Fair distribution of shooting supplies

[Meatball357]

At this time; if you owned a shop selling shooting & reloading supplies, how would you set policy to give all a fair chance at the goods?

Limit quantities? Lottery? Wait list?
Silent auction? Loyalty program? High bid?

[M-Tecs]

Limit quantities is the only "fair" option and the only one that makes long term business sense.

[onelight]

Where I shop they set limits then it is first come first serve seems fair to me. I buy reloading supplies in a different shops than I shoot .
The range where I have a membership will sell you 1 box of ammo yesterday they had 22lR , 9mm, 45acp when you rent or visit with a membership . They sell the ammo based off what they have to pay for it 50 blazer 22lr is 4.85 now and the last time I checked 50 9mm was 22.00 , 45 ball I think 30.00. You can buy a box if you buy a gun also. They did have some 9mm for counter customers that was some kind of strange composite case and non lead bullet subsonic stuff that was 40.00 for 50. All thy had on the retail shelf.

[M-Tecs]

They did have some 9mm for counter customers that was some kind of strange composite case and non lead bullet subsonic stuff that was 40.00 for 50. All thy had on the retail shelf.

https://www.novxammo.com/cartridges/

[trails4u]

I guess I'm a capitalist purist type. mark it up at whatever my standard markup may be and sell it to whomever chooses to buy it. This is 'equal' opportunity. Everyone has an equal chance to buy, but some may not get to capitalize on that chance as someone may beat them to it. Not to be confused with 'equitable' opportunity.....where capitalism is metered in some fashion or another.

Pay attention in the media. 'Equal' is not-so-subtly being replaced with 'Equitable' in many contexts, and they are not the same. Equitable outcomes are a dangerous game for all of us long term, as they inevitably deteriorate to the lowest common denominator. Slightly off-topic, I know....but the principles are the same.

[M-Tecs]

The limit is to prevent people from purchasing to resell at inflated prices.

[onelight]

https://www.novxammo.com/

May be the same brand but this has a red case head a silver case body and a silver bullet that is nearly as long as the case (they had a pulled bullet at the counter)

[Shawlerbrook]

Yes, limit quantities and take care of my regular customers on a preferred list. I would also make it known that I will refuse to sell in the future to any that are caught scalping online.

[tai95]

I think first come first serve is perfectly fine. While there are some people who will buy up anything to try and flip it, most people will leave what they don't need. I've passed up stuff I could use, but I already have a stockpile so I'll leave it for the next guy. Not to mention I refuse to pay $100 for 20 rounds of 338 win mag.

What really gets me is the places that sell memberships to purchase more. Camping world and gander mountain seemed to have merged into gander rv. It's been years since I have went into the store, because of the camping world ceo saying if you were ok with Trump he didn't want your money. So I stopped giving my money to them. the wife and I were out and about and she wanted to stop so I said fine and went in. To my surprise the camping section of the old store was now a sporting section and they had new/used guns and ammo on the shelf. There was a sign on the ammo limit 1 box per person. If you were a member you could buy 3 boxes, if you were an elite member you could buy 6 boxes of ammo. That's a sort of scummy way to make an extra buck in my opinion.

[Bazoo]

I would limit quantity and I would not sell to anyone that was buying to resell. Folks from 50 miles north of here drive down and wait for the stores to open to buy some. I wouldn’t sell to those folks. Folks like me who stop by the store in town when I’m there should have a chance too. The exception is, I’ll make a special trip every day for my 2 boxes (and my wife’s 2 boxes) of 22s until they are gone. I suggested that they just let me buy a brick and be done for the week but they rather I come back daily. Sometimes mom comes too, so that equals more than 2 bricks a week when I find out it’s there.

Capitalism works both ways. The seller has no obligation to sell “first come first serve”. Local shooters who are supporting their own and family needs should come before those that are doing it for profit.

[Tar Heel]

Bear in mind that commercial distribution of goods and services in a free market economy isn't fair. It was never fair. It will never be fair. It is supply and demand. You can afford it or you can't afford it. I would love to have a brand new Ford F150 Extended Cab 4x4. Can't afford it. I would love to have a Purdy shotgun. Can't afford it. As supply drops and demand increases, so do prices at both the retail level and the distribution level. You can't afford to buy 2000 cases of .223? Midway USA can so that's where they go (at higher prices to drive demand down to production levels).

Things will stabilize eventually and then learn from the incident. Keep a few boxes of shells on-hand so you can hunt throughout the year. If you need 2000 cases of .223, outbid MidwayUSA for them and you shall have them.

[Winger Ed.]

The limit is to prevent people from purchasing to resell at inflated prices.

That's where I'm at, and-.
Limited supplies are coming in. If your local guys sells all of it to one person when it first hits the freight dock-
The regulars that also buy other stuff will quit coming in since he never has ammo or whatever at any price.

When I go in to our local guy for powder--- I always come out with a arm load of other stuff I didn't even know I needed.
If I knew he'd never have any powder or primers, there would be no reason to stop in at all.

He's buying all the ammo he can scrounge now days, at about whatever price he can find it, from anybody.
And the selling price on it is higher than giraffe lips compared to last year, and he has purchase limits on that.


Its capitalism,,,,, but its also a rationing process so every body can get some of what is in shortage,
and you don't lose your customer base to some one time purchaser that you'll never see again.

Is it 'fair'? That depends on who you ask:
He'd probably say--- Its fair to him, and helps keep his whole business going.
The flippers, hoarders, and those that spend their entire life looking for something to complain about,
and never think about anyone or anything beside their self---- probably not so much.

[onelight]

They loose nothing by setting limits they are going to sell all they get anyway .
But it makes for better customer service to have something for the next guy. And makes it not worth the trouble for the the guys that want to resale it. And don't even come in when times are normal.

[dtknowles]

They loose nothing by setting limits they are going to sell all they get anyway .
But it makes for better customer service to have something for the next guy. And makes it not worth the trouble for the the guys that want to resale it. And don't even come in when times are normal.

ding, ding, ding. They sell all they get and this way they get more foot traffic and make more people happy. Making the most you can off limited items is not the best what to run your business. Some places even deliberately sell some items at a loss to attract foot traffic that will buy other items.

