Alox: Is it good or bad, explain.

[nitro-express]

I'm seeing lube advertised as being Alox free, and other lubes advertised as be Alox formulated.

Edit: I'm referring to the old style hollow stick hard lube, not the alox liquids.

And honestly, I'm a bit confused, because in each case, they claim this as an advantage or selling feature.

When I started making my own bullets a few years ago, I found a bag of lube sticks for sale at a gunshow, Micro-Lube, and those sticks, and some Lyman moly and orange that I bought on sale have served me well. Unfortunately I'm on my last 1/2 a sizer full of lube, and am searching for a new supply. Finding Micro-Lube is not an option, having been discontinued years ago. BTW: Micro-Lube seems to be an excellent product, I've not had any issues, pistol or rifle, high velocity or low velocity, it worked for me. I could use some hot box lube that I got at a gunshow, but it's not in sticks, and I'm not sure if it works. (It's called GALENA, and at a few dollars a box, it was hard to pass up.)

Anyways: Alox? or Alox Free? What do I want and why?

Nitro.

[Outpost75]

Alox bullet lube is made from calcium soap. Most people use way too much of it, which increases smoke in indoor ranges and they don't like the smell. They are simply using too much lube. With the Lee Liquid Alox there is no need to fill the lube grooves, use only enough to make the bullets a light brassy color. With the stick lube loading .38 Special wadcutters like the H&G No.50 fill only the bottom lube groove.

I bulk-lube bullets using LSStuff, Lee Liquid Alox or 45-45-10. I dilute the liquid lube with equal parts by volume of odorless mineral spirits. I use an empty .30 cal. ammo can as a bulk measure for the bullets, and then pour these into a .50 cal. ammo can. One Chock-Full-O-Nuts coffee scoop of the diluted lube then goes into the .50 cal. can, the lid is snapped shut and the can genbtly agitated end to end, and then size to size twenty times. Then pop the lid off the can and rest an 10-inch box fan over the top and let it aerate the bullets to help evaporate the excess solvent. After about 4 hours, snap the lid down on the can and gently agitate the bullets again, then open the lid and aerate the can another four hours, then pour the bullets out onto waxed paper lined cookie sheets.

This is all that is needed for light target wadcutter loads or cowboy loads in .38 Special or .45 ACP. For heavier loads such as .38 Special +P, 9mm and rifle gallery loads with plainbased bullets apply two light coats as described. Two light coats are more effective than trying to apply one heavy coat. For rifle and magnum revolver loads requiring gaschecks I prefer 50-50 Alox-beeswax stick lube.

[Jim22]

There are now a lot of good boolit lubes available. If you like using a lube sizer there are a lot of companies offering sticks for your machine. Read more threads and posts. Alox has its place. I don't use it for high velocity boolits. I prefer a solid lube and a gas check. I have also been experimenting with powder coating. There is a lot on this forum about that as well. I do use Alox for loads like the .38 Special or the .32 S&W Long.

[Waisting lead]

I don't know if this will help, but all I do is first make sure they all dropped well. And after that I put them in a semi deep metal box that I welded up just for the purpose.
I cut off a small chunk of lube and toss it in then I take a heat gun, melt the lube and toss until they start to cool down and then put them in a bulk container until I can size them. That usually does the trick. I've found that the medium melt sticks work the best and they're not as messy as the low temp.

[greenjoytj]

I would search for an ALOX free lube because I’ve read that the Lubrizol company that made ALOX has stopped production of that product. Industry must have moved on to a cheaper equivalent or a better alternative product. Only residual stocks of ALOX are available and when that’s gone it’s gone for good. Some other yet to be adapted product will need to be discovered as a useful bullet lube component. Remember the ALOX formula from the 1960s hasn’t been made in decades and the ALOX that replaced it was different formula again. And now that’s gone too, so company’s that relied on ALOX being available are going to have search for an alternative product if thay want something to sell. If what ever alternative product they come up with turns out to be crap it won’t take long for the word to spread regarding whether its bad or a good lube product.

[GregLaROCHE]

Wasn’t Alox originally used for lubricating steel cables (wire rope) on reels and when going through pulleys?

[Outpost75]

Wasn’t Alox originally used for lubricating steel cables (wire rope) on reels and when going through pulleys?

Correct, above deck cables and winches subject to salt spray and also for deck guns on WW2 diesel subs subject to complete seawater immersion.

