Leading in Lipsey's Flattop .44 Special

[Horseman]

I have a Lipsey’s (Ruger) .44 Special Flattop and I’m having quite a time trying to solve my leading issues. The gun slugs at .4295 and cylinder throats are a uniform .432. I’ve tried both the Lyman 429421 sized to .430 and .431 (the .431 requiring just a slight push to pass through the throats) and Accurate Molds’ AM432250K sized to .431. Two alloys, one is straight COWW and the other consisting of 10 lbs COWW, 1 lb Linotype, and 2 oz tin. I’ve tried several loads using Unique, Universal Clays, and Titegroup. I have not tried 2400 yet as I’m not looking for hunting loads for this gun, just casual shooting. Loads ranged from mild to about as much as I want for range fun. 6.8 of Unique “feels” about where I want to be and I felt should be enough to provide sufficient obturation with my alloys. Everything I have tried has left significant lead deposits in the barrel from the throat forward about 1-2”. I have to use a piece of copper chore boy over a mop with solvent to scrub it out. When cleaning with a tight patch, I do detect some constriction at the front sight but surprisingly, none at the frame where the barrel threads in. I had planned to fire lap the gun but given the lack of thread constriction, I’m not sure that’s going to help me. For lube, I'm using Thompson's Blue Angel but just received some White Label Carnauba Blue I'm going to try as soon as the replacement die retention nut shows up for my Lyman lube sizer (my other exercise in frustration).

My next step is to have the forcing cone re-cut and polished but there’s an 18-month wait at my local smith who I trust to do the job right. I’m hoping maybe someone here, possibly another flattop owner has encountered and dealt with this issue and might have a suggestion for something else to try while I wait for the call from my gunsmith.

Thanks in advance!

[rockrat]

You might possibly have thread choke because of where the barrel screws into the frame. Might be slight, but still affect results. Happens often. I believe a bit of firelapping might help if there is any choke and possibly down by your sight. When I bought a pair of Vaqueros in 357 for cowboy shooting, I had leading, but not as bad as yours. I took JB compound to the barrels and lapped them a bit, maybe 30 strokes. At the end, it was a lot easier to run a patch down the bore and the leading quit.
Also, try your boolits at .432" first and see what happens.

[onelight]

My 45 flattop did have frame restriction and fire lapping did help it a lot and left the bore very smooth mine is stainless and I think a shot about 60 lapping rounds cleaning every 6 took all day and I may have stopped a little early but it is much better.
My 44 special flat top has a little restriction but not near as much . But eventually I will fire lap it also it makes the bore really slick.

[green mountain boy]

i cant help much, but perhaps use a softer lead, it might fill out better. i have used mostly lees alox lube thinned way down....but that is in a 10" contender with 44 special loads at 812 fps..it works well in it.

[Bazoo]

Brass sizing your bullets down below bore diameter?

[DougGuy]

Too hard of an alloy I bet. 50/50+2% (50% COWW + 50% soft lead + 2% tin) is really really good in Ruger handgun rifling, regardless of caliber it just works. Sounds like your gun is exceptional in it's dimensions, no reason for leading, those Lipseys guns are the pick of the litter. I would try softer alloy, soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail, and soft lube, sized for a light drag fit in the throats.

[gwpercle]

If there is no restriction ... Your alloy is too hard . Go with a 50-50 mix of COWW and Soft lead and don't water drop them . Use a good soft lube like a Lithium - Beeswax or Alox - Beeswax .
Softer boolit , softer lube and try my pet 429421 44 special load of 6.5 grains Unique .
Believe it or not ... a soft lube is very important and I've never had leading with Lithi-Bee lube in handgun loads .
If you are getting leading from the forcing cone forward ... that sounds like a restriction at the frame . You can get a kit and Fire-Lap it yourself .
Lyman sizer ... did you cross thread the retaining nut ? ... be very careful and order two replacements as they are super easy to bugger up .
Gary

[376Steyr]

