Uberti/USFA single action 45's top end?

[ranchman]

I've read several articles where cylinder diameters on USFA & Uberti single actions have been mentioned to be approximately 20-thou thicker diameter than an original Colt. Basically the same difference bigger in a 45, as what the difference used to be between - 44special & 45colt in a genuine original Colt.

So, is anyone aware of any literature that's been done on how much extra pressure that difference gives as an advantage to the Uberti's or USFA (45's) that have the larger 1.67 diamter cylinder vs the strict-strict sammi standards biblically necessary to stick to in a Colt?

Clearly, it isn't enough to turn to Ruger 45colt/or ACP data for, but evidently must equate to some above average load improvements vs say just a 250gr bullet @900 anymore. What are some of you guys shooting through your Uberti's & USFA 45's for field use/or "fractionally above average" type loads? Has Brian Pearce or anyone similar possibly broke this down before?

[smithnframe]

Perhaps the manufacturers did that so they couldn’t pass as originals!

[redneck1]

.020 ... Think about that .

Are the cylinders .020 larger diameter or do they have a wall thickness .020 more then a colt ?
An .020 larger diameter only makes the wall thickness .010 more .

But then you'd have to be a bit foolish to think that .020 is enough to make enough of a difference to matter and try to push things beyond what the nearly 150 year old design is capable of . even with modern metallurgy

For the record I'd hazard a guess that the reason for the slightly bigger cylinder is to try and improve the safety margin of the weakest point .. The bolt stop notches

[DougGuy]

Are the walls between chambers any thicker than the old Colt cylinder? I think Uberti did their 45 cylinders to be safe with 45ACP+P pressures (23,000psi) in case their guns were loaded with +P ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

Are the walls between chambers any thicker than the old Colt cylinder? I think Uberti did their 45 cylinders to be safe with 45ACP+P pressures (23,000psi) in case their guns were loaded with +P ammo.

I'd bet Doug is correct.

Consider the SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt (14,000 psi) is based on BP loads and the SAs made for BP loads. The Uberti and USFA SAs are made of modern steels and better heat treating. Almost all recommended loads using Unique and the 250 - 260 gr cast bullets in the 45 Colt exceed the SAAMI MAP. My own loads for use in both my Uberti SAs and M73 exceed the 45 Colt SAAMI MAP. The Uberti 45 ACP cylinder also has been used with +P 45 ACP loads (SAAMI +P MAP is 23,000 psi). My standard 45 ACP load [230 TC bullet over 5 gr Bullseye runs a measured 19,000 psi +/-] nd my standard 45 Colt load [same Lee 230 TC bullet over 7 gr Bullseye or 7.2 gr 700X runs a measured 16,500 - 17,000 psi]. The "standard load" of 8.5 gr Unique under the Lyman 454193 (250 gr) runs right at 18,000 psi.

[ranchman]

I would presume the 45acp +P pressures would be about the safest numbers to go by, as you guys are pointing out. I haven't got a cylinder handy to measure chamber walls vs a Colt at the moment though, aside from the outside diameter measurment that gets regurgitated fairly regularly in other reads.

Larry, you always have informative posts on these subjects.. I appreciate your input here regarding those measured load comparisons. Have you ever run pressures on cast 230-250gr 45acp/or auto-rim loads like many guys post on, in the 900-1000fps range (or higher) that actually do approach 23,000psi?? I see 6.5-7.5gr Unique mentioned alot in auto-rim brass, what do loads like that shoot on your pressure rig?

For my own curiosity I filled an acp case with 7.0 unique just to see what it looks like vs. the seating depth room still to spare, and man o man she's about touching the bottom of the bullet ... does a load like that actually shoot under 23,000psi, nearly at full available case capacity underneath a 230-250gr bullet in those short little cases??

And to smithnframe, maybe so. But I'd sooner say for additional chamber wall insurance, as the grand majority of cracked, bulged and damaged cylinders in Colts have come from the 45/44-40/38-40 chamberings which use the same chamber size beneath their bolt-cuts. A person would think an extra 10-thou thickness to each would alleviate the recurrence of catastrophe's on such a fine margin like the Colt has.

