Duplex loads

[Goofy]

Anyone use them?

Been my favorite for large capacity cases for a fair spell.

[greenjoytj]

I think duplexing is a rule violation to use duplex BP+smokeless in shooting games competition.

I’m not a competitor in any shooting game competition but was thinking of trying 45 Colt with 2 grains of middle burn rate smokeless Hodgdon’s CFE-Pistol added and remove 6 to 8 grains of the BP from my usual amount of straight 2fg 35 to 36 grains of GOEX that I load.

I just shot off the last of my GOEX. I haven’t got enough experience with the 2fg Old Eynsford that I purchased to replace the GOEX to is see if the better quality Old Eynsford would benefit from being duplexed.
The small amount of use I have with OE make me think it might not be worth the extra aggravation of building duplexes loads at least not for use in revolvers.

Rifle usage might be totally different, if the duplex loads could hold great or greater accuracy without the need for barrel wiping every 10 to 15 shots I would definitely add duplexing as my normal BP hand-loading routine.

[Bent Ramrod]

There’s a sort of “Laffer Curve” of shooting vs. cleaning with black powder and caliber.

With normal powder charges, I do more shooting than cleaning/fouling management down to .38 caliber. With a powder charge of 50 or so grains, I still spend more time shooting than cleaning.

Below .38 caliber, I do much more cleaning than shooting with straight black, so duplexing comes in here. Generally 4 or 5 grains of 4759 (the best smokeless for duplexing I’ve found) with a properly reduced charge of black in .32-35s, .32-40s allows shooting with no cleaning at all until the session is done. I’ve also duplexed a bit with the .40-90-3-1/4” shell. The freakishly heavy powder charge needs more cleaning than other cartridges of this caliber, but not as much as the smaller bores. .25-21s and .25-25s also benefit from duplexing, with a smaller smokeless charge, of course.

With most .38 and larger bores, duplexing can be done, but the velocity variations induced may compromise the accuracy. In those cases, I’d rather do the nominal amount of cleaning, wiping, blowtubing or whatever, necessary than mess with duplexing.

One does have to check the powder levels twice, once with a flashlight to check the smokeless level and a final check on the black level before compression, but it takes less time than the cleaning between shots, for sure.

[Goofy]

I’ve used 4759 and 4227. Prefer the former. 10% of charge weight is the “booster” and the balance in BP which winds up mildly compressed. Cartridges I’ve toyed with include .25-20 SS, .38-55 and .45-70. In all cases less cleaning, and better accuracy. Probably my best day was 5 in 1.5” at 100 yds with the .45-70 and elbow rest.

[Dave T]

greenjoytj,

Of much greater importance in the 45 Colt is having adequate black powder lubricant on your bullet. Since I started loading Big Lube bullets (250g RNFP) I have routinely fired 25 rounds without needing to clean. On one occasion I fired 90 rounds through two 45 Colt single action revolvers, and neither gun required cleaning to keep functioning or to hit what I was shooting at.

I am not a fan of duplex loads for rifles and particularly not for handgun cartridges. And you will find Olde Eynsford a superior powder to GOEX, despite being made by the same folks. Think of OE as the premium brand.

Dave

[JSnover]

I've done it with .357 magnum and 45-70. It work but the loading process was tedious. In my opinion it just wasn't worth it, especially for small batches.

[greenjoytj]

greenjoytj,

Of much greater importance in the 45 Colt is having adequate black powder lubricant on your bullet. Since I started loading Big Lube bullets (250g RNFP) I have routinely fired 25 rounds without needing to clean. On one occasion I fired 90 rounds through two 45 Colt single action revolvers, and neither gun required cleaning to keep functioning or to hit what I was shooting at.

I am not a fan of duplex loads for rifles and particularly not for handgun cartridges. And you will find Olde Eynsford a superior powder to GOEX, despite being made by the same folks. Think of OE as the premium brand.

Dave

Too bad the Big Lube 250 gr bullet drops at .456” instead of a more modern .452” dia.

I have a 255gr SAECO #955 RNFP with a good size lube groove that drops at .456” after sizing to .452” the crimp groove is virtually smeared shut from displaced lead.

I’ve read the pre WW2 Colts have large bores that require bigger diameter bullets, but post WW2 barrel are .451” which use the .452” dia cast bullets.
I would think mold makers would cut their mold diameter for the modern 45 Colt bore size as the market for molds is with the new guns.

[sharps4590]

Yes, I have one rifle for which I duplex all loads but, for a different reason than most duplex. To date no straight black powder, of any brand to include Swiss or OE, has produced enough velocity for my Goldmann double rifle to regulate, with any weight bullet, after 25 years of ownership and working with the rifle. The very best load to date has been 5 grs. of SR-4759 under 70 grs. of the old GOEX Cartridge....of which I'm down to my last pound so new load development is in the future. I worked toward the least amount of smokeless necessary to achieve the required velocity.

The load shoots vey clean, as any who have used duplex loads know. It's sub 3 inch accurate, composite group, at 75 yards, open sights, which isn't bad for a 130+ year old rifle with slightly pitted bores....and 68 year old eyes.

