Piggyback II Q's

[Ewald]

I bought a used Piggyback II with Rockchuker and Uniflow powder measurer online more or less as an impulse buy yesterday. I probably paid more than I should have. It is what it is in 2021. This is will be the first progressive I have owned myself. I have used other progressive flavors owned by other people.

In reading about the Piggyback, it seems people love them or hate them. The plan is to set it up for 9mm and leave it.

Given that this is used, are there any parts I should be taking a close look at when it arrives? I have read there is a nylon bushing that tends to wear. Are replacement parts form RCBS still available? Are after market parts for this a thing?

[Mohavedog]

I have had a piggyback ll for many years and it works just fine. Just kinda fidly getting some of the adjustments just right. The hex advancing rod goes through that bushing you mention I've never worn one out, but I have an extra just in case that was sent free from RCBS. The last I knew the bushing is still available.
BTW,I don't prime on it because I found priming to be unreliable as it is on a lot of progressives.

[Minerat]

The plastic indexing bushing and the spring for the primer unit are the 2 most replaced. They improved the spring so it does not stretch out. But if that sucker comes loose it flies into hiding. I lost so many that I finally tied a piece of floss to the last one so it would not fly so far and that helped. The bushing will last a while but if you try to manually index it can get stripped out and then will not work right. When you call ask them to send you more then one as in the beginning you will need them. I've had mine for about 20 years now and it ain't fast but you can do about a hundred rounds in 30 minutes if you go steady. The first thing is to set your resizing die then the seating die. Do not start cycling until that seating die is set or you will have filled cases on your hands or will have to use another press to finish seating the bullet. I have dummy rounds for doing this to speed that part up.

[Land Owner]

CLEAN, it works well. I have had mine for 15+ years, 5 calibers, tool head for each caliber, pre-set dies in tool heads, quick change, and few spare parts provided free from pre-Covid RCBS. Priming OFF progressive by hand. Powder indicator die recommended. Sprung spring spoing above NOT noted on mine. If you dont like it - please contact me! No rounds over 2.260" COAL. So 223 is OK.

[Minerat]

The first two of those little springs I had must have not been tempered, as it would stretch out and I had to keep trimming it for there to be any tension on the primer carrier. I finally got RCBS to send me a new ones after losing those 2 and it is a much better spring but I still tied a string on it just in case. The little booger just disappear on the brown carpet and even a magnet wont find them.

[OBXPilgrim]

Bought one not long after they came out. I like to do the brass prep before going on the PB press, so I set it up to do a separate seat and crimp that I liked much better. It's been a bunch of years since then and probably haven't used it in 15-18 years. It would pump them out when it worked right.

[Land Owner]

PB II - Some Lessons Learned

1.) I have taken mine apart, from time to time, even to the removal and reinstallation of the bearing race on the tool head(s) for solvent cleaning. Getting those retaining rings out and back into their race is tough, but manageable. Warning: Take precautions and do not let retaining rings or springs "take flight" or as Minerat said, you may never see them again.

2.) Use a one or two gallon zip lock bag to load and unload parts under tension where that is possible.

3.) The Index Ball, and its Spring beneath the Shell Plate, are of critical importance. The ball wants to roll into recesses as you put on a new Shell Plate. Keep a magnet handy.

4.) Cleaning is important. Keep dust and dirt out of the nylon index bushing. Cover the PB II when not in use.

5.) The Rock Chucker press' handle is large and strong. Cadence will be an issue. Not too fast or centripetal force and the "sudden stop" as you rotate the open case from powder measure to the seating die position will spill powder and make a mess, which will lead to increased friction and drag, insufficient indexing, misalignment of the Shell Plate, and a reduced powder charge in one of the cases (which one if you don't notice it right away). THIS IS NOT GOOD.

6.) Hesitate when loading 223 bottle neck and 357 Mag cases against the powder measure's drop tube. Give gravity and the tight throat of the little drop tube a chance to complete the powder drop into the case. A pace that is too fast WILL drop a portion of the powder charge over the Shell Plate as the incompletely powdered case is moved to the next station. THIS IS NOT GOOD.

7.) A Powder Indicator Die is recommended as the Powder Measure Adaptor is no longer plexiglass (original) and is (now) opaque aluminum. You can no longer see the powder drop when using the aluminum adaptor.

8.) I have had difficulty, with ham sized hands and XL sized fingers, in getting the Knurled Screws of the Connecting Plate centered and fastened. DON'T force or cross thread them - it leads to much frustration. Once seated, DO use a needle nosed plier to give them a SLIGHT tight fit to close but not sufficient to booger up the knurls. Replacement Shell Plates are expensive and HARD to find. RCBS will replace boogered up knurled screws.

