Trouble Powder Coating Help

[highmountaincaster]

Hey fellas, so I tried PC my first batch of 9mm and 38spl bullets yesterday. I can say I was not please at all with the results. My method is as follows, I use Eastwood Ford light blue pc is a #5 container. I add the bullets and shake them for a few minutes until the bullets are covered. Then screen to remove access powder and pre-heat the oven to 275 degrees and bake for 15 minutes. While the bullets came out looking OK the real trouble came when I went to size them. Sizing the 9mm bullets using a lee push through sizing die it removed the PC from the driving bands. This also happened to the 38spl bullets aswell. Tried the smash test and the PC flaked off in spots. The 9mm drop at .357 and the 38spl drop at .359. My sizing dies for the 9mm is .356 and .358 for the 38spl. The 38spl mics at .362-.363 with PC applied, I didn’t measure the 9mm before I put them they the die. Can anyone find a fault in my process? I’m going to have to remelt all the boolits and recast to try again. I did add alittle lee sizing lube in a container an swished the boolits around for a bit and it did help some but I am still not satisfied with the results.

[rfd]

Interesting. Were your bullets Very clean before coating?

I'm a PC newbie and have only coated big .45-70 30:1 and 20:1 cast bullets with Eastwood Ford Light Blue, standing them base down on either anti-stick foil or silicone sheets. These bullets all dropped at .459" and I resized after coating with a Lee .457" die that I resized to .459" - the sizing went perfectly as did the smash test. The bullets were clean before coating and the Lee sizing die was free of any lube. Oven preheated to 400*F for less than ten minutes, then the cookies went in for 20 min @ 400*F. I've even sized bullets before coating, and sized again after coating, with no issues at all. In a few weeks I'll be coating for 9mm, and also using the Lee .356 sizing die.

[charlie b]

If you did only get up to 275degF then that is your problem.

Eastwood says to heat to 450F until the PC is 'glossy' then bake at 400F for 20 min.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[DHDeal]

"and pre-heat the oven to 275 degrees and bake for 15 minutes" may be your problem.

I always get my oven up to 400° (stabilized at 400° that is) and bake for 30 minutes. The 30 minutes works out to be PC melted on the surface and then 20 minutes for them to cure. I will spray some Hornady OneShot on the bullets before I size as that helps them slide right on through. Edited to clarify to the OP that the OneShot is sprayed on after the PC'd bullets have cured and cooled.

It doesn't sound as if your PC cured as it wiped off running through the sizer.

[highmountaincaster]

I wasn’t sure off a cook time for them as I heard sooo many different times. I got my time off a video from Elvis Ammo. My temperature was verified with a good thermometer aswell. My bullets were clean or as clean as I could keep them they did sit for a few days until I was able to powder coat them. I am unsure of what the slump temperature of lead is? What temperature and length of time have you guys found to be best? A few more opinions would be great!!! I just didn’t want to over do it and slump the lead, it is a straight WW alloy.

[rfd]

Yep, sure sounds like not enuf heat and cooking time.

Preheat to 400F for 10 minutes.

Pop the cookies in @ 400F for 20 minutes.

You'll be amazed as I was. :)

https://i.imgur.com/FlVnDIz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3dMW527.jpg

[highmountaincaster]

Will this method work with the “shake and bake” aswell? My toaster oven is a pain to adjust my dial compared to my thermometer is 60-70 degrees different. Also after preheating should I pop them in and let the temp come back up to 400 then start the timer or just start it after putting them in?

[rfd]

All I'm doing is shake 'n' bake ... preheat the oven 400F/10min, coat 'n' shake for about 30 seconds, stand up the coated bullets, cook 400F/20min.

https://i.imgur.com/RAXRlkn.jpg

[bangerjim]

Where did you get that 275F temp? Most, if not ALL powder makers say 400F until the powder turns shiny, usually 10 minutes or so.

Like said several times above............RAISE your oven temp (verified with an oven thermometer!) to 400F. I bake at 400 for at least 10 min and get perfect hard coated boolits every time, whether BBDS or ESPC. The smooth sizing die should NEVER scrape off any PC!!!!!!!! If baked properly. And applied to clean grease-free boolits.