Other than the above, I've only played with duplex loads in a couple big bores, 45-100 and 45-120. They did shoot clean and obviously the need for fouling control was significantly reduced....and honestly, accuracy was better.

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t see the point. Why not just shoot smokeless, if you don’t want to deal with fouling. However, when I am shooting BP in my 45/70, I often shoot a smokeless round or two at the end and it makes cleaning a lot easier.

[Goofy]

Well, one reason would be some guns are not suitable for smokeless loads. It's called damascus steel.

https://i.imgur.com/wYdTFDq.jpg

Another is that some want a load that permits repeatable shots w/o degradation in accuracy. Is useful for some hunting scenarios. Maybe another reason is that some just want to play with it. The target below was shot offhand at 100 yards w/o bore wiping or blow tubes.

https://i.imgur.com/dbOtflM.jpg

[Nobade]

Also because some rifles perform much better with duplexed black powder ammo than they do with straight smokeless, especially at the same pressure levels. I have quite a few that fall into that category, including a Marlin 44 mag, a Swiss Vetterli, an Argentine rolling block, a H&R 38-55, a Trapdoor, and others. None of those rifles can produce comparable accuracy using straight smokeless powder.

[sharps4590]

For me the first foray into duplex loads had nothing to do with fouling. It was to achieve the required velocity at acceptable pressure so two barrels from a double rifle would shoot together. As mentioned, it was for a 130+ year old rifle on a Lefaucheux action that isn't known for its strength. That's the point. I wish I could have gotten it regulated with straight black but it didn't happen and unless someone comes out with a new Curtis & Harvey #6, it isn't likely to happen.

Trail Boss and 5744 are both next to useless in a double. I tried both when they came out, in two different BP proofed doubles. The Goldmann and an E.M. Reilly in 500 BPE. They will not generate enough velocity at an acceptable pressure and groups were often simply wild. 5744 MIGHT work in some doubles but not all. No one I know who has tried Trail Boss in a double has come close to regulation. It's just too slow.

[Larry Gibson]

I do not shoot competition with BP so the "rule" prohibiting duplex loads mean nothing. If I'm going to shoot BP in my trapdoors, and I do frequently, I use duplex loads which replicate the 45-70-405, 45-70-500 and the 45-55-405 service loads. I use 4759 under GOEX cartridge or FFFg BP.

The reasons are several. Clean up of the rifle per se at the end of shooting isn't much different than with straight BP loads. However, during shooting, the need to maintain accuracy with straight BP loads requires wiping the fouling out of the bore every so many rounds. Doing so while shooting at the bench or even during a match poses not real problem. However, on my walk abouts in the desert of mountains I find carrying the necessary rod, patches and cleaners isn't practical. Neither is it practical when I find myself pinned down by "hostiles to the front" [rocks, stick, cowpies, pine cones, etc. please allow me amy hallucinations....] I can shoot my way out without any loss of accuracy or need of bore cleaning. With the duplex loads I do not have to wipe at all because the fouling [unburnt charcoal residue mostly] is blown out of the barrel with each shot. I have fired over 100 shots of 45-70-505 and 45-55-405 in my Officer's Model and carbine M1973s w/o wiping or cleaning and accuracy was as good at the end as at the beginning. Speaking of accuracy I also find the duplex load to be every bit as accurate as straight BP or smokeless loads. The cases also clean up easier with the duplex loads as there is no, or at least little, BP fouling inside the cases.

[cowboy4evr]

Larry , thank you for your post . I have an old Winchester 94 in 38-55 that left the factory in April 1897 , according to records . I have seriously contemplated going bp using a duplex load . I will need a bigger lube bullet . Your post put my concerns to rest . Regards Paul

[Larry Gibson]

I use Spence Wolfe's method of developing the duplex 45/70 loads and have used it the same with other cartridges. The intent was not to increase velocity or "power" but to blow the fouling out of the barrel so wiping isn't necessary. Pressure testing has proven the increase in psi is minimal if any. My duplex service load replicants are still less than the SAAMI MAP for the 45/70 intended for TD level loads.

FYI; They say the West was "won" by the '73 Winchester. Truth be told, the West was made safe by the Army with 45/70 TDs so the cowboys could "win it" with the '73s Winchesters.....

Photo is of the some of the guns mentioned which were used in a test of VV Tin Star in numerous cartridges for SASS cowboy action shooting.

280999

[sharps4590]

Larry, you mention the pressure of duplex loads. Kynoch and Birmingham Proof House tested several double rifle, duplex loads provided by Grahame Wright. I was surprised that more than a few actually tested lower pressure than the original, straight black powder loads. As with several things firearm and reloading related, what was once thought to be fact melts away in the light of fact.

[indian joe]

I’ve used 4759 and 4227. Prefer the former. 10% of charge weight is the “booster” and the balance in BP which winds up mildly compressed. Cartridges I’ve toyed with include .25-20 SS, .38-55 and .45-70. In all cases less cleaning, and better accuracy. Probably my best day was 5 in 1.5” at 100 yds with the .45-70 and elbow rest.