9.) The Manual is your friend. Keep it handy. Follow its Recommendations, Tips, and Trouble Shooting.

10.) I, and others, prime brass OFF of the PB II. It is, and certainly its priming mechanism is "vibration sensitive" (imo - remember that large and strong RC handle mentioned earlier). That sensitivity is problematic. Size and deprime cases on the PB II. Remove the deprimed case immediately - at the flaring die location. After priming, adjust the height of the primer pin in the Sizing Die, or take the pin out, so it does not punch out the new primer.

11.) Other minutia includes a.) the proper powder drop tube must be in place, b.) keep an eye on the rod position in the keyhole of the case detection arm, c.) keep allen wrenches and adjustment tools handy in case screws loosen, d.) It is an ECONOMIC Progressive Press and a truly COOL MACHINE.

12.) Keep notes in your Reloading Journal.

[Land Owner]

Other recommendations, with specific instructions:

https://i.postimg.cc/QMBkVDD1/Piggy-Back-II-2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GpZPyf3N/Piggy-Back-II-3.jpg

[Kenstone]

I have an original PB as well as 2 more of varying newer designs.
The original PB had linkage connected to the center index rod that actuated the powder measure, so powder was dispensed with every press stroke, even when there was no case under it :veryconfu
One of the other presses had that case detection arm/actuating rod thing ADDED on for more complexity, and just more fiddly stuff to fumble around with.

I removed all that powder measure Rube-Goldberg/fiddly stuff and installed a LEE powder thru the expander die and a LEE auto disc powder measure.
So no case/no powder, how could it be more simple :drinks:

The measures are all a modified spring return setup, so no chain or actuating rod, with the spring easily disconnected to throw test charges.
I use the wrap-around spring arm with an extension spring and a mirror for a powder check.
I needed to use a riser (or 2) to clear the PG's center index rod as seen in the attached pic, but I have since cut the rods shorter.
280527
The same setup works with a LEE Auto Drum measure, I have one, but I don't like the heavy spring pressure of it and you cannot throw a test charge with it.
I don't load rifle calibers on my PBs but would use a double stack disc kit if I did, to keep it simple.
jmo,
:)
Edit: here's a pic of some other presses waiting on a shelf for a turn on the bench:
280528
.

[Graybeard96]

Been using a Piggyback for Pistol loads since the early 80ties and love it but removed the Primer feed parts because I prefer to use the RCBS Bench mounted Primer Tool.
The RCBS Lock out Die is used on the larger caliber but because it wont work on smaller Calibers like the .30 Mauser I fabricated a Powder Checker Die which has a light switch which turns on confirming the Powder is at its proper level which is great because I cant see into the Case.
Also I fabricated my own Bullet feeder System which also works well on cast and lubed Bullets.

Only part I ever had to replace was the Stem with the Nylon Bushing, RCBS sent those Parts quick & free of charge - Sweet.

Cheers

[JohnForrest]

Greetings fellow piggybackers,

Looking for ways to get my old buddy working right again. I have always used the original priming function with pretty good success. A few years ago I noticed I had run out of adjustment on the back allen screw for seating small pistol primers. I assumed I lost a metal disk inserted into a recess in the base where the primer seating stem bottoms out. I added a little solid washer and got good seating again. I have a odd feeling that wasn't exactly the right fix But I could not figure out another way to get enough push up on the stem. Anyway a while later I started having trouble with tipped or flipped primers. I have replaced detent ball and spring, cleaned everything, polished bottom of shell plate and hole. Replaced nylon on advancing stem.

What I notice at this point is once and a while the shell plate advances just a hair too far as I pull down on the handle, then gets pulled back the wrong way by the pin that aligns the shell plate. I suspect that this is flipping the primer under the case just before it seats it.

Wondering if part of the trouble is the shell plate is made to use large pistol primers if needed and this space allows small primers to turn over? Making 5 inserts that are specific to small primers might be a fix and wondering if anyone have tried it or has another idea?

[JohnForrest]

So I kind of went back to school on setting primers. I think I was confusing myself when I was setting press to seat to .001-.104 and reading my caliper .01-.04 by mistake. Anyway I have that disk out and primers are seating to correct depth without it. That extra bit of downward travel before the primer starts to move up into the primer pocket may help. I hope it gives the alignment pin a chance to work before primer is touching the bottom or edge of case.

Wondering how many Piggyback2 users actually use the primer feed?. Sure saves me a alot of time not having to handle cases so many extra times priming off the press. When everything is running right I get a kick out of this old press. Like most, I've had it since the late 80's. My first and only progressive.

