Straight-Walled. 308 Rimmed Cartridge

[Daekar]

As in the thread title: Does such a thing exist? There are so many good 0.308 boolits out there, it's surprising to me that there isn't some spiritual cousin to the 357Max somewhere, like a rimmed and lengthened 30 Carbine or something.

Anybody seen one?

[vagrantviking]

32-20 in a 30 Carbine barrel AKA 30-20 is popular. Just run the 32-20 in Carbine dies and good to go.

[dtknowles]

.327 Mag. would could be used if 30-20 is too tapered for you taste. Pick a barrel anywhere from .308 to .311 in groove and cast to match.

Tim

[Burnt Fingers]

.327 Mag. would could be used if 30-20 is too tapered for you taste. Pick a barrel anywhere from .308 to .311 in groove and cast to match.

Tim

Yep, 327 Federal Mag comes to mind....till you realize it's slightly less powerful than the 30 carbine with the same boolit weight.

[Outpost75]

What's the objective?

If it's for an Ohio-legal deer gun isn't a small .30 cal. a bit weak?

Unless you could find a longer case which would hold about 20 grains of powder?

[PositiveCaster]

I along with many others have used heavy .308” bullets at subsonic speeds to kill thousands of deer. For example, my .32-20 Contender (1:10” twist) shoots 220-grain RN bullets well, and they kill very well. They are stable enough to be accurate at reasonable ranges yet they tumble on impact creating very effective wounds. I’ve fired very similar loads in a .30 Carbine case but haven’t used that load on game. I imagine that the .327 case would work just fine too.

I’ve never tried this load supersonic but it should be able to reach at least 1200 fps safely in the right rifle. And this highlights the main downside, the loa is much longer than SAAMI specs at 2.08” so feeding could be a challenge.



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[Daekar]

What's the objective?

If it's for an Ohio-legal deer gun isn't a small .30 cal. a bit weak?

Unless you could find a longer case which would hold about 20 grains of powder?

In a single shot rifle, which is all I seem to be interested in lately, there is a great deal of flexibility in loading and boolit shape or weight. Might as well ask what the point of a 357mag rifle is, though...

Deer haven't gotten more durable in the last century, but marketing has changed our expectations. The old 32/20 was once thought to be sufficient for deer and a very well rounded cartridge...

[quilbilly]

I also have a T/C 10" barrel in 32-20 that has a standard 308 bore. Some years ago I did a terminal ballistics test with a 120 gr RFGC boolit at 40 yards. The MV was 1300 fps and that load remains my go to favorite. The results convinced me that the penetration and expansion of that CB was adequate for deer out to 70 yards if the deer was under 150# live weight (normal size of the blacktail in my neighborhood). I never hunted deer with that pistol but any coyote that stayed still long enough for my old eyes to get a sight picture did not survive. I tried the jacketed hollow points for similar size and they did not perform nearly as well in the terminal ballistics test even if they are slightly more accurate.

[dtknowles]

Yep, 327 Federal Mag comes to mind....till you realize it's slightly less powerful than the 30 carbine with the same boolit weight.

Me I would/did choose 30-20 but 327 factory loads out perform 32-20 factory loads. I have a .308 barrel in my Dan Wesson with a 32-20 cylinder and I shoot bullets sized .312. I have not hot rodded my loads but I would not be afraid to shoot loads hotter than .327 Mag. I have a lot of load data somewhere for hot 32-20 ammo.

Tim

[PositiveCaster]

Yep, 327 Federal Mag comes to mind....till you realize it's slightly less powerful than the 30 carbine with the same boolit weight.

Maybe not. Speer #13 lists maximum .30 Carbine loads with the their 110-grain bullet at 1418 fps in a 10” Contender barrel. Speer #15 lists a maximum .32-20 load with the 110-grain bullet as 1813 fps in a 10” Contender barrel. The same manual lists a maximum .327 Federal velocity of 1547 fps with their 100-grain bullet in a 5” unvented barrel. It appears that the .30 Carbine (one of my favorites in the 10” Contender BTW) is the loser here......