I tried both these and did better with 4227 --the SR 4759 I had was likely 40 years old may have been part of the reason for that.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, you mention the pressure of duplex loads. Kynoch and Birmingham Proof House tested several double rifle, duplex loads provided by Grahame Wright. I was surprised that more than a few actually tested lower pressure than the original, straight black powder loads. As with several things firearm and reloading related, what was once thought to be fact melts away in the light of fact.

I have found that also, not always but enough to know the 1st time was not an anomaly. I surmise the reason being is, with the duplexing technique of Spence's that I use, the charge of BP is proportionally reduced to the charge of smokeless powder used. Many erroneously think duplexing is just adding additional smokeless to the BP charge. Doing that, in fact, does increase pressure. The way Spence recommends duplexing is to lesson the BP charge proportionally to the smokeless powder charge which sort of evens the pressure out.

[Goofy]

Larry, thanks for your comments, very good information.

[indian joe]

I have found that also, not always but enough to know the 1st time was not an anomaly. I surmise the reason being is, with the duplexing technique of Spence's that I use, the charge of BP is proportionally reduced to the charge of smokeless powder used. Many erroneously think duplexing is just adding additional smokeless to the BP charge. Doing that, in fact, does increase pressure. The way Spence recommends duplexing is to lesson the BP charge proportionally to the smokeless powder charge which sort of evens the pressure out.

Interesting
I have kept duplexing to the stronger action guns, model 92 and 86 - experience is a gain of about 100FPS velocity - I have a chronograph but no way of testing pressure and approached this from the "no free lunch" angle

loads are full case with normal blackpowder compression - I use a LEE scoop measure, 0.5cc gives me 7 grains of 4227 - (4227 has identical density to my blackpowder so its a one for one exchange) its really a simple process to dump a scoop of 4227 down then add the black charge. Chrono test on the 86 gave me single digit ES for a string of ten shots (can get that with straight black too)

[indian joe]

I don’t see the point. Why not just shoot smokeless, if you don’t want to deal with fouling. However, when I am shooting BP in my 45/70, I often shoot a smokeless round or two at the end and it makes cleaning a lot easier.

This I dont understand? cleaning after straight black is so easy I dont get how a smokeless round or two at the end would make a worthwhile difference?

[GregLaROCHE]

This I dont understand? cleaning after straight black is so easy I dont get how a smokeless round or two at the end would make a worthwhile difference?

Actually, shooting a 45/70 lever gun and shooting smokeless after BP, I don’t need to do a water wash. I use a cable, so I pull everything out the muzzle. I use a patch with a liberal amount of Ballistol, a dry patch and finally another with Ballistol. Haven’t had a problem in three years and I check the barrel often and it’s always shiny with a lite coat of Ballistol remaining. I do remove the lever and bolt from time to time to give it a thorough cleaning, but I would do that, if I were only shooting smokeless too.

[indian joe]

Actually, shooting a 45/70 lever gun and shooting smokeless after BP, I don’t need to do a water wash. I use a cable, so I pull everything out the muzzle. I use a patch with a liberal amount of Ballistol, a dry patch and finally another with Ballistol. Haven’t had a problem in three years and I check the barrel often and it’s always shiny with a lite coat of Ballistol remaining. I do remove the lever and bolt from time to time to give it a thorough cleaning, but I would do that, if I were only shooting smokeless too.

we are not doing it all that much different really
if we had a cleaning race you might beat me by a minute (might not either)
i use a flush bottle instead of the wet patch
and I use a rod with a bore guide, one pass with a patch or brush to release the crud- then flush - repeat two or maybe three times then patch it dry - wouldnt be caught dead using a pull through after the ruined 303 brit muzzles I seen from doing it (I reckon its impossible to use a bore snake / cable / pull through without getting some rifling contact at the muzzle) yeah some of us got funny ideas but I'm sticking with this one.
the whole thing is a breeze really, any improvement is gonna be very minor.

You asked why duplex a while back - the best reason - $$$'s - ingredients for blackpowder cost less than two bucks a pound, plus 7 grains of smokeless and a primer - If I retrieve my lead from practicing I can shoot that 45/70 lever gun for near the cost of a 38special - and I have a 335 grain cast boolit doing 1500FPS - turns a big gun into a fun gun................

[Savvy Jack]

Another fine example of "Cancel Culture"

Anyone ever hear of Lesmok? "Lesmok" was the result of a duplex load. Used in quite a few cartridges. The key is understanding why it was used and using the correct smokeless powder combination.

[Nobade]

Another fine example of "Cancel Culture"

Anyone ever hear of Lesmoke? "Lesmoke" was the result of a duplex load. Used in quite a few cartridges. The key is understanding why it was used and using the correct smokeless powder mixture.

I was under the impression Lesmoke was something similar to Blackhorn 209. A smokeless powder that could be used bulk loaded. There used to be DuPont bulk smokeless also, kind of the same idea.

[Savvy Jack]

I was under the impression Lesmoke was something similar to Blackhorn 209. A smokeless powder that could be used bulk loaded. There used to be DuPont bulk smokeless also, kind of the same idea.

Not quite!

I am not gonna let folks think I know a lot about it, because I don't. What I do know is that Peters started the process with Kings Semi-Smokeless. Dupont came up with their version of the duplex load called Lesmok.