Lastly, looking for a slick way to keep case tight to shell holder of station 3. I installed a spring loaded powder drop so I can get rid of old case detector any good ideas here?

Best regards, John

[Kenstone]

So I kind of went back to school on setting primers. I think I was confusing myself when I was setting press to seat to .001-.104 and reading my caliper .01-.04 by mistake. Anyway I have that disk out and primers are seating to correct depth without it. That extra bit of downward travel before the primer starts to move up into the primer pocket may help. I hope it gives the alignment pin a chance to work before primer is touching the bottom or edge of case.

Wondering how many Piggyback2 users actually use the primer feed?. Sure saves me a alot of time not having to handle cases so many extra times priming off the press. When everything is running right I get a kick out of this old press. Like most, I've had it since the late 80's. My first and only progressive.

Lastly, looking for a slick way to keep case tight to shell holder of station 3. I installed a spring loaded powder drop so I can get rid of old case detector any good ideas here?

Best regards, John

Good to see I'm not the only one still using a Piggy-Back!
I too use a case activated powder measure and had to figure out what to do with keeping the case located in position 3.

I removed all the case detector hardware, except for the pivot bolt.
I just use a binder clip to hold the lever in place, removable if I need to remove a case from station 3.
313541
That was meant to be temporary but has become permanent.
If that clip interferes with your press lever, you could remove the pinchers from the binder clip by just squeezing them in the middle to dis-engage/remove them.

Also, you could cut off everything beyond the bump that locates the case on the case detector.
jmo,
.

[JohnForrest]

Quick and slick Ken,

I was kind of stuck thinking I needed to get a matching spring like the rest of the stations. I might try and swing one from that pivot bolt instead of drilling something new. I get tangled up in that old linkage sometimes. You should see me trying to drop bullets on at #4.

I also like your primer block reinforcement. My old high school auto shop teacher called that a "Moroso titanium alloy, custom retro refit".

After years of loading on this machine, I would love to be able to visit with the fellas that designed and developed this reloader. I bet they have a few stories?

[curiousgeorge]

Count me in as another Piggyback II fan. I've also had mine since the 80's and same as many others have made a few modifications. I do use the priming system and my priming block "reinforcement" is similar to what Kenstone did. I also use a Lee powder measure at station 3, so powder only drops when a case is present. After removing the RCBS actuating rod, I left the piece at the bottom that was pictured above.in another post with the clip on it just as it was. The spring on it has seemed to work ok to keep the case positioned correctly to go up into the powder die.

When I got the Piggyback II, it was just in a box with no two parts connected and no instructions. Needless to say I got to know the press very intimately before I got it running. I've got mine mounted on an old Lyman Orange Crusher. I originally set it up in .44 mag for my 8.0 grs Unique and a Lyman 429421 bullet load. Never changed it to another caliber and I have loaded thousands of them on this setup.

[Kenstone]

Quick and slick Ken,

I was kind of stuck thinking I needed to get a matching spring like the rest of the stations. I might try and swing one from that pivot bolt instead of drilling something new. I get tangled up in that old linkage sometimes. You should see me trying to drop bullets on at #4.

I also like your primer block reinforcement. My old high school auto shop teacher called that a "Moroso titanium alloy, custom retro refit".

After years of loading on this machine, I would love to be able to visit with the fellas that designed and developed this reloader. I bet they have a few stories?

Yeh, that pivot stud/bolt would be a good place to attach a matching spring but I think that pivot is on a higher plane, above the other spring mounts.
That's a stock primer block that kept unsnapping, RCBS sent me a redesigned block that is stiffer but I never installed it, just left the wire on the original.

The last piggyback I bought (I have 3) was part of an Ammo Master.
313577
Looked up the Ammo Master and it lists for $300+ but I didn't get the longer rods or die plate to make it back into an Ammo Master press. :|
I paid $100 for everything in that pic!! :bigsmyl2:

It didn't index well, so I tracked that problem to be the shell plate shoulder bolt being bent.
Luckily, I had a spare and didn't think RCBS would have one and never asked.
.

[Kenstone]

Quick and slick Ken,

I was kind of stuck thinking I needed to get a matching spring like the rest of the stations. I might try and swing one from that pivot bolt instead of drilling something new. I get tangled up in that old linkage sometimes. You should see me trying to drop bullets on at #4.

I also like your primer block reinforcement. My old high school auto shop teacher called that a "Moroso titanium alloy, custom retro refit".

After years of loading on this machine, I would love to be able to visit with the fellas that designed and developed this reloader. I bet they have a few stories?