+1 on a much softer alloy and soft lube. I wasted a lot of money and time shooting undersized, rock-hard commercial-cast bullets, which seemed to be lubed with Crayola crayons, over 7.5 grains of Unique in my S&W 44 Special. I got lots of leading and pathetic accuracy. My only excuse is I didn't know any better. You are on the right track with matching bullet size to throats. I wish somebody had told me that 30 years ago. You might want to try some White Label "50/50" or "2500+" lube.
Pulling a loaded round to see if the brass is sizing down your bullet is a good idea. Does your loaded round look like a python swallowing a pig? Modern loading dies are made to enthusiastically grip .429 jacketed bullets. That .431 bullet may be a lot skinnier after being shoved into a tight brass case.

[Horseman]

Great feedback and ideas everyone, I really appreciate it. I have eight 5-gallon pails of COWW but no soft lead so I'll have to hunt some down. I was hoping pure COWW would be soft enough as the economies are great. I just received 10 sticks of Carnauba Blue so I'll give it a try and order something softer as a next step if needed. I'm not getting the "pig in a python" appearance (great analogy by the way) but I'm sure my crimp is way heavier than needed. I'm accustomed to a heavy crimp on my .45 Colt Bisley hunting loads running hot on H-110 but didn't think about the adverse affect of using that crimp on these loads. I'll try a light crimp and see what that does for me.

Again, thank you to all who took the time to reply.

[onelight]

If the bullet has a crimp groove I put a good crimp on it but if your neck expander does not bring the case within .002 of bullet diameter you might want a larger expander particularly with soft bullets .
But I would try them with what you have first you may not need the oversize expander.

[Horseman]

A couple updates and answers to questions that have been asked. I did try simply not crimping to see if my heavy crimp was contributing. Not surprisingly, it made no difference. Still heavy leading after only 8 shots. I am loading with a Dillon RL550B so my expander is Dillon’s standard .44 expander/powder die funnel. My measurement of the expander (using a digital dial caliper – don’t have a micrometer) shows .4260”. My bullets “as-cast” with COWW alloy are .4325”. Sized bullets are .4310”, and after loading and crimping in the crimp groove (Keith-style 250 grain bullet), an inertia-pulled bullet still measures .4310”. As near as I can tell, all my measurements are about right where they should be. The bullets are bulging the case ever so slightly (not surprising with the .4260 expander) but it does not appear the bullets are being sized by the case. As several have noted, my issues is likely too hard of a bullet. I found some ingots of unknown alloy that appear to be very soft so I will experiment with a 50/50 mix with my COWW plus a bit of tin. I also discovered a 30-lb box of stained glass lead scraps that were given to me years ago. These appear to be pretty soft so I may try that as well. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone who has used the lead used by stained glass folks – perhaps it’s a “known” alloy.

[mdi]

Are you measuring the throat ID with the caliper's small ID jaws? This may be the reason the diameters appear so small. Unless the jaws have a sharp knife edge the "flats" on the jaw surface don't fit the entire inside radius and gives a smaller measurement...

[Bazoo]

When you measure your bullets, especially a pulled bullet, how are you positioning the calipers? Ive seen folk measure lengthwise. That will not tell you anything. It's the rear driving band that will get sized down, and the middle band will remain the same size.

Nothing wrong with using calipers provided you have a feel for them. My mic only confirmed that my calipers and feel for them are correct. I use the mic occasionally but the calipers are sufficient for most things.

[Horseman]

I'm using the larger flats on the calipers and taking my bullet measurement at the rear driving band. On the throats, I use the tips of the inside measurement part of the caliper and take a number of measurements to get an average toward the top end which I assume to be the actual diameter. For this particular gun, I had sent it to a smith for some other work and he slugged the bore and opened the throats slightly for a good match with a couple sample bullets I sent (they hang up toward the rear driving band but are easily pushed through). He provided the measurements I quoted above (.4295 bore and .432 throats).