John Kort came up with loads for several cartridges that used these powders sometime between 1911 and 1947. Among them was the 44-40.

Here is a conversation regarding such loadings;

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/shasta/reloder-7-duplex-loads

[John Boy]

John Kort, the Experimenter Personified... with more knowledge capable in conversation than many folks could read from a volume of books
Oh How I Miss Him ...

[TNsailorman]

I have used a duplex load in some of my black powder .43 Spanish loads because I seem to get better ignition and cleaner brass with them. I used 5 grains of 4759 over the primer and 65 grains of FF Goex powder on top of that. I am going to have to go to a different load in the future if I duplex because the 4759 is history around here. james

[sharps4590]

TN, I'm using almost the same load in a 43 Mauser. There's other smokeless powders we can use.

[TNsailorman]

I had a fellow shooter suggest Red Dot but I think that powder might be just a mite quick for a kick starter. I may have to do some experimenting this summer or just stay with Trail Boss which I have started using more and more. james

[indian joe]

Not quite!

I am not gonna let folks think I know a lot about it, because I don't. What I do know is that Peters started the process with Kings Semi-Smokeless. Dupont came up with their version of the duplex load called Lesmok.

John Kort came up with loads for several cartridges that used these powders sometime between 1911 and 1947. Among them was the 44-40.

Here is a conversation regarding such loadings;

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/shasta/reloder-7-duplex-loads

Bryan
I dont know what others are doing but mine is a two part load - not mixed - 4227 on the primer then fill with black - thats my understanding of a duplex load

mixing then loading would seem to me either foolish - if mixed first then metered out - how would you know really how much smokeless, given how different granular materials tend to segregate themselves out in containers? -

or If the powders were mixed charge by charge that would be a very tedious process (I dont have that much patience)

as a youngster in the 60's there were a few old blokes around that had used the kings and "Lesmok" and occasionally we would see old ammo loaded with it

I started handloading my 32/20 with "shotgun ballistite" - took a can into the local pharmacist and he measured a charge that we carried carefully home in a gel capsule so we could cut a scoop measure - the learning curve was steep in those days - I remember nobels revolver powder and some IMI ball powder that didnt last long in storage

eventually I got my Dad to bring me home some proper black powder when he made a trip to Sydney he flew home on a DC3 with 5 pounds of it in his briefcase - Imagine the result these days if you stepped on a plane with that in your carryon bag - likely spend the rest of your life lookin through the bars ........

If I knew then what I know now ----....................

[Savvy Jack]

I had a fellow shooter suggest Red Dot but I think that powder might be just a mite quick for a kick starter. I may have to do some experimenting this summer or just stay with Trail Boss which I have started using more and more. james

Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder and probably should not be used in a duplex load. I believe the idea is to keep the chamber pressures low which would require a slower burning rifle powder.

[Savvy Jack]

Bryan
I dont know what others are doing but mine is a two part load - not mixed - 4227 on the primer then fill with black - thats my understanding of a duplex load

mixing then loading would seem to me either foolish - if mixed first then metered out - how would you know really how much smokeless, given how different granular materials tend to segregate themselves out in containers? -

or If the powders were mixed charge by charge that would be a very tedious process (I dont have that much patience)

as a youngster in the 60's there were a few old blokes around that had used the kings and "Lesmok" and occasionally we would see old ammo loaded with it

I started handloading my 32/20 with "shotgun ballistite" - took a can into the local pharmacist and he measured a charge that we carried carefully home in a gel capsule so we could cut a scoop measure - the learning curve was steep in those days - I remember nobels revolver powder and some IMI ball powder that didnt last long in storage

eventually I got my Dad to bring me home some proper black powder when he made a trip to Sydney he flew home on a DC3 with 5 pounds of it in his briefcase - Imagine the result these days if you stepped on a plane with that in your carryon bag - likely spend the rest of your life lookin through the bars ........

If I knew then what I know now ----....................

Yes, poor choice of words and I will edit that part. The powders are not to be "mixed" but remain separated. Smokeless on the primer followed by black out to the bullet. The black powder needs to be compressed enough to not allow the powders to "mix" over time from movement, storage and vibration.

[Nobade]

The really fast pistol/shotgun powders are not good for this. The pressure rise is too fast. I use nothing faster than Blue Dot, and not slower than IMR4198. IMR4227 is about right, as is RE7. Recently I have been using 10B101 to good effect but that's not commonly available.

[GregLaROCHE]

we are not doing it all that much different really
if we had a cleaning race you might beat me by a minute (might not either)
i use a flush bottle instead of the wet patch
and I use a rod with a bore guide, one pass with a patch or brush to release the crud- then flush - repeat two or maybe three times then patch it dry - wouldnt be caught dead using a pull through after the ruined 303 brit muzzles I seen from doing it (I reckon its impossible to use a bore snake / cable / pull through without getting some rifling contact at the muzzle) yeah some of us got funny ideas but I'm sticking with this one.
the whole thing is a breeze really, any improvement is gonna be very minor.

