38 special wadcutter

[Jniedbalski]

I loaded up some lee 148 gr wadcutter in 38 special. I loaded like Outpost75 recommended doing. I deprimed the cases cleaned the primer pockets, primed the non sized cases and used the lee wadcutter the non tumble lube one. I lubed with 45/45/10 tumble lube and loaded them non sized at .360 right out of the mold. They shot extremely good loaded this way . I sorted out the thick brass cases when loading. I could tell about 1/30 where had to seat .thick cases even after using my Noe expander. The non sized cases the Noe expander never really touched the brass . Only the thick brass did it size ,expand.This worked really well for .360 wadcutters. I used 3.5 gr of bullseye for the load.They shoot like match ammo thanks outpost for the tip. I also didint seat them all the way flush with the case. I left them as long as I could and still fit in the cylinder. I crimped actually in the lube grove below the crimp grove.

[Land Owner]

Can you add a link to Outpost75's recommendation (or are those them - as paraphrased). I might like to try that in the wife's Charter Arms revolver. We are currently in powder/boolit combination trials for what does and doesn't work for her.

[Outpost75]

Process is simple enough. Decap, inside deburr and lightly flare case mouths only. Bullet should be light friction fit in unsized case, so that it cannot fall deeper into the case. Prime, charge powder and seat to depth only, then profile - size loaded rounds and crimp using Lee Factory Crimp die or Redding profile crimp. As - cast and unsized bullet of .360-.362 is best. Bullet will be sized by compression inside the case during the profile crimp operation. This is the same way factory wadcutter are loaded. Knurl at midpoint of case body positions bullet in case. In fired brass you use a fat bullet.

[gwpercle]

Can you add a link to Outpost75's recommendation (or are those them - as paraphrased). I might like to try that in the wife's Charter Arms revolver. We are currently in powder/boolit combination trials for what does and doesn't work for her.

For the wife , if she's like mine , you can start out with 2.5 grains of BE and work up to the 3.5 grains .
Mine , wife and revolver, like 2.7 grains of bullseye under a 148 gr. cast wadcutter for target shooting , nice pleasant load and accurate to boot .
Gary

[hc18flyer]

I loaded and shot a bunch that way too! Works like a charm! Now I just have to find a better way to fix old eye balls! hc18flyer

[hc18flyer]

I think I my load was 3.2 Bullseye and seated in the top line groove. I think I use a Redding profile crimp.

[Jniedbalski]

I used the lee factory crimp die also. Most of the brass I could insert the bullet almost half way into the case by hand and used the press to finish seating the bullet. It worked out really good this way. Iam never going to size my brass first. Unless they get stickey and need it. Loading this way makes for a really good wadcutter load. Very accurate

[Land Owner]

Tumble lubed. Not on my radar - I will have to read more about that and possibly get some additional supplies. I already have a bunch of 155 gr. WC's and SWC's sized (0.358") and lubed, so they probably won't work with unsized brass. No worries. I can make more...

Do you completely seat the boolit within the case - nothing but the crimp showing at the nose of the round (+/-), allowing those cases with a cannelure or knurl (maybe using only that type of case) to stop the boolit from seating deeper? I wondered what that line on the case was for...

[dverna]

Anytime you can shoot an unsized bullet, that is a big plus in my book. Not having to size the case is less of an attraction to me as it saves no time. It might increase case life, but I expect not applying a crimp has more significant effect on case life.

One of my "projects" is to shoot unsized 9mm bullets (.358), with BLL, in my .38's for plinking loads, and use the same bullet in the 9mm's. If the unsized bullet is too large and/or leads in the 9mm's, I would lube (with 2500+) and size to .357. My thinking is the 9mm case does an even better job of "sizing" bullets during the seating process.

It is great is see stuff like this that allows a more efficient way to produce ammunition. I like simple.

[Jniedbalski]

Tumble lubed. Not on my radar - I will have to read more about that and possibly get some additional supplies. I already have a bunch of 155 gr. WC's and SWC's sized (0.358") and lubed, so they probably won't work with unsized brass. No worries. I can make more...

Do you completely seat the boolit within the case - nothing but the crimp showing at the nose of the round (+/-), allowing those cases with a cannelure or knurl (maybe using only that type of case) to stop the boolit from seating deeper? I wondered what that line on the case was for...

I have loaded my wadcutters flush with the case mouth. This time I loaded about half of them flush and half of them sticking out and crimping them in the first grease grove . I thank the ones sticking out are more accurate but need to shoot more to find out for sure.

[JimB..]

