Better 2 Ball shotgun ??? 870/500/590A1

[warren5421]

I have 50 rounds of 2 round balls with a diameter of .600" that I loaded from what Blood Trail posted and longbow also helped. It works good in my double. I have a chance to hunt hogs in Florida with a friend and need input on what gun to use. I have the use of one of 3 shotguns. A Remington 870, a Mossberg 500, or a Mossberg 590A1 all are 3" chambered, cylinder bore, tactical configured with 18.5" barrels. I would use my double but want more rounds in the gun than 2. I have been looking for a 590A1 but come up a dollar short or a day late. Over the years I have used both a Wingmaster 870 and a Mossberg 500A and like both and have take several birds with them. I shoot both about the same but not as good as the SxS, my SASS shotgun.

[megasupermagnum]

The 590A1 is overrated. All of the 500 series use the exact same frame. You can actually swap barrels and magazines on all of them. The 590 is a different magazine tube that allows 1 extra shell vs the 500 magazine of the same length. The 590A1 is the exact same as the 590, but with a thick walled barrel, metal safety, and metal trigger guard. You can put a metal safety, better than the A1's, on any Mossberg pump action, and they are cheap. The metal trigger guard isn't worth much, I've yet to break one on any gun of mine. The thick walled barrel is a huge downgrade. It's purpose, so I'm told, is to prevent dents during military use, specifically Navy ships. It also possibly keeps heat down during rapid fire. What it really does is add a pound of weight to the front end, and with a full magazine is not a good handling or balanced shotgun.

The standard 590 has a standard thickness barrel, which makes a huge difference. After handling and shooting both, I never even had to think about it. I bought a standard 590 with 20" barrel, two of them actually. One I use as intended. The other I frankensteined into a Mossberg kit as a 590/500 cross. It currently sits as my duck gun with a 500 magazine tube and 30" full choke barrel. I also have a 500, as well as a selection of barrels, including an 18 1/2".

If you like the 500, you will like the 590, they are the same thing. The one issue I've found is that both the 18 1/2" and 20" barrels on both models shoot high from the small factory bead. My solution is to replace with a taller bead. Not everyone has this issue.

The other issue is that very few 18 1/2" and 20" barrels have any choke, or are threaded for tubes. One model of the 590 does, but none of the 590A1's do. The 500 18 1/2" barrel is not either. You can send your barrel to Mike Orlen, and he will thread them for a very reasonable price, I think $60 or something like that. I had both my 590 barrels done. The other option is to go with the 500 turkey model with 20" barrel. It has a vent rib, and shoots right to a bead. It comes with sights, but you can take them off easy enough. It is threaded for tubes.

[LIMPINGJ]

This is not from a shotgun guy. I would take your SxS if you shoot it the best. If where you will hunt in FL is thick like E TX the shots will be close and you’ll only get one shot and you still have your second round if you need a finishing shot. Pig aren’t hard to kill if you pick your shot and hit them in the right spot. The last several years all I have shot have been with my 222Mag or 223. The last one I shot this Spring was with a 22lr. Hope you a fun and successful hunt.

[longbow]

I've always had a soft spot for side by's! That would be my pick. Nothing to operate except the safety ( or cock hammers), nothing to jam, just aim and pull the trigger... twice if needed.

Longbow

[centershot]

I love my SxS, but, given the hostile nature of the quarry, I'd take my M500 with a 20" barrel. It's a full pound+ lighter than my 870 and since acquiring it a couple years ago, has replaced the 870 in the hunting armory.

[warren5421]

centershot your thoughts are my thoughts about the SxS. My two favorite ones are a STEVENS Model 311 with 28" barrels and a STEVENS 235 with rabbit ears and 28" barrels. I can reload fast but not near as fast as the pump. I do have a Winchester 97 cut to 18 1/2" but didn't want to use as it is set up for SASS and light black powder loads.

[RMc]

Given the OP's quest for tight hunting patterns with 22 gauge buckshot in the 12 bore, the most important recommendation that can be made is:

Use a shotgun threaded for choke tubes!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd chose the one with Rifle Sights. If you are shooting pigs with a shotgun with Slugs or Balls you are actually shooting a .73 Caliber Rifle.

I have two M500's (18" and 20") and an A5

All my Tactical Shotguns have Rifle Sights. They just point better and even if you are making running shots they still work better as long as you can keep focused on the Front Sight. Two of mine have Green FO Front Sights and in the sunlight they are impossible to miss.