You asked why duplex a while back - the best reason - $$$'s - ingredients for blackpowder cost less than two bucks a pound, plus 7 grains of smokeless and a primer - If I retrieve my lead from practicing I can shoot that 45/70 lever gun for near the cost of a 38special - and I have a 335 grain cast boolit doing 1500FPS - turns a big gun into a fun gun................

The cable I use is plastic coated and the threaded parts are brass. I can’t see how it could damage the muzzle. I like the idea of a squirt bottle from the receiver side. I never thought of doing that. You still have to push the patch from the muzzle end. Doesn’t that push anything into the receiver?

[sharps4590]

The really fast pistol/shotgun powders are not good for this. The pressure rise is too fast. I use nothing faster than Blue Dot, and not slower than IMR4198. IMR4227 is about right, as is RE7. Recently I have been using 10B101 to good effect but that's not commonly available.

I have heard mention and read of 2400 being used on many occasions but, have never tried anything other than SR-4759. I have a couple pounds of it which should last as long as I last.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, duplexing is not to be confused with mixing or "blending". I have some interesting information on the blending of smokeless and BP but have not tested any.

I imagine any extruded smokeless power in the burning range of 4227 - RL7 would work. The nice thing about 4759 is/was it's bulkiness as compared to similar burning rate powders. Also the, to me following Spence Wolf's method, is cleaner burning and using just enough smokeless to blow the charcoal fouling out of the barrel.

[Gray Fox]

I have about 3/4 lb. of IMR 7625, could that be used? GF

[fgd135]

King's Semi-Smokeless originated from their 1899 patent. DuPont, not to be left out for this powder market, developed Lesmok.
Neither was a "Duplexed" powder. Lesmok, which was 60% potassium nitrate ("guncotton"), 20% wood cellulose, 12% charcoal & 08% sulfur, was developed by DuPont in 1911 one of several semismokeless products in the industry containing a mixture of black and nitrocellulose powder. It was sold to Winchester and others primarily for .22 and .32 rimfire. Its advantage was that it was less corrosive than smokeless powders then in use as the bulkier load carried away more of the (mercuric) primer residue, and had somewhat less fouling than straight black powder in that the bore did not require cleaning after every shot. It was last sold by Winchester in 1947.
Mattern's 1926 book "Handloading Ammunition" has loadings and more information on Lesmok and King's Semi-Smokeless, and other now obsolete powders.

[Savvy Jack]

I will spare the quotations for this one........This should define the words Mixture, Blend etc.


Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!

by Jim Martin

Centerfire pistol-size cartridges loaded with "Lesmok" powder were first mentioned as available in W.R.A.Co.'s catalog No.77 (October 1911), and were last mentioned as available in No.80 (1916). During those years, centerfire pistol-size cartridges were simultaneously catalogued loaded with Black Powder, "Lesmok" Powder, and Smokeless Powder.

It was in 1911 that rimfire cartridges were also first available. After 1916 the rimfires continued to be available, but only in .22 caliber. I don't have all the catalogs after 1920, but the 1932 edition still carries "Lesmok" .22 Long Rifle cartridges, while 1938 is silent.

For those who do not know, "Lesmok" was a blend of Smokeless and Black Powder intended to give less fouling than B.P., while maintaining somewhat lower pressures at standard velocities compared to Smokeless. Available cartridges were priced the same as those loaded with B.P.

Duplex Loading the .44-40
by Shasta » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:12 pm

I am considering testing .44-40 caliber duplex loads of Fg, FFg, FFFg using a 10% IMR 4759 priming charge in my 1873 rifles, the purpose being to reduce black powder fouling during 15 shot silhouette relays. One rifle is an original Winchester from 1880, the other a Uberti reproduction.

My attempts at internet searching the subject seem to veer off to the .45-70 caliber, which I have duplexed in the past with very good results. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, as it were, so was wondering if anyone here on the Leverguns forum, (I'm especially thinking of the esteemed and highly experienced .44-40 expert Mr. John Kort) might have already done this and could share their experiences?

SHASTA

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by w30wcf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:12 am

Shasta,

While I partially agree with the pards, I have run some duplex cartridges through my original '73 (1882) with no issues.

That was about 10 years ago and my reason for doing so was that the barrel which is far from perfect, would foul quickly and accuracy would go out of the window in short order.

Lyman had published some data including pressure in their Cast Bullet Handbook on duplex loads in the 45-70. Interestingly with a 322 gr bullet, the pressure between 70 / of Goex FFG and a 63 Goex FFG / 7 grs 4759 was pretty much identical (14,700 vs 14,900). With a 400 gr bullet the same loads produced 16,400 & 18,700 respectively.

Based on that....since the 44-40 has a lighter bullet and charge my feeling that a duplex of 4/4759 under 30 / Goex FFG Should be plenty safe. I decided on the lesser charge of 30 grs instead of 36 grs because I reasoned that since 16 grs of 4759 = the velocity of 40 grs of FFG then 1 gr. of 4759 was ballistically = to 2.5 grs of b.p. Therefore, 4 grs of 4759 was = to 10 grs of black. Thus 40-10= 30 grs b.p. + 4 grs. 4759.

Anyway, it worked well and I could shoot many rounds without the lest than perfect barrel fouling out.