Do NOT put sizing lube in the powder container! That will only make the powder loose it's tiny static and not cling to your boolits.

Keep trying with all the above suggestions. It DOES work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many THOUSANDS of us on here have proved that fact.

banger

[Conditor22]

Not everything is equal in powder coating.

Powder Coating creates a Polymer coating/shell around the cast boolit
.....a) it helps protect the boolit from the barrel
.....b) it works as a lubricant between the boolit and the barrel
.....c) it protects the user (and user's kids) from the lead

Different atmospheric conditions can limit static or dampen the powder.

1) the powder must be kept dry ----I use double zipper bags in the NW where we get a lot of rain, store my powder in a garage with a gas furnace and WH
2) the boolits must be kept clean --- IF I'm not coating the boolits right away I put them in plastic zipper bags --- NEVER QUENCH before PCing!!!
.....a) baking the boolits will take most of the hardness you gain by quenching out of the boolit
.....b) quenching is a good way to contaminate the boolits so the PC won't stick well
.....c) quenching after PCing gives good results
.....d) touching the boolit with oily hands can/will affect the coating --- wear nitrile/plastic gloves or use a clean spoon or ? to move the boolits

https://i.imgur.com/uclR2g1.png

PC can be dried out in an oven KEEP the temperature below 150° F (leaving the container open in an airconditioned room works) IF the PC is lumpy after drying it will quickly become powder again when you start swirl/shaking [I Rarely ever shake the container when PCing -- the containers don't last long when I do and just swirling gives me good results

3) the oven temperature must be checked with an oven thermometer (or 2) and the dial adjusted to where the thermometers read 400°
.....a) the oven temperatures will change with the surrounding air temperature due to location and type of sensor they use
.....b) toaster ovens work but only for smaller loads and have a tendency to have hot spots (some of the boolits can/will melt)
.....c) conventions ovens have been proven best because they have a circulating and the evenly heats all the boolits ---you can safely bake full trays of boolits

4) If the air/atmosphere is really damp you may need to pre-warm the boolits --- I use an oven set at 150° F or you can set a pan of boolits on to of your hot oven
.....a) the boolits must not be hotter than you can comfortably touch with bare hands or you can get PC clumping-- starting to cure

5) not all PC needs BB's/poly pellets to work --- this is a trial and error thing

6) polyester (usually TGIC) PC works best for me, I get better results with higher gloss powders

7) white/light colors generally don't cover well but adding a little of another color usually helps

8) COATING BOOLITS:
.....A) BOWLS
..........1) coating bowls/containers need to be plastic #5 or plastic #2
..........2) larger diameter bowls allow you to swirl/build up static faster thus cool whip bowls do such a good job
..........3) lids: if the bowl doesn't have a screw-on lid make sure you hang onto it or the lid will come open
.....B)STATIC BUILDING MEDIA: Normally cover the bottom of small bowls with 2 layers large bowls with 1 layer
..........1) ASBB (Air Soft BB's) black BB's are proven to work I've found camouflaged BB's that work also. It has to do with the hardness, what the BB's are made out of as to how well they help build static. even nonstatic building BB's will help even out the coating
..........2) Poly pellets normally black or white, haven't found any poly pellets that didn't help
.....C) Boolits:
..........1) use a minimum of 12-15 boolits -- enough to build up static
..........2) maximum no more than 2-3 layers deep in your bowl
.....D) Powder: This will vary on bowl size and number of boolits being coated
..........1)Ziploc Twist 'n Loc, after the BB's are coated, no more than 1 teaspoon per batch see how much PC is left in the bottom of the bowl after coating.
..........2) Cool Whip after the BB's are coated 1-2 teaspoons per batch see how much PC is left in the bottom of the bowl after coating.
..........3) Too much PC will prevent good static build-up
..........4) Too little PC will result in thin/spotty coating --- it's easy to add a little more and swirl a little longer
.....E) blending/mixing different PC is not like dealing with paint, white and black don't always make grey more often you get spotted/splotchy boolits
a) blending/mixing a little good PC with a bad PC often makes the bad PC work
b) blending/mixing multiple PCs can give you amazing results but the results will change with each batch you coat
c) some powders stick faster/better than others, the blend color will be heavier with that color to begin with then taper of when the color is used up in the bowl
.....F) SWIRLING: Screw or hold the lid tight and swirl the bowl holding it flat to verticle and back to flat, continue until all boolit are coated
.....G) preparing coated boolits:
..........1) REMOVE ALL EXCESS POWDER
.................a) Sift PC/boolits/BB's in a colander with something to catch the BB's and powder when they fall through the colander removing all excess PC
........................1) after all the PC/BB's are sifted off pick up the boolits with tweezers or fingers wearing surgical gloves (dipped in pc first to prevent sticking)
.................b) Pick up- dump PC'd boolits in a tray or? pick them up with tweezers, tap the tweezer on the side of a container to remove all excess PC
.....H) preparing to bake: Use a pan lined with non-stick paper/foil/bake mats or screen (1/4 hardware cloth)/wire basket (office supply)
..........a) stand short fat boolits up on their bases using finger or tweezer method
..........b) place taller boolits in silicone ice cube trays or use a metal grid to keep them from falling over
..........c) Dump method dump the sifted boolits in screen (1/4 hardware cloth)/wire basket (office supply) [this doesn't work well with all PC's you can get bad sticking
9) Baking PC the manufacturer states Bake for XX minutes at XXX° AFTER this condition exists
.....a) bake for XX minutes AFTER the boolits have reached XXX°
.....b) bake for XX minutes AFTER the PC starts to flow on the boolits
.....c) PC will look good after it flows and may pass the smash test BUT unless bakes to factory specifications IT IS NOT FULLY CURED
*****I have found that baking the coated boolits in an oven preheated to 400° for 25 minutes meets or exceeds all manufacturers requirements*****