[samari46]

Haven't bought a new vehicle in 14 years but remember the spray on undercoating definitely smelled like Alox 2138F (the old original alox used for cast bullets) especially when the previous vehicle warmed up. Frank

[Outpost75]

Haven't bought a new vehicle in 14 years but remember the spray on undercoating definitely smelled like Alox 2138F (the old original alox used for cast bullets) especially when the previous vehicle warmed up. Frank

My mechanic in NH in the 1980s told me that Tuff-Coat Dynol and Ziebart both were Alox 2138F blended in motor oil.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Alox: Is it good or bad, explain.
Here is the short version.
It's a real good ingredient for boolit lube,
It has a smell, that many think is bad.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

For pistol caliber Lever Action Silhouette in 357 magnum and 44WCF I use White Label Lube 50/50 Alox and Bee's Wax. It works. Keeps the bore clean with zero leading. These low pressure loads are in the 900fps to 1200fps range from 24" barrels. I used to pan lube and now I use a Lyman/Ideal 45 . I have enough for several years if not a life time. As to hollow sticks of lube....I don't use them. It is very easy to use a small Pyrex measuring cup to fill the reservoir . Just melt the lube in a microwave and pour it in the lube/sizer.

[nitro-express]

Here is the short version.
It's a real good ingredient for boolit lube,
It has a smell, that many think is bad.

That seems to sum up what I've been able to glean from various sources, including this thread. Thanks everyone.

A common theme is the smoke, and the smell of the smoke, not pleasant in an indoor range.

I also learned that grease can be categorised according to it's base. Automotive/industrial lubes can be clasified as to what kind of thickener they use in their formulation; those thickeners can be lithium complex, calcium sulfonate, clay (bentone, a derivative of bentonite clay), and polyurea.

According to what I could ascertain, all the Alox products are a calcium sulfonate based product. Most of the formulations of bullet lube use at least one ingredient as their source of calcium sulfonate. For example steam valve grease uses a high concentration of calcium sulfonate, ATF has a much lower concentration. Calcium sulfonate is the soap or detergent in the lubricants formulation. Calcium sulfonate has good pressure characteristics. Most calcium sulfonate greases are rated EP, (Extreme Pressure). Lithium complex greases need additional additives to get that EP rating.

Bullet lube is a grease specifically formulated for that purpose. I haven't heard of any other products that use some bullet lube in their formula.

A common theme in bullet lube seems to be the requirement of a "soap" or thickener. Of the various soaps; lithium complex, calcium sulfonate, clay (bentone, a derivative of bentonite clay), and polyurea, the more common choice is calcium sulfonate, followed by lithium complex. Clay and polyurea don't get much mention.

Cost and availability are a factor, calcium sulfonate is expensive to make and it is of limited supply.

Alox is a good source of calcium sulfonate, and the other ingredients are oxidates of the heavy hydrocarbon wax byproducts of oil refining.

So, as I understand it, if bullet lube does not have calcium sulfonate as a base, the base will be lithium. Alox can be the source, a good one because of the high concentration, or it can be some other source. The smell is from the waxy oily base, not the calcium sulfonate. It seems that part of Alox is similar to Cosmoline. Cosmoline does not contain any calcium sulfonate, IOW no soap, it sticks and resists movement and is impervious to moisture.

Again, thanks for the replies and the PM's. I think buying a commercial bullet lube makes the most sense for me, I don't need yet another variable.

I'll leave you with this tidbit: "Max Born, a German mathematician and physicist, once said, “Science is not formal logic. It needs the free play of the mind in as great a degree as any other creative art.” Making a grease is no exception. With respect to calcium sulfonate greases, the art involves the process used to convert the detergent to grease.

The

[gwpercle]

This lube works well for handgun boolits : Lithi-Bee
1 part Lithium Grease (Lucas Red-N-Tacky is the brand I use)
3 parts beeswax

When the old original NRA formula alox was reformulated ... the new stuff wasn't quite as good . A commerical lube maker (Garth Choate) in 1977 advised me to try the lithium based lube as he felt it was better than the new Alox-beeswax lube . Same price so I ordered 40 sticks ... I've never had leading in a barrel . Garth no longer is in the lube business but he kindly gave me the recipe and instructions 10/9/2014 . Never having lead in the barrel must say something about it .
I still have 3 of the old sticks , wrapped in red foil paper , just to see how they hold up to age ...so far it's still good and usable .
So if you want to try something else , I give a lithium based lube a good report.
Gary

[GONRA]

GONRA's wondering - Is ALOX 2138F (see old NRA American Rifleman article)
the SAME "ALOX" as ya'll are talkin' about?
Methinks that the TERM "ALOX" as used on this website MAY have morphed into something else? ??? (Remember "Obama's expanded definition of marriage, etc.)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

GONRA's wondering - Is ALOX 2138F (see old NRA American Rifleman article)
the SAME "ALOX" as ya'll are talkin' about?
Methinks that the TERM "ALOX" as used on this website MAY have morphed into something else? ??? (Remember "Obama's expanded definition of marriage, etc.)