[M-Tecs]

The SAAMI for standard 45 ACP is 21,000 so as pointed out that should be safe. I have a pair of USFA's with both cylinders but I don't remember the 45 ACP is rated +P or not.

[Outpost75]

My loads are similar to Larry's, but using 7.2 grains of Bullseye metered with the RCBS Little Dandy rotor #13 with either Accurate 45-246H or 45-264H in the Colts and Ubertis and the 295-grain Accurate 45-290H with the same charge in the Rugers and a Rossi carbine. Larry previously pressure tested these for me and pressures with the heavier bullets are about in the same range as the .45 ACP.

[elmacgyver0]

When I want a magnum pistol I just buy a magnum pistol.
I have a .45 Colt Uberti Cattleman and a .357 magnum Uberti Cattleman.
I also have a brace of .44 magnum Ruger Vaqueros.
I rarely shoot magnum rounds out of any of the magnum revolvers, but then sometimes I like to.
I never try to push the envelope with the .45 Colt Uberti.
This is just what I do, please don't take it as an affront to anything as it is not.

[ddixie884]

Brian Pearce has a coupla late mfg USFA SAAs chambered in .44 Magnum and still in the white. He says they are safe with current factory .44 Magnun ammo but like the first .44 Mag on a mid-frame Ruger that Bill gave Elmer He doesn't think they will survive the little blue pill. This is not Gospel but I read it in a "Handloader".

[bedbugbilly]

elmacgyver0 - interesting question and interesting answers - but I am similar to you. I don't have 44mag but do have a Uberti Cattlemam 45 Colt and a Uberti Bisley 357. While I have loaded and shot some mid-range 357 in the Bisley, I have never found the need to push the limit of either revolver as they shoot well with my mid-range loads (using Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot or BE (BE in the Bisley). Most of my shooting is out to 50 yards and I get good performance and accuracy out of both revolvers and even with my poor eyesight, I can hit paper, cans, steel, etc. The critters I have taken with both revolvers (woodchucks, coons, possums, etc.) never knew if the cast boolit was flying at 500 fps or 800 fps. Like you . . . I am not being critical nor intend it to be that way - everybody has their own thing. If, however, I wanted to shoot hotter loads, I would seek out a handgun that was designed for it, such as one of the Ruger that take the Ruger only loads - rather than pushing a revolver to the intended limit or beyond. I do the same with my .36 and .44 cap and ball revolvers I shoot with Howell cylinders - they recommend keeping them under 850 fps and I have loads that shoot well, are accurate and will do what is needed fhat are under that limit.

Once again, my comment are not meant to be critical as I think the OP asks a good questions and the answers sure provide some very interesting info. Thanks.

[Larry Gibson]

ranchman.........

"Larry, you always have informative posts on these subjects.. I appreciate your input here regarding those measured load comparisons. Have you ever run pressures on cast 230-250gr 45acp/or auto-rim loads like many guys post on, in the 900-1000fps range (or higher) that actually do approach 23,000psi?? I see 6.5-7.5gr Unique mentioned alot in auto-rim brass, what do loads like that shoot on your pressure rig? "

I have indeed tested Keith's "classic" 45 AR load using 6.5 gr Alliant Unique under the RCBS 45-255-KT [260 gr cast of COWWs +2 % tin]. The psi ran 21,600 for the 10 shot test.

"For my own curiosity I filled an acp case with 7.0 unique just to see what it looks like vs. the seating depth room still to spare, and man o man she's about touching the bottom of the bullet ... does a load like that actually shoot under 23,000psi, nearly at full available case capacity underneath a 230-250gr bullet in those short little cases?? "

I have pushed heavier test loads with Unique and a couple other powders using the Keith bullet and a GC'd Lyman 442490 [245 gr GC SWC] in my Contender test barrel for potential use in my M98 Rhineland 45 ACP conversion. With the M98 the psi level was immaterial as that action would handle anything put into a 45 ACP case. I won't mention the loads here as they are way and above what is reasonable for either a 45 ACP or 45 AR cartridge in the revolvers they are most used in. I had a Unique load with the 452490 bullet that is slightly above what you suggest. I shot a lot of those through my M1917/25 over the years without problems before i pressure tested that load.....I don't shoot them in the M1917/25 any more nor equivalent loads in the Uberti SAs.......if that answers the question? The Keith load, either the AR load in 45 ACP cases or the Classic 8.5 gr load in 45 Colt cases does fine in those revolvers.