[farmbif]

prices are up everywhere , so that's a given
but "fair distribution" sounds like some sort of socialist approach compared to bare knuckle capitalism,
first come first served sell all you can get for fair market prices and I don't think your customers will have any disrespect for you.
how many do you think will actually boycott online sellers such as the cheap dirt place because they jacked up the price of 22's to $25/box 50. I know I'll never send them another penny.

[onelight]

I see the limit as a way to offer more people a reason to come to the store . They have holsters range bags cleaning supplies and still have a good selection of guns + a range that offers another product to sell for a lot of people they won't buy range time if they can't buy ammo. Just good business when you have limited supplies of one product that makes everything else in the store sell.
What good is a car if you can't get fuel.

[BigAlofPa.]

My LGS allows one box per caliber you buy.

[trails4u]

Bear in mind that commercial distribution of goods and services in a free market economy isn't fair. It was never fair. It will never be fair. It is supply and demand. You can afford it or you can't afford it. I would love to have a brand new Ford F150 Extended Cab 4x4. Can't afford it. I would love to have a Purdy shotgun. Can't afford it. As supply drops and demand increases, so do prices at both the retail level and the distribution level. You can't afford to buy 2000 cases of .223? Midway USA can so that's where they go (at higher prices to drive demand down to production levels).

Things will stabilize eventually and then learn from the incident. Keep a few boxes of shells on-hand so you can hunt throughout the year. If you need 2000 cases of .223, outbid MidwayUSA for them and you shall have them.

I would argue that supply/demand is absolutely fair......but not equitable. That's my entire argument. When we start to believe that equitable is the right answer, I believe we're in trouble...

Would it be a good business decision to sell all to anyone walking through the door? Maybe..Maybe not?....but the alternative is a modified, semi-controlled market that I can't support the idea of. Don't get me wrong... I hate a scalper as much as anyone, and never suggested I would sell at inflated prices, but when I see people lined up in the dark waiting for doors to open so they can get their 'two' of something it sends shivers down my spine....

[dtknowles]

I would argue that supply/demand is absolutely fair......but not equitable. That's my entire argument. When we start to believe that equitable is the right answer, I believe we're in trouble...

Would it be a good business decision to sell all to anyone walking through the door? Maybe..Maybe not?....but the alternative is a modified, semi-controlled market that I can't support the idea of. Don't get me wrong... I hate a scalper as much as anyone, and never suggested I would sell at inflated prices, but when I see people lined up in the dark waiting for doors to open so they can get their 'two' of something it sends shivers down my spine....

Imagine it was bread and the first guy in line buys all the days bread. Sometimes rationing is the right answer.

[Tar Heel]

Imagine it was bread and the first guy in line buys all the days bread. Sometimes rationing is the right answer.

Hence the WWII rationing program of ESSENTIAL goods. Even that however was victim to the black market. It was however the best we could do to establish even distribution of essential goods to those disgusting greedy, unfair, godless humans.
- Zeus

[DonHowe]

The current situation offers a perfect opportunity to play right into the enemy's hands. The Anti crowd has tried for decades to divide and conquer. They have tried to turn bunny and bird hunters against handgunners, AR owners, you name it. I have posted about the shortages and common sense before (I probably could have made my point better) and got blasted by people boasting how much smarter they are and how much more money they have. Even called me a socialist. That was a first for me!
Make no mistake my friends, the enemy is organized against us. We HAVE to learn to police ourselves, learn to think as a group. We need every gun owner, shooter, reloader to be united, more than ever before. When things are in short supply limit yourself, regardless how much you can afford. Leave some for the next guy. Refuse to pay scalper prices and isolate scalpers. They need to feel heat. If your local dealer needs to raise prices some to help control flow of products be a little understanding and loyal.
And PLEASE stop the panic buying!

I find ebay to be a useful means of observing things. For example, I monitor bullet molds listed on ebay and have long been amazed at how many bidders there are for nearly any mold. It is telling to me that there seems to be as many bidders for 2 cavity Lee molds at 3-4 times what they cost a year ago. If that is YOU and you can't live without it go for it, it's you money but in general I say STOP DOING IT! There are not massive numbers of new casters! This is people like us acting like we are nuts! IT IS NUTS!
We HAVE to police our ranks and look out for each other while there is still a chance.

[charlie b]

I don't see anything wrong with scalping non-essential goods and services. Game tickets, guns, ammo, etc are all non-essential in these days. Yes, I think it is fair as well. Fair market value is a common means of determining the price of something. If there is very high demand and low supply then the price goes up.

Diamonds are a good example of this. They have been a controlled item for more than a century with just a few people metering out the supply in order to demand higher prices. Their marketing makes it even more unethical. Seen the 'new' chocolate diamonds? Those were considered trash until the controllers came up with a marketing strategy.

So, if you have something and the price is higher due to an increase in demand, take advantage of it if you want.

But, there is a downside. If you are s business and you decide to inflate your prices in times like this your customers will remember. When the supply/demand reverses those customers will buy elsewhere.

And, no, I have never "sclaped' anything. I have what I want/need. Frequently if I do not need anything anymore it is given away, donated to a charity or trashed.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[hoodat]

I like to throw a twist into things. How about, "If you want higher quantities, I get a HIGHER margin." jd

[dverna]

If I owned a store, I would limit quantities and also charge a higher markup. Say 1k primers cost me $20 and I usually sell them for $30. I would put the price at $50. That my be considered "scalping" by some...but market prices are at least double that at the moment.

One thing to bear in mind. With supplies way down, a store is not getting the volume they would typically get so their returns are way down. For example using numbers above....

Say they normally sell 100k primers a month for $30...Their profit is $1000
But now, they only have 35k primers to sell....With a $30 margin, their profit is $1050. They are not making a ton of money like most people think.

Their costs for rent, utilities, employees, insurance, taxes etc stay the same. If they do not make money, there will be no LGS. Think about that when you blast stores for "scalping".