10) Testing PC for adhesion/sticking using a smooth-faced hammer
.....a) flatten the PC'd cool boolit to 1/2 its original height seeing if any PC cracks or flakes off
.....b) hammer the PC'd cool boolit into a cube seeing if any PC cracks or flakes off
.....c) just because the PC passes the hammer test doesn't mean its fully cured, just that it is sticking well

11 SIZING
.....a) PC'd usually boolits size easily; if not, a little spray case lube can be used
.....b) IF PC is scraped off when sizing polish the entrance to your sizing die
..........1) with fine sandpaper made into a cone with the grit on the outside
..........2) with a Dremel tool, a felt boolit shaped polisher and some fine polishing compound --- I like Flitz
.....c)*** I like running a felt polisher in the sizing die for a few seconds to smooth the machine marks and make sizing easier
12 LOADING:
.....a) PC is normally loaded to regular cast boolit loads
.....b) GC usually aren't needed with PC's boolits until you reach 1600 - 2100 fps depending on the gun, powder, and boolit
.....c) PC'd boolits can work with a softer alloy and be pushed faster/harder than regular lubed boolits

***I like using different colored boolits to designate different diameters or powder charges***

[highmountaincaster]

Who that’s a lot of information, thanks! Bangerjim, I got my time off of a YouTube channel called Elvis Ammo, he has done lots of extensive testing and development for PC boolits. I also did not mix lube with the powder coat I stated I put some on after they were already done to help sizing. I have a few rejected from the previous pour I will try. I DID water quench them but they were allowed to sit for a few days before I PC’d them. I have a new lee bottom pour pot that is suppose to be here Friday so it will be a good test run. I been using the 4lb pot and ladle method for 6 years, bout time I upgraded.

[oley55]

I don't think you watched enough of the Elvis Ammo videos. He did do one where he was experimenting with cooking at 275 or something like that for the purpose of not cooking out the previously quenched hardness of the bullets. As I recall he presented it as an option for his viewers to do some similar experiments of their own. I'd say your experiment demonstrated reduced temp and cook time is not a viable option.

[mehavey]

Get a good thermocouple thermometer (https://www.homedepot.com/pep/ThermoPro-Digital-Remote-Wireless-Cooking-Thermometer-with-Timer-TP-07S/314138630?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_HDH-G-HDH-29_29_HOUSEWARES-MULTI-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Kitchen_Tools&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_HDH-G-HDH-29_29_HOUSEWARES-MULTI-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Kitchen_Tools-71700000053156025-58700005102355536-92700060697398274&gclid=CjwKCAjwjbCDBhAwEiwAiudBy_iJ0exmisJhtyljwiN_ 6SeMF71jVNpU7_3JkLZqChdV4WfDGYV86hoCRM4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds).
Don't even try to PC w/o one.