Alox and Lubrizol are registered trademarks of the Lubrizol corp.
https://lsstuff.com/lube/msds.html

There are many variations/formulations that are under the Alox name.
2138F was discontinued many years ago...probably decades ago.
350 is the closest to 2138F, but according to Glenn at WLL, it is discontinued or will soon be discontinued. Glenn is currently in the process of testing another Alox product to replace 350.

[NuJudge]

If I was shooting Black Powder, I would not want either of the Alox products as a lube ingredient. I also would not want a petroleum product as an ingredient. Those are the only circumstances where Aloe-free would be a positive selling point to me.

[samari46]

Used to live in NYC and Zeibart was a popular undercoating. Wonder what they are using now?. Frank

[greenjoytj]

If I was shooting Black Powder, I would not want either of the Alox products as a lube ingredient. I also would not want a petroleum product as an ingredient.

In Black Powder shooting I believe there are myths past off for so long some think they are facts.
For some, BP shooting is like a religion, therefore rational thinking goes out the window.

I suspect that there are high temperature petroleum based oils and greases that could work with BP with out cooking into tar or varnish.
You won’t be able to use water to clean up (which I believe is the foundation the myths) a light oil solvent like Varsol or Hoppe’s #9 would be required just like cleaning up after shooting smokeless powders.
You don’t here smokeless shooters complaining water and soap is not cleaning their firearms, solvent cleaners are accepted fact. (I do like my non stinky water based M-Pro7 Gun Cleaner)

My kitchen cookware has baked on brown varnish and black tar baked on hard and that mess was from vegetable oils or animal fats.
My 45 Colt ctg’s revolvers acquires some tar production and they are lubed with homemade Emmerts Improved. I use water to flush the bulk of the crud, then standard smokeless bore solvents does the deep cleaning because they work well to remove the vegetable/Bio oil tar.

I’m still looking for the petroleum oil that can handle high temperature that doesn’t cost thousands $ because it’s only available in bulk barrel size quantities.
When ALOX supplies are used up maybe we will see something new that will work better than anything that came before it.

[high standard 40]

Alox has a long history of successful use as a bullet lube and many people swear by it. It's hard to argue it's utility. But I'm afraid I have to admit to being in the group of people who strongly dislike the smell. I also don't like the odor of the lithium based lubes. There are many different other lube options available, depending on your specific needs.

[1hole]

When the NRA/Alox lube was new in casting (and I was too) I went that way and have never looked back. It was then only available in pint size "paint cans", the thick lube had to be melted in a double boiler and poured into the lubrasizer. I got several cans then but I'm on my last can now; that's not good.

I once read that we can easily see if we're cranking in too much lube; just look at the muzzle and see if shooting leaves a greasy "star" pattern that can easily be wiped off. If so, cut back on the lube until the lube star isn't so greasy. For me, that meant I only needed to fill about half of the grooves; less smoke, clean bores and the lube cans lasted much longer!

[Bent Ramrod]

In a drawer in one of our disused labs at work I once found a dozen or so small paper packages of various numbered versions of Alox. All dark reddish-brown to black and consistency ranged from hard wax to hard plastic. Apparently they were once used to seal the glass joints of reaction flasks and condensers.

None of them was 2138, so I figured none was “correct” for bullet lube and didn’t investigate further. The buildings were demolished later on, and I imagine the Alox samples are in a drum at a toxic waste storage site now.

[rfd]

If I was shooting Black Powder, I would not want either of the Alox products as a lube ingredient. I also would not want a petroleum product as an ingredient. Those are the only circumstances where Aloe-free would be a positive selling point to me.

Gato Feo #1 uses canning paraffin wax, along with mutton tallow and beeswax, to make a very good bullet groove lube and an excellent ball patch lube.

"When I first began using canning paraffin, I too wondered why it didn't create the tarry fouling when used with black powder, as other petroleum products do. Fact is, I posed this question in various message boards years ago. A chemist provided what seems a plausible answer: Canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons found in other petroleum products. Apaprently, these hydrocarbons are the offender."

[justindad]

...snip...

A common theme in bullet lube seems to be the requirement of a "soap" or thickener. Of the various soaps; lithium complex, calcium sulfonate, clay (bentone, a derivative of bentonite clay), and polyurea, the more common choice is calcium sulfonate, followed by lithium complex. Clay and polyurea don't get much mention.


I thought about clay once, then figured the heat of exploding gun powder could create some very abrasive particles. Would be interesting to find success stories involving clay.



...snip...

I'll leave you with this tidbit: "Max Born, a German mathematician and physicist, once said, “Science is not formal logic. It needs the free play of the mind in as great a degree as any other creative art.” Making a grease is no exception. With respect to calcium sulfonate greases, the art involves the process used to convert the detergent to grease.


I use science to feed my children. Science is incapable of yielding absolute truth - it is merely a method of modeling nature, as we observe and find utility. A phrase in quality systems engineering goes: "All models are wrong, but some are useful.”