[onelight]

I don't know that I consider ammunition to be nonessential .
I find it hard to see the value of the 2nd amendment with out it. And if I lived in one of the multiple locations where riots have taken place in the last year , I would see it as essential in addition to a whole list of other situations that would cause me to see it as essential . And many consider training to be essential .
I guess it's non essential if you are surrounded by a well armed security force paid for with tax dollars .

[lightman]

If I owned a store I probably would ration the stuff involved in the shortage. I might raise the price a little or might not. I would probably keep those items out of sight so that I could control who I sold them to. My goal would be to get these items to those that needed them and to keep them out of the hands of scalpers.

But not being a store owner I am really talking about something that I might be wrong about.

But this should end and return to normal sooner or later. At least it always has. I we could quit paying scalpers prices I think it would return to normal sooner.

[Goofy]

Not clear to me what “fair distribution “ means. It is clear what “essential” means. Because of Obammy’s antics some years ago I need nothing from the marketplace, so you fellas are welcome to whatever you find regardless of price. I have enough lead/primers/brass/flint to outlast my remaining years, be it one or twenty. My collection of lead slingers is much smaller today than last year, but if someone thinks they are entitled to take it they best come prepared.

[bedbugbilly]

My first response would be "to set limits" - but we also need to realize that every pancake has two sides to it. A store is in business to sell their products they carry - keep cash flow going in order to pay their overhead, wages etc. Yes . . . it may seem "fair" to "limit" what a customer buys . . . .

ask yourself this question though . . . let's take bullet molds - what they are selling for is crazy. So let's say "you" . . . Joe Blow . . . have a dozen molds that you have and no longer use . . . you see the opportunity to sell a $20 Lee mold for five times what it normally sells for . . and some have been going for more than that . . . you list them here in the WTS/WTS section at $100 each. ARE YOU going to "limit" the sale of them to "one per member"? After all . . . that wold be the "fair" way to do it . . . or if somebody comes along and wants all 12 that you have to sell . . . are you going to sell them all to that one individual?

Shortages are shortages . . . . they have happened before and will happen again . . . . doesn't make any difference if it is reloading supplies, lumber, hardware, ketchup or toilet paper . . . when toilet paper was short . . . when it was in stock, did you just buy one pack so there could have the opportunity to purchase toilet paper as well?

Like I said . . every pancake has two sides and unfortunately, people are human and greed sometimes sets in.

[mdi]

I guess I'm a capitalist purist type. mark it up at whatever my standard markup may be and sell it to whomever chooses to buy it. This is 'equal' opportunity. Everyone has an equal chance to buy, but some may not get to capitalize on that chance as someone may beat them to it. Not to be confused with 'equitable' opportunity.....where capitalism is metered in some fashion or another.



The only problem here is when the moron camps out in front of the store and rushes in to buy everything on the shelf, whether he will use it or not (I saw a "man" rush in the local box store and buy all the handgun ammo they would sell him even though he admitted he only shot 38 Special, 9mm, 22 lr and 12 gauge, maybe 300 rounds per year total)...

[todd2]

just had my first try with ebay i took a beating but i think i learned something

[rbuck351]

I believe in free enterprise. Keep in mind you are allowed to sell your product for what ever you can get but I'm am allowed to buy where ever I want. So if you sell at scalper prices, I won't buy from you. I have bought very little gun related stuff in the last year. A few months ago I found some cci 22 shorts at SW for $10 per 100 pack and a 2 pack limit so I got two. They had some cci 22lrs and he said I could get two boxes of those but I left them as I have plenty. I also got a lb of powder for around $28.

They could have put higher prices on these and still would have sold them shortly. Or they could have not have put limits and would have been gone before I got there. I like stores that limit their self and will spend my at places I like. free enterprise works both ways.

[JSnover]

If I owned a store I probably would ration the stuff involved in the shortage. I might raise the price a little or might not. I would probably keep those items out of sight so that I could control who I sold them to. My goal would be to get these items to my those that needed them and to keep them out of the hands of scalpers.


That's the only workable method. If the customers controlled the price it would be wholesale or below no limits on quantity and every shop would be out of business. If the government controlled the price it would be three times what it is now and there would be bare shelves everywhere.
Let the market work; let the manufacturers control their price based on production capacity and manufacturing cost vs demand for the product. Let the retailers control their price based on available supply and demand. Let the customers demonstrate their willingness to pay or not, and let the manufacturers and retailers respond.

[dtknowles]

The Louisiana Office of Alcohol and Tobacco Control enforces compliance with tobacco minimum pricing

[Petrol & Powder]

First come, first served.

Entrepreneurs are not in business to provide for community fairness. They are in business to earn money for themselves and provide for their family.

If I'm selling pencils and you pay me for one pencil, you get one pencil. If you pay me for the whole box of pencils, you get the whole box.

A merchant wants to sell his products. If he can sell them all at once, so be it.

If you harvested a 100 acres of wheat would you dole it out to ten different grain buyers or would you rather just sell it all for a good price to one buyer?

It's called capitalism.

[Elmer Fudd]

I operate first come, first served. I have built a small business over 13 years by being honest, and working hard to get my customers what they want. Sometimes they get it right away, some times they wait until I can find it. When someone comes asking for 20k rounds of 223 for the year, I get it for him. It is expensive now, but he wants it. I will do the same for the next guy, too. I don't operate or believe in equity or any other outcome based bullbusiness. If you shop with me, you will get what you want. Not every business can operate that way. Some, like the big box stores, beat me on price; they do not have service. That's my niche; you like, I have.

[Jim22]

Well, for me, I hate the use of the word 'Fair'. It has no definition and is used by those who intend to control others.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you think a central planned economy is a good idea, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW7r4o2_Ow

[onelight]

If you think a central planned economy is a good idea, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW7r4o2_Ow
That was good :)

[wyowillys46]

First, I have to assume that I would be operating a gun shop. Therefore reloading equipment would only be part of what I offer for sale. To make money selling reloading supplies in a normal market requires a national reach, and the ability to sell in bulk. Now on to the hypothetical.

