Went and bought a smoke gun!

[Rickf1985]

Well, I just won a Black powder pistol at an auction. It is a complete kit so I hope the 100.00 I paid for it was reasonable. I have next to no knowledge about black powder guns so the learning curve starts here. This is what I got, I have to wait for them to contact me for pickup. Really hoping they haven't changed the laws in NJ so that I can still do this without a pistol permit as that will take 9 months from what I hear!!!

Lot:251 | Make:Intercontinental Arms Inc.| Model:Kentuckian |Serial #:2775 | Type:Black Powder Pistol| Caliber:.44

[rodwha]

Ok, I’ll get you started.

A .44 cal muzzleloader uses .430-5” balls as it needs a cloth patch to fill in the rest including the grooves. The patches you’ll want to try out will range from 0.010-6”. The larger the ball the thinner the patch. Usually it seems a tighter fit is more accurate but some like a looser fit as it’s much easier and faster to reload. All depends on just how accurate you want it to be. I’d suggest buying a small assortment of each to try.

The patches need some sort of black powder lube. There’s far too many and I’ve not tried anything that I like yet. Olive oil is sworn by the masses but my wife would tear my hind end if I got into it (she’s caught me looking). You certainly don’t want them wet or too moist, nor too dry. These can be found pre lubed and that’s what I’d recommend to get started with, though I read most people find better lubes.

As to percussion caps you’ll want #10, 11, or 11 magnums. You want a snug fit and not need to pinch them.

As for powder you’ll want to try out 3F. 2F can be used but it leaves more fouling and gives lower velocities, but just may end up being more accurate. You can use 4F as well, but this goes against the manufacturer’s recommendations these days. When loading pistols the general rule tends to be to start at 1/2 the caliber and work up in 5 grn increments. So for you that would be 20-25 grns to start with. And them max tends to be somewhere around caliber, for you about 45 grns, though we’re you to use 4F I’d drop the max by no less than 10-15%.

You’ll want cleaning patches, some have used old t-shirts cut into small squares. Water (I prefer warm) is really all you need but many of use use a drop of dish soap too. I run a couple of patches to dry and use Ballistol oil as it emulsifies in water and will allow any bits of water to evaporate leaving behind just the oil. Used to use WD-40 for that but it needs removing before oiling so I’ve removed that wasted step. There are many products you can use and they all have their fans.

You’ll want some anti-seize like for spark plugs. Those tiny little packs is all you need until you find you love this, shoot often, and acquire more guns.

I like the powder measures that have a funnel. These are used for rifles and usually coke graduated in 10 grn increments. Get a brass one and scratch a 5 grn mark between them. This will allow you to easily eyeball 2.5 grn increments.

And you’ll want a powder flask. Many have screw on powder measures but they come set for a single charge so there’s no adjustment unless you cut it. And that’s fine once you’ve found a charge it does well with, though I feel the measures are more precise.

Some people find cardboard over powder cards or hard felt wads seal better. You can get to that later.

[MrWolf]

Moved out of NJ 4 years ago. Black powder is no different than any other pistol. From NJ State Police web site 3 & 4:

How do you buy rifles and/or shotguns, including bb, pellet, and black powder rifles?
It is the responsibility of the seller of the rifles and/or shotguns, including bb, pellet, and black powder rifles to ascertain that the buyer has a valid Firearms Purchaser Identification Card plus one additional form of photo identification and completes a Certificate of Eligibility for each firearm. The information contained on the Firearms Purchaser Identification Card must match the identification of the transferor to be valid. A Certificate of Eligibility can be obtained at any licensed firearms dealer, or this web site. *All firearms transactions must be completed at a State licensed retail firearms dealer with the exemption of transactions between a) members of an immediate family b) law enforcement officers c) collectors in possession of a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. (See N.J.S.A. 2C:58-3 for further information)

How do you buy handguns, including bb, pellet, and black powder handguns?
Download Form
A Permit to Purchase a Handgun must be completed for each handgun transferred in this state. It is the responsibility of the seller of the handgun to ascertain that the buyer has a valid Permit to Purchase a Handgun and one additional form of identification. The information on the Handgun Purchase Permit must match the identification of the transferor. ( i.e, name address, DOB, sex, etc.) The permit must be completed by the seller and buyer. It is the responsibility of the seller to forward the copies to the appropriate authority. Instructions are printed on the permit. *All firearms transactions must be completed at a State licensed retail firearms dealer with the exemption of transactions between a) members of an immediate family b) law enforcement officers c) collectors in possession of a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. (See N.J.S.A. 2C:58-3 for further information)

Sorry but you need the permits from my understanding. Got a friend in a non communist state?
Ron

[mooman76]

As long as it has all the parts, $100 is cheap for a ML kit. I hear the Kentuckian guns were good or at least better than the CVA or Traditions BP guns. You may have a little trouble finding RBs for it. It's hard these days and being a 44 cal which uses like a .430 ball is no help. It's not unheard of but less common. Do you cast? You can get a custom cut RB mould for not a bad price.