Forgot to add...
I use a Hornady bullet feeding die in station 3 because my Lee Auto Disc powder measure also expands/flares in station 2.
The 2 risers under the powder measure are to clear the center indexing rod.

With that, I can seat in station 4 and crimp in station 5.
I have long tubes that hold 50+ bullets for the bullet feed die.
I only have to load a case and pull the lever, so only one thing for my left hand to do, and my right hand never moves off the lever.
old pic:
313578
Edit: Lee now sells bullet feeding die that could be used the way I'm using the Hornady dies. They sell bullet magazines too, but for me the long tubes work just fine.
.

[JohnForrest]

George, I just looked at the pages of my old manual. While it's 30+ years old, I have tried to be super careful with it. I can not imagine putting a machine in pieces all together and getting it going with out the "book". And I consider myself pretty handy, so congratulations.

[curiousgeorge]

JohnForrest,
I had called RCBS to get a manual, but it was a little over 2 weeks before it arrived. By then I had everything assembled and running, but had only loaded a couple of rounds because I wanted to be sure it was all put together correctly.

It was in the original box totally disassembled, except for the nylon bushing in the tool head. The picture on the box was pretty much what I went by. Amazingly there was nothing missing. Every spring, pin, screw, etc. was there rolling around loose in the box. The two boys who brought it to the house had bought it at a yard sale for practically nothing. Twenty dollars later it was mine.

Steve

[JohnForrest]

You Kentucky guys are naturally lucky.

John

[curiousgeorge]

Except when we play Iowa.

[Walks]

Have had a Piggyback since they came out. Set it up for .32S&W Long. My kids were just getting in to Cowboy Shooting. After about 5,000 rds I managed to break it. RCBS replaced it with a Piggyback II. This worked just fine. We no longer shoot Cowboy, but it's still set up for .32S&W Long. I like the little Ruger SSM 5 1/2" bbl and an old Colt Police Positive 5" bbl.
And like many others, I size/prime off the press. Been doing that since My first experience with a dillon 450.
It works well, have replaced a couple nylon bushings. Just don't slam it.

[JohnForrest]

Getting back that extra bit of travel on the primer seat stroke helped the index rod get the shell plate aligned before the primer gets pushed up into the shell plate. My flipped primers went from 10-20/100 to 3-4. What I notice now is a slight bit of play and or misalignment of the shell plate with regard to the primer seating stem.

Wondering if others have this play normally? I do have some big scratches on the rod between station 1 and 2. I think that rod is what keeps the head from rotating back clockwise. Normal or not I am starting to look for a way to tighten up that clearance. I may try and swap that rod with the back one but it looks like I have some wear on the surface of the head that slides on the inside of that rod.

I guess priming off the press is an option but that feels like giving up, especially if it can be made to run right. Up until a few 1000 ago I never saw a flipped primer?

[JohnForrest]

Getting back that extra bit of travel on the primer seat stroke helped the index rod get the shell plate aligned before the primer gets pushed up into the shell plate. My flipped primers went from 10-20/100 to 3-4. What I notice now is a slight bit of play and or misalignment of the shell plate with regard to the primer seating stem.

Wondering if others have this play normally? I do have some big scratches on the rod between station 1 and 2. I think that rod is what keeps the head from rotating back clockwise. Normal or not I am starting to look for a way to tighten up that clearance. I may try and swap that rod with the back one but it looks like I have some wear on the surface of the head that slides on the inside of that rod.

I guess priming off the press is an option but that feels like giving up, especially if it can be made to run right. Up until a few 1000 ago I never saw a flipped primer?

So just to follow up a little. I see that the support rods are really not the fine alignment here. They guide the shell plate holder to an extent but the final alignment is done with the Index Locating Pin into the Shell Plate Holder. While it aligns the Five Station Shell Plate on top, it also aligns the holder underneath. If the Holder is rotated just slightly with respect to the Shell plate, the Primer plug gets tilted or cast to one side slightly. This little cast is where I think I am getting my primers flipped or turned sideways.

Starting to look like wear on the hole through the Shell Plate Holder is the culprit in my case. The Locating Pin still has machine marks throughout. The Shell Plate Holder is cast out of something softer so I suspect it's worn over time.

I guess we will see if RCBS still makes them?

[Land Owner]

My flipped primers went from 10-20/100 to 3-4.


One (1) is too many. Have you checked that the correct "priming system" (small cup for small primers and large cup for large primers) is installed?

Has each primer been loaded in the tube correctly?

Is the correct primer tube (small v. large diameter) and transfer bar (L for large; S for small) being used?

Is the Rock Chucker handle being slowly and smoothly pulled?