So you’re still sizing the back 80% of the bullet, the part in the case, you’re just doing it with the lee factory crimp die. The unsized front section gets sized by the cylinder throat upon firing.

Seems that brass thickness would matter because it now controls the bullet size, so do you at least sort by brand or does it not matter in practice?

Can you pull one, I’m curious about what size the FCD makes it vs the cylinder throat.

Also expect that the sizing process would squeeze all the lube down into the cartridge, but maybe not or maybe it doesn’t matter.

[Jniedbalski]

I use my factory crimp die different some times. I wanted to keep the .360 diameter bullets at .360 so I just ran the loaded shell up into the fcd just enuf to take the flair or bell out of the case mouth. That’s it then used my regular bullet seater and crimper to finish the crimp. The fcd I had to use full length on the cases that the bullets where hard to seat. They where to big to fit the cylinder thick brass. I can tell when putting the bullets in the case thin or thick brass. If they seat just by hand almost half way as most did thin brass. Some where a little snug thicker brass and I separated them. The ones that I couldent seat by hand and where harder to seat with my press is thick brass. I separated them and full length fcd them because they would not fit the cylinder. I could separate them by head stamp or brand but I find the way I do it it’s easier and I can tell thin or thick brass just by seating the bullet. It’s hard for me to see the tiny markings on the brass and time consuming for me . After I sorted them this way I did notice I was getting the same head stamp/ brands on the tight ones when I sorted them. As for tumble lube I let it dry a couple days before loading. I pulled a few after loading to check the diameter and the lube was untouched still good.still at .360. I also used the fcd on the .360 bullets with thin cases on a few and pulled them to check . The thin brass ones didint size down only the thick brass ones did.

[Jniedbalski]

Also I can tell thick brass or thin just by using my NOE expander. The thin brass it doesn’t touch the cases at all wad cutter brass. The thicker brass I can tell just by how the expander goes in and out of the case. The thick brass I really can tell because it’s a lot harder on my single stage lee press. And I do sort them this way . It’s amazing after Iam done and sort them the same brands or head stamps show up. I don’t even have to get my reading glasses out

[gunther]

Will a RCBS taper crimp die work as well for this purpose?

[Jniedbalski]

I don’t see why not. You might have to trim the cases all the same Length. I usally don’t for my 38’s just load and shoot

[Outpost75]

Will a RCBS taper crimp die work as well for this purpose?

A taper crimp die reduces the case mouth only, and does not uniform the entire loaded round profile.
Using the taper crimp only with unsized cases the rounds may not chamber.

[Gundogx2]

May have to try this one never thought of loading wad cutters that way


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tazman]

I have loaded my wadcutters flush with the case mouth. This time I loaded about half of them flush and half of them sticking out and crimping them in the first grease grove . I thank the ones sticking out are more accurate but need to shoot more to find out for sure.

I tested that a few years ago by seating some so they just barely fit into the cylinder of my 38 special revolvers. Nearly flush with the front of the cylinder.
The results were, yes, they were more accurate. Apparently, having part of the boolit riding in the cylinder throat improves alignment enough to make a difference.
The issue was, since the boolits were sized to a tight slip fit for the cylinder throat, I had to push each cartridge into the cylinder individually. I could not use a speedloader.
Slow fire was great. Rapid fire with a reload was impossible.
In addition, all cylinder throats must be the same size for this to work.
You will need to decide how you want to use those loads.

This is why the semi auto 38 special pistols are so accurate. No chance for the boolit to get misaligned during firing.

[onelight]

Has anyone tried a bullet like a Lyman 358429 loaded unsized into a 357 case and crimped over the front driving band starting with 38 special data for that bullet , with the process Outpost 75 describes ?
I don't have any cast that have not been sized and lubed or I would go try it myself.

[tazman]

The only issue with loading unsized boolits is you are letting the cylinder throat do the sizing for you.
This may not be a consistent process. I prefer sizing to throat size because it makes for a more consistent process. Usually, it is also more accurate.

As always, your gun may have it's own ideas what it prefers. Listen to it.

[onelight]

The only issue with loading unsized boolits is you are letting the cylinder throat do the sizing for you.
This may not be a consistent process. I prefer sizing to throat size because it makes for a more consistent process. Usually, it is also more accurate.