If I want more romp and stomp I use one of my 41 or 44 Magnum handguns. I know others don't have 41s or 44s and want to get all the romp and stomp out of their Uberti SAs they can. The "classic" Keith loads will get you that .....safely......

[ranchman]

I tend to agree with the reach for 41's & 44's when "big business" loads are on the menu, exactly the same as most here have also said. And I certainly don't mean to come across as desiring Ruger-level handloads through these Uberti/USFA size guns, if that's what is being assumed. I merely am curious where they fall in terms of top for their categories based on their build specs as has been discussed so far, in difference to the original Colts. I think the posts so far have been pretty good in that regard, probably on the right track.

Larry. I have a 1958 Lyman handbook of Cast bullets manual that states Keiths auto rim load was 7.5grains Unique. Not 6.5 ... was the 6.5 in your post a typo, supposed to have been 7.5, or was it actually 6.5 that measured out 21,600? I'd like to be sure of it is why I ask. I am aiming to start some load work with one of these 45's we're discussing right now, and the auto-rim cases for a load in that relm is one I'd like to peg down. This particular time, through a gun with a 1.67" cylinder will be the first "45" I've actually had the chance to work with ... I've only so far ever been a 41 & 44 man, (albeit 41's & 44's very-very heavily, and extensively) so 45 now is testing totally new waters. I look for bare-minimum 900/950fps & 240/250gr bullets in my guns to accomplish what I need, and that's what alot of this discussion is aiming at.

I'm sure those reading who have looked and continue to look for such data would also appreciate the verification on bits of this.

Here's a picture off that Lyman handbook showing Keiths quoted auto-rim info*
280848

[RJM52]

Was having some work done on two of my USFA guns a year or so before the factory closed... They invited me right in and turned me over to one of the long time gunsmiths whose father used to assemble SAAs for Colt...

They showed me a prototype Shooting Master and said they had made one up in .44 Magnum and sent it out for testing to an experienced .44 Guy...it came back loose and they had no plans on making any SMs in .44 Magnum...and that gun was built heavier than a SAA. The cylinder never blew but the .44 full loads would just beat the gun loose.

They had planned to make the gun in ".41 Short Magnum" aka .41 Special at the insistence of several big time CAS competitors. I wanted to order one right then and there but they said they would not take the order till they got the barrel stock in...and they closed up before that happened. When I had a .357 Shooting Master converted into .41 Special by David Clements he said he would chamber it either way, Special or Magnum as he believed it would take the pressure...I opted for Special just to have something "special" and also that was going to be the factory caliber.

I've pushed the envelope a lot in the past...now I look for more of a balance of speed/accuracy/shootability in the package I am loading for...

Bob

[smkummer]

Colt did make its budget Cowboy Single action with a larger cylinder than its SAA but what I read it was for a deeper cylinder lead in notch for continuous cowboy action use. Don’t know if the metal between the chambers increased though. I think it’s also important to know that factory chambered 45 acp cylinders have more steel in the cylinders because of the short chambered 45 acp chamber.
I have been firing 9 grains unique and Lyman’s 454190 sized to .454 for many years in my 3rd. generation colts with accurate good results.

[ddixie884]

The late USFA, Later Uberti, and late mid-frame Rugers should be strong enough for .45acp +P since they have an extra .010" in the notches if the steel is good enough.........