Research what the competition is charging for the same product (or market price). Increase my markups to a high enough level that accounts for my limited ability to restock, but low enough that I can advertise that I can still beat the competition. Also institute limits. Both strategies serve to discourage reselling, keep stock on the shelf, and thereby increase traffic through my store (increasing the possibility of selling other goods). This allows me to still sell to those who need ammo, while appealing to the customer base that thinks some sort of rationing is needed. It does me no good to have bare shelves. Who's going to go to the gun shop with nothing to sell?

As a bonus, start selling Adam Smith's books and post a copy of Winchester's recent markup memo.


I guess I'm a capitalist purist type. mark it up at whatever my standard markup may be and sell it to whomever chooses to buy it. This is 'equal' opportunity. Everyone has an equal chance to buy, but some may not get to capitalize on that chance as someone may beat them to it. Not to be confused with 'equitable' opportunity.....where capitalism is metered in some fashion or another.

Pay attention in the media. 'Equal' is not-so-subtly being replaced with 'Equitable' in many contexts, and they are not the same. Equitable outcomes are a dangerous game for all of us long term, as they inevitably deteriorate to the lowest common denominator. Slightly off-topic, I know....but the principles are the same.

I've noticed that same thing about the "equity" being slipped in here and there.

[44magLeo]

I'm not saying any seller should limit sales or scalp. My issue is with people that have the money togo into a store and buy all they can just to have it.
I don't have the money to go to thesrtore every day to see what came in today and buy it all.
I can afford a 1000 primers a lb or two of powder at a time. Because of these gluttons buying it all up I can't get any.
The few stores around here won't put you on a list to get stuff. It would be nice.
Leo

[onelight]

I don't have a problem with limits that are imposed by the store owner because he thinks it is better for his business and it is his decision on how he prices it.
He is the one who lives with the consequences of his decision and he is the one who has worked hard and invested to build his business .
When I use the term fair price it is a category as in , great price , fair price , you have got be kidding I won't pay that price , and shop somewhere else or do with out. We can still do with out most of what we buy :)

[fredj338]

To me, limiting quantities is the least offensive approach. Shops raise prices to limit demand but most of us don't care for that approach. Limiting quantities also keeps the opportunists from buying it all up,& reselling for profits.

[downzero]

I would raise prices so people wouldn't clean me out. In a capitalist society, resources are allocated by PRICE, not by command.

The idea that there should be limits or other artificial, non price related rationing is the very epitome of socialism, also called "command economy."

[downzero]

To me, limiting quantities is the least offensive approach. Shops raise prices to limit demand but most of us don't care for that approach. Limiting quantities also keeps the opportunists from buying it all up,& reselling for profits.

Prices do not change demand. They change quantity demanded. They are not the same thing and knowing the difference is key to earning an A in microeconomics and not a B.

The demand curve represents buyer's willingness and ability to buy at every price. Raising prices moves along the curve, it does not change the curve in any way.

Limiting quantities doesn't prevent opportunists from buying it all and selling it for profits. If there's money to be made, someone will do it. Limiting quantities just means there need to be more opportunists for the market to find its equilibrium.

To put my money where my mouth is: the first person who shows up at my door with an unopened jug of IMR 8208XBR can have double the pre-pandemic price.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Would you not think that getting some is better than getting none?

DG

[dtknowles]

I would raise prices so people wouldn't clean me out. In a capitalist society, resources are allocated by PRICE, not by command.

The idea that there should be limits or other artificial, non price related rationing is the very epitome of socialism, also called "command economy."

You mean in a free market not a capitalist economy. Capitalism says nothing about setting prices. Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. A free market is one that has no governmental price controls that would include no sales taxes or at least the same taxes on all items. Ammo is already price controlled since it has a special excise tax. The two things are often equated with people often favoring "Free Market Capitalism" We do not have Free Markets, the government does many things to control prices. Milk or Tobacco for instance. With the huge taxes on motor fuel, the government drives up the cost of fuel. The price does fluctuate with supply and demand but the tax elevates the price which drives down demand. There are few free markets.

Tim

[Petrol & Powder]

I would disagree that, "....Ammo is already price controlled since it has a special excise tax......"

An excise tax doesn't SET the price of the ammo, it increases the total price of the ammo.

The final price of the product at the retail level is determined by the retailer's cost to acquire the product, PLUS the retailer's mark-up (his profit), PLUS local and state sales taxes, PLUS federal excise tax and any other tax.
So while taxes are a PART of the cost of any item sold, the taxes are not the sole controlling factor of the total price.

The person selling the item gets to add as much mark-up as they choose.
If they increase the price beyond what their customers are willing to pay, they will not sell those items.

Free market doesn't mean a market devoid of all government intrusion.

[Winger Ed.]

An excise is just on top of the price.

Like gasoline, if there is 32 cents road tax on a gallon--- it doesn't affect the world market price of crude oil/gas.
It just piggy backs on top of it as the market price goes up & down.

An excise tax is a drag on the demand part of the market
However; when demand is high, and supply is low, excise taxes on that commodity or item is not really much of a factor.

[fredj338]

Prices do not change demand. They change quantity demanded. They are not the same thing and knowing the difference is key to earning an A in microeconomics and not a B.

The demand curve represents buyer's willingness and ability to buy at every price. Raising prices moves along the curve, it does not change the curve in any way.

Limiting quantities doesn't prevent opportunists from buying it all and selling it for profits. If there's money to be made, someone will do it. Limiting quantities just means there need to be more opportunists for the market to find its equilibrium.

To put my money where my mouth is: the first person who shows up at my door with an unopened jug of IMR 8208XBR can have double the pre-pandemic price.

Quantity demand is demand. The study of economics is based quite a bit on opinions & not solid math. Jmo.
Yes raising prices is very capitalistic, but I would remember that the owner tried making extra $$ off me & not return when things got better. If I were the owner I would put limits on & not raise prices. That would slow consumption about as much as say a 50% price increase. My customers would not be as pissed off that I am trying to spread my inventory to as many as possible. I thnk most of us see it as gouging, but it really isn't, just opportunistic greed, not capitalism.