As always, your gun may have it's own ideas what it prefers. Listen to it.
I may have misunderstood the process , I was thinking the sizing was being done with the profile crimp die or FCD after seating so with the front driving band in the case like a WC it would get sized by the crimp die like the WC , and then be sized again (depending on cylinder throat size ) when it passed through the throat.
But would need to make sure if crimping over the front driving band and post sizing that the bullet would be secure enough to not risk setback when handling and loading with no crimp grove to secure the bullet.
Never mind I can't think of any reason to load a swc like this :)

[tazman]

I may have misunderstood the process , I was thinking the sizing was being done with the profile crimp die or FCD after seating so with the front driving band in the case like a WC it would get sized by the crimp die like the WC , and then be sized again (depending on cylinder throat size ) when it passed through the throat.
But would need to make sure if crimping over the front driving band and post sizing that the bullet would be secure enough to not risk setback when handling and loading with no crimp grove to secure the bullet.
Never mind I can't think of any reason to load a swc like this :)

The FCD may or may not resize the boolit. It depends on the individual FCD die and it's dimensions. Mine would not size the boolit down.
Since the boolit is oversize, it will get sized down going through the cylinder throats when fired. If all your cylinder throats are the same size, well and good. If not, there are some inconsistently sized boolits entering the barrel. This may or may not effect accuracy.
This applies to wadcutters as well as SWC boolits.

I will admit, I am not a good enough shot to make use of the difference without a rest. If you are loading for best accuracy, it is something to consider. I try to eliminate as many variables as I can from the cartridge for target loads.
For practice and plinking ammo, not so much.

[gwpercle]

I have loaded my wadcutters flush with the case mouth. This time I loaded about half of them flush and half of them sticking out and crimping them in the first grease grove . I thank the ones sticking out are more accurate but need to shoot more to find out for sure.

My accuracy test have indicated that cast wc boolits when seated to and crimped in the provided crimp groove do better than all the way in flush seated as you do soft swaged HBWC .
Also I find Lyman # 358432 - 160 grain to be the most accurate cast wadcutter .
NOE makes an improved version of the Lyman design that's a real tack driver...in case anyone's interested . Cast this one with a nice NOE hollow point and you have a Sweet Manstopper Design .
Gary

[tazman]

Also I find Lyman # 358432 - 160 grain to be the most accurate cast wadcutter .
NOE makes an improved version of the Lyman design that's a real tack driver...in case anyone's interested . Cast this one with a nice NOE hollow point and you have a Sweet Manstopper Design .
Gary

I agree with that. I have the NOE mold and cast it as a hollow point. I also have the original Lyman 358432 in 148 grains and it is also a great design.

[David2011]

A taper crimp die reduces the case mouth only, and does not uniform the entire loaded round profile.
Using the taper crimp only with unsized cases the rounds may not chamber.

This makes no sense to me. A taper crimp smoothly tapers the case over a longish slope. I think it would indeed uniform the rounds. I don’t taper crimp revolver rounds but I’ve loaded literally over a ton of semi-auto boolits. My favorite .38 round is my Saeco 148 gr wadcutter over 2.7 grains of Bullseye but it’s always roll crimped.

[onelight]

I know what the Lee carbide factory crimp dies do and I use them all the time . I don't think I understand what the Redding profile crimp die does , can any one explain how the profile die is different than a standard crimp die ?
I did not get much of an explanation from the Redding site.

[JoeJames]

I have been casting my button nose wc's with a very old double cavity Lee mold which throws them at .358" and they weigh about 150 grains. Not water quenched, and sitting on 2.7 grains of Bullseye (Old NRA recommended load of Bullseye per the NRA Handloading Guide). They were tumble lubed with a 50-50 mix of LLA and mineral spirits, and at .358, I really did not think sizing them would do anything good, and probably a whole lot of bad.

280590

[44magLeo]

The Redding profile die has a regular crimp section , just behind the crimp is a tighter section that keeps the case from bulging when over crimped.
This often happens when cases vary in length. With the crimp set for shorter cases then longer cases get over crimped.
So if you don't trim your cases then the profile die may help.
On the Lee FCD there are two kinds for straight walled pistol cases. The carbide FCD and the Collet FCD. THe Carbide version uses a standard crimp but has a crabide ring in the mouth of the die so if there are bulges they carbide rings sizes them away. I have had poor results using thius type of die with the over size boolits my 44 Mag Marlin likes. After seating the boolit the carbide ring sizes the case enough to size the boolit as well. With a standard size boolit for most revelovers it isn't such a problem.
The Collet FCD has no carbide ring and uses a collet to crimp the case. This crimp is controled by the shell hlder hitting the bottom of the die as the collet closes. Case length has nothing to do with the crimp. It can't size the bullet, it justs crimps the case.
The regular crimp is controled by the case mouth hitting the crimp shoulder. The case length is critical to crimp.
Leo

[tazman]

I have been casting my button nose wc's with a very old double cavity Lee mold which throws them at .358" and they weigh about 150 grains. Not water quenched, and sitting on 2.7 grains of Bullseye (Old NRA recommended load of Bullseye per the NRA Handloading Guide). They were tumble lubed with a 50-50 mix of LLA and mineral spirits, and at .358, I really did not think sizing them would do anything good, and probably a whole lot of bad.