HOWEVER, If I were to do it today in my vintage '73, I would use RL7 instead of 4759. The reason being is that a capacity load of RL7 has been tested by Hercules Powder (now Alliant) in the .44-40 and generated pressures well within the SAAMI MAP for the .44-40 and that was with a heavier 240 gr bullet. So....technically one could use any amount of RL7 and fill the rest of the capacity with b.p. and not exceed b.p. pressures.

I have since found that better b.p.'s like Swiss and lately Olde Enysford work much better than Goex to keep things running well for many rounds (100+ using the standard 2 groove bullet) in a smooth barrel. In the vintage '73 with the less than perfect barrel, the additional lube of the Accurate 43-215C in combination with the less fouling properties of those two powders will allow that rifle to shoot accurately for many rounds.

w30wcf

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by Shasta » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:17 am

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.

Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.

My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.

I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.

SHASTA

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by w30wcf » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:55 am

Shasta wrote:

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.

Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.

My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.

I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.

SHASTA

Howdy Shasta,

I am sure that if you try Swiss or Olde Enysford you will definitely see a difference as compared to standard Goex.

In my '73 with it's somewhat rough barrel using the standard 2 lube groove bullet (427098) lubed with SPG ...

Goex FFG - group started opening up by the 7th shot and by the 10th shot the bullets were starting to partially keyhole

Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for about 18 shots then the group started to open up

Bullet: Accurate 43-215C

Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for 30 rounds (most tried at 1 time)

By comparison in the smooth barrel on my Marlin Cowboy 44-40 .....

427098 / Goex FFG - groups start to open after a dozen rounds

43-215C / Goex FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)

427098 / Swiss FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)

recent testing with Olde Enysford gave results similar to Swiss.

w30wcf

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by Shasta » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:40 am

w30wcf wrote:

Shasta,

I was wondering if you ever tried a duplex loading and if so, what the results were.

w30wcf


John,

Thanks for asking, and yes, I did do some duplex load testing shortly after posting this thread about a year ago. Despite all the dire warnings of some, I and both my rifles survived. I did not report on my activities as I got the feeling that most here did not think it wise to be messing with duplexing.

The loads I tested in both rifles consisted of an approximately 210 gr. Accurate Molds 433205C bullet over 4.0 grains of Reloder 7 topped by 30.0 grains by weight of some old G.O.I. FFg with a single milk carton wad under the bullet. Gearhart Owens Industries (GOI) was a predecessor of Goex that went out of business back in the early eighties, but I have a whole keg of it that I need to use up.

I shoot my five shot groups at 50 yards because that works well with my sheet paper size targets. Much further and the front bead covers the entire paper. Velocities measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph were not much different than straight black, with my original Winchester 28" averaging 1,203 fps and the Navy Arms replica 24" averaging 1,198 fps.

I tried both smokeless lube (White Label BAC) and my homemade Paul Matthews formula black power lube (beeswax, Neatsfoot Oil, Neutrogena Facial Soap). The smokeless lube caused hard fouling, while the BP lube kept fouling moist and soft. I compared Federal Large Pistol Magnum and Standard primers. The standard seemed to do the best. All the duplex loads tended to leave some granules of smokeless powder residue in the bore, but the black powder fouling was definitely much less, and for some reason had a lighter color.

Most groups were nothing to brag on, running upwards of 3 inches, but I did get several in the range of one and a half to two inches, which was pretty good for my eyes and iron sights. (I have since had cataract surgery and can see better now). Both rifles performed nearly identically.

I really should do some more work on this, but many other interests intervene. I also discovered that Olde Eynsford black powder burns moist with much less fouling than regular Goex in the old Winchester, and I need to test that some more too. Might save the trouble of duplexing.

Shasta,

Thank you for the report. Glad to see that you had some success. Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!

One thing that most folks don't realize is that the early Semi-Smokeless powder (King's) contained 20% of smokeless in its formulation which also included the other components of b.p. It was said that it produced velocities of up to 10% greater than straight b.p. and the pressures had been recorded as being the same as b.p. It was for use in all b.p. rifles / cartridges and was to be loaded just like b.p.

I have had the opportunity to test some vintage PETERS Semi-Smokeless 44-40 cartridges and they indeed produced velocities of 1,430 f.p.s. avg. which is almost spot on to the 10% improvement claim. Lesmok was the DuPont version of Semi-Smokeless powder.

That being said, late last year I tested up to 20% by weight of RL7 under the b.p. charge. At this point I would like to remind the reader that a capacity load of RL-7 was tested by Hercules under a heavier 240 gr bullet and it produced pressures that were 10% under SAMMI MAP for the .44-40. That means that any amount of RL-7 under a b.p. charge is plenty safe. DO NOT SUSTITUTE ANY OTHER POWDER!!

A combination of 20% RL-7 and Goex FFG produced 1,316 f.p.s. average in a 24" barrel. Accuracy was very good.


Shasta,

I can't recall what the groove diameters of your rifles are and the diameter of the bullet you are using and the alloy(?).

I am thinking that a .06" thick poly disc under the bullet just might improve accuracy since it would act as a gas check,

helping keep the gas behind the bullet as it transverses the bore.