Let oven stabilize before putting bullets in.
Usually takes 10-12 min

400-425 degrees for at least 30 minutes after putting bullets in.
(That accounts for both warmup and bake rem'ts)

Trust me... :popcorn:

[highmountaincaster]

It could be, I watched a lot of his videos. This particular video I just got the numbers and ran with it. Oh well my fault, learned a lesson I guess. I’ll have to look but I’m not sure my oven even gets to 400 degrees. Now I can’t wait till I get a chance to make some more and do it the right way or at least try.

[DHDeal]

Have you tried to put them back in the oven for a second bake. Worst thing that will happen is you spend $1.07 for the electricity and waste 26 minutes. Run them through the sizer with a light coat of lube and see if you're still getting the PC wiping off. You can always drop them back in the pot after the experiment.

You really need to follow at least the PC manufacturers temp settings. It's obvious you weren't trying to reinvent the wheel, just got incorrect information. The color/brand of PC you used is a known product and many use it with fantastic results. Many do try to reinvent that wheel and wonder why a square wheel won't roll....

I cheat and use at least 25% clear with all my colors for a great coat (and I like the translucent shade) and I use the heavy Rubbermaid containers labeled for each color. These containers take any sort of beating I could give them. It's a little more expense and storage space but I'm in to deep with the PC to worry about expense now.

These guys who originally came up with the idea of Shake and Bake sure deserve some serious credit!

[charlie b]

First thing you need to do is get an oven thermometer. Put it in there and set the temp dial. When it is stable mark the dial with the temp on the thermometer. Turn up the dial a bit, repeat. Do this until you have a good range of temps maked on the dial.

For bullet baking use the mfg directions. Eastwood marks the baking instructions on their packages. 450 until it glosses over and then 400 for 20min. It works. Use it.

Don't watch any more videos :)

Preheat. Yes. Preheat to 450. Yes, when you put the bullets in the air temp inside the oven will drop significantly. That's why you watch for the bullets to gloss over. That means the temp is back up to where you need it to finish baking. In my old toaster oven it would take 5min for that to happen. In my newer convection oven it is less than 3min.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[cwlongshot]

Elvis Ammo is a great resource he helps many make this "jump". I like his videos as well as Steves from Fortune Cookie 45 and others.

But much like using reloading powders not listed in manuals some of his videos are more advanced for beginners who do mot understand the and whys.

The bags of powder will Likely tell you what the maker recommends. You would be advised to adhere to these recommendations.

Jim has given you nearly everything you need to know to accomplish this task. Dont be discouraged follow Jims outline above and you will be pleased with results.

Good luck and God Bless

CW

You can ask any of us Questions within the videos too. (I also have a channel)

[highmountaincaster]

I will try again today and see what I come up with, I will report back with the results....

[highmountaincaster]

I keep trying to upload pics but it keeps saying upload file failed? Even though it is the correct file extension is correct?

[highmountaincaster]

280961

[highmountaincaster]

280962

[highmountaincaster]

There is still some places that didn’t pc, I don’t know if these in this condition are acceptable to shoot with out getting leading assuming the bullet is the proper fit to the barrel. I tried to stand them up wearing gloves and dipping my fingers in the pc first however as soon as I touched them it took the pc off. So, I had to retumble them again to coat. Got them to 450 then back off to 400 for 20 mins. They do stick to the screen but they do look alittle better than the ones I did the other day. I will try sizing them later and see what happens.

[highmountaincaster]

280965 They passed the smash test, just wrinkled no flaking. They also went VERY easily thru the sizing die both the 9mm and 38spl. They felt like they barley even touched the sizer however each mics out at .358 and .356. And NO removal of the powder coating at all. 100% improvement from yesterday. Now I just need to figure out how to make them look alittle better with improved coverage. The boolits are also lighter in color than the previous batch and the coating mics 0.003 thinner?

[oley55]

280962

those look good and your smash tests look good as well. your bare spots are no doubt from their sticking to the hardware cloth mesh.