Is the press firmly affixed to the bench and the bench is solid?

Trying to pin down vibration and "loose fit" issues...

[JohnForrest]

One (1) is too many. Have you checked that the correct "priming system" (small cup for small primers and large cup for large primers) is installed?

Has each primer been loaded in the tube correctly?

Is the correct primer tube (small v. large diameter) and transfer bar (L for large; S for small) being used?

Is the Rock Chucker handle being slowly and smoothly pulled?

Is the press firmly affixed to the bench and the bench is solid?

Trying to pin down vibration and "loose fit" issues...

Good ideas LO,

With me, it's usually a simple thing that I didn't realize I had overlooked.

And I admit I did go double check my primer tube size before answering. I don't think small primers will stay fed in a large primer tube anyway.

I just got off the phone with Josh at RCBS and they are sending me a new Shell Plate Holder. So I will report back how that works out.

I am starting to wonder if the indexing system, when it slightly over rotates the shell plate, puts the Index Locating Pin in a bit of a bind with the Holder and the Shell Plate? I know that my unit will do it once and a while and I see it pull that Shell plate back slightly. That would wear the Holder more than the Shell plate. Especially when I change between so many different plates.

[JohnForrest]

Well I struck out getting a new shell plate holder, they ended up being out of stock and discontinued. Since then I have found a second almost complete unit. We will see if this one is better? One odd thing, it came with a different 5 sided rod that rotates the shell plate. Of all things it had a different twist that doesnt advance the shell plate the whole 1/5 of a turn. Rcbs sent me a new one with the right twist. Wondering what it was? The explanation they gave was it was designed to slow the spin rate to keep from spilling powder and that my one way bearing was worn? Well see, they sent that new part too. The odd part is besides having a slower twist it looks to me like it doesnt twist enough. I wonder if it's out of a newer 6 station machine?

[Kenstone]

Well I struck out getting a new shell plate holder, they ended up being out of stock and discontinued. Since then I have found a second almost complete unit. We will see if this one is better? One odd thing, it came with a different 5 sided rod that rotates the shell plate. Of all things it had a different twist that doesnt advance the shell plate the whole 1/5 of a turn. Rcbs sent me a new one with the right twist. Wondering what it was? The explanation they gave was it was designed to slow the spin rate to keep from spilling powder and that my one way bearing was worn? Well see, they sent that new part too. The odd part is besides having a slower twist it looks to me like it doesnt twist enough. I wonder if it's out of a newer 6 station machine?

I had not read your previous post until today and was going to suggest you change the nylon indexer bushing, not the bearing...

I always start every loading session wiping a thin coat of lube on the index rod and use a needle luber on the one way bearing.

I don't remember any 6 station RCBS presses and the current presses are 5 and 7 stations with a completely different index mechanism.

I think having less of a twisted index rod allows the index locating pin complete the index.
If the shell plate over indexes, with the locating pin pulling it back, would put stress on the one way bearing.

You could remove the index rod and hand index the shell plate, while loading, and see what problems change.
That would be an indicator to what the problem is, the rod, the bearing, or the nylon index bushing.
good luck on your quest,
.
Edit: in addition, I suggest you remove the shell plate and check the operation of the detent ball and spring.
Edit2: here's a pic of the ram held up off the locating pin by an empty primer tray. :rolleyes:
I can hand index the shell plate to clear it or check/feel the indexing:
316957
316958
jmo,
.

[Patrick L]

I was given a used one back in the late 80s/early 90s and have used it faithfully with darn few issues since. That includes 1000s of .223 rifle rounds. I have had no issues priming on the press, mine has never given me any problems.

Keep extra nylon hex bushings (free from RCBS) in your spare parts kit. I've changed mine maybe twice in 30+ years.

I'm not exaggerating, I've easily got 25-30K rounds+ through mine (and remember I got it USED). I liked it so much I bought an Ammo Master Auto for .30-06 and similar rounds that are too long for the PB. It's the same system just longer.

[JohnForrest]

Well, the old saying, "fix one thing at a time so you know what the culprit was" bit me here. I put a new base on, tightened up the indexing pin, adjusted the stop on the primer slide, put in new indexing ball, removed a couple burrs on the inside of the shell plate. haven't had a primer flip since. Could be I just cleaned everything real good? I suspect it was the burrs from a repriming pin . Sorry it took me so long to wrap up my saga here. I hate it when threads just leave me hanging after a bunch of back and forth.

I got a second Piggyback unit for parts and it was so complete, decided to get it going as my "other primer sized" press. Between the two, I can't keep straight what all is going on repair wise.

Thinking about starting a Piggyback parts "junk yard"