[fredj338]

Y
You mean in a free market not a capitalist economy. Capitalism says nothing about setting prices. Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. A free market is one that has no governmental price controls that would include no sales taxes or at least the same taxes on all items. Ammo is already price controlled since it has a special excise tax. The two things are often equated with people often favoring "Free Market Capitalism" We do not have Free Markets, the government does many things to control prices. Milk or Tobacco for instance. With the huge taxes on motor fuel, the government drives up the cost of fuel. The price does fluctuate with supply and demand but the tax elevates the price which drives down demand. There are few free markets.

Tim
Not really. Govt adds cost with taxes & regs, but the supplier is free to charge what ever they can get. There are also opportunists, not capitalists, that will buy everything & then resell it at higher prices. There is a diff in the two.
The ammo thing is supply & demand. All centerfire ammo prod in the US is 4-5B rds a year, all calibers. If just 30M shooters want 100rds a month, that is 3B rds a month! If the ammo manuf made just 9mm right now, they could not keep up with demand. Most primer production is going into ammo. It's all connected, so we have a shortage.

[Meatball357]

Good stuff.
So my takeaway from this is:

I believe Joe Shopowner has every right to charge whatever he wants. It's his decision alone.
I believe John Q Handloader has every right to buy if he wants/can, but does not have the right to have whatever he wishes.

We should be thankful we're in a country (that people have fought and died for) where this is even a topic.

Also makes a guy think about being even more self-reliant (or group reliant) in every way possible going forward. Probably how it was in the early days of the American West.

[Blanket]

Good stuff.
So my takeaway from this is:

I believe Joe Shopowner has every right to charge whatever he wants. It's his decision alone.
I believe John Q Handloader has every right to buy if he wants/can, but does not have the right to have whatever he wishes.

We should be thankful we're in a country (that people have fought and died for) where this is even a topic.

Also makes a guy think about being even more self-reliant (or group reliant) in every way possible going forward. Probably how it was in the early days of the American West.

You got it

[dtknowles]

I would disagree that, "....Ammo is already price controlled since it has a special excise tax......"

An excise tax doesn't SET the price of the ammo, it increases the total price of the ammo.

Free market doesn't mean a market devoid of all government intrusion.

Yes, it does. Not only does the government push up the price of ammo they decide who can and who can't buy it, make it and sell it. In a true free market there would be none of those controls.

We don't have a free market or an open market we have a government regulated market.

Tim

[dtknowles]

An excise is just on top of the price.

Like gasoline, if there is 32 cents road tax on a gallon--- it doesn't affect the world market price of crude oil/gas.
It just piggy backs on top of it as the market price goes up & down.

An excise tax is a drag on the demand part of the market
However; when demand is high, and supply is low, excise taxes on that commodity or item is not really much of a factor.

I agree that the taxes don't do a lot to dampen demand my point is that it is only a mostly free market but there is the invisible hand of the government in the market. The market in not without government influence on price and access. We are not a truely free country, the government is quite authoritarian. Taxes and regulation also affect the supply. Having to get ITAR approval to sell cast bullets, give me a break.

[dtknowles]

Y
Not really. Govt adds cost with taxes & regs, but the supplier is free to charge what ever they can get. There are also opportunists, not capitalists, that will buy everything & then resell it at higher prices. There is a diff in the two.
The ammo thing is supply & demand. All centerfire ammo prod in the US is 4-5B rds a year, all calibers. If just 30M shooters want 100rds a month, that is 3B rds a month! If the ammo manuf made just 9mm right now, they could not keep up with demand. Most primer production is going into ammo. It's all connected, so we have a shortage.

You are right about the primer thing and about no limit on the price you can charge for ammo but that is not the case with everything. The government does set prices on a lot of things.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yes, it does. Not only does the government push up the price of ammo they decide who can and who can't buy it, make it and sell it. In a true free market there would be none of those controls.

We don't have a free market or an open market we have a government regulated market.

Tim

I understand your dislike for government intrusion into the lives of the people but any form of government is going to include some restrictions. The total absence of all government intrusion would be anarchy.

Adding taxes to some item or some transaction doesn't destroy the existence of a free market, nor does it "control" the price of that item. It increases the price of that item but it doesn't set the price of that item.
As for laws that restrict the sale of some items, those laws may intrude upon your definition of a totally free market but they do not eliminate the existence of a free market.

Laws setting the minimum age to enter into a contract, prevent a 7 year old from obligating himself to a $400,000 loan at 39% interest. That is generally an acceptable intrusion into the free market.
Setting a minimum age to purchase alcohol is an intrusion into the free market but it's generally accepted in our society.
Maintaining control over the production of Sarin gas or Plutonium 239, is an intrusion into your definition of a "free market".

By your definition, free markets do not exist anywhere in the world that is controlled by some form of government.
Trafficking of Cocaine or Heroin, trafficking of stolen property, trafficking humans - those are probably the only types of "free markets" that exist in the modern world.
The existence of a government, by its very nature, is going to result in some loss of freedom by those governed.

So, I disagree that the existence of an excise tax on ammunition equates to the government "controlling the price" of that ammunition. It adds to the price and I don't care for the tax; but it doesn't eliminate the free market.

[dtknowles]

I understand your dislike for government intrusion into the lives of the people but any form of government is going to include some restrictions. The total absence of all government intrusion would be anarchy.

Adding taxes to some item or some transaction doesn't destroy the existence of a free market, nor does it "control" the price of that item. It increases the price of that item but it doesn't set the price of that item.
As for laws that restrict the sale of some items, those laws may intrude upon your definition of a totally free market but they do not eliminate the existence of a free market.

Laws setting the minimum age to enter into a contract, prevent a 7 year old from obligating himself to a $400,000 loan at 39% interest. That is generally an acceptable intrusion into the free market.
Setting a minimum age to purchase alcohol is an intrusion into the free market but it's generally accepted in our society.
Maintaining control over the production of Sarin gas or Plutonium 239, is an intrusion into your definition of a "free market".

By your definition, free markets do not exist anywhere in the world that is controlled by some form of government.
Trafficking of Cocaine or Heroin, trafficking of stolen property, trafficking humans - those are probably the only types of "free markets" that exist in the modern world.
The existence of a government, by its very nature, is going to result in some loss of freedom by those governed.

