460 cases for 45 Colt shot loads

[littlejack]

I have some 460 S&W cases coming to make some 45 Colt shotshells. I have a question about the sizing down process to get the brass to fit into the chamber throats. These will be shot in a Uberti SA. From the way the sized cast bullets push through the throats, they measure approximately .453. The most popular dies are the 44 Special/44 Magnum. I measured the neck wall thickness of a couple .44 cases, and they measured .012. So, if you take the .430 bullet diameter + .012 + .012 for the two neck thicknesses, that adds up to .454 diameter.
According to the book specs, the neck of the .44 case is .456. So, my question is, is the necked down 460 case going to be a little bit of a force fit into the the .45 throats. Or, does the .44 sizer die neck the case down a little smaller than the books .456 measurements? I haven't gotten my .44 dies yet, so I have no way of knowing. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[CastingFool]

I resized a 44 mag case with my rcbs carbide sizer, and the case measured about .451-.452.

[RKJ]

I took some 454 cases I had and resized them with 45 Colt dies for the same purpose. I didn't check the sizing but they slide in and out of my 25-7 just fine.

[Outpost75]

I just shoot .44-40 shot in my .45 Colts.

280920

[memtb]

I’m using 444 Marlin Mag cases in my 460, and have similar issue. I merely ran the 444 case partially into a 44 mag sizing die. Essentially it looks a little like a bottle-neck rifle case. You don’t have to go very far....just enough to clear throat! I can’t back my 44 mag dies far enough, so I have to short-stroke the lever.Though I haven’t done it yet, I will make a spacer-block to stop the handle stroke at the proper point.....so all bottle-necks are identical! memtb

[littlejack]

Thanks fellas, that looks promising. Now I just need to get my .44 dies.
Much obliged.

[littlejack]

One other question. Is it necessary to drill the flash holes a little larger in the 460 cases, to keep the primers from backing out when fired and binding up the cylinder?

[dougader]

I have partially sized the top end of 454 cases with 44 mag dies to use as longer shot shells in my Montado, which has a shorter cylinder than the large frame guns.

A couple things: (1) My 454 brass was brittle and I needed to temper the mouths or they tended to split. (2) Take care to center the brass well or it can get wonky and size on one side instead of equally all the way around.

I did not need to drill out the flash holes in 454, but they took small pistol primers fine.

[littlejack]

Dougader, thank you for the tips.

[RKJ]

I didn’t put this in my 1st post, I used hot glue to seal the brass when they were loaded..

[memtb]

In my case (no pun intended) I used 2 1/2” shot shell load data....so there was sufficient pressure (while low in my handgun) to keep the primers happy. I suspect that, provided you do not load down dramatically) primer “back-out” shouldn’t be an issue! JMO memtb

[memtb]

I did the same......actually, my wife did the sealing! :-D I used an inverted 44 gas check over the shot, lightly crimped.....then the hot glue to seal! memtb

[littlejack]

Thanks fellas. Very appreciative of all your experienced knowledge on the subject. I have 44 dies coming from JonB.

[littlejack]

I received the .44 dies from JonB last Thursday. Thank you Jon, nice dies. I was out of town until the Sunday after. This Monday, I started the procedure for my 45 Colt shot loads from my 460 S&W brass. I did not anneal the brass. I bought a small Rigid tubing cutter from Home Depot.
First, I trimmed the 460 brass approximately .110. After that, I trimmed and squared (Forster trimmer) the cases to a length of 1.650. Chamfered the necks inside and out. Cases had been cleaned and sized, so I used the .44 carbide sizer to size down the neck to a length that would allow the case to fully seat in the 45 Colt chamber. I then seated large rifle primers in 6 cases. I used my Little Dandy with the #12 rotor to drop 7.5 grains of HP-38. I seated two, .030 card wads I punched out, over the powder. I then made a cylinder from .0025 tracing vellum (from my paper patching days) that measured .900 in length. I glued the overlapping ends with super glue. This cylinder fit perfectly into the case, about .100 from the top. With trial & error, I dropped in the #9 shot until it came up to the proper height, and still have enough room for a gas check cap. The proper shot payload weighed 225 grains. I then capped the shot with one .410 plain base gas check (cup facing down). I used a Lee .410 sizer die with the beveled entrance, to put a small crimp over the gas check, and sealed the perimeter with super glue. Went to the range yesterday (Wednesday) to try them out. At 20',the load patterned a very nice pattern that no grouse, quail would ever escape. At 10 yards, still deadly but spread out some. Still probably about 75% kill ratio. At 6', a very tight snake load of 5". Guessing ideal snake range about 10-12 feet. The tracing vellum cylinder worked absolutely great. No barrel leading. There was the issue of case seat-back upon first firing, which would be the fire-forming. The cylinder was hard to rotate by just pulling the hammer back. It needed help by rotating the cylinder with the off hand. I am going to drop back to the #11 rotor, and try using g a large pistol primer, as the large rifle primer protruded about .001 above the back of the case. The large pistol primers will seat a little deeper, and will have room to re-set flush at firing. Range report to follow.