Your 590A1 has a Front Sight with a big Orange strip on it and a Ghost Ring. Since you automatically look thru the Ghost Ring all you do is put the Front Sight on the target and let fly. You can obviously do that with a Bead also but when it comes to longer shots the Sights are a better option. And Since you are hunting Pigs you never know what shot you will get.

That's what I'd do. That Said, I'd probably want to take my A5 cuz it shoot best of all.

Randy

[warren5421]

All 3 have Ghost Ring sights, stocks are adjustable like an AR15. The 2 guys that own them shoot slugs and buck shot. The 500 and 870 have taken several deer over the years but the 590A1 was new in 2020 and not been out for deer yet.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You have to understand that the Magpul stocks and enlarged Recoil Pads on my M500's do take alot of the bite out of shooting Slugs. The barrels are also "Vang Comped." and that changes the Recoil Impulse greatly.
www.vangcomp.com

However I only shoot Low Recoil slugs or slugs that I have loaded, and I only load slugs towards the low end because I don't see the point in loading them hot to shoot a 500 gr slug 50 yards. The target won't know the difference if it gets hit by a Slug traveling 1200 fps or 1600 fps. But you damn sure will when you fire it!.

Since your guns are probably not modified in the same manner as mine are ,you'd probably be better off shooting the 590A1 as it is a heavier gun.

Hope this helps.

Randy

[warren5421]

I said I would use the 590A1. Now just waiting for it to happen.

[Blood Trail]

I said I would use the 590A1. Now just waiting for it to happen.

I’m a big fan of the 590A1. I think it’s the way tactical pump ever made. Now, I’m a tad bias being I’m a Marine.

With that being said, I had my barrel on my A1 threaded for Remington chokes. I like options. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210413/970cd4541d6b31eb3b6de173f69a61a2.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210413/1b7de457f4807299d6faffd480e42936.jpg


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[warren5421]

Like the walnut. I spent 7 years in the Navy Dec 1967-Feb 1975

[LeonCarr]

The 870s went to the back of the safe after I shot the Benelli Novas and Supernovas.

I personally don't care for Mossberg shotguns.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Markopolo]

where are you guys sending barrels to get threaded?

[Hogtamer]

Carlson did a good job for me.

[megasupermagnum]

where are you guys sending barrels to get threaded?

Mike Orlen will do it for $65. 413-256-1630

[megasupermagnum]

The 870s went to the back of the safe after I shot the Benelli Novas and Supernovas.

I personally don't care for Mossberg shotguns.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

A Benelli Nova was my main duck gun for about 15 years. Even after all that time, I finally had to admit that the Mossberg 500 is a better shotgun. I still keep my Nova with me for a backup, it has never failed me, but my main waterfowl guns are now a Mossberg 500 and an Ithaca Mag 10.

[Blood Trail]

A Benelli Nova was my main duck gun for about 15 years. Even after all that time, I finally had to admit that the Mossberg 500 is a better shotgun. I still keep my Nova with me for a backup, it has never failed me, but my main waterfowl guns are now a Mossberg 500 and an Ithaca Mag 10.

Never had a problem with Mossberg’s, either. To me, the 590A1 is the best combat shotgun ever made. Good enough for Marines (and we put them through hell), good enough for me now.

I own 6 moss bergs and never had a problem with any.


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[Blood Trail]

where are you guys sending barrels to get threaded?

Gunsmith in my Facebook group did it. $75 is what he charged me.


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[Hogtamer]

Get your hands on an older Wingmaster 870.

[Hogtamer]

Hey BT, an old marine buddy of mine of the Nam era told me, “an 870 with 00s is the best 40 meter warfare weapon ever made.” I’d love to see you two have that argument!!! He can still shoot too! BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever told you but I appreciate your service to our country.

[Blood Trail]

Hey BT, an old marine buddy of mine of the Nam era told me, “an 870 with 00s is the best 40 meter warfare weapon ever made.” I’d love to see you two have that argument!!! He can still shoot too! BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever told you but I appreciate your service to our country.

I don’t disagree. The old 870’s are golden. Anything made since the 1990’s is suspect.

And thank you, brother. I’d do it all over again.


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[warren5421]

I just stumbled into a '86 made 870 Police Magnum so it will be my hog gun if the hunt works. 18" barrel 3" magnum, rifle sights, carried alot but shot very little. Getting the right components to load the double round ball has been hard. I have .620" balls, over powder wad but finding new hulls is hard.

[WestKentucky]

The double will be fastest for 2 shots.