[Larry Gibson]

A couple updates and answers to questions that have been asked. I did try simply not crimping to see if my heavy crimp was contributing. Not surprisingly, it made no difference. Still heavy leading after only 8 shots. I am loading with a Dillon RL550B so my expander is Dillon’s standard .44 expander/powder die funnel. My measurement of the expander (using a digital dial caliper – don’t have a micrometer) shows .4260”. My bullets “as-cast” with COWW alloy are .4325”. Sized bullets are .4310”, and after loading and crimping in the crimp groove (Keith-style 250 grain bullet), an inertia-pulled bullet still measures .4310”. As near as I can tell, all my measurements are about right where they should be. The bullets are bulging the case ever so slightly (not surprising with the .4260 expander) but it does not appear the bullets are being sized by the case. As several have noted, my issues is likely too hard of a bullet. I found some ingots of unknown alloy that appear to be very soft so I will experiment with a 50/50 mix with my COWW plus a bit of tin. I also discovered a 30-lb box of stained glass lead scraps that were given to me years ago. These appear to be pretty soft so I may try that as well. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone who has used the lead used by stained glass folks – perhaps it’s a “known” alloy.

Horseman

All that indicates the problem is not where you are looking.

Add 2% tin to your COWWs. That alloy will cast much better bullets and will prevent "antimonal wash" which is many times confused with "leading".

Sell or trade the lubes you are using, as that's really where the problem is, for some White label NRA 50/50, 2500+ or BAC. I've used all three lubes on thousands of 44 magnum loads (in 44 SPL power up through full magnum loads) using 429421s and 44-250-KTs along with commercial "hard" cast of numerous manufacturer. I've used those lubes on bullets sized .429 up through .431 and have never had "leading" in a multitude of revolvers, rifles and single shots.

Sometimes on this and other forums we over think the problem and get so wrapped around the axle we miss the real problem and it's solution.

[oldhenry]

+1 on the BAC

[white eagle]

have you thought of powder coating I have the same gun and pc
all my boolits never have any lead build up like I did when I used
plain old lube no matter what kind I tried I always got leading
give it a try

[gwpercle]

The stained glass lead pieces are called Lead Came ...and I have no idea why but the stuff is about as pure a soft lead as you can get . Excellant source of soft lead . Obtain all you can, I got some from a stained glass shop and use it with clip on wheel weights 50 / 50 .

Is there a constriction at the frame / forcing cone area ... where the barrel screws in ?
That will cause you a leading problem .
Gary

[ABJ]

Horseman, I took your alloy #'s and plugged into the alloy calculator.
The calculator list coww as .3% tin and 2.6% antimony so that is the first variable as well as the lino, but it don't matter that much for this discussion. Using your numbers of 10 lbs coww, 1 lb of lino and 2oz or .125 lbs of tin, your alloy should be
94.6 lead
1.75 tin
3.42 antimony
Based on experience I do not consider that too hard for 44 special unless your velocity and pressure are so low as to not bump up a 431 into a 432 cylinder. That is the first thing I would consider and if possible size to 432 or load "as cast" if not larger than 432.
The lubes Larry cites are all good, my fav of his list is the BAC. I have used the carnuba blue and it's okay but I think carnuba red or BAC is better.
I have two ruger 44's, one Lipsey's flat top special and a redhawk 44 mag. Both have 432 cylinders. Both will lead like crazy with 430 boolits. The mag will stop leading with 430's when the pressure gets high enough. With Unique in the mag case it takes 9.5 grains to bump up and seal. I never tried 430 in the special because I didn't want to run high pressure loads.
If I use 432 boolits and any good lube I can download to 750ish fps with no leading in both guns. Both of mine are blued not stainless. I think your alloy is fine although I prefer closer to 2% on the tin but I wouldn't scrap the alloy you have just shoot it. I think its a boolit size problem=1 maybe a lube problem=2. solve those two things first, "one at a time and not both at the same time" so you will know cause and effect of each change. Keep us posted, we all learn from our own experiences as well as our fellow members.
Tony

[Bazoo]

You want to try some BAC lube, message me and I'll send you a couple sticks I have extra.