[Dan Cash]

250 grain bullet at 875 more or less. A .45 S&W load is more pleasant for every day shooting and will also tamp down those hombres at the local cantina.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Subscribed

[Larry Gibson]

I tend to agree with the reach for 41's & 44's when "big business" loads are on the menu, exactly the same as most here have also said. And I certainly don't mean to come across as desiring Ruger-level handloads through these Uberti/USFA size guns, if that's what is being assumed. I merely am curious where they fall in terms of top for their categories based on their build specs as has been discussed so far, in difference to the original Colts. I think the posts so far have been pretty good in that regard, probably on the right track.

Larry. I have a 1958 Lyman handbook of Cast bullets manual that states Keiths auto rim load was 7.5grains Unique. Not 6.5 ... was the 6.5 in your post a typo, supposed to have been 7.5, or was it actually 6.5 that measured out 21,600? I'd like to be sure of it is why I ask. I am aiming to start some load work with one of these 45's we're discussing right now, and the auto-rim cases for a load in that relm is one I'd like to peg down. This particular time, through a gun with a 1.67" cylinder will be the first "45" I've actually had the chance to work with ... I've only so far ever been a 41 & 44 man, (albeit 41's & 44's very-very heavily, and extensively) so 45 now is testing totally new waters. I look for bare-minimum 900/950fps & 240/250gr bullets in my guns to accomplish what I need, and that's what alot of this discussion is aiming at.

I'm sure those reading who have looked and continue to look for such data would also appreciate the verification on bits of this.

Here's a picture off that Lyman handbook showing Keiths quoted auto-rim info*
280848

First of all let's keep in mind until 20 -30 years ago a lot of load development was done w/o benefit of actual pressure measurement, not even with the CUP method, by most of the manual publishers.

It was, indeed, 6.5 gr Unique under the RCBS Keith bullet that ran 21, 600 psi. In regards the 45 AR many old published loads were with balloon head cases. My old Speer #7 manual lists 8 gr as a max load under the 255 gr cast bullet in balloon head cases. It also lists 8 gr Unique under a 240 gr cast in solid head cases. Both of those loads are no longer listed in Speer manuals, and haven't been for some time, because they are actually measuring pressures now. Those loads develop a lot of pressure, well into the low end of "magnum" psi range.

Back in the late '60s and '70s I did a lot of shooting with several M1917s (Colt and S&W) and a couple M25s. I worked up to those load with Unique and found them quite warm to say the least. I settled on the 245 GC'd 452490 over 7.5 gr Unique in R-P solid head cases which ran 950 fps out of the 5 1/2" M1917s and ran 1000+ fps out of the M25 S&Ws. If I had a new S&W 45 AR or a M25 I would use that load again but would not use it in any older M1917 S&W or Colt. The psi runs into the range of a couple factory 44 Magnum loads I have tested.

For a heavy hunting 45 AR load the 6.5 gr Unique load under the RCBS Keith bullet runs 850 fps +/- out of my M1917/25 and that, which equals "standard" 45 Colt performance, is quite good enough for me. Truth be known I seldom shoot either the Keith bullet or the 452490 bullet in the 45 AR anymore but mostly just shoot my regular practice 45 ACP loads of 5 gr Bullseye under 195 - 230 gr cast bullets. As I previously mentioned if i want more romp and stomp I use the 41 or 44 magnum. But, if you have a newer S&W 45 AR revolver and want to push the envelope up into the 27-28,000 psi range I would suggest using only solid head cases and ensure any data used was developed with solid head cases. An excellent reference for some high performance 45 AR loads was published in the Sept/October edition of the American Handloader. Article is by John Taffin and is titled; "Taffin Tests the 45 Auto Rim".

[Outpost75]

I have measured frame and cylinder hardness on several older Colt, Webley and S&W WW1-era revolvers. Until 1918 or so none of the frames or cylinders were heat treated and they won't register at all on the Rockwell C scale, typical hardness being Rb80-90, the same as a black powder frame Colt prior to 1900. Even the so-called heat treated ones are no great shakes by modern industrial standards, being typically Rc20-24, vs. Rc32 min. for a new Ruger.

While your old gun will not "blow up" with the heavy loads, it WILL shoot loose and not last if abused. Setting back a barrel, refitting to set a reasonable gap after correcting cylinder end-shake and retiming an old Colt or S&W these days runs $300 plus parts, if you can find them. Good luck finding a gunsmith today who was actually factory trained to work on Colt DAs and is still taking work.

