30/357 revolver wildcat, opinions and suggestions welcome

[AP30N]

So when I was living in a place with lots of gun violence (the illegal type and automatic ones too) and bullet proof vest was fairly common (stolen police vest) I have always wanted a handgun with enough power to defeat level 3A vests without resorting to fancy boolit designs like THV and steel core J-word bullet. So the idea of necking down a 357 mag to take a 30 cal 120 gr J-WORD at about 1500pfs had been on my mind for years. I couldn't afford the custom work then


Many years later, I now live in a country where guns are only legal for hunting and sport but still would like to have one built because it was amy dream to make it happen. In a lever action (with blunt boolit) or a mini Martini action, say 120 Cast boolit at around 1500 fps should be handy for small games, but can be pushed to 1800 with a gas check too.

I also need a handgun built too (don't ask why, I don't even know myself), the idea is to get a Ruger Black hawk in 30 Carbine, just ream the chambers a 7.62*25 or 300 BLK reamer, should be a fairly easy job. My only concern is the set back, the .22 Jet S&W 53 was plagued by it. I believe 300 BLK has much less taper, so I may just get away with it. I am thinking of doing just one chamber first, use it for load development and see if there is set back. If it's a no go, I can at least load the rest of the chambers with 30 Carbine so the gun won't be a door stop.

Here is a 30/357 that I necked down with a 7.62*25 die (I sized the lower half of the wall with a 38 die), I think it looks pretty neat too, pretty much a short 300 blk with rim. Sure it has been done before but I can't seem to find reference.....

Sorry, I took the nearest bullet on my bench when I made up the dummy and it just happened to be a saboted J-word....

Opinion? Suggestions?

[Nueces]

Paco Kelly did considerable work with this one in the 80s, all in lever guns. He sold me his original reamer, but I have not made a chamber with it. Go nose around his site and the forum therein: https://leverguns.com/

[Mk42gunner]

The .30 Badger (I think) is basically what you want; but it is on a .38 Special case, so probably wouldn't get the desired velocity. Don't know for sure, I never played with one.

I think the round would be fine in a fixed barrel/ chamber gun, but I have read lots of stories about case set back in revolvers with bottle necked cases. Cylinder length .45 Colt shotshells made from .444 Marlin cases convinced me not to ever deliberately chamber a revolver for a bottle necked case.

Robert

[Nobade]

Dave Manson made my 30 Badger reamer, and we discussed that if I ever got another one it would be without the rim cutting part so it could be run into work with 38 spl, 357 mag, or 357 max brass.

[Kylongrifle32]

I have a Contender barrel chambered in 321 GNR. This is a short necked 30/357 cartridge by Gary Reeder. You can Google his website and check out his line up of revolver cartridges.

[AP30N]

Thanks all for the input, I can only hope the tapper and shoulder are slight so won't set back as much as a .22 Jet. I may also invest in a reamer that will have true straight wall so I only have to deal with the shoulder. I guess Nickle plated brass will spring back better too (but service life sux).

Just wonder if anyone has first hand experience with a Mag Research BFG 30-30, lots of taper but I don't seem to hear set back complaints about it (may they are just not that many around)?

[Jedman]

I did the 300 blk out / 357 in a lightweight rifle I built. I shortened the sizing die by .063 off the bottom and it forms 357 mag brass perfectly every time in one pass. The reason I shortened it was the rifle I built it on was a former Yildiz 410 lightweight folding shotgun with a aluminum alloy receiver and I didn’t want anyone to be able to chamber a 300 blk out in it as it would certainly be unsafe. I load the cartridge to a much lower pressure and when I start to get primer flow into the breechface of the receiver I know to back the load off some.
In a strong handgun or a rifle like a martini cadet you could load it to its potential and that would be more than a 30 Carbine.

Jedman

[badguybuster]

The 5.7x28 pistol cartridge defeats Level IIIA. Im

[Drm50]

Many knowledgeable people have been fighting bottle neck battle in revolvers for years. Anything is possible in fixed chamber but that has nothing to do with revolvers.

[Boogieman]

Back before the 22 Jet someone ,
i think it was Christys Gun Shop, made some 30x357s in Great Western Single Actions

[rockrat]

I think there was a 30 Bobcat that was a 30/357. I remember an article where someone built a 30/357 and the rounds used a sleeve over the neck of the round to prevent setback. IIRC it was a high density plastic and would last for about 3 rounds. Eject the round and pull off the sleeve and resize/reload and use the sleeve again. Would a 327 Federal work for you, instead of going thru all the trouble of making a wildcat?

[dverna]

I think there was a 30 Bobcat that was a 30/357. I remember an article where someone built a 30/357 and the rounds used a sleeve over the neck of the round to prevent setback. IIRC it was a high density plastic and would last for about 3 rounds. Eject the round and pull off the sleeve and resize/reload and use the sleeve again. Would a 327 Federal work for you, instead of going thru all the trouble of making a wildcat?

I was thinking the same thing about the .327.