So, I disagree that the existence of an excise tax on ammunition equates to the government "controlling the price" of that ammunition. It adds to the price and I don't care for the tax; but it doesn't eliminate the free market.

I did not say that the government should not intervene in markets. I was just pointing out that they do and thus the market is not actually free. In the U.S. mosty the government does not control the markets just influences them, mostly a nudge or a push.

If the government did not intervene we still would not have free markets because Monopolists, Oligarchs and Gangs/the Mob would take over the markets and control prices and supply.

Tim

[fredj338]

Good stuff.
So my takeaway from this is:

I believe Joe Shopowner has every right to charge whatever he wants. It's his decision alone.
I believe John Q Handloader has every right to buy if he wants/can, but does not have the right to have whatever he wishes.

We should be thankful we're in a country (that people have fought and died for) where this is even a topic.

Also makes a guy think about being even more self-reliant (or group reliant) in every way possible going forward. Probably how it was in the early days of the American West.
Anyone reloading in 2012-13 saw this coming with the next Dem admin. We planned accordingly. Casting my own bullets is just part of the self reliance issue.
Since 2000 my reseve for powders & primers has been 10,000 rds worth. When I hit 10k, I am a buyer. Hopefully we return to sme normalcy by the end of the year but with Biden in charge, all bets are off.

[fredj338]

You are right about the primer thing and about no limit on the price you can charge for ammo but that is not the case with everything. The government does set prices on a lot of things.

Sorry, not true. Name me one thing the US govt fuses orices on?

[Petrol & Powder]

I did not say that the government should not intervene in markets. I was just pointing out that they do and thus the market is not actually free. In the U.S. mosty the government does not control the markets just influences them, mostly a nudge or a push.

If the government did not intervene we still would not have free markets because Monopolists, Oligarchs and Gangs/the Mob would take over the markets and control prices and supply.

Tim

" ....I did not say that the government should not intervene in markets. I was just pointing out that they do and thus the market is not actually free..."

I do not agree that ANY government intervention, regardless of how trivial, eliminates the existence of a free market.
A free market exists when there is private ownership of property and private individuals can buy, possess and sell that property. It may not be as free as you would like it to be, but the existence of some small amount of government intrusion does not kill off all possibility that a free market exists.

Brown-Forman, the owners of the Jack Daniels brand and many other whiskey and wine producers, pay enormous taxes. They pay federal excise taxes, import taxes, various state alcohol and sales taxes. They pay real estate taxes, fuel taxes, capitol gains taxes and countless other taxes. They are heavily regulated and face severe civil and criminal penalties if they violate those laws. And yet, they still own their products and sell them throughout the world. Government intervention may not be welcome but it does not equal the elimination of a free market. Brown-Forman made over 3 billion dollars in revenue last year.

You may not like the fact that the government taxes ammunition but the fact that the government taxes ammunition doesn't mean the government controls the price of that product. Companies manufacture ammunition within the U.S. and sell their product on the open market here. Companies import ammunition from foreign countries and sell that ammunition on the open market here.

[dtknowles]

Sorry, not true. Name me one thing the US govt fuses orices on?

Milk

https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2013/08/09/The-US-milk-payment-system-How-do-they-control-the-moooovements#

My state controls the price of cigarettes

https://atc.louisiana.gov/tobacco-minimum-pricing-information.php

The Federal Government sets the prices for medical care provided by Doctors who accept Medicaid and Medicare.

I am sure there are more.

Understand, I am not saying this is bad or without reason. I am just saying that is the way it is. In the U.S. there are other forces than supply and demand that set prices. We don't have a free market we have a loosely regulated and government manipulated market. Tariffs and subsidies are another way the government manipulates prices and demand.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I understand your dislike for government intrusion into the lives of the people but any form of government is going to include some restrictions. The total absence of all government intrusion would be anarchy.

Adding taxes to some item or some transaction doesn't destroy the existence of a free market, nor does it "control" the price of that item. It increases the price of that item but it doesn't set the price of that item.
As for laws that restrict the sale of some items, those laws may intrude upon your definition of a totally free market but they do not eliminate the existence of a free market.

Laws setting the minimum age to enter into a contract, prevent a 7 year old from obligating himself to a $400,000 loan at 39% interest. That is generally an acceptable intrusion into the free market.
Setting a minimum age to purchase alcohol is an intrusion into the free market but it's generally accepted in our society.
Maintaining control over the production of Sarin gas or Plutonium 239, is an intrusion into your definition of a "free market".

By your definition, free markets do not exist anywhere in the world that is controlled by some form of government.
Trafficking of Cocaine or Heroin, trafficking of stolen property, trafficking humans - those are probably the only types of "free markets" that exist in the modern world.
The existence of a government, by its very nature, is going to result in some loss of freedom by those governed.

So, I disagree that the existence of an excise tax on ammunition equates to the government "controlling the price" of that ammunition. It adds to the price and I don't care for the tax; but it doesn't eliminate the free market.

I see now where we disagree, you think if prices are not fixed that the market is free where I think if the government manipulates the market in any way that the markets are not free. I am fine with agreeing that you can define it your way but I will continue to define it my way.

Tim

[dtknowles]

" ....I did not say that the government should not intervene in markets. I was just pointing out that they do and thus the market is not actually free..."

I do not agree that ANY government intervention, regardless of how trivial, eliminates the existence of a free market.
A free market exists when there is private ownership of property and private individuals can buy, possess and sell that property. It may not be as free as you would like it to be, but the existence of some small amount of government intrusion does not kill off all possibility that a free market exists.

Brown-Forman, the owners of the Jack Daniels brand and many other whiskey and wine producers, pay enormous taxes. They pay federal excise taxes, import taxes, various state alcohol and sales taxes. They pay real estate taxes, fuel taxes, capitol gains taxes and countless other taxes. They are heavily regulated and face severe civil and criminal penalties if they violate those laws. And yet, they still own their products and sell them throughout the world. Government intervention may not be welcome but it does not equal the elimination of a free market. Brown-Forman made over 3 billion dollars in revenue last year.