My advice is to keep those .45 Auto Rim loads light, under 14,000 psi, using about 3.5-4.0 grains of Bullseye, TiteGroup, WST or 452AA (650~700 fps) with 245-265 grain lead bullets if you want to enjoy the gun for a long time.

[ranchman]

Points all taken.. Larry & Outpost alike.

I hadn't considered the old balloon head brass likely playing its part in that old '58 cast manual that says 7.5grains unique. That point makes good sense now that you mention it. I believe I will make a "consideration" note inside that manual of mine for future... wherever & for whoever ends up with it after me down the road.

I'll work to 6.5 once I get going on this myself, see what the chrony says and keep that number in mind for tops far as the auto-rim load will go.

And to Outpost specifically.. those rockwell numbers are interesting to note too. I have had a few measured of my own, Colt single actions, and they've run anything from 14 to 28 themselves ... the raw steel below case their hardening. Hardened, I had a privately operating metal-guy claim his own three-time sophisticated set of heat treat brought one particular frame to 38, but I don't know whether that was surface measured after casing, or if it was an alteration to the actual metal composition and he meant the steel for a considerable depth below. He was an unusual kind of genius, the kind that are so smart they're hard to talk to.. if you know what I mean. Odd duck to say the least. I didn't want to throw the lot of what he said out the opposite ear after he told me, because Dick Casull is said to have done similar in the 50's. So who knows. Makes for good conversation. These rockwell numbers and steel datas aren't widely discussed, so some guys following this thread may find that all of value too.

[ddixie884]

Points all taken.. Larry & Outpost alike.

I hadn't considered the old balloon head brass likely playing its part in that old '58 cast manual that says 7.5grains unique. That point makes good sense now that you mention it. I believe I will make a "consideration" note inside that manual of mine for future... wherever & for whoever ends up with it after me down the road.

I'll work to 6.5 once I get going on this myself, see what the chrony says and keep that number in mind for tops far as the auto-rim load will go.

And to Outpost specifically.. those rockwell numbers are interesting to note too. I have had a few measured of my own, Colt single actions, and they've run anything from 14 to 28 themselves ... the raw steel below case their hardening. Hardened, I had a privately operating metal-guy claim his own three-time sophisticated set of heat treat brought one particular frame to 38, but I don't know whether that was surface measured after casing, or if it was an alteration to the actual metal composition and he meant the steel for a considerable depth below. He was an unusual kind of genius, the kind that are so smart they're hard to talk to.. if you know what I mean. Odd duck to say the least. I didn't want to throw the lot of what he said out the opposite ear after he told me, because Dick Casull is said to have done similar in the 50's. So who knows. Makes for good conversation. These rockwell numbers and steel datas aren't widely discussed, so some guys following this thread may find that all of value too.

True that.............

[9.3X62AL]

My 45 Colts are Rugers, and my sweet spot with those is 1000-1025 FPS from the 7.5" barrel of the BisHawk. This happens with either 10.0 grains of Unique or 11.0 grains of Herco. DO NOT USE THESE LOADS IN COLT SAA, NEW SERVICE, S&W 25-SERIES, OR COLT SAA REPROS. These are not full-snort Ruger-level loads, but are plenty for hunting most game that doesn't bite or claw you to pieces. Lyman #454424 is my usual bullet here, and #454190 gets a play from time to time. The 4-5/8" barrel loses about 100 FPS with these loads.

45 ACP or Auto Rim gets any one of several Usual Suspect powders. 185 grain bullets see 1000 FPS; 200 grainers get 900-925 FPS; 230 grain bullets get 850-875 FPS, which is what my old shop's carry loads achieve in 4.4" barrels (SIG P-220). In my Gold Cup (5") barrel, these loads (WWB 230 JHP) get about 895-905 FPS. They are not listed as +P in the literature.

[Tar Heel]

Thickness does not necessarily equate to strength.

[tejano]

Thickness does not necessarily equate to strength.