[Horseman]

I am humbled by the offers of help and even free lead/lube to try. Larry & ABJ, you guys have given me a lot of hope that the solutions are simpler than I had feared. My lube sizer is warming up now with some White Label Carnauba Blue (since I had already ordered a bunch of that). The replacement sizer die retaining nut for the Lyman is in the mail but I'm hopeful I can nurse the current one through a dozen or so 240 Keith's sized to .431 which I will try with 7.0 of Unique. If I'm still leading, I'll get my order into White Label for some BAC.

[mdi]

Are you measuring the throat ID with the caliper's small ID jaws? This may be the reason the diameters appear so small. Unless the jaws have a sharp knife edge the "flats" on the jaw surface don't fit the entire inside radius and gives a smaller measurement...
Horseman,
I mixed up your thread with another 44 Magnum bullet size thread. My apologies! The other thread quoted .4285" throat diameter and I guess my old mind was thinking about that when I read your thread. Sorry...

[stubshaft]

I'm thinking that there is a slight restriction where the barrel is screwed in, there was on mine. A short session firelapping took care of that.

[cowboy4evr]

He said it's leading from the forcing cone forward . It sounds like a thread choke . Go to " LBT Molds " , scroll down and find where Veral sells soft lead slugs made for pushing down a barrel , checking for tight spots , rough spots etc . They come in a pack of 10 , if I remember correctly and are inexpensive . This is where I would begin . Forget about alloy hardness , lube etc till after this inspection is completed . I once had a 45 Colt in S&W that had a .006" choke at the junction where the barrel threaded onto the frame . After firelapping the barrel , the leading problem went away , the accuracy REALLY improved . Good Luck , Regards Paul

[rockrat]

What do your boolits measure as from the mould? If .432" or .433" perhaps you could pan lube a few and load them and try them out to see if a larger boolit might be the cure.

[mdi]

You might possibly have thread choke because of where the barrel screws into the frame. Might be slight, but still affect results. Happens often. I believe a bit of firelapping might help if there is any choke and possibly down by your sight. When I bought a pair of Vaqueros in 357 for cowboy shooting, I had leading, but not as bad as yours. I took JB compound to the barrels and lapped them a bit, maybe 30 strokes. At the end, it was a lot easier to run a patch down the bore and the leading quit.
Also, try your boolits at .432" first and see what happens.


When cleaning with a tight patch, I do detect some constriction at the front sight but surprisingly, none at the frame where the barrel threads in. I had planned to fire lap the gun but given the lack of thread constriction, I’m not sure that’s going to help Apparently already considered and disregarded...

[Bazoo]

I can't feel a constriction with patch but can with a lead ball. I'd bet you have a light constriction.

You can use lead fishing sinkers in lieu of pure lead bullets to slug with.

You mentioned cutting the forcing cone, you can buy all you need from brownells for around 100 dollars. It ain't real hard, just scary cause it's unknown.

[DocSavage]

I've several Ruger revolvers both single and double action and had to fire lap them due to tight/rough spots. Worst was the Redhawks due to their very hard stainless steel barrels.

[Horseman]

Update - White Label BAC is on the way. Regardless of other changes, I believe that either their Carnauba Blue or BAC are essential changes to my arsenal when casting for these sub-1,000 fps loads. The stuff I've been using for my high-pressure hunting loads is clearly too hard, besides being a pain to use. For those that asked/suggested, I also tried a dozen loads with 7.0 Unique under as-cast .4330" generously hand-lubed with Carnauba Blue and results were no better. I think those of you recommending fire lapping are probably on the right track. I'm not discounting the suggestions of a softer alloy, but given my supply of COWW and other feedback on my alloy being OK, I want to exhaust all avenues toward getting a WW + Tin alloy to work before I go there. I've got the supplies to fire-lap so will try throwing 24-30 properly treated Beartooth fire lapping bullets down the bore and see if things start to improve.