[edp2k]

Is that with jacketed bullets in all 3 calibers, or jacketed in 30 carb but cast in 32-20 and 327?
typically a jacketed bullet of a given weight will have a higher pressure for a given load
than a cast boolit for the same load and bullet weight.

Does the manuals list the pressure?
What powders?

That information is important if we truly are making an apples-to-apples comparison.

[DonHowe]

The cartridge has come and gone, commercially that is. It was/is called .32-30 Remington. It was not exactly straight-walled, rather a straight taper ala .32-40. Originally it was pretty weak and discontinued in 1912. I know of at least one schuetzen shooter competing with a rebarreled (.308 groove IIRC) rifle chambered for this ctg so at least one reamer exists.
A modern version of .32-30 case would be made from .357 Max brass. The original case was 1.66" long so the Max case is a bit short at 1.60" (shorter neck?) but is much stronger than a .32-20 case.
This is an intriguing idea for a single shot rifle.

[Texas by God]

Maybe the 28-30 Stevens can be necked out to .308"- if it's tapered to begin with......I'm just throwing that out there, I have no idea if it'll stick to the wall[emoji848]

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[Daekar]

Maybe the 28-30 Stevens can be necked out to .308"- if it's tapered to begin with......I'm just throwing that out there, I have no idea if it'll stick to the wall[emoji848]

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It looks tapered to me, I bet your idea would work. It would have to be a 28-30+P, though, apparently that was a BP cartridge. Stick it in a strong action, blow it out to 308, and you've got a whole new ballgame.

[Daekar]

Maybe not. Speer #13 lists maximum .30 Carbine loads with the their 110-grain bullet at 1418 fps in a 10” Contender barrel. Speer #15 lists a maximum .32-20 load with the 110-grain bullet as 1813 fps in a 10” Contender barrel. The same manual lists a maximum .327 Federal velocity of 1547 fps with their 100-grain bullet in a 5” unvented barrel. It appears that the .30 Carbine (one of my favorites in the 10” Contender BTW) is the loser here......

I wonder if you could special order some 327 Max brass? Lengthen it by 0.250" or something, leave the pressure ceiling about the same place, and call it a day?

[Brassmonkey]

Deer haven't gotten more durable in the last century, but marketing has changed our expectations. The old 32/20 was once thought to be sufficient for deer and a very well rounded cartridge...

Lot of wisdom there.

[DonHowe]

Maybe the 28-30 Stevens can be necked out to .308"- if it's tapered to begin with......I'm just throwing that out there, I have no idea if it'll stick to the wall[emoji848]

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

The .28-30 Stevens is a pencil- like straight-walled case just big enough for a .28 caliber bullet. Nicking up would yield a reverse bottleneck.

[Daekar]

The .28-30 Stevens is a pencil- like straight-walled case just big enough for a .28 caliber bullet. Nicking up would yield a reverse bottleneck.

What if you fireformed it in a chamber designed to make it straightwalled?

[DonHowe]

the .28-30 case has a base diameter of .357", tapering to .309" at case mouth. I would say neck diameter but in reality the case has no actual neck. Case length is 2.5".
https://www.cartridgecollector.net/28-30-120-stevens

I had a lustful encounter with the .28-30 nearly 20 years ago. On the occasion of my first visit to a Schuetzen range/match I was granted the pleasure of firing a few rounds from a Pope-Stevens .28-30 rifle, breechseating bullets (cast in the mould cut by Harry Pope for that rifle) with the tool Harry made for that purpose. I will not forget that experience nor the gracious gentleman who made it possible.

[Green Frog]

First, are you planning on shooting this from a rifle or handgun? While the 30 Carbine round specs show higher velocities (slightly) they were achieved through a 16” barrel. The 327 runs at equal or greater maximum pressure and within 20% of the same velocity in a 4 or 6” barrel.