Think of any of the cows on The View. [emoji41]

[35 Whelen]

elmacgyver0 - interesting question and interesting answers - but I am similar to you. I don't have 44mag but do have a Uberti Cattlemam 45 Colt and a Uberti Bisley 357. While I have loaded and shot some mid-range 357 in the Bisley, I have never found the need to push the limit of either revolver as they shoot well with my mid-range loads (using Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot or BE (BE in the Bisley). Most of my shooting is out to 50 yards and I get good performance and accuracy out of both revolvers and even with my poor eyesight, I can hit paper, cans, steel, etc. The critters I have taken with both revolvers (woodchucks, coons, possums, etc.) never knew if the cast boolit was flying at 500 fps or 800 fps. Like you . . . I am not being critical nor intend it to be that way - everybody has their own thing. If, however, I wanted to shoot hotter loads, I would seek out a handgun that was designed for it, such as one of the Ruger that take the Ruger only loads - rather than pushing a revolver to the intended limit or beyond. I do the same with my .36 and .44 cap and ball revolvers I shoot with Howell cylinders - they recommend keeping them under 850 fps and I have loads that shoot well, are accurate and will do what is needed fhat are under that limit.

Once again, my comment are not meant to be critical as I think the OP asks a good questions and the answers sure provide some very interesting info. Thanks.

I find these posts interesting and have never been able to figure out why shooters think Uberti's aren't designed for, say, .357 factory loads and factory level loads.

C.I.P. (Europe's version of SAAMI) sets a MAP of 3100 bar for the .357 Magnum, which is just a smidge under 45,000 psi, just under 25% heavier than the MAP set by SAAMI. Add to this the fact that European produced .357's are required to be proofed at 1.30% of MAP (~56K psi in the case of the .357), I think it's pretty obvious the Italian revolvers are capable of handling loads far in excess of what we'll find in U.S. loading manuals or loads turned out by factories on US soil. Yet no one questions whether the Colt SA can handle .357 loads.

Regarding the cylinder size question, the Uberti SA's cylinders are indeed about .020" larger in diameter than Colt's, while the distance from the center of the cylinder to the center of the chambers is the same as a Colt.

Brian Pearce addressed this subject a couple of years ago in Handloader magazine (Mar-Apr 2017 if memory serves)-

I have tested a number of Uberti cylinders and have found them to have considerable variance in their Rockwell hardness. Most manufactured since the late 1990s have
tested at 34 and are constructed of quality 4130 series chrome-moly steel.

The Uberti revolver features a more or less .020-inch larger diameter cylinder ( 1.670 inches) than the Colt SAA ( 1.650 inches); however, the distance from the axis of
the cylinder and the center of the bore is the same. This adds significant steel to the outside of the cylinder, as well as over the bolt notch ( effectively doubling that thickness), which is the SAA pattern revolver's weak link. If your Uberti is of late manufacture, it will handle .45 Colt loads that generate similar pressures as .45 ACP factory loads
that are industry rated at 21,000 psi, or 23,000 psi for +P loads.

I drive a 3/4 ton Dodge with a 5.9L diesel because is great for pulling heavy trailers such as when I haul cattle to the sale or am hauling rolls of hay. But that doesn't mean I have to pull a loaded trailer everywhere. My wife drives an SUV capable of seating 6 passengers, but that doesn't mean she must carry six passengers everywhere she goes. One of my uncles, every 2 or 3 years, buys a new red Corvette capable of 150 mph, but he only drives them on Saturdays if it's not raining, and he doesn't have to drive 150 mph.

One of my favorite and most accurate deer hunting revolvers is a 4 3/4" Uberti Frisco in 45 Colt and my hunting load is a 288 gr. SWC running just shy of 1000 fps. This load, although well over the prescribed 14K psi, will never wear the revolver out because I only hunt with it and use lighter loads for practice and plinking. Same with my Uberti Hombre, it's shoots the 358429 bullet wonderfully when loaded hot, but right now it's loaded with a Lyman 358477 over 6.0 grs. of Unique. I have a Flat Top Uberti in .44 Special and the load I used two seasons ago on a buck ran a 429244 243 gr. SWCHP 1105 fps, but for just shooting, 6.5 grs. of Unique under a 429421 are what the revolver sees the most of.