[memtb]

littlejack, it appears that you’re well on your way to having a successful shot cartridge! Congratulations! memtb

[littlejack]

memtb
As you stated in your first post, I had to figure out a spacer block to stop the ram at the same stopping point. I used a piece of 3/8" square stock to space between the linkage and the block that pushes the ram up. It stops the ram at almost the perfect height. I may try something just a little thicker to shorten up the case neck section. Looks like i'm really gonna like this project when I get it perfected.
Thank you all again for your input.
Rrgards

[memtb]

littlejack, You’re most welcome, I’m glad it has worked for you! Having good shot cartridges certainly increases the versatility of your handgun! While I haven’t really put mine to use.....I’ve got’em when I want/need them!

I love the versatility they add to my 460. With cast bullet loads from mild to wild, along with the shot cartridges.....I’m pretty much got everything covered from small game/vermin with the shot cartridges, to anything I’ll ever hunt in NA inside of 150 yards! memtb

[littlejack]

So yesterday, I built some more (4) shot loads to try out. I did do a little tweaking on a few things, now that the cases were fireformed. I sized the cases with the 45 Colt sizer die. Then used the .44 sizer die to bump back the fireformed shoulder to clear the cylinder and throat transition in the 45 Colt cylinder. The fireformed case also allowed for a little more internal volume. I did switch from large rifle primers, to large pistol primers. Hopefully, they light off consistantly, as the 460 primer pockets are deeper to fit the taller large rifle primers. Hoping to get the large pistol primers to fully seat flush upon case seat-back when fired and not bind up the cylinder. Next, I did switch out the Little Dandy #12 rotor, for the #11 rotor to drop the powder charge weight. But, it only dropped the charge weight of the HP-38 .3 grains, from 7.5 to 7.2. I switched out the over powder wad from two .032 cards, to one .045 card. The fire forming, powder weight drop, and the thinner wad, allowed for another 10 grains of #9 shot, which brought the payload up to 235 grains from 225 grains. Again, I used the tracing vellum tube around the shot to prevent any leading issue. They are a little tedious to make, but they work really well. I won't be able to test these for a few days, but I will get back with a range report.

[littlejack]

Last week, I loaded and tested some more of the 460 shotshell loads. I dropped the powder charge to 6.6 grains of HP-38 (#10 rotor).
I did find a burr around the firing pin hole, that was causing some of the cylinder drag after firing. I polished it down, and it did stop some of the problem. There is still some drag. I dont know how to get rid of that. I tried LR primers, LP primers, and both are about the same for drag. Dropping the powder charge didn't seem to do much good. The bottle neck case would be the main issue for the case being pushed back, fire formed, and holding that position.
Tight groups are great. If I was living in a snake infested area, I would have another cylinder fit to the revolver, and the chambers bored straight through with no throats.

[jim147]

Did you enlarge the primer hole?

[littlejack]

No sir, haven't tried that yet. Have you had any expierience with doing that?

[memtb]

littlejack, The lighter loads may be the cause for your primer “back-out” issue. Insufficient pressure to drive the case back against the firing shield, thereby allowing the primer to slightly back out.

When shooting “ light-load wax bullets” (primer was the only charge) this was an issue that shooters addressed by opening-up the flash hole! memtb

[Meatpuppet]

This is an informative thread. I'm currently working on a project using a Bond Arms Rowdy 2-shot Derringer 45/410 with 3.5" & 4.5" barrels that were modified to allow .460 cases or .410.

With the Derringer, case length, necking and any rotational binding should be a moot issue and reduce the number of stages to create the shotshell. After modification, there remains enough rifling to not annoy the ATF bear.

I intend to test this as a shot cup/overpowder wad: Harvester Premium Sabots for 45 cal (H4540B & H14540BR) from Ballistic Products. They push down into the .460 case and seal the base of the shot with the sabot fingers. Im away from by bench for a few days, but I think it was close to 300gr of #11 shot before adding a 45 cal gas check to top it off.

I have not settled on a powder charge yet.

My Magtech Brass shotshells arrived after backorder and may prove to be an even simpler solution in the Derringer.

[jim147]

Rereading you load data I would think you would need to drill out the holes but maybe something to play with.