280590

In your case, I would definitely say "It ain't broke so don't fix it."
Then again, a contender is not a revolver. Not as many potential problems as a revolver. Only one chamber and throat to worry about.
Your load would probably work just fine for 90% of the 48/357 handguns out there.

[catboat]

An overlooked load is a 148 grain, .358" hard cast, double -ended, solid base , hard cast wadcutter at a MV of 850+ fps. It is called the "full charge wadcutter."

It meets the FBI penetration standard.

Read about it here: ( author Ed Harris was a design engineer at Ruger)
https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

[45DUDE]

No one has reported what group size they are shooting with a wad cutter <dewc-bnwc>not a hbwc-- at 25 yards 10 shots bench with open sights. I have mine doing around 920fps with 38 cases and American Select.

[David2011]

Out of my 6” Colt Trooper Mk III I get 9 ring and better accuracy with wadcutters from a Saeco mold over 2.7 grains of Bullseye at 25 yards. My casting mentor and I shot the numbers on the targets at 7 yards back in the ‘80s, when my eyes were better and he was still with us.

Off of sandbags they were 10 ring/x ring accurate.

[tazman]

An overlooked load is a 148 grain, .358" hard cast, double -ended, solid base , hard cast wadcutter at a MV of 850+ fps. It is called the "full charge was cutter."

It meets the FBI penetration standard.

Read about it here:
https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

I haven't overlooked them at all. In fact, the loads in the cylinder of my defense revolvers are full wadcutter loads. The backup loads in my speedloaders are something else to improve the ability to reload but the first shots will be with wadcutters.
I fully trust the accuracy I get with those boolits.

Lucky gunner did some gel testing with Winchester Match wadcutters and the results are here......https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

Very consistent and reliable.

[onelight]

The Redding profile die has a regular crimp section , just behind the crimp is a tighter section that keeps the case from bulging when over crimped.
This often happens when cases vary in length. With the crimp set for shorter cases then longer cases get over crimped.

Leo


Thanks for the reply.
If you are crimping a .360 bullet in an unsized case , does any of the profile crimp die other than the crimp portion at the mouth of case touch the case ? Is it changing the case and also bullet dia. below the mouth ?

[Thumbcocker]

I have been casting my button nose wc's with a very old double cavity Lee mold which throws them at .358" and they weigh about 150 grains. Not water quenched, and sitting on 2.7 grains of Bullseye (Old NRA recommended load of Bullseye per the NRA Handloading Guide). They were tumble lubed with a 50-50 mix of LLA and mineral spirits, and at .358, I really did not think sizing them would do anything good, and probably a whole lot of bad.

280590

Hard to argue with those results.

[gwpercle]

No one has reported what group size they are shooting with a wad cutter <dewc-bnwc>not a hbwc-- at 25 yards 10 shots bench with open sights. I have mine doing around 920fps with 38 cases and American Select.

38 Special Cast NOE 360-160-WC (Lyman #358432) crimped in crimp groove .
2.8 grains Bullseye , indoor range @75 feet = 25 yards
Model 64 S&W , 4 inch barrel , Clark Custom Guns trigger job and Millet SP-1 red dot sight mounted .
This revolver was set up for NRA Bullseye Match shooting about 20 years ago .
14 shots make a one ragged hole group - 1 " wide X 1 1/2" tall , measured out to out of holes . One stinking shot I pulled ...1/2" out of the group ... seems like there is always one that messes up the group!!!
shot standing but resting my revolver across my shooting box , wrist supported with a rolled up towel . If I can get elevation grouping tightened up a little ... I was 70 when I shot this ...eyes are aging fast and can no longer see open iron sights...the red dot is getting hard to see !
This is what I can do group wise with cast 38 wadcutters ...hope info helps.
Gary

[45DUDE]

Thank you all but I am talking 38 special heavy 900+ fps wad cutter loads with open sights. Not powder puff.

[tazman]

5 grains of CFE Pistol under a Lyman 358432 will get you there. This load shoots as accurately as factory match or jacketed does in my revolvers.
I can't claim any specific group size because my skills are not good enough to shoot tiny groups at distances beyond about 15 yards with any handgun.

[45DUDE]

tasman--I have that in a 4 cavity but no CFE. Plenty of others. The H&G bnwc has the best 900+ fps group so for. Thanks.