It makes more sense for me personally to use light, handy revolvers and occasionally using heavy hunting loads in them, than carrying heavy, clunky revolvers and shooting mostly light loads in them. But, to each his own!

35W

[ddixie884]

Sounds like common sense to me.......

[rintinglen]

It makes more sense for me personally to use light, handy revolvers and occasionally using heavy hunting loads in them, than carrying heavy, clunky revolvers and shooting mostly light loads in them. But, to each his own!

To me, this short paragraph completely and succinctly relates the great advantage of a "handy" revolver. Why carry iron you don't need when you are not going to use it?

[ddixie884]

Thas what I'm talkin bout.........

[Finn45Colt]

Today I tested load 9,2gr N340 Vihtavuori, Boolit is Lee 255 FN. Gettin just shy of 900fps out of 45 Colt Uberti Catleman 4,3/4" barrel. That load is starting load in Vihtavuori reloading guide edition 14. Maximum load is 9.8gr. VV says to stay 5% below maximum..

[Char-Gar]

When I was young, limber and able to jump a three rail fence, I just had to have a 300 Weatherby and I got one. I loaded it with lots of 4350 and vaporized jackrabbits with it. Well, a little more powder would surely make the red mist a little larger, until on day I locked the rifle up. It took a gunsmith to get it open. The case head had been pushed into the bolt face and even into the firing pin hole. You could not read the case headstamp.

The rifle was undamaged, but when my gunsmith and mentor handed it back to me, he said: "If you want to drive a bigger nail, use a bigger hammer.". That was 1960 and that has been my reloading mantra ever since.

[ranchman]

Been a number of weeks since I started this thread, and I've since settled on a great load in the SA I was referring these measurements all to. Larry as usual was onto something with his discussion around 6.5grains Unique back through his own testing previously. 6.5grains under the 452423/454424 style bullet I have my mould most comparable to gave me outstanding, very consistent groups to the 25 yards I was testing them. And that charge also read very small single digit spreads over my chrony ... I got 933fps through a 5.5" barrel, loaded in Cowboy Special brass, fired through an ACP cylinder. No brass was altered, and neither was my cylinder in any shape or form either. Size the cby/spl brass, load it, drop them in and go. What a great combo for handloading a field-load to use through Single Action ACP revolvers!

I don't suspect these style of bullets are taking up as much case space as the 255KT Larry pressure tested to 21,600 (they likely take up a minute-touch less than the 255KT) so I'd imagine this load is sitting right at maximum ACP standard pressure, for 933fps. More/less.

I loaded the bullet up to 7.3 & 7.5, and didn't see anything show whatsoever for alarm, but I have no idea how close or far from 23,000 +P or +P+ it would gauge to, so I am leaving that heavier load (only) in my records for the time being. 7.3grains Unique shot 1053fps but groups were in the 2" range @25yards vs. consistently 3/4" or better with 6.5grains. So I'm ok with that. Still a very usable speed and bullet weight to work with.. and in all reality, outside of big bears, a 250 @933fps makes a real handy all around load.

230fmj Winchester, straight off the shelf ACP ammo shoots exactly the same left to right as these 250's I have with 6.5gr Unique, but the weights differ vertically by 2" at 25yards. Close enough to have the factory ACP's as a dead-nutz 25yard-zero plinker & the 250's @933fps as a 50yard zero using exactly the same hold, to double as a grab and go field load for bigger jobs from more a hunting/animal performance standpoint. Pretty slick the way that worked out. I am more than pleased.

[Jtarm]

Points all taken.. Larry & Outpost alike.

I hadn't considered the old balloon head brass likely playing its part in that old '58 cast manual that says 7.5grains unique. That point makes good sense now that you mention it.

Keith’s .44 Special load behind his namesake bullet was 18.5 grains of 2400 in ballon-head cases and 17-grains in solid-head.