You may not like the fact that the government taxes ammunition but the fact that the government taxes ammunition doesn't mean the government controls the price of that product. Companies manufacture ammunition within the U.S. and sell their product on the open market here. Companies import ammunition from foreign countries and sell that ammunition on the open market here.

The government banned imports of ammo from Russia.

Tim

[Petrol & Powder]

And that changes what?

[Murphy]

This shortage has played havoc on businesses that sell supplies. I don't care if you're in rural Mississippi, or live smack in the middle of a city of 500,000 population. When even the largest outfitters online are 'Out Of Stock', pretty much sums up how bad things are regarding ammunition and reloading supplies.

Limits on quantity in regards to buying ammunition, primers, powders...etc, are the seller's right. It is their business and no one can tell them what is fair, and what isn't. Many, are wondering where their business is headed and how much longer they can hold on before closing their doors. While some are worried about where they're going to get their next shooting supplies, these people are worried about where are they going to start over and in what business?

And last, but far from least. Either you can afford recreational shooting, or you can't. I feel for those who were just beginning their casting and reloading hobby and that's about the only ones.


Murphy

[WheelgunConvert]

That is the new F bomb.

Right in there with equitable, diversity and favoritism.

[Petrol & Powder]

Why would a merchant NOT want to sell all of his stock quickly?
It's not the seller's responsibility to dole out his merchandise slowly and to as many customers as possible. It is the merchant's job to convert their products into profit.

The faster the merchant turns that stock into profit the less chance he will lose it to theft, fire or some other loss. The faster he will have capitol with which to replace that stock and room to store/display that new stock.

Businesses don't exist to provide goods and services - businesses exist to MAKE MONEY.

[onelight]

The more traffic the store owner can get through his store the the moser of his inventory he can sell .
I have no idea how many purchases I have made because I go to the shoot at the range twice a week .
I always walk through the store to see what they have when I go to shoot .
If I was dependent on new ammunition I would be on the phone several times a week to see if any of the stores had any if they did I would swing buy and get some. There is always I a chance I might see a gun I like or a holster or cleaning supplies . He is going to sell all the ammunition he can get anyway but if he gets 20 people in to buy 1 box he has a lot better chance of selling other things than than if he sells the first guy 20 box's .
He has set overhead and payroll so it saves him nothing to sell it all to one guy .
More profit and better customer service to get 20 people in.
His store is not a gun show table where he can go home when the table is cleared.

[Petrol & Powder]

........ He is going to sell all the ammunition he can get anyway but if he gets 20 people in to buy 1 box he has a lot better chance of selling other things than than if he sells the first guy 20 box's ...........

His goal isn't to generate traffic in the store. His goal is to turn merchandise into profit. Customer traffic is only a method to achieve the goal and its a method not needed if the merchandise is selling anyway.

Those 20 people are going to show up looking for that ammo whether that ammo is there or not. If the store limits the customer to one box of ammo, there's NO guarantee the customer will purchase that ammo and something else.

The ultimate goal isn't to generate traffic, the ultimate goal is to make money. There's no use in generating traffic in your store if the people don't buy anything.

The store doesn't exist to serve customers. The store exists to MAKE MONEY.
The customers don't have an obligation to keep the store in business, the customers simply wish to acquire some item.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you had 20 cords of firewood for sale in your front yard and someone arrived and offered to buy it all, and for more than your asking price; would you limit the amount you would sell to him?

Your goal isn't to make sure everyone has firewood. Your goal is to turn that firewood into money.

[dtknowles]

...The store doesn't exist to serve customers. The store exists to MAKE MONEY.
The customers don't have an obligation to keep the store in business, the customers simply wish to acquire some item.

With that attitude, unless you hide it will drive away customers. I often support local businesses so that they will remain open even if it costs me a little more. You don't seem to understand balance or community.

Tim

[dtknowles]

If you had 20 cords of firewood for sale in your front yard and someone arrived and offered to buy it all, and for more than your asking price; would you limit the amount you would sell to him?

Your goal isn't to make sure everyone has firewood. Your goal is to turn that firewood into money.

What you talk about only makes sense for people with a single product or a limited product and no or little overhead. If you have a store that sells ammo and other things but you are getting a lot less ammo to sell then you will want to focus on selling other things. Some local stores that used to sell ammo have stopped and turned that shelf space over to other products.

[bangerjim]

It's the same old story down thru time:

Those that have the money have the goodies.

Is it fair? Probably not, if you one of the have-not's.

But "them's the facts Jack".

Has always been, and always will be.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The only "Fair Way" to dispense reloading supplies is to limit purchasers to X number of items. My bro in law had been looking for 209 primers so he can start loading shotshells. He found some at a local gun store yesterday.

They would only let him buy 200 primers.

That is the only way you can do it fairly since if you had a decent stock someone would want to come in an buy it all.

How many gun shows have you walked into seeing guys with hand trucks loaded with cases of primers going out. Hoarders will buy up everything, but what really pisses me off is when they turn around and double or triple the price and resell everything they just bought.

WE saw lots of that with .22 LR ammo a while back, and Walmart was getting bought out by the same people every day they put some out. They had workers telling them when the shelves were being stocked so they could scoop it all up!

those people suck!

Randy

[Petrol & Powder]

..........

How many gun shows have you walked into seeing guys with hand trucks loaded with cases of primers going out. Hoarders will buy up everything, but what really pisses me off is when they turn around and double or triple the price and resell everything they just bought.

....

That's their prerogative. If you don't like it, buy the items yourself. It's called capitalism.

[onelight]

Those 20 people are going to show up looking for that ammo whether that ammo is there or not. If the store limits the customer to one box of ammo, there's NO guarantee the customer will purchase that ammo and something else.

The store doesn't exist to serve customers. The store exists to MAKE MONEY.
The customers don't have an obligation to keep the store in business, the customers simply wish to acquire some item.
I am not talking about fair or obligation to customers . I am talking about good business and repeat business .
Getting people in the door is the first step in making a profit in a brick and mortar store.
They use advertising , matches , giveaways and just about anything they can think of to get people in the door.
It costs them nothing to get people in for a box of ammo . Just smart business to take advantage of that part of this crummy situation. Again nothing to do with fair . He can't sell range time without something for most people to shoot . He will sell you an extra box of ammo if you buy a gun.
I buy guns there without even looking elsewhere very often because he has never screwed me around.
If you think being courteous and reasonable has nothing to do with repeat business you are mistaken.

