Question About Primers - Need Help

[Dipperman]

I have been looking for some small rifle primers for reloading my 222 Remington and not having much luck in finding any. For the time being, ( forgive me) I am still shooting J-word bullets in the 222. I have found some Small Rifle Magnum primers, which are not called for with the powder I use, usually IMR 4198 Could these be substituted for regular primers if I stay on the starting load side of the load chart? The other thought I had was to try using Small Pistol Magnum primers. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with either of these ideas, or would I be better off to just buy some powder that calls for a Small Rifle Magnum primer like BL-C(2)?

Thanks in advance.

Dipperman

[Boerrancher]

You will be fine with the Small Rifle Mag primers. Please do not use Small pistol primers in your rifle this can be dangerous as the primer cup is not as strong and can fail releasing pressurized gas into the action of the rifle.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[dale2242]

The only rifle cartridge , that I know of, you can use small pistol primers in is the 22 Hornet. The working pressures of the Hornet are about the same as magnum pistol cartridges. I use Federal small pistol primers in all my hornet loads, both in my Ruger #3 and my 10" Contender. These are standard small pistol primers. I have not tried small pistol magnum in the Hornet, but they should work fine. I would adjust your starting loads down some , in case pressures are greater with the SPM primers---dale

[Hip's Ax]

If the small rifle magnum primers your looking at are Wolf the mix is still standard and not magnum. The Russians misunderstood and thought magnum primers just had thicker cups and didn't realize that we expect more output as well.

I just bought 5000 Wolf SRM primers to use in my AR 15 223 match loads. The thicker cups are desireable for semi autos and I couldn't find any of my favorite CCI BR4's.

If they are not Wolf then of course you would have to consider the increased output of the magnum primers.

[Wayne Smith]

I don't imagine using small pistol primers in the 32-20 or the 25-20 would hurt much, either. I general I agree, it's a bad idea unless done very knowledgeably and with a specific purpose.

[missionary5155]

Good morning If my thinker is working correctly... Preassure is Pressure whether in a rifle or a pistol. I HAVE used Large Pistol Primers in some mild Cast Boolit loads in my SKS . Load was about 17-18 grains ACC 1680. Gave no HIGH pressure indicators. BUT I also started the whole loading process over with a minimum charge of A 1680. I would NOT use a LPP in amax load with the same powder. But I see no problem loading up to and NOT passing the max load Pressure listed in lets say the 44 mag pistol section of loading manuals. After all Pressure is pressure. If I am wrong then let me know where. I have not reached the place where my thinker is self absorbed into itself.
I have not tried small primers this way... but again pressure is preasure. If a SPP will take 35,000 psi then why could it not absorb 35,000 psi in a rifle case.
There is a problem I can see... whether a Pistol Primer will reliably ignite slow burning rifle powders. That would be my major concern after considering the pressure factor.
There may be hieght difference between Pistol and RIfle primers so ignition again could be a problem with certain styles of firing pins... but again a little testing would verify that.

[mike in co]

If the small rifle magnum primers your looking at are Wolf the mix is still standard and not magnum. The Russians misunderstood and thought magnum primers just had thicker cups and didn't realize that we expect more output as well.

I just bought 5000 Wolf SRM primers to use in my AR 15 223 match loads. The thicker cups are desireable for semi autos and I couldn't find any of my favorite CCI BR4's.

If they are not Wolf then of course you would have to consider the increased output of the magnum primers.

i'm not quite sure who helped you with your choices.
but i thought i would throw in some info.

for 223/semi auto use , wolf makes a unique primer. it is lited as a 223, small rifle primer. it has a slightly thicker cup, but not a full mil cup, it also has a slightly hotter charge, so when using these primers with any "known or listed load" start lower and work up.

you should have passed on the mag for 223 and bought the specific primer for the 223's.

i have sold some where between 150 and 200 k in wolf primers in the last 6 weeks.
mike in co

[Dale53]

Using large pistol primers for full loads in a rifle are NOT a good idea. They are shorter than rifle primers and this can give them a running start (primers back out when fired) and can actually damage the breech face of your rifle. Further, the face of the primer is deeper in the cartridge that CAN cause misfires. In addition, they have softer and thinner cups that can pierce releasing gas into the rifle or etching the breech face.

All together, not a good idea.

Dale53

[azrednek]

Substituting mag primers for standard is ok providing you do as mentioned, "if I stay on the starting load side of the load chart". Although I can't confirm it with my own tests. Everything I've read pertaining to the difference between mag and standard primers is burn duration. The mag primer does not burn at a higher temperature but burns for a slightly longer duration.

Recently I subbed mag primers in my 223 condom loads using the same powder charge I've used for years. My load is apx 90% of max but by far more accurate in my AR-15. The accuracy and where it hit the target were the same as standard primers and I didn't see any signs of high pressure.

