wool or dacron fiberfill. I have used them extensively in both straight-walled and bottle-neck rifle cases....with many thousands of rounds fired. NOT one time has any problem occurred - and I've NOT had one single chamber "ringed" ....nor any other problems.

So, I would respectfully request that those who do not favor the use of fillers simply say that they are an area of handloading that needs a full understanding before trying them - rather than making a blanket condemnation of their use - that would be the FAIR thing to do.

[longbow]

I'm with bcp477!

I have used wads and fillers successfully for many years and not had a problem.

I used to load the Lyman 457124 over smokeless powder for two .45-70's, a converted Siamese Mauser with 26" barrel and a Marlin 1895 (20" or 22" barrel if memory serves).

I found the Marlin shot well but I was getting leading with the same load out of the Siamese Mauser in about the last 2" before the muzzle. Not knowing or having a resource like the Cast Boolit site 30 years ago I decided the problem must be that little extra time in the barrel resulting in too much heat or...? (probably too little or wrong lube).

My solution at the time (though not well thought out considering what I have learned) was to place a .410 fiber wad over the powder to protect the base of the bullet from the hot powder gasses (it is a plain base boolit).

I shot thousands of those loads with not a problem and no more leading.

I have since used cornmeal and Cream 'O Wheat in my two .303's with what I consider pretty good success using plain base boolits. Also, no problems at all. However, I work the loads up with the filler.

There are lots of solutions that are suitable ~ different powders, harder/softer boolits, different lubes, gas checks, paper patching, wads, granular fillers and of course combinations.

I have used all above at one time or another.

I think wads and fillers have their place as long as they are understood and loads are worked up to include them.

bcp477 sums it up very nicely in his last paragraph.

Longbow

[Don McDowell]

Felix, yes 4759 can/does make some accurate loads, but I've found that in my guns with my cast bullets 5744 will give me just enough extra to make it my favored of the two. By the way I prefer the old Dupont 4759 over the new IMR stuff.
But after 40 someodd years of loading and shooting all sorts of stuff from the classic old cartridges, to the new whizbang stuff I've still found fillers an unnecessary addition to the process, given the powders we have available to us now.

[Doc Highwall]

bcp477, I agree that fillers can be a good thing, the U.S.Govt used them in the 45-70-405 when they came out with the carbine and because of the light weight it kicked the hell out of the shooter. They,the Govt then loaded the cartridge with 55 grains of powder and used fillers to take up the space. I have used fillers in the 45-70 and the thing to remember is it is only to keep the powder close to the primer flash hole with out compression, just loose filler. If you use something like cream of wheat then it has to be compressed but now the problem is less space more pressure, also the weight of the filler in grains has to be taken into account. I have used tissue paper and cotton balls as well as kapok, now I use mostly AA5744 powder.

[jonk]

If you should choose to use a filler, the main thing is to make sure there is no space left between the top of the powder column and the base of the bullet. Take the weight of the filler into consideration when figuring your powder charge.

PSB, Pufflon, Cream of Wheat, dacron fluff, dryer lint, carded wool all make great fillers.

I've never rung a chamber yet. I did ring a barrel once by shooting it with some copious amounts of heavy motor oil in it but that was just me in my young and stupid days.

[405]

I don't arbitrarily condemn fillers. My definition of a filler is not the same as that of a wad. I use fillers a lot for low velocity smokeless loads when trying to duplicate BP velocities. Two things: 1) improper use can ring a chamber and 2) fillers generally increase pressure. So the caveat applies .... use only with enough understanding of the consequences.

They have their place, within reason, and can help accuracy in certain applications.

In the 45-70 Sharps with soft alloy bullets like those used for BP shooting and trying to stay in the BP velocity range while loading very light 5744 smokeless, I've found both accuracy and shot string velocity SDs to be excellent when using correctly done, very low density, fluffy dacron filler occupying the entire space between the powder and base of bullet.

Results of one load: 5744 + dacron
Group size- consistently under 1"@ 100yds
Velocity- ~1150 fps
Standard Dev.- 5 fps

This load rivals or exceeds the accuracy of the best of the paper patch/BP loads in this gun.

[Larry Gibson]

Big difference between a "wad" and a "filler" in reduced rifle loads. Obviously the difference is not as well known as I thought. Shotgun "wads" are also misnomers as they are really fillers. It is wads that can give probelms with "ringing" if used incorrectly or the wrong material is used. In this case a "wad" is a substance that holds the powder back against the primer and leaves an airspace between the wad and the base of the bullet. A "filler" is just that; a substance that holds the powder back against the primer and fills the spce between the powder and the bullet. Both, if done correctly, enhance the consistancy of the ignition and improve accuracy.

I no longer use wads for the simple reason that with the right fast burning powder a wad is not needed for consistant ignition. I use fillers with medium and slow burning powders. I have been using fillers for 40 years and have found dacron to be the best bar none.

If you run a search on the Single Shot thread you see the results of a fairly extensive pressure test I ran for the guys there. It was with a 45-70 and involved dacron and COW as fillers.

Larry Gibson

[longbow]

True enough Larry. The .410 fiber wad I was using was really acting as a fiber filler as it took up all the space and held the powder back against the primer. These were not light loads though, they were Hornady jacketed loads for the 1895 Marlin, only using cast.

In retrospect I may have been lucky in that I just dropped in the .410 wads to protect the boolit base but at the time did not realize a significant increase in pressure could have resulted.

I would not do that today without working up a load which included the filler.

Longbow

[Irascible]

I've used pure cotton balls with good luck, but for traveling around, as in hunting, I like to use a case full of Graff and Sons shot buffer. After the powder, I fill the case up to the top and compress it with the bullet which i crimp. Works fine. Car or airplane travel wont bother it and filler usually improves accuracy!

[KirkD]

I've used toilet paper filler in a variety of straight walled cartridges, and my standard load for my 45-70 includes one sheet of 1-ply toilet paper loosely folded and rolled, with the butt ends inserted first. I can certainly load my cartridges without the toilet paper filler, but the improvement in accuracy is just too hard a temptation to resist. I never use toilet paper fillers with powders faster than 2400 and the toilet paper is always loosely rolled and folded to completely fill the space between the powder and the base of the bullet. Even with 5744 I get improved burning consistency with toilet paper fillers (reduced E.S. and S.D. on my chronograph readings) and improved accuracy. It seems that the toilet paper does two things: First, it holds the powder against the primer for improved burning and, second, it acts as a gas check on plain base bullets and less than perfect bores.