Could a .45LC really do that?

[Limey]

I've read somewhere on here that the US Army adopted the .45LC round for it's stopping power,.....''it could shoot through a horse at 100 yards''....

Can it really do this???

...if yes, every old west town must have been littered with shot-through victims!!!

Anybody have genuine facts and figures on what this round could do out of a hand gun when loaded to old west period power levels and bullets??

....I know that when using modern powder/loadings and bullets the .45LC can rival a .44 mag.......but just what could the ol'time loads really do?

Safe shooting,

Limey

[Lloyd Smale]

I know loaded to 900 fps with a hard cast 250swc it will easily shoot through a hog at that distance so i would have to say yes. It might not a 100 percent of the time with the soft lead they used then but i wouldnt bet a dime against it.

[44man]

Yes indeed, it sure can! It is a wonderful caliber for hunting. Boolit weight is the key, not velocity.

[targetshootr]

Seems like Taffin or maybe Venturino said some of that old 45 ammo was in the 1000 fps range.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I definately agree with the above writers. I rely on my 2 Rugers, 7 1/2 & 5 1/2" for my main hunting work and just for serious social disagreements. Years ago I was told 6.0 grs of Red Dot equaled the original factory load of 900 fps. I`m still using it with an RCBS 255 gr ww pb boolit. Longest shot on an animal was about 50 yd, whitetail deer. He went about 25 yds before decidely laying down for awhile. The slug was a through and through. He weighed close to 150 lb dressed. I`ve put a scope on the 7 1/2 since my eyes started going South. :castmine: Robert

[Glen]

Years ago Terry Murbach related how he got a phone call in the early 1970s from a rancher friend who had just found out that somewhere around 100 head of his cattle were diseased and were going to have to be destroyed. He had called Terry for help doing this chore. Terry showed up with a .45 Colt revolver, loaded with the Keith SWC at 900 fps, and the two set to work. Terry shot a bunch of cattle that day, and he said the .45 Colt shot through every one "like they were so much air and cheese" (and that was with the Keith SWC).

It's worth remembering that the US Army was evaluating the .45 Colt with the original round-nose flat-point bullet, which has a very small meplat (much smaller than the Keith SWC), and penetrates very deeply as a result.

As for every old west town being littered with shot through victims, I suspect a) that they buried them, and b) that it was very rare to have a human body actually stop that RN-FP slug, so I'm guessing that virtually all of the victims of the .45 Colt had exit wounds.

[9.3X62AL]

About 90% of my shooting with the 45 Colt (Ruger BisHawk x 7.5") is with either the Lyman #454424 SWC or #454190 RNFP at 900-1000 FPS. This boolit weight at the 1873-level velocity is a most useful tool, and I would have been very happy to carry such loads in harm's way as a law officer.

[Tom Herman]

I've read somewhere on here that the US Army adopted the .45LC round for it's stopping power,.....''it could shoot through a horse at 100 yards''....

Hi Limey,

IIRC, over on the British Militaria Forum, there was a discussion about a unit of soldiers over in South Africa towards the end of the 19th century. Instead of carrying the customary .455 of some sort, they were armed with .45 Long Colts because the round would go through the horses and take out the riders, while the weaker .455 rounds got soaked up by the animals and never usually made it to their passengers.

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[Jbar4Ranch]

As previously mentioned, the .45 Colt, loaded with black powder and a ~250 grain RFN bullet, was right at 900 fps from a 7 1/2" revolver barrel, but it was also loaded with a 230 grain bullet with both 40 grains and a reduced load of 28 grains. A full case of 40 grains and a 230 grain bullet would undoubtedly hit the aforementioned 1000 fps.

[Dale53]

I have chronographed .45 Colt loads with black powder when I first started shooting my Rugers at "Buffalo Matches". I was rather surprised at the velocities that I received. Using Elephant 2f (case full compressed 1/16" by seating the bullet in all tests) velocity was around 750 fps, 3F Elephant ran faster, then Goex 2F, Goex 3F, then Swiss 2f and finally Swiss 3f in ascending order of velocity. Swiss 3f would just about hit 1000 fps in a 7.5" revolver. Recoil was beginning to show it's ugly head for pleasure shooting.

The 1873 Black Powder was reportedly considerably better than Goex in performance. However, I doubt that it was any better than present day Swiss (a VERY fine quality powder, by the way). At any rate, Elmer Keith burned a lot of black powder in this caliber and knew, personally, a number of old retired cavalrymen that "were there" during the Indian wars. They verified the comments that I have made here regarding "shoot through a horse at 100 yards).

Now, I have not shot any horses lately (ever?) but I have shot a few deer with cast bullets in a handgun. I believe the stories. Frankly, cast bullets of the type that was loaded in the .45 Colt will often penetrate big game further than a rifle of the 30'06 class with expanding bullets. Before you go to war over that statement, do a little penetration tests in live meat yourself. High velocity EXPANDING bullets are not great penetrators (of course, that same rifle with solids will out penetrate any normal handgun round - but we are comparing a solid cast bullet in a revolver against an expanding bullet in a rifle.