[longbow]

"The double will be fastest for 2 shots."

My thought exactly!

Double rifles were and are carried for large dangerous game for that reason... for normal "charging animal" defense the distances are usually close so not much time to react. A double has two loaded chambers and two trigger pulls... nothing to operate or think about except the safety or cocking hammers then Bang! Bang! Most likely if you needed a third Bang! you wouldn't have time anyway.

Having said that I bought a used Mossberg Slugster for my bear defense gun but am still leaning towards a double barrel 12 ga. for bear defense and preferably a side by just because I like side by's but an over/under would be just as effective.

Different strokes.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kent: You know that little book I sent you? If you go to the Test near the back you will see the times that you are expected to be able to complete the tasks in. I can do every one everytime with a pump gun except the 4 targets in 2.7 seconds. I'm usually there right at 3.0 seconds. This took some practice but it is doable.

The key to all of it is "Riding the Recoil". If you have taken your trigger group out of your M500 you have seen that the only thing actually holding the action in battery is the little Slide Release Lever. Obvious the Locking Lug in the bolt mating to the cutout in the barrel shroud is what takes the recoil, but as soon as the hammer drops that lever is pushed down and the slide is free to move.

By having a small amount of rearward pressure on the fore end, as soon as the shot breaks the slide starts to move backwards and the recoil assists it in moving all the way to the back stop, then you close it on a new round. This is called "Riding the Recoil."

After a few hundred iterations this becomes second nature. This is also a learned function, and I have learned it over the last 2 years. I wasn't born knowing how to do this !!!

I shot skeet with my M37 a couple of years ago and after firing the first shot I just watched the second bird fly by and couldn't do much about it because I hadn't racked the slide. This was frustrating, because at the time, I really didn't know how to run a pump gun.

After several Shotgun Classes to Front Sight, I do know how to run a pump gun, and guess what? I had no problems with doubles on the Skeet field last week with the M37. In fact I shot 15/25 on the first round and 20/25 on the second. This is after no Skeet for 2 years ! after I get my Leads and Proper Sight Pictures back in place, I'll be in the low 20's every round. the gun is a joy to shoot.

I will tell you that this is now a rote function with me and I don't even think about it. It just happens and if Mr. Bear was charging, he would get more than one round of 00 in his face in less than 2 seconds. Rifle sights do help.

As far as Mossbergs Versus 870's the relevant point has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Some 870's were made better than others. All the M500's appear to be pretty much the same.

However the M500 platform has several advantages over the 870 in a Combat Shotgun.

The M500 is easier to single load thru the Ejection Port, because it is bigger than the 870 Port. Also the 870 has a bump on the lifter that gets in the way if the slide is moved forward even a small amount. The lifter pops up and blocks the port and you can't get anything past it. I am told that the reason for this is if you are laying on your side under a car and you rack the gun that little bump on the lifter prevents the new round from dropping out on the ground. The M500 will dump the round, but then how often do you lay on your side under a car?

Hans Vang, who is THE Police 870 guru eliminates that bump on the lifter and that fixes that problem.

You say, so what? Why does this matter? Well, if you run the gun dry you can Port Load it and keep returning fire until you get to cover and are able to reload the magazine. Much better than standing out in the open and being shot at. This is kind of a necessary skill to have in a time of need, and the M500 platform just makes it easier to accomplish.

The M500 has Dual Extractors which grab the rim of the case better than a single one does, IE: more reliable extraction. If it does leave the round it is more likely to pick it up the second time. Also if the round sticks in the chamber the dual extractors are better at removing the offending round when you butt stroke the gun.

I have watched both brands in action in the various classes I've been to (6 now) and the Mossbergs just run better. As far as Combat Shotguns go they are superior to everything else out there, and that is probably why the US Military buys them now.

One other thing that has benefitted my Shotgunning has been having my M500 Barrels Vang Comped. This consists of lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3", Back Boring the barrel to .745 and then the last 2" tapers back down to .730, adn then the 62 holes for porting that reduce Muzzle Rise.. Both my guns pattern 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. This makes Buckshot a viable round out to 50 yards which could come in handy. the System works and that's all I can say about it. Well worth the $ if you are serious about your Combat Shotgun.

Rifle Sights? Yes Rifle Sights on a Combat Shotgun are a must. You are mostly using Buckshot or Slugs. It is a .73 Caliber Rifle and you need Rifle Sights to aim it properly.

One other thing that has made a remarkable difference to my guns and recoil management, is the Magpul Furniture. It is very well designed and enhances the handling of the guns dramatically. It also makes doing things like Port Loading much faster.

