Glycerin and Acrolein

[justindad]

Somewhere around 280C to 290C, glycerin breaks down to yield acrolein.
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Acrolein is immediately dangerous to life at a concentration of 2ppm.
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Glycerin is in soap, unless extracted by the manufacturer.
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Can using homemade soap as part of a lube recipe result in a lethal smoke when shooting the boolits? I doubt the lead gets that hot, but the lube burns into smoke.

[ButchC]

From the get-go, I'd say you're going to be fine since your glycerin concentration is going to be relatively low within the lube in the first place, it likely won't all convert, you won't inhale all which is converted.... Your tolerable intake levels are supposed to be 7.5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight, which I'd say you'd be below, again just a swag. To be sure, you'd have to determine density of your lube, your concentration of glycerin in your homemade lube, volume of lube per bullet, volume remaining in recovered bullets, determine how much combustion vs synthesis took place per round, and how many rounds fired to determine the potential mass available to exposure. You'd then need to get meteorological data to determine dispersal of gasses within the air column at your range or know the filter capabilities if it's an indoor and see how much that would leave you capable of ingesting over a particular period and whether your range would reach the concentration of concern at any point. I think you'd be more concerned about amount ingested vs the concentration of any particular air sample. But even then, 40 micrograms strikes me as a lot of freely dispersed acrolein when you consider the above factors.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps you could share the source suggesting this is lethal smoke. I would think if so, we should have bodies laying around at an indoor shooting range. I am certainly not an expert, but it appears some sources are a bit of an alarmist.


How is acrolein formed?
Acrolein may be formed from the breakdown of certain pollutants found in outdoor air, from the burning of organic matter including tobacco, or from the burning of fuels such as gasoline or oil.

Acrolein - US EPA
www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-08/documents/…
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What is the color of acrolein in water?
What are the effects of acrolein inhalation?
MRLs are not intended to define clean up or action levels for ATSDR or other Agencies. (1) Chronic Effects (Noncancer): The major effects from chronic (long-term) inhalation exposure to acrolein in humans and animals consist of general respiratory congestion and eye, nose, and throat irritation.

Acrolein - US EPA
www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-08/documents/…
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Is acrolein toxic?
Acrolein is toxic and is a strong irritant for the skin, eyes, and nasal passages. The main metabolic pathway for acrolein is the alkylation of glutathione. The WHO suggests a "tolerable oral acrolein intake" of 7.5 μg per day per kg of body weight.

Acrolein - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrolein

[justindad]

Perhaps you could share the source suggesting this is lethal smoke.


Acrolein being produced from heated glycerin, and the 2 ppm hazard concentration both come from the Wikipedia page.

Here’s a quote from the inhalation section of the SDS: “ Fatalities have occurred from exposure to levels as low as 10 ppm; 1 ppm produces marked eye, respiratory, and mucous membrane irritation in less than 5 minutes.”
https://hazard.com//msds/mf/baker/baker/files/a1538.htm

I suspect glycerin is generally not in bullet lubes, since it attracts water... and that’s what I have read on various threads here.

Ivory extracts glycerin from soap, so that probably takes care of most of the folks here. Or, maybe lots of people use homemade soap in lubes and various [unknown] factors make this a non-issue.

[Dusty Bannister]

From the same site, the lower temperature unit of 280 C is about 536 F, and lube melts at much less than those temps, I would say it is not too much of a risk, given the other sources mentioned. It seems more likely that some harm might come from melting down cast bullets, and more likely from smoking and auto exhaust fumes, which are daily and prolonged exposure. Not breathing the smoke from melted lead is sort of a standard caution anyway.

[justindad]

Do you make lube from homemade soap?

[Dusty Bannister]

No, I do not use home made soap in a bullet lube. Checking the Schneider list of bullet lubes, I do not even see Glycerin as an ingredient in any of those lubes listed for use with bullets. It is often used as a case lube, but that does not involve abnormal temperatures.

Ooops, Lanolin is often used as a case lube, I am not sure glycerin is used as a case lube ingredient. Seems questionable even for that.

[gwpercle]

I'll put this down on the list of things I need to worry about ... right below... meteor from outer space colliding with the earth , reversing the poles and the Zombie Apocalypse ...

As if I don't have enough to worry about ! :holysheep
Gary

[405grain]

I've read from several sources that when people make their own biodiesel from cooking oil, one of the major by-produces is glycerin. Several websites say that this waste glycerin can either be used to make homemade soap, or it can be added to waste wood shavings and chips, cardboard or other wood waste, even newspaper, and used to make your own firelogs. Oh Boy! Make logs out of this stuff and toss them into the ol wood burning stove to heat up the cabin. After reading this thread that just sounds like a dandy idea!

[GregLaROCHE]

I just googled Glycerin. Seems like it’s in a lot of stuff we consume, cookies etc. It’s also in the liquid used for vaping. I don’t know the temperatures for vaping, but think they must be close to powder burning. If there were ingredients that were poisoning, I would hope the government would alert us about it. Just to be clear, I don’t believe smoking or vaping are healthy practices.

[GhostHawk]

Well I vape, and I commonly use a blend of 50/50 PG/VG.

The coil is about the size of a ballpoint pen spring, 7 turns.
And it has a piece of cotton from a cotton ball through the middle.
IF it runs dry, and IF I keep trying to get another hit it will eventually char the cotton.
But normally its surrounded by cotton soaked with the PG/VG mix. It will warm enough to vaporize it. But I suspect that is far far below even 400 degrees F. Paper burns at 450 degrees.

If it was getting 100 degree's hotter than that you'd never be able to keep a cotton wick in there, fluid or not.

My wife has given me direct orders that under no circumstances am I ever to consider quitting. She says she won't live with that person.

So be it.

Everyone has to die from something. Considering that I still eat Bacon, Butter, etc. This is pretty low on my list of worries.

[justindad]

Glycerin can be removed from homemade soap by processing it to neat soap. Not sure if the glycerin is 100% removed.
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Soap.html