I have to agree and really emphasize what the previous posters said, do not substitute by using pistol primers. Sometimes it is ok to go the other way, using rifle primers in pistol loads. Years ago both friend and I had single action revolvers. Mine was Dakota brand, his was Hawes. Both apparently came from the same factory in Italy as all the parts were interchangeable. Both our revolvers had problems occasionally piercing primers in both hand loads and factory ammo. There was a write-up in a gun rag of another Italian made single action revolver and the author experienced the same problem. The author suggested using rifle primers, we tried and they worked just fine.

[Hip's Ax]

i'm not quite sure who helped you with your choices.
but i thought i would throw in some info.

for 223/semi auto use , wolf makes a unique primer. it is lited as a 223, small rifle primer. it has a slightly thicker cup, but not a full mil cup, it also has a slightly hotter charge, so when using these primers with any "known or listed load" start lower and work up.

you should have passed on the mag for 223 and bought the specific primer for the 223's.

i have sold some where between 150 and 200 k in wolf primers in the last 6 weeks.
mike in co

Mike,
One of the websites had Wolf 223 primers for sale, I did briefly wonder what they were but since the other website was echoing what I had been reading, that the Wolf SRM was the one for AR match loads I just bought those. It took some digging to find out what the 223 primers were, they are not listed on the Wolf website but if you knock around enough in there you can download the catalog and they are indeed listed in there.

A friend of mine (German Salazar) did some wonderful investigation on SR primer output and repeatability and (in his opinion, see Precision Shooting magazine a couple of months back) he found a correlation where the lower the output of the primer the more repeatable the loads were. Federal 205M actually had the lowest output and were the winner but they are usually considered bad juju for semi's, so I've got 205M for my 6BR 300m rifle, and since I couldn't get CCI BR4's the data I saw on the Wolf SRM vs. the BR4 were about tied for second place so I'm OK with my choice.

I didn't choose the 223 primers because I was not aware of anyone using them and the composition is still listed as "standard" just like all the rest. Also, the Wolf 223 was not included in Salazar's test. I have, however, read about a lot of guys using WSRM in their service rifle loads with good success.

The Russian primers have been a favorite for match shooters (Palma shooters and LR shooters only at first) ever since Bob Jones imported a container full of the now famous KVB's back several years ago. His second container didn't work out so well (it was full of odds and ends and trash) so he got out of primer business. Russian primers were then briefly available under the PMC label but that didn't last long. Enter my friend Mark Trew who personally imported a full load of Russian LR, he sold off what he didn't need but eventually sold them all off because he claimed "slight gas leakage" around his primer pockets, nothing serious (and many of us were suspicious that he was running extra hot 6.5-284 loads and had stretched his pockets). Mark is now running RWS primers which are at the moment unobtainium.

In short, I did a bunch of homework on this and made my choice and will now sleep in the bed I've made. I also bought 10,000 Wolf LR for my Palma, NRA Long Range and 3x600 prone guns, the Wolf won Salazar's LR primer test hands down.

Thank You for offering the information though, I love shooters, everybody is always so free with their information. Shooting is truly a Gentleman's sport.

[mike in co]

hip, since we went off topic...
german is a great guy, i missed the article. i sell only wolf based on the pmc history with br and long range shooters.
i personally shoot br2/4 and 205m/210m/215m in my match rifles. i guess i should try some of my own medicene and try the wolf lr.
thanks
mike

[Hip's Ax]

Yeah, I did wander a bit. Apologies to the original poster. :oops:

I've got about any primer you could name in decent quantity. I've had a long love affair with Federal 205M, 210M and 215M but I have new things on the horizon and didn't want to put in a bunch of time on load development when I have a less than ample supply of a given primer lot.

I've got about 2000 BR4's left and will use those for my 200/300/600 loads that are already developed and for my 100 yd reduced loads too for the same reason. For 200/300 reduced matches I got a seperate lot of brass (so nothing gets mixed up) and figured I should get another lot of primers, that led to the Wolf SRM purchase when the BR4's were either elusive or far too dear. If the Wolf's don't work out well I can switch. I do however feel rather confident that the Wolfs will do just fine. We will both know as soon as its warm enough to shoot outside again.

[RugerFan]

. Everything I've read pertaining to the difference between mag and standard primers is burn duration. The mag primer does not burn at a higher temperature but burns for a slightly longer duration.


CCI advertises that their small rifle magnum primers burn 23% hotter.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers_prod.aspx?id=29

[Dipperman]

Gentlemen,

Although the thread did wander a bit, it was interesting and informative. I lucked out and found a supply of standard small rifle primers, so I am set for a while.

I want to say thank you to everyone who responded to my question. This board and the people on it are the best.

Thanks again.

Dipperman