The 327 FM, although it is a “pistol class” cartridge is modern made and strong. In a well matched rifle I would bet it would show the 30 Carbine round its dust. My fantasy is to build a Ruger #3 in 327 and I will, just as soon as that Nigerian Bank Officer sends my share of the money to my account number I sent them. :roll:

Froggie

PS Just as an additional thought, Henry Rifles makes a lever action 327... just sayin’! :mrgreen:

[DDriller]

45 Raptor is made from a .308 looks like a straight wall.

[beagle]

Paco Kelly experimented with the .30/.38 Special and maybe the .30/357 in the Marlin M1894 lever guns. Might be what you're looking for. Find his articles and drop him an e-mail and he'll respond. Heck of a nice guy./beagle

[dtknowles]

I saw Straight Walled in the title. You know the kind of cartridge you can size without lube, easy to process on a progressive press. Not sure this is really what the OP was after but that is how I interpreted the question.

[Daekar]

I saw Straight Walled in the title. You know the kind of cartridge you can size without lube, easy to process on a progressive press. Not sure this is really what the OP was after but that is how I interpreted the question.

Yep, that's what I was thinking. I have been so spoiled by my experience with 357mag that I can't imagine choosing a bottleneck when a straightwalled cartridge will do the job. The brass just lasts forever, and the loading process is so quick and easy.

[MT Gianni]

For what you want, other than straight wall, it would be difficult to improve on the 30-30.

[dtknowles]

For what you want, other than straight wall, it would be difficult to improve on the 30-30.

I also have a 30-30 and for what I mostly shoot it has too much case capacity and too fast a twist. It is also to long to run thru my progressive press. And, yeah, it is bottle necked so if you full length size you need lube.

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Look at the 7.62 Nagant case, slight taper.

[pjames32]

Not a straight wall, but .30 Herrett uses a shortened 30-30 case with smaller powder capacity. Also not a straight wall, the 300BS (Bellm-Steyr) made by Mike Bellm uses a shortened .307 (rimmed) or .308 (non-rimmed case).

[MT Gianni]

223 straightened gives you 35 cal, 22 Hornet gives you 270. It is either go to the 327 Fed or invent a new cartridge based on nothing previous.

[dtknowles]

There are a few cartridges in this range, 7.62x38R, 310 Cadet, 32-20, 327 Mag.

How fussy are you about bore/groove diameter. How do you feel about .323" groove diameter?

Tim

[Daekar]

There are a few cartridges in this range, 7.62x38R, 310 Cadet, 32-20, 327 Mag.

How fussy are you about bore/groove diameter. How do you feel about .323" groove diameter?

Tim

Well, given that my primary cartridge is 357 magnum, I would prefer something closer to a true .308 so it would be more truly differentiated from the things I could do with a 35 cal. Still, I appreciate any input you have - I haven't heard of 310 Cadet before, and there might be those who have a bunch of 45 cal guns that see the difference between .308 and .323 as much less meaningful than I do.

[dtknowles]

Well, given that my primary cartridge is 357 magnum, I would prefer something closer to a true .308 so it would be more truly differentiated from the things I could do with a 35 cal. Still, I appreciate any input you have - I haven't heard of 310 Cadet before, and there might be those who have a bunch of 45 cal guns that see the difference between .308 and .323 as much less meaningful than I do.

The 310 Cadet was thrown into the mix for giggles it is really obsolete. The case is not much different than 32-20 so it is really no help. I picked on .323 because that is the diameter for 8mm guns, 8mm barrels exist. I think if you blow out 32-20 to straight you could do .323 it would be more like 327 mag which is not a real 32 and only a few thou bigger than 308 and not so much like a .357. We are really talking about 31's or 32's vs. 36's....8mm vs. 9mm

280943
310 Cadet


The real game changer would be the 7.62 x 38R Nagant.

Case type Rimmed
Bullet diameter 7.91 (.311)
Neck diameter 7.26 mm (0.286 in)
Shoulder diameter 8.38 mm (0.330 in)
Base diameter 8.94 mm (0.352 in)
Rim diameter 9.855 mm (0.3880 in)
Case length 38.86 mm (1.530 in)
Overall length 38.86 mm (1.530 in)

The brass is 2 tenths of an inch longer and has the same base diameter as 32-20, you could make like a 323 Max. Ammo is still in production or at least as much production as anything right now. This would be the longest straight case 32 caliber cartridge I think you could make from available brass. You could stick with a 308 bore/groove diameter but it would have some taper/neck.

Here is my 323 Max.

280947

Tim