[Conditor22]

At my local sportsman's & Cabelas high price resellers show up 2-3 hours early on delivery day to get their 1-2 bricks of primers to re-sell at exorbitant prices.

I think they should limit people to 2 bricks per month.

[dtknowles]

At my local sportsman's & Cabelas high price resellers show up 2-3 hours early on delivery day to get their 1-2 bricks of primers to re-sell at exorbitant prices.

I think they should limit people to 2 bricks per month.

I am guessing the same thing happens where I shop. I don't know because I don't go early on any day. They never have anything for me to buy. They don't even have air soft pellets. I don't need anything but the air soft pellets so I just walk in check it out and then leave. I am not the type to buy stuff that I did not come to get. I am looking to buy powder when I am there too but not just any powder not that they have any powder.

Tim

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I can reload and shoot for a couple years on the supplies I have. And then if i need to i can start shooting my factory ammo. Don't have any factory .38 or .44 pistol rounds though. Or lgs has been limiting primers to 200 per customer per day and i see no problem with that. It's called rationing and a time honored practice during times of scarcity. I do wish the ammo manufacturers would let some powder and primers out for the reloaders though. If i were running Federal i would would make sure the handful of full service gunshops in the state had primers and powder to sell.

[reddog81]

Sell at market prices. Selling below market causes panic buying and allows scalpers to jump in, clear the shelves and drives sales through third party channels. Setting limits just encourages scalpers to bring family and friends along to wipe out the supply. If stores raised prices to the point where supply and demand were equal we could still find primer and powders on shelves right now. You'd be paying more, but the people willing to pay the going rate would be able to buy what they are looking for.

Empty store shelves causes panic buying by encouraging people to hoard anything they can find even if it's not something they will ever use.

If sellers did this the downside would be half the posts on these forums would be whining about gouging...

[W.R.Buchanan]

That's their prerogative. If you don't like it, buy the items yourself. It's called capitalism.

Yes it is, but they still suck!

The guy who was buying it all at Walmart was putting it into our local Hardware store until I raised hell with the owner about him contributing to the high prices of .22's. This guy was selling 50 round boxes for $15-20 each,,, and No I didn't buy any.

But the Owner of the store listened to me and had the guy come and pick it all up.

That guy who was buying all the Walmart ammo, was literally buying every box as soon as it was shelved 3-5 times a week. He literally has a 2 car garage filled floor to ceiling with cases of every brand of .22LR that Walmart ever sold. Walmart got sick of being hounded on when ammo was coming in,,, Their solution was,,, Now they don't sell any ammo at all! They could have limited it to one or two boxes per customer, but now it is ruined for everyone!

Now they suck too!

But Democrats suck more because everything negative that is happening with guns and ammo is directly on them.

I say they are Traitors to this Country and to the Constitution.

We are a Free Country for one reason and one reason only,,, We have guns!

Messing with the one thing that keeps us Free is Treason !!! Period!!!

Randy

[wyowillys46]

What you talk about only makes sense for people with a single product or a limited product and no or little overhead. If you have a store that sells ammo and other things but you are getting a lot less ammo to sell then you will want to focus on selling other things. Some local stores that used to sell ammo have stopped and turned that shelf space over to other products.

Exactly. In this market, if you an advertise that you have reloading components to sell, you will get traffic in to purchase it. Walk in customers many times purchase other items for sale in the store. The more you can increase foot traffic in the store, and the longer you can keep those customers in the store, the greater possibility of increasing sales of other goods. Instituting purchasing limits on the components puts the product to work for you. It will increase the traffic and thereby the possibility of selling other merchandise. Why just sell a box of primers, when that same box can also sell some cleaning gear, a sling, and maybe even a handgun?

Hell, this is how the mall culture was built up in the latter half of the twentieth century. Interesting marketing tactics.

[jem102]

Supply and demand; its how we roll:

The dealer must charge his cost + his markup or he will not be able to restock at ever increasing prices... There will come a saturation point above which no one with a brain will buy. At that price point increases will stall the sales, stalled sales will allow the manufacturing supply line to rebuild inventory. As inventory builds, price goes down to deplete that inventory.

Rationing:

Almost has to be done to keep the customer base for a small retailer. Even those at the lower pay ranks would like to have a 50 count box of FMJ's and a 20 count of HP's for their .38 spec. once a month. Same for a pound of powder, a pack of primers and a box of heads to keep going for a couple of months. We are, IMO, a brotherhood/sisterhood of shooters and the same as you make allowances/compensations for weaker/stronger individuals in the other areas of life so it should be for our much enjoyed hobby of firearm infatuation.

Hoarders/resellers:

This is, again IMO, the dark side of what is going on. It's simple; don't take more than you need... Cut back a match or two, if you need two packs of primers don't take four. "Well my grand kids are coming in this weekend so I need an extra brick of .22's... fine, but next week when you will only be shooting your .45 leave the .22's for another and his or hers grand kids. If your a dedicated shooter this is hard to do, believe me I know. But after living through this many times I think it is the right thing to do. I always try to buy as I go along. Properly stored ammo and components don't go bad for a very, very long time. I really believe in this methodology and if we can adhere to it we can come through this crap just fine and as friends.

Wow, there's my dollars worth and thanks for reading along...

[Three44s]

My solution to shortages and scalping?

Do not feed the BEARS! I buy nothing, I have what I need. The scalpers would choke on their piles of greedily accumulated supplies if more folks practiced restraint on their buying habits.

Three44s

[Shanghai Jack]

The limit is to prevent people from purchasing to resell at inflated prices.

Unfortunately we're seeing scavengers hiring homeless people to camp out overnight at the doors of places like bass-pro to save places in line. Also seeing employees of those places getting paid to phone people with advance info about ammunition deliveries. Normal people with a job don't stand a chance.