I recently underwent cataract surgery as well. Much improvement as you said with being able to see the sights much better!

Sadly, I read that Paul Matthews had passed on in 2015.

w30wcf

Reloder 7 is one of my favorite powders. My standard smokeless .44-40 load uses 25.0 grains Reloder 7 with a large pistol primer and the 210 grain Accurate 433205C bullet. Velocity is right at 1,405 fps.

For those who may be interested in reading or re-reading more about my experiences loading for and shooting my 1880 vintage Winchester, here is a link to an old thread from 2012:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40797

Shasta

Read all the replies here: https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62144

[GregLaROCHE]

Does using duplex loads reduce the smoke cloud?

[Larry Gibson]

Not that I can tell, still using 54 gr BP in my 1873 replicant 45-70s.

[indian joe]

The cable I use is plastic coated and the threaded parts are brass. I can’t see how it could damage the muzzle. I like the idea of a squirt bottle from the receiver side. I never thought of doing that. You still have to push the patch from the muzzle end. Doesn’t that push anything into the receiver?

Greg
1) cleaning rods - I live in redsoil country, there is always ultra fine red dust and it is super abrasive, no way to prevent some contamination on plastic rods or anything like that. I never use anything in the bore without a muzzle protector to prevent contact - it you live in clean country maybe its not a worry ?
2) gunk in the receiver - gun is upside down in a cradle - loose patch drops out as soon as it clears the chamber - or use a soft bristle brush - just one pass to disturb the softened fouling then the next flush clears it out the muzzle - usually the third patch is clean, one more flush to be sure and patch it dry (double patches for that) then WD40 . cradle and rod, flush bottle, tin of flannelette patches and a gallon of water live in the back of my workshop ready to use - the whole process takes only a couple of minutes.

[GregLaROCHE]

Interesting. Thanks.

[Tar Heel]

I use no larger than 7% 4227. It seems 10% gives no edge on fouling but does place one near the upper pressure limits for a BP cartridge/rifle.

[Wilderness]

About 1960 I was shooting a Winchester 92 .44 carbine with the weak and thin old balloon head cases. The number one problem was bullets pushing into the case in the magazine. Paternal advice was to load with black powder, nicely compressed, and crimp the case over the front of the bullet with the WRACo reloading tool. This did away with case resizing as well. Fouling of the rifle and the cases was annoying, but approached trivial when I went duplex. The recipe of the time (mine) was 2 gns shotgun Ballistite on the primer (9 gns was a full charge) and 30 gns #4 Curtis and Harvey on top of that. There was still some modest compression of the charge. That load shot as well as anything else I used, and with a soft hollow point bullet killed a lot of pigs. Bullet lube was beeswax and mutton fat.

My uncle loaded .44-40 in even older WRACo black powder cases with the small primers. To ensure reliable ignition he put a .22 short case of black powder mixed in with the regular 15 gn charge of Dupont SR80.

Way back, Ideal made a powder thrower with two reservoirs, one for black and one for smokeless. Both throws of the handle produced something. I think it was intended to load smokeless with a priming charge of black.

[Savvy Jack]

301387


6.6gr Reloder 7
25gr Black Powder

Certainly worth further testing, however, this is probably the only load I will get a chance to test. Certainly looks plausible to modify the load to increase the velocity to 1,300fps and remain well below unsafe pressures.

[M-Tecs]

Way back, Ideal made a powder thrower with two reservoirs, one for black and one for smokeless. Both throws of the handle produced something. I think it was intended to load smokeless with a priming charge of black.

In the day they were mostly used the other way around. A small charge of smokeless was used under BP to reduces fouling issues.

https://www.reloadingtool.com/schoyen-powder-measure-page-2

I have both #5 and #6's https://www.reloadingtool.com/ideal-no-6-powder-measures

I just missed getting a Stevens Pope Duplex Powder Measure by about 2 minutes a couple of years ago.

https://www.reloadingtool.com/h-m-pope-powder-measure

https://pbase.com/halp/image/38537067

Some other ones I would like to find https://www.pbase.com/halp/schuetzen_measures

[Noah Zark]

Just found and read this thread;

A) It took me back a bit to my late good friend John in WV who had a Lyman duplex powder measure which was the ticket for the duplex loads he made up.

B) I really miss another John, Mr. Kort. We had some great chats during his one-week camping stays at the Ridgway Rifle Club.

The two Johns never had the opportunity to meet, but they were kindred spirits for sure.

Noah

[Fitz]

I use a load of home-made black powder and 3 grains of red dot under it burns clean and shoots accurate in my 44 mag red hawk and H&R single shot , can shoot a hundred rounds with no issues of fouling in the revolver.

[pworley1]

I like to use duplex loads with wc 872 and 4198. I do not duplex with black powder.

[Wilderness]

I don’t see the point. Why not just shoot smokeless, if you don’t want to deal with fouling. However, when I am shooting BP in my 45/70, I often shoot a smokeless round or two at the end and it makes cleaning a lot easier.