[17nut]

Rereading you load data I would think you would need to drill out the holes but maybe something to play with.

Why???
Do you really think any size increase in/on a standard flash hole size would have any use-/meaningfull impact in/on powder burn in such a small powder charge?

How fast can you roast a marshmallow?

If you have a bonfire 10 times the size can you do it in 1/10'th the time?

Then why do you think a (way) larger flash hole would ignite a small amount of gunpowder way faster and way batter than a standard size one?

[ReloaderFred]

Why???
Do you really think any size increase in/on a standard flash hole size would have any use-/meaningfull impact in/on powder burn in such a small powder charge?

How fast can you roast a marshmallow?

If you have a bonfire 10 times the size can you do it in 1/10'th the time?

Then why do you think a (way) larger flash hole would ignite a small amount of gunpowder way faster and way batter than a standard size one?

Enlarging the flash hole isn't intended to better ignite the powder. The intended purpose is to release the pressure of the exploding primer compound forward into the case and to lessen the problem of primer set back, which locks up the cylinder. There isn't enough pressure built up with the light charge of powder to drive the case back hard enough to reseat the primer into the primer pocket all the way. By drilling out the flash hole to 1/8", it gives the pressure a larger vent forward.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[littlejack]

Yes, drilling out the flash hole in a few cases is my next step. I did ponder the thought that the tapered shoulder and case set-back could be another issue causing, or adding to the problem. But then, I thought about all the cartridges chambered in revolvers that have a shoulder, even it be small. The 38-40, 32-20, 25-20 come to mind, with no issues with the case set back enough to bind the cylinder. I'll do a range report, and update the results. Thank you all for your input.

[jim147]

Looking back, you are dropping the charges so yes drilling out primer hole might help. You have a plus on this. Since you are not using .45 brass you don't have to mark them as shot loads only.

[littlejack]

:-)

[littlejack]

Sorry for the slow update. I did drill out the flash hole in five of the 460 cases. At the range session, there was still a small amount of setback. There may be a little to much clearance between the firing pin, and the firing pin hole, allowing a minute amount of primer to bleed into the gap, and cause drag. I will try both dropping the powder charge a bit, and drilling the flash hole a bit larger, and do another range session.
Another range report coming.

[littlejack]

Another slow update, to many honey-do's. So, today I loaded up five more of the 460 shot cartridges. This time, I dropped to the next lower Little Dandy rotor. There was very little difference (one/tenth grain) in the weight of the charge dropped. Charge was 6.5 grains of HP-38. This time, I switched to LR primers in place of the LP primers previously used. My theory is, the LR primer being of thicker material, may not deform into the firing pin hole, causing cylinder rotation problems. So, with 6.5 grains of HP-38, and one .060 over powder wad, the shot weight is 225 grains. Just a smidgen over one/half ounce. The shot nests in the tracing vellum tube, to reduce leading. The over shot wad is .045 card material. Then, a slight roll crimp and a small bead of super glue to seal the osw in place. Heading to the range tomorrow. Range report to follow.

[littlejack]

Back from the range. Well, I guess it's all a matter of physics, meaning, we can't change what's happening in the cylinders. The LR primers did not help. Upon firing the cartridge, the case is slammed forward by the hammer strike and firing pin hitting the primer. Then, the powder charge it lit by the primer, which propels the projectile (in this case shot) forward. Then, the pressure of the gasses pushing the projectile forward, propells the cartridge case rearward against the breech face, and out to fit the chamber. So, in this case, (pun?) with the transition from the chamber to the throat, the case is transformed to a taper or "wedge if you will" in the chamber. The slight setback of the primer out of its pocket, leaves no clearence at all for the fireformed case to move either fore or aft. Therein lies the problem of the binding cylinder. The primer is being slammed back into the light tool mark's in the breech face. I could try a heavier powder charge, to try and reseat the primer, but I do think that would be counter productive for the cartridge.
Regards to all y'all.

[littlejack]

FYI:
I did check one last thing before I decided to turn my attention to different projects. Lastly, I used a universal repriming die, to knock out the spent primer. I then tried the fired case in all of the chambers in the cylinder of the firearm it was fired in. Seeing as how all the chambers are not exactly the same, I fit the case in the chamber that fit the best, and seated the furthest. There was still slight setback out of the chamber, by the case head. Then, I checked the clearance between the breach face and the face of the of the case. Yep, sho'nuff, the case was still dragging on the breach face without the primer. After that check, I tapped the case up tight into the chamber. Holding the revolver up in front of a light, there was only a couple thousandths clearance. So, with the cartridge case being slammed back hard against the breach face, and the case being fireformed to the configuration of the chamber, "it won't work" for me anyway.