I do wonder about the uncured powder coming off while handling. I usually use nitrite gloves, but occasionally I'll move a few with powdered fingers. I just don't seem to have any problem with the powder coming off while handling to stand them up. Perhaps you are not swirling quite long enough to build up more static cling.

[El Greco]

I have tried the 275F 15 minutes. It’s an absolute disaster. The coating was flaking and I was getting serious leading. Now I go 400 F for 20 minutes with excellent results.

[highmountaincaster]

Yea I couldn’t believe the difference in the results from 275 for 15 vs heating to 450 then backing down to 400 for 20 minutes def improvement. They don’t look to bad just have marks from sticking to the wire basket and also from stick to each other. I have a #5 container and swirled and shook for a few minutes and they looked completely covered. However just by straining the access powder off left a few small bare spots and when I had to break apart the ones that stuck together left marks. I tried to stand them up using gloves dipped into the powder but as soon as I touched them the powder came off and I have to put them back into the container and redo them.

[mehavey]

tried to stand them up using gloves Use a pair of needle-nose pliers

[rfd]

.... I tried to stand them up using gloves dipped into the powder but as soon as I touched them the powder came off and I have to put them back into the container and redo them.

Base down is the way to go for me. Using surgical gloves insures I won't deform or even mar the alloy - I like pristine bullets that are as perfect as I can produce, mainly with the big ones for the .45 rifles. If you left a bare spot from using a glove with too much finger pressure or too little powder on the glove (don't do that!), touch a gloved finger to the powder, then touch that to the bare spot. You'll figure it out, and know what's best for your PCB process. So far, yer looking purty good.

[highmountaincaster]

Thanks I’ll have to post more pics after I make more boolits this weekend

[DHDeal]

I've noticed folks get to the final destination different ways. The OCD's will stand them up in rows looking for a perfect coat (I'm in that group). Some dump on a screen for high volume and report the minute area that stuck to the screen doesn't cause any leading issues. I don't doubt them as they are doing some serious PC numbers.

An OCD trick I do is that I use an aluminum baking sheet that has a cooling rack and I dump the shake and bake bullets with BB's onto the cooling rack. The BB's and excess powder will drop through the rack (the rack has approximate 1/4" grid) and I shake or slide the pan back and forth a few times and the bullets more of less line up. I then pick them up and sit them on the silicone baking mat lined pan for curing. I use bent nose forceps for the picking up and not gloves. I can easily fill another pan up while one pan is in the oven. I did right at 500 32's today and it took about 1.25 hours total.
Just the way I do it and YMMV....

[David2011]

YouTube is a great resource for many things. Maybe CastBoolits is a better resource for PC. Lots of knowledgeable folks here. No matter how accurate the temp is, if it’s too low the powder won’t convert into a solid polymer coating.

Harbor Freight carries some large hemostats that are pretty handy for setting boolits upright when powder coating.

[cwlongshot]

Much better!!!

No those small hickies wont hurt a thing.

Some powders dont like basket baking some dont care. For me I stand up to impress and basket bake for speed/bulk. Eastwood powders REQUIRE standup. Your mileage could vari.

Good luck & God bless

CW

[oley55]

These guys who originally came up with the idea of Shake and Bake sure deserve some serious credit!

Yes they do!!!

[charlie b]

The little spots won't hurt anything.

I stand up my rifle bullets. A pair of angles tweezers (big hardware store type). Slip some plastic tubing over the tips (I use the matte heat shrink tubing). Dip the tips in the powder and swirl a bit to get the plastic covered.

Then pick the bullets up with the tweezers and set on the tray. I find it much easier than using my big fat fingers :)

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[highmountaincaster]

Well my new lead pot is coming today so hopefully I’ll get to make a new batch. I love casting boolits, I had a custom NOE mold made years ago for a WFN 45-70 and did ALOT of experimenting with alloy hardness. I took 3 deer with that bullet style and 2 ran less than 10 yards and 1 was DRT and it wasn’t a central nervous system hit either, it went right behind the shoulder between the ribs and exiting between the 2 opposing ribs. Deer was about 25 yards away, I guess it was just the shock of getting hit with a 437gr WFN moving at 1550fps that did her in.

[cwlongshot]

Yup 100%. Much pride in that!!