Regardless, the "Penetrate a horse at 100 yards" is true. What I learned casting, loading and shooting black powder .45 Colt rounds is that this is a round to reckon with.

Understand, if I were hunting with a black powder .45 Colt revolver, my shots would be limited to relatively close range (no more than 50-75 yards). Hunting is not the same as war. During war, wounding the enemy is sometimes better than killing them (takes more people out of the fight to tend them, etc). This behavior is NOT acceptable when hunting. A feller wants to have as sure a thing as possible, when hunting with a quick, clean, kill. Also, my hunting loads would be with a more effective bullet than the original .45 Colt. It had plenty of penetration but not much shock power. Keith talks about a Mountain Goat that he shot with the old pointed bullet - it took several shots to get the job done, due to the lack of stopping power.

FWIW
Dale53

[madcaster]

The ole 45 has been around so long for GOOD reason!

[Limey]

Thanks to everybody for their feedback.

Glen....sorry but I didn't say what I wanted to say very well in my first post.....I said shot through when I meant to say shoot through.......where somebody behind the first target also get's hit by a bullet shooting clean through the first target....with this rounds power that must have been a regular occurrance.

....what prompted my post was I had just finished watching the film ''Open Range'' and there are a number of shoot through's in the big shoot out......

Clearly the ol' .45LC would easily shoot through a person especially at the close ranges most gun fights are reported to happened at.

Safe shooting and wishing you all a healthy, happy and safe New Year.

Limey

[Glen]

Ohhhh, NOW I understand! (OK, I'm kinda slow sometimes....). Yes, I suspect that you're right, I bet there were a number of "secondary casualties" of the .45 Colt.

[Dale53]

Since my daughter and her husband moved to Utah, I have spent a bit of time over much of the West. While my knowledge is not vast, I do now thoroughly understand the statement, "Afoot without a horse is a death sentence". That was reputedly the reasoning behind hanging horse thieves. The theft of a horse in much of the West could put the former owner in a world of hurt (desert conditons with no access to water, etc plus severe weather sometimes added to the bad conditions.

So, many times, by "shooting through a horse" the owner, put afoot, perished.
That makes a "simple" .45 Colt Black Powder revolver a formidable weapon, indeed...

It's certainly no .454 Casull but it didn't need to be (and for most things today, it doesn't:mrgreen:).

Dale53

[KCSO]

You must alos factor in the bullet. The original 45 Colt loads had a rn bullet with a very small flat point. In actual flesh the bullet did not expand very well hence the Kieth design, but penetration was superb. if you can find it read Baden Powells books on Africa, he was very impressed with the 45 Colt and reported that the round from his Webley would bunce off of a wrthog's head while the 45 Colt frm his Scout Burnham's gun would shoot through the skull ever time. I was lucky enough a few years ago to aquire a few UMC and WTC black powder loads that dated from the late 1890's. These loads over a chronograph would run right at 900 fps from a 7 1/2" Colt SAA. Peter's loads from the 1920's, also b/p, ran a little slower at about 875 average.

As to loads you need to remember that just like they do today they loads in the old days were loaded to velocity not to a specific grain of powder. 44-40 ect is just a factory tag or guide line in all actuality powder in a 45 Colt could range from 26 grains to as high as a weighed 38 grains. It is interesting to note that in over 40 rounds of pulled b/p ammo of 6 different brands dating from 1880 to 1930 I have never found a case to contain 40 grains of powder, but the top loads in all brands ran at or close to the 900 from a 7 1/2.

[Larry Gibson]

There I thought we needed all those 310+ gr bullets for all that "penetration"....another bubble burst! Guess I won't be selling my 255 gr .454 Keith SWC mould now....sorry fellers;-)

Larry Gibson

[Heavy lead]

Love the 45 Colt, out of my 25 revolvers 7 are chambered to the Colt. Quite frankley I still don't think I have enough 45's. I have 4 45 acp's, must be a weakness. But I'd hate to be standing on the business end of a Colt with any load.

[StrawHat]

I have never had to shoot a horse but my hunting load in 45 Long Colt is a Lyman 452424 (cast 30/1) over a full case of black powder. It will penetrate through a deer easily on broadside shots and I have seen it do the job from stem to stern also.

Never have tried the original boolit, 454190 as the Keith SWC does so well for me.

The next experiments will be the same powder charge but using the 454423 (235 grain) and the 285 Keith SWC boolits and see how they do. Probably more of the same.

[StrawHat]

if you can find it read Baden Powells books on Africa, he was very impressed with the 45 Colt and reported that the round from his Webley would bunce off of a wrthog's head while the 45 Colt frm his Scout Burnham's gun would shoot through the skull ever time.

Not trying to waylay the thread.

Baden Powell was so enamored with Burnham, (a misplaced Arizonan as I recall) that he based the concept of the Boy Scouts on this man. The original intent being to encourage youth to learn how to live in the wild and make as little mark on the land as possible. Not for any ecological reasons but to prepare them for a way of life in the military. Back then a military life was something to ne desired, not scorned.

Burnham's "My life as a Scout" is also a good read.

I believe he carried a Krag carbine and a Remington 1875 revolver.