Needless to say I concur with Leon about Mossbergs !!!

Randy

[Blood Trail]

Kent: You know that little book I sent you? If you go to the Test near the back you will see the times that you are expected to be able to complete the tasks in. I can do every one everytime with a pump gun except the 4 targets in 2.7 seconds. I'm usually there right at 3.0 seconds. This took some practice but it is doable.

The key to all of it is "Riding the Recoil". If you have taken your trigger group out of your M500 you have seen that the only thing actually holding the action in battery is the little Slide Release Lever. Obvious the Locking Lug in the bolt mating to the cutout in the barrel shroud is what takes the recoil, but as soon as the hammer drops that lever is pushed down and the slide is free to move.

By having a small amount of rearward pressure on the fore end, as soon as the shot breaks the slide starts to move backwards and the recoil assists it in moving all the way to the back stop, then you close it on a new round. This is called "Riding the Recoil."

After a few hundred iterations this becomes second nature. This is also a learned function, and I have learned it over the last 2 years. I wasn't born knowing how to do this !!!

I shot skeet with my M37 a couple of years ago and after firing the first shot I just watched the second bird fly by and couldn't do much about it because I hadn't racked the slide. This was frustrating, because at the time, I really didn't know how to run a pump gun.

After several Shotgun Classes to Front Sight, I do know how to run a pump gun, and guess what? I had no problems with doubles on the Skeet field last week with the M37. In fact I shot 15/25 on the first round and 20/25 on the second. This is after no Skeet for 2 years ! after I get my Leads and Proper Sight Pictures back in place, I'll be in the low 20's every round. the gun is a joy to shoot.

I will tell you that this is now a rote function with me and I don't even think about it. It just happens and if Mr. Bear was charging, he would get more than one round of 00 in his face in less than 2 seconds. Rifle sights do help.

As far as Mossbergs Versus 870's the relevant point has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Some 870's were made better than others. All the M500's appear to be pretty much the same.

However the M500 platform has several advantages over the 870 in a Combat Shotgun.

The M500 is easier to single load thru the Ejection Port, because it is bigger than the 870 Port. Also the 870 has a bump on the lifter that gets in the way if the slide is moved forward even a small amount. The lifter pops up and blocks the port and you can't get anything past it. I am told that the reason for this is if you are laying on your side under a car and you rack the gun that little bump on the lifter prevents the new round from dropping out on the ground. The M500 will dump the round, but then how often do you lay on your side under a car?

Hans Vang, who is THE Police 870 guru eliminates that bump on the lifter and that fixes that problem.

You say, so what? Why does this matter? Well, if you run the gun dry you can Port Load it and keep returning fire until you get to cover and are able to reload the magazine. Much better than standing out in the open and being shot at. This is kind of a necessary skill to have in a time of need, and the M500 platform just makes it easier to accomplish.

The M500 has Dual Extractors which grab the rim of the case better than a single one does, IE: more reliable extraction. If it does leave the round it is more likely to pick it up the second time. Also if the round sticks in the chamber the dual extractors are better at removing the offending round when you butt stroke the gun.

I have watched both brands in action in the various classes I've been to (6 now) and the Mossbergs just run better. As far as Combat Shotguns go they are superior to everything else out there, and that is probably why the US Military buys them now.

One other thing that has benefitted my Shotgunning has been having my M500 Barrels Vang Comped. This consists of lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3", Back Boring the barrel to .745 and then the last 2" tapers back down to .730, adn then the 62 holes for porting that reduce Muzzle Rise.. Both my guns pattern 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. This makes Buckshot a viable round out to 50 yards which could come in handy. the System works and that's all I can say about it. Well worth the $ if you are serious about your Combat Shotgun.

Rifle Sights? Yes Rifle Sights on a Combat Shotgun are a must. You are mostly using Buckshot or Slugs. It is a .73 Caliber Rifle and you need Rifle Sights to aim it properly.

One other thing that has made a remarkable difference to my guns and recoil management, is the Magpul Furniture. It is very well designed and enhances the handling of the guns dramatically. It also makes doing things like Port Loading much faster.

Needless to say I concur with Leon about Mossbergs !!!

Randy

Man, that’s a sweet ride. [emoji1474]


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[longbow]

No argument Randy. I find that my Mossberg is very smooth and operates very easily. I think I mentioned that I was shooting it off my becn top cross stick rest I made when I first got it and it was "auto reloading"! It took me a few shots to realize that the recoil was rocking me backwards and on the rebound the slide was being operated and chambering another round! The action is that smooth.