CW

[Smoke4320]

Hey fellas, so I tried PC my first batch of 9mm and 38spl bullets yesterday. I can say I was not please at all with the results. My method is as follows, I use Eastwood Ford light blue pc is a #5 container. I add the bullets and shake them for a few minutes until the bullets are covered. Then screen to remove access powder and pre-heat the oven to 275 degrees and bake for 15 minutes. While the bullets came out looking OK the real trouble came when I went to size them. Sizing the 9mm bullets using a lee push through sizing die it removed the PC from the driving bands. This also happened to the 38spl bullets aswell. Tried the smash test and the PC flaked off in spots. The 9mm drop at .357 and the 38spl drop at .359. My sizing dies for the 9mm is .356 and .358 for the 38spl. The 38spl mics at .362-.363 with PC applied, I didn’t measure the 9mm before I put them they the die. Can anyone find a fault in my process? I’m going to have to remelt all the boolits and recast to try again. I did add alittle lee sizing lube in a container an swished the boolits around for a bit and it did help some but I am still not satisfied with the results.

275 is not enough. please forget the internet movies They are wrong .. MFG recommends an actual 400 degrees at 15 minutes . I get a much smoother finish at 400 for 25 to 35 minutes . bigger bullets the longer time .
also check your oven temp with a 2nd tstat . we find 90 + percent of the oven dial or readout to be wrong some as much at 75 degrees

[highmountaincaster]

I actually called EastWood Powder company and they said that they recommended 400 degrees for 20 minutes. I inquired because I’m sure you all know how hard it is to go from 450 to 400 degrees in a toaster oven is at least accurately anyway. Till the oven reaches 400 it’s time to take the boolits out. Mine doesn’t maintain temperature very well and while I was able to use their 450-to 400 successfully it was a lot of screwing around. If you can dial it in to 400 and leave it there it would make life a lot easier.

[cwlongshot]

REMEMBER ITS 400/20 bullets dont start at 400. So you need to add the time it takes to REACH 400 THEN LEAVE FOR TWENTY!! So most say 20min once the powder glosses.

I use lava rocks in the bottom of mine.

Others only buy a convection oven. I just powder coated three batches to ight. https://youtu.be/oAXX_oA6_TE

Good luck

CW

[highmountaincaster]

Yep I started timing then once the powder starts to “flow”. It’s coincidence that you mention a convention oven cause I just was out earlier this afternoon and bought a new on to replace my 8 year old toaster oven. Hopefully these come out nice, I just cast 300 9mm and 38spl so we will find out just how good they come out. Watched your video also, nice looking boolits, I need to find me a HP mold like that one.

[Walks]

What ever way you go,

DO NOT use your oven in direct sunlight during a heat wave.

[highmountaincaster]

281074

[highmountaincaster]

281075 much better!!!!

[highmountaincaster]

281076 The 38spl turned out beautiful aswell... thanks for everyone’s help teaching me how to do this the right way. The help was very much appreciated....

[cwlongshot]

Good JOB!

CW

[oley55]

Looking good!!

Powder Coating, not as nearly rewarding as shooting tiny groups, but still rewarding none the less.

[charlie b]

Looking good!!

Powder Coating, not as nearly rewarding as shooting tiny groups, but still rewarding none the less.

And when you get both it is even better :)

[highmountaincaster]

Yea now I ran an unsure where to crimp these for the 38spl? Being there TL design should I just crimp in the first groove closest to the nose?

[cwlongshot]

Neither is really wrong. Folks do both. Leave it to your gun cause what IT LIKES is more important.

Being a Bullseye shooter for nearly 40 years, I crimp and in the crimp groove. Shooting a S&W52 and a S&W 14.


CW

CW

[charlie b]

I like to crimp revolver bullets in the groove. That is how the roll crimp is designed to work. TL designs just give you more options on where to crimp :)

[highmountaincaster]

281241281242 Both handguns shot these great at 7 yards. The 38spl was cutting shells and the 9mm had about a 2” grouping. Both experienced the occasional flier. Put 50 rounds through both, neither showing and real signs of fouling with the 38spl showing more at outside the forcing cone just into the rifling and the glock showed absolutely no signs of fouling.