[Rickf1985]

Ok, I’ll get you started.

A .44 cal muzzleloader uses .430-5” balls as it needs a cloth patch to fill in the rest including the grooves. The patches you’ll want to try out will range from 0.010-6”. The larger the ball the thinner the patch. Usually it seems a tighter fit is more accurate but some like a looser fit as it’s much easier and faster to reload. All depends on just how accurate you want it to be. I’d suggest buying a small assortment of each to try.

The patches need some sort of black powder lube. There’s far too many and I’ve not tried anything that I like yet. Olive oil is sworn by the masses but my wife would tear my hind end if I got into it (she’s caught me looking). You certainly don’t want them wet or too moist, nor too dry. These can be found pre lubed and that’s what I’d recommend to get started with, though I read most people find better lubes.

As to percussion caps you’ll want #10, 11, or 11 magnums. You want a snug fit and not need to pinch them.

As for powder you’ll want to try out 3F. 2F can be used but it leaves more fouling and gives lower velocities, but just may end up being more accurate. You can use 4F as well, but this goes against the manufacturer’s recommendations these days. When loading pistols the general rule tends to be to start at 1/2 the caliber and work up in 5 grn increments. So for you that would be 20-25 grns to start with. And them max tends to be somewhere around caliber, for you about 45 grns, though we’re you to use 4F I’d drop the max by no less than 10-15%.

You’ll want cleaning patches, some have used old t-shirts cut into small squares. Water (I prefer warm) is really all you need but many of use use a drop of dish soap too. I run a couple of patches to dry and use Ballistol oil as it emulsifies in water and will allow any bits of water to evaporate leaving behind just the oil. Used to use WD-40 for that but it needs removing before oiling so I’ve removed that wasted step. There are many products you can use and they all have their fans.

You’ll want some anti-seize like for spark plugs. Those tiny little packs is all you need until you find you love this, shoot often, and acquire more guns.

I like the powder measures that have a funnel. These are used for rifles and usually coke graduated in 10 grn increments. Get a brass one and scratch a 5 grn mark between them. This will allow you to easily eyeball 2.5 grn increments.

And you’ll want a powder flask. Many have screw on powder measures but they come set for a single charge so there’s no adjustment unless you cut it. And that’s fine once you’ve found a charge it does well with, though I feel the measures are more precise.

Some people find cardboard over powder cards or hard felt wads seal better. You can get to that later.

Thank you very much! That is quite the introduction to black powder shooting. And Mr. Wolf, Congrats on getting out of here and yes, I found out about the permit when I talked to the auction house. The auctioneer told me I was not the only one that thought all black powder was exempt. So now I hope I can get my permit through before he decides he no longer has room for it and resells it. He did say he would transfer it to another FFL which is good since I can have it sent to the people I usually deal with and they will hold for me until the permit goes through. I have gotten permits in the past so it might not take as long as a new buyer. And Mooman, yes I do cast and the kit is complete in the box.

[rodwha]

Being that you cast I’d suggest no larger than .440” from what I’ve read in that pistols seem to prefer a thinner patch which would give you more room to find what does well. Thinner patches tear easier.

[toot]

I use the smaller DIA.RB, and use hornet's nest over the powder & on top of the RB. and it will work.

[Rickf1985]

Are there molds out there in the .43X sizes or is this something I am going to have to have made? And are there any books that would be recommended for me to read up on for black powder shooting? For instance, terms used in black powder? Hornets nest to me means either I am going to get stung it might be some sort of packing material.

[mooman76]

Hornets nest is actual hornets nest. Find an old one and use but there are other things you can use. There books out there but not so many so finding a cheap book would be difficult. A pistol doesn't need a tight patch like a rifle. They do fine with light loads so a thinner patch makes them easier to load. There is a guy in England that makes RB moulds any size you like for a reasonable price. If you want to just play around a shoot for fun you could just shoot some .440 RBs with no patch. Accuracy will not be the same but up close won't mater too much. Sam Fadala (not sure of spelling) wrote allot of BP books.

[rodwha]

I see Lee makes a .433” mold.

I have Lyman’s 2nd Edition handbook, but I’m sure there are better books. I learned much, much more a traditional BP forum mostly.

[freakonaleash]

As long as it has all the parts, $100 is cheap for a ML kit. I hear the Kentuckian guns were good or at least better than the CVA or Traditions BP guns. You may have a little trouble finding RBs for it. It's hard these days and being a 44 cal which uses like a .430 ball is no help. It's not unheard of but less common. Do you cast? You can get a custom cut RB mould for not a bad price.

.429's are readily available. It's what I use in my .44 rifles.

[Rickf1985]

Hornets nest is actual hornets nest. Find an old one and use but there are other things you can use. There books out there but not so many so finding a cheap book would be difficult. A pistol doesn't need a tight patch like a rifle. They do fine with light loads so a thinner patch makes them easier to load. There is a guy in England that makes RB moulds any size you like for a reasonable price. If you want to just play around a shoot for fun you could just shoot some .440 RBs with no patch. Accuracy will not be the same but up close won't mater too much. Sam Fadala (not sure of spelling) wrote allot of BP books.
I have always been an accuracy fanatic, Got that from my dad at a very young age. He used to tell me that a good shooter could shoot a fly in the butt at 100 yards but an excellent shooter could shoot a gnat off that fly's tail! From that point forward I was always looking for the gnat! Granted I never hit it but I was good. There were a lot of splattered flies. LOL. Pistol I was not quite as good but I was better than most at the range. There are a couple guys there now that just flat out embarrass me and at my age I really don't care. But I still want to hit all black at 50 yards.

[T-Bird]

Lee RB molds are cheap. They make .395, .433, .440. I checked their website. These of course need to be cast pure lead.

[mooman76]

Pure lead is best but if you don't have it, alloyed lead will work for RBs.

[GregLaROCHE]

You don’t necessarily need a special lube for your patches. Plain spit works as it has for centuries.

[ogre]

Ummmm.....I see that this particular pistol is made in percussion and flintlock. Which do you have?

[Rickf1985]

Percussion.

[Hanshi]

I've had a rifle for around 55 years that came with a cheapo .435" mold. It did fine with those cast balls. Later I got a .440" mold and it loaded fine with a thin patch and shot with very good accuracy. I also recommend Lee molds as Lyman (I have a bunch from waaay back) are outrageously expensive now.

[Life Member]

I shoot flint locks and love it. Nice slow paced shooting.

[Rickf1985]

Well, It is probably going to be a couple more months at least before I can even take possession of the pistol thanks to NJ's great gun laws, I have to wait for my pistol permit to go through the system. BUT! I did buy two T/C Hawken's to hold me over while waiting, no permit needed for them! Got them from a member here,. Got a .45 and a 54.. Of coarse now I am going to need more percussion caps and there are none to be found and I have no intention of making my own. I live in NJ, If I start buying the makings of anything explosive then I am on a list that makes them very interested in what I have in my house. The governor already tried to push for home checks to see if people still had "high capacity" magazines after the new ten round law went through not a singe mag was turned in to the State Police. He wanted to know if people still had them. I think he was told that there was no legal way to just "go looking" for the magazines. But that does not mean that they will not use any excuse whatsoever to get a warrant to search. I am not giving anyone any excuses. Most people in the southern and western state do not understand how it can possibly be that bad here. Do NOT turn your back for a half second or you are likely to find out!!!

[jim 44-40]

I use ring caps that they sell for kids play gun.get them from dollar store,get the ones with white paper inside. And cut them off the ring.also had to hone down nipple a little bit so they fit better.worked with Goex and Pyrodex . Better then not shooting at all.

[Rickf1985]

Ok, I FINALLY got my gun today after all the BS I had to go through with permits. Got to look it over and it has never, ever had powder in it! It is perfectly clean, the nipple has no soot in it, The barrel is spotless all the way down. Kit is complete except there are no balls in it. Even comes with a mold that drops one ball and one bullet. I think it was worth 100.00. I will get some pics tomorrow.

[Rickf1985]

Ok, I am confused as all get out now. I have this gun that is marked as a .44 and I have been told it uses .430-.435 round balls. So I had bought some hand cast from Track of the wolf and they are ok but they kind of look like slight plump raisons. They are rough! I finally found some Hornady 44 round balls advertised at 430 so I bought two boxes. They came in and they are nice and round, or pretty close. I measured them and they come out to .441-.442. I am thinking this might be a problem since I was told the pistol needs the smaller balls and patches so I put on on the muzzle just to see how tight it is, Clunk! Right to the bottom of the barrel. Turn the gun over and with a light tap it falls back out with out a mark on it. I am thinking this is strange so I grab my calipers and measure the bore at the and of the barrel and the bore itself not in the lands is .441 and in the lands is .452! This is a .45 if I have ever seen one. Thoughts? I guess I can still use the 430 balls and 440 balls with the appropriate patches but I am wondering what I really have.

[NEKVT]

Muzzleloader caliber is typically the bore measurement so you do have a 44. Using your numbers with an example in the old Lyman 45th edition on how to fit a patch and ball to rifling:

Groove .452 minus bore .441 = .011 divided by 2 = .0055

In order for a compressed patch to fill the grooves you would need about a .010 patch (denim material is .014 for comparison). And the ball has to be less than bore diameter to allow space for the patch between the ball and lands.

Bore .441 minus one thickness of patch .010 = .431

.430 ball + .020 (two thicknesses of patch) = .45

With your bore at .452 with a .430 ball you could probably get by with denim material at .014 because the wet patch will compress on loading. If results aren't to expectations or loading too tight you can experiment with different patch thickness.

My CVA Mt Rifle is a 54. I didn't measure anything but started with .530 ball and commercially pre-cut .018 patches and got good enough results that I didn't mess any further.

I have an old box of Hornady balls marked .530 that have oxidized a bit measuring .533 on avg and a new box of Speer balls marked .530 balls that measure .531 avg for a sampling.

[yeahbub]

Whatever ball size you start out with, lay your patch material (large piece) over the muzzle, lay a ball on it and short start it into the rifling at the muzzle. Then, gather up the patching material and yank the ball back out to take a look at the cloth pattern embossed on the ball. Look for heavy-light-heavy-light embossing as you go around the ball reflecting land-groove-land-groove etc. If you see heavy-nothing-heavy-nothing, this indicates the patch isn't thick enough or you need a larger ball for the patching you have. The idea is to reduce the amount the ball has to obturate on firing to get a tight seal in the bore. This is not to say that an easy-to-load ball and patch combination won't work well, but a better seal means less leakage, no burned patches, better accuracy.

Typical rifling depth for RB barrels is .010 on a side, and following a ML rule of thumb, this calls for a ball at bore diameter minus .010" using a patch .020" thick as a place to start. This should produce marks all around the circumference of the ball. It sounds like your rifling is approximately .005 deep. In such a case the general practice is a larger ball and thinner patch, so that on firing, the ball will mechanically engage the rifling while the patch is still thick enough to seal in the grooves. Only experimentation will show you what works best, so feel free to experiment using what you have. Adjustments can always be made as you analyze results.

BTW, since your barrel is new, there may well be a tendency to foul pretty quickly and loading may be difficult due to micro-burrs and roughness from the rifling process, particularly with cut-rifled barrels. These tend to accumulate fouling fast until they're broken in, sometimes so much so that they require cleaning after every shot. If this happens, when seating the ball, use a wet patch on the loading rod and you won't have to clean between shots. In rifle barrels, we used to put an old bore brush on a rod, wrap it with fine steel wool until it's very tight in the bore, drizzle on some motor oil and give the barrel 80-100 strokes. This burnishes the bore, smoothing tooling marks without removing steel, making continuous shooting much easier. Good luck with it and let us know how it goes.

[Rickf1985]

I have always wondered about the wet patch. Won't a wet patch foul the powder it comes in contact with? Assuming you shoot right away I would think only the powder against the patch would not burn but if you do not shoot for a couple minutes I would imagine a fair amount of powder would get wet and not fire. Or am I overthinking this?

[ogre]

If you reread yeahbub's excellent post you will see that the wet patch is on the loading rod when seating the ball. In other words the wet patch does not contact the powder.

[Rickf1985]

Gotcha, with all the reading I have been doing on muzzle loading I have never seen that one.

[yeahbub]

Ogre, thanks much for the fine compliment!

Rickf1985: Ogre has it right, the wet patch on the loading rod goes on the ball-seating jag and cleans the bore a bit as you run the ball down onto the powder. But also, as you withdraw it, it leaves a fine layer of moisture on the bore which helps a good bit in keeping fouling soft and easy for the next patched ball to push in front of it. For hunting, the lube on the patch is typically a vegetable/animal oil or grease based, and allows the gun to stay loaded for extended periods. When target shooting, the gun is fired within minutes at most, usually just long enough to step to the line, cap, aim and shoot, but you needn't hurry. BP being what it is, will not be appreciably affected by a patch with water-based lube on it. There's just not a whole lot of moisture there. That immaterial smidgeon of powder in contact with the damp patch will still burn, if with less enthusiasm, and the fire against the patch will liberate moisture which also helps keep fouling soft which is all to the good.

BP is only ~49% efficient, which is to say of the byproducts of combustion, only 49% turns to gas to propel the ball/boolit, the rest is solids, most of which is obviously ejected, but what remains is that problematic fouling. Because of its relative inefficiency, the effect of a minor reduction in the load of a few granules of powder slightly dampened by the patch will never be noticed.