I also find it pretty much impossible to short stroke. My only other pump gun is my Browning BPS and I have to think about operating it and consciously pull back hard on the slide or I will eject the spent round then close the action without feeding a fresh round into the chamber... it takes effort and a seemingly long pull on the slide... to me anyway. A short stroke would be a bad thing in any defense situation needless to say!

Not sure if other pump guns have that same issue as with my BPS... Ithaca pumps maybe since they are also bottom eject? I'll have to check my son's 870 as I can't say I have noticed anything with that. However, I can say the Mossberg 500 is slick and easy to operate. I am glad I listened to you!

I am embarrassed to say that have only scanned through the book you sent and read part in detail but not gone through the exercises. I should have been doing that during COVID restrictions but wound up doing a bunch of other things and haven't had the guns out in way too long. I will get back to that shortly and do the exercises.

My point on the double is simply that they are simple and reliable and nothing to operate except a safety and trigger... no pump, no chance of jamming, no chance of short stroking, less parts for anything to break, jam or malfunction in any way. Push the safety off and you have two fast shots.

As you have noted before, most people (myself included) probably do not and cannot operate a defensive shotgun, or other firearm, efficiently and dependably under stress so the simpler everything is the better in my opinion.

You are right in that practice and muscle memory are the keys to being able to do what you can do in operating your pump gun fast and accurately. Most of us are not so good! Many might think so but I am betting with the training and practice you have had you would beat most of them (me too) every time. Not trying to butter you up, just stating what I think is true.

Personally I think if a bear was charging and within 50 yards I would have a hard time getting off more than two rounds in a pump gun. A charging bear can cover 50 yards in 3 seconds. On a good day you might get 4 shots off if you were already prepared for the charge.

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kent: Just study the book, and do some of the exercises. It isn't that hard and just requires some practice.

The way you hold the shell in your hand for loading is a key point. Learn that by keeping a round with you in your pocket and everytime you're standing around idle play with the shell. Pretty soon it will be second nature and you'll always grab a shell like that automatically.

Most all of the Manual of Arms techniques revolve around Economy of Motion.

Randy

[Cap'n Morgan]

By having a small amount of rearward pressure on the fore end, as soon as the shot breaks the slide starts to move backwards and the recoil assists it in moving all the way to the back stop, then you close it on a new round. This is called "Riding the Recoil."

This feature is a MUST on a pumpgun! Since we're only allowed two shells in a shotgun over here, pumps are not very common - perhaps one for every ten semi-autos (which, again, is one for every twenty doubles). Still, I have owned a handful and one them was an old Stevens if I recall correctly. If you fired the gun with any rearward pull on the forend, the gun would not cycle. You had to deliberately push forward with your left hand for the slide to unlock. I got rid of the gun fast!

Just to brag: I've shot several 25 straights in international skeet using a Remington 870. Plenty of time to cycle while going after that second bird.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Capt: The thing that happens is people tend to "Follow Thru" after firing the first round and just watch the second bird fly by, After all my Training I don't do that any more.

And,,, that 1940 Ithaca is the slickest running pump gun I have ever touched. Made in 1940 and well broken in. Also nicely Refurbished and Reblued by Ithaca a couple of years ago. A friend did the wood , which I had since 1976 but never got around to, It was bought from Fajen who is now out of business. It was a full tight pistol grip and I wanted English Style so it got cut down to the new style.

Randy

[Jedman]

I really like shooting large lead balls out of shotguns. I have shot large hogs with 12, 18, and 24 ga. shotguns with near bore size single balls and one hog with a 410 with a 3 ball .400 dia. load.
I personally would use which ever shotgun you own that is the most accurate, handy and suits the hunting style the best. I have many SXS and O/U shotguns and with a 2 ball load like you were mentioning would be my choice.

Jedman

[ackleyman]

Recoil matters. I went Beretta 391 and 390....they never jam...ever. I shoot some really stout buckshot loads, coyotes, hogs, and deer.

Make mine, Gas operated...they hurt a lot less.

[megasupermagnum]

Recoil matters. I went Beretta 391 and 390....they never jam...ever. I shoot some really stout buckshot loads, coyotes, hogs, and deer.

Make mine, Gas operated...they hurt a lot less.

I hope they are better than the 302. I don't think I ever saw a more maintenance intensive shotgun. You practically had to clean the action every time you shot it if you wanted it to be reliable.