I looked at getting a .30 Badger a few years ago and the cost was more than I could justify. Looked at the .32 or .327 but realized they would "obsolete" my .38 Spl's for plinking and fun shooting...and that was pointless. Saving a bit of lead and powder made no sense at all. And if I want more power, the .357 beats any .32 out there.

A bottleneck case makes no sense for such a low powered round; especially if there is a desire to run a revolver IMHO.

[357Mag]

AP30N -

Howdy !

Am wondering what frame size you might be able to accomodate, to suit your revolver needs ? I also DK whether you would consider a .32" cal wildcat ?

For a "N" frame "Smith application, neck-downs would be possible for a variety of cases.

I necked-down sample .357Mag cases to .32" cal, just to see how much faster they might speed-load into a .357Mag-sized cylinder opening.

Also trial formed a handfull of .35 Remington cases that were shortened to "Magnum " length, and necked-down to .357" calibre.
Sort of a rimless .357 B & D. I used " moon clips " intended for .45ACP "N" frame use, to hold the dummy wildcat rounds in the cylinder.
Here again, one thought was how speed loading might be " speeded " up ( easier to fit .357" cal bullets into the cylinder opening that accepted
.44Mag-sized case . A .357AutoMag case would be similar. But..... cartridges like that could become too much for a revolver application; if close attention not paid to component selection; and ultimately load pressures. The .32" cal 7.92 X 33 "Kurz " is another similar type case.

Comparison to .22Jet may not tell the whole tale ? The .32-.357Mag wildcat mentioned above didn't have a whole lot of neck length, so still had a goodly section of straight case wall for gripping the cylinder after being fired. The neck was not l-o-n-g and tapered, like the ' Jet; which is a feature often decried on the latter case.

Please keep us posted !


With regards,
357Mag

[Jim22]

Since you are talking about a rifle I would consider the .300 Blackout. I don't think it would work in a revolver because of what the others above had to say about setback. Single shot pistols are another matter. I might consider making rimless cases for the rifle and rimmed cases for the single shot pistol - out of .357 MAX brass. Use the same loading dies for both with different shell holders.

[Pressman]

I have a box of 30 Badger ammo Dave Manson sent me 20 years ago when I was contemplating such a round. The high cost of getting a second 30 Carbine Blackhawk put the brakes on that project.

I have a 357/44 B&D and it loaded hot enough it will set the case back and bind the cylinder. I have found that I don't need to load that hot. If I think I need to load hot then they are fired in a H&R Handi rifle

Dave made me a reamer for something called the 41 Whitetail, A 45 Colt necked to 41. I have loaded some stiff loads in it, near 414 Dan Wesson velocity with no setback.
Getting dies made by Redding cost me more than the cost of the Blackhawk. Ouch.

[AP30N]

Ok thanks guys for all the input, I guess I already knew the potential set back and not too much more a 357mag / 327 mag couldn't do that a 30/357 would. However this has been my "childhood" dream (I was 16 when I had my first revolver) ... The idea is to use a Ruger GP100 in 327 or a Blackhawk, the mini Martin can be used to eat any load that binds the cylinder (I hate pulling bullets). My smith has advised that I use a Blackhawk as the thinks that he could just bore it out bigger and insert a 30 carbine sleeve, if cylinder binding is an issue, no one will know our misadventures.....

30 cal also gives a better selection of J-word bullets then 32. He offered to just do one chamber to check first, so less costly if he has to sleeve the chamber

With a GP, the extractor star also has to be milled for a 357 rim

I may just do that, will keep you posted.

[Nueces]

Paco Kelly's reamer differed from most other versions of the 30/357, in that it had a long neck (for cast bullets) and a 32-20 style sloping shoulder. I think it would behave better in a revolver cylinder than most other designs.

[lar45]

https://singleactions.com/articlesmain.html
You might consider reading the article on the 30streaker.
It's a slightly shorter 30 Herrett. You could short chamber with a standard reamer and load with shortened Herrett dies.
There's a 30-357 AET, I think,
I built a 30-38spl single shot years ago and called it the 30Erin. Basically run a 38 case into a 7.62x25 size die and loaded with the Lee .311-113

[Gtek]

Why not just design a sabot to fit unmodified cases, cupped internal and stepped OD to prevent set back and no modification to delivery system required. Would think charge for a clad would be less PSI peak spike and a wee bit more velocity with sabot. Thinking a 149 M2 in a 38 case in revolver or a 150 flat for rifle with some of that white plastic stuff sticking out up front. What was that Remington thing called, Accelerator?

[M-Tecs]

Gtek beat me to it. In the 80's I had some 357 sabots that allowed 22 Cal bullets.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sabot-for-handgun-ammo.703778/

http://www.jdcomponents.com/loadinfo/loadinfo.html

[Stephen Cohen]

I also did as Jedman did and it is a fine cartridge, do a google of the 30-357 AeT that should answer your questions. Regards Stephen

[lar45]

There are muzzleloader 35 cal sabots available for 30 cal bullets. I'll see if I can find the link when I get home

[lar45]

https://mmpsabots.com/test-results-grey-sabot/