[ABJ]

Horseman, I agree with your current thinking although if it were mine I would like to slug the barrel again paying close attention when you get down to the threads to feel any restriction. If none then I would look under a 10x glass or printer's loop at the forcing cone. Same solution for both problems just less lapping bullets if it is just a rough forcing cone. Or a forcing cone reamer from Brownells.
Another poster said he can't feel a restriction with a patch and neither can I. If you have a pure lead muzzleloading round ball around .454 or .457 is about perfect drove in the muzzle and and push with a short piece of dowel rod. once it clears the muzzle about an inch or so you should be able to push the dowel rod with hand pressure.
Keep us posted,
Tony

[onelight]

I can feel them with a patch but you need a clean barrel and a tight fitting patch on a jag you can definitely feel them better , slugging than with a patch . If you can feel it with the patch you know you have some restriction if you don't feel it with a patch , you may still have some :)

[Horseman]

Well, I slugged the bore as several suggested and sure enough, tight at the front sight, easy trip down the bore, and very tight through the threads (relative to the rest of the bore). I couldn't believe the difference - even after knowing it was there I tried the tight patch again and the restriction was barely detectable. Thanks to all of you that have been encouraging me to slug it.

It may be next week before I have time to fire lap but I'll be sure to update with the results.

[cowboy4evr]

Using a tight fitting patch checking for rough spots , constrictions in a barrel is meaningless . It takes a soft lead slug , trust me on this . Regards Paul

[onelight]

Using a tight fitting patch checking for rough spots , constrictions in a barrel is meaningless . It takes a soft lead slug , trust me on this . Regards Paul
I don't find it meaningless , for me it's a strong hint I need to slug it , and it's part of cleaning at my house it does not hurt to pay attention to the feedback you get . You can also feel a bulge you can't see with a tight patch and jag another hint you need further investigation and if the bore is normally smooth when clean you can feel leading that is hard to see without a bore scope pay attention when cleaning you can find things that are not right :)

[ddixie884]

I'm interested.......

[Horseman]

Update - I prepared 24 fire lapping loads - Beartooth lapping bullets and their lapping compound. If anyone has a link to a video on preparing lapping bullets I'd love to see it. I did my best to follow Marshall's instructions - I rolled mine for about 60-90 seconds each between steel plates with moderate pressure. After that, I couldn't see them getting any darker. I then buttered the lube groove with compound and seated the bullets to where the bearing surfaces were all inside the case, just the ogive protruding. Very tedious and time consuming. I settled on two grains of Trail Boss, hoping to get in the 450 fps range. I had four or five bullets stick which were easily driven back down and out with a wooden dowel. I'll probably bump my charge to 2.2 to avoid that hassle in the future.

I cleaned the bore and cylinder thoroughly after every six shots. I also lightly oiled the barrel after cleaning and pushed the slug I used for slugging the bore through the barrel. I could tell I was making progress as the constrictions felt less severe after each 6 shots but it still remains at both ends of the barrel. As a test, I tried 12 rounds of COWW loads (7.0 Unique under 250 Keith) at .431 lubed with White Label BAC. I’m still getting about the same amount of leading in the first inch as when I started but I will say it is much easier to remove now. I will try another 12-24 lapping loads and hopefully start to see the leading subside. If anyone sees an issue with my lapping process, I’d appreciate hearing from you. Also curious what others have experienced in terms of number of loads required to remove the constriction in a Ruger.

[onelight]

My SS 45 convertible got 60 rounds of lapping and still has a little restriction but it is much better . That took all day cleaning every six rounds and checking it. It probably needs another 20 or 30.
I have not lapped a blued barrel but have heard they don't take as many rounds to get cleaned up.

[Char-Gar]

When this kind of thread comes up, my mind always goes toward expectations. When folks who shoot cast bullets say "no leading" they are not talking about "no leading" as in shooting jacketed bullets. There is always some kind of powder trash, lube and lead wash left in the barrel. This stuff cleans out pretty easy and is just part of the game. Now if the accuracy goes south due to the crap in the barrel before a hundred rounds, then you have leading and time to look for a fix. Leading vs. no leading is determined by the target and not looking down the barrel. You will go nuts trying