When I was a kid, my pig rifle was a Winchester 92 carbine in .44-40. I used a Winchester reloading tool. This did not resize anything, but did crimp. The load was 15 gns Dupont #80 with 200 gn cast bullet. The load did not fill the case. Even with resizing (I did have a FLS die), the thin cases meant that bullets collapsing back into the case were a regular occurrence. The solution was to use Curtis and Harvey #4 black powder - fill the case up, compress with the bullet, and crimp. Fouling of rifle and cases was of course an issue.

Duplex loads came next, using Sporting Ballistite powder. I think it was actually WWII surplus, hitherto used for rifle grenade launching blanks and possibly mortars. The published load for .44-40 was 9 gns. Loading by proportions, I used 2 gns Ballistite on top of the primer and 30 gns black on top, and still had a degree of compression, sufficient to prevent the bullets pushing in. That was a good load that shot well enough and made a BIG reduction in fouling.

Mission accomplished.

Edit: Oops, I see I had already posted some of this a couple of months ago - the point of revisiting was to answer the question of "why do it?".

[Savvy Jack]

When I was a kid, my pig rifle was a Winchester 92 carbine in .44-40. I used a Winchester reloading tool. This did not resize anything, but did crimp. I also had a FLS die. Even with resizing, the thin cases meant that bullets collapsing back into the case were a regular occurrence. The solution was to use Curtis and Harvey #4 black powder - fill the case up, compress with the bullet, and crimp (information was pretty scant back then and most intergenerational). Fouling of rifle and cases was of course an issue.

Duplex loads came next, using what could be obtained, which was Sporting Ballistite powder. I think it was actually WWII surplus, hitherto used for rifle grenade launching blanks and possibly mortars. The published load for .44-40 was 9 gns. Loading by proportions, I used 2 gns Ballistite on top of the primer and 30 gns black on top, and still had a degree of compression, sufficient to prevent the bullets pushing in. That was a good load that shot well enough and made a BIG reduction in fouling.

Mission accomplished.

Most Excellent Report!!!

[John in PA]

Way back, Ideal made a powder thrower with two reservoirs, one for black and one for smokeless. Both throws of the handle produced something. I think it was intended to load smokeless with a priming charge of black.
Yep. Ideal No. 6 Duplex Powder Measure. They work very well, both chambers are adjustable. Dropping the handle down drops the priming charge, raising the handle briskly drops the bulk charge.
https://www.reloadingtool.com/ideal-no-6-powder-measures

[Milky Duck]

Im putting 5grns of AR2219 under 60 grns of home rolled BP in a .45/70 case under a 405 grn cast.....
its definately cleaner than straight BP and lots less recoil than straight smokeless...normally 45grns of AR2208 .

in process of sorting rifle out properly and getting scope zeroed. thought I WAS DOING ok with open sights,untill missed two deer,then fitted scope and had roughly zeroed with smokeless load...tried my duplex load and all over the show....the only other thing Ive changed is source of cast projectiles...I must get out and try again,shooting small game with a big hunk of lead at minimal cost is just plain good fun. so far Ive managed to hit 8 wallabies and 3 of those have been fluked headshots..... did manage 2 with same round last time out!!!!! made me feel king of the world.

[Milky Duck]

I use a load of home-made black powder and 3 grains of red dot under it burns clean and shoots accurate in my 44 mag red hawk and H&R single shot , can shoot a hundred rounds with no issues of fouling in the revolver.

now this has me thinking...maybe I would be better off to switch out the 2219 for red dot in the 45/70.......hmmmm
I only used the 2219 as couldnt really see another use for it (sort of OK in .223) but Ive got half pottles of both AS30N and AP50N which are red n green dot equivilents......

[Savvy Jack]

It's great to hear these good reports!!

I tested one load last month or so with the pressuretrace. I think it is certainly good enough to test again sometime but I only had time to test this one load.

6.6gr Reloder 7 under 25gr of Goex FFFg Black Powder, 215 LRNFP, Accurate 43-214A, 1,207fps @ 7,621psi or close to 9,008cup. Was a pretty clean burn but I think either Reloder 7 needs to be increased or use a faster burning powder. Plenty of room pressure-wise for change.

302436

[indian joe]

It's great to hear these good reports!!

I tested one load last month or so with the pressuretrace. I think it is certainly good enough to test again sometime but I only had time to test this one load.

6.6gr Reloder 7 under 25gr of Goex FFFg Black Powder, 215 LRNFP, Accurate 43-214A, 1,207fps @ 7,621psi or close to 9,008cup. Was a pretty clean burn but I think either Reloder 7 needs to be increased or use a faster burning powder. Plenty of room pressure-wise for change.

302436

try 5 grains AR2205 (its 4227) should be able to get 30 grains of Goex in as well

[Savvy Jack]

I'll give that a try sometime, I do have plenty of 4227

[Nobade]

4227 and 10B101 (equivalent to blue dot) are my go-to duplex powders any more. Faster gives pressure spikes and slower doesn't do what you want it to do.

[indian joe]

4227 and 10B101 (equivalent to blue dot) are my go-to duplex powders any more. Faster gives pressure spikes and slower doesn't do what you want it to do.

yeah - talk of red dot for the starter scares me - and I have pounds of the stuff on the shelf.

[Milky Duck]

OK...so scrap the idea of red dot/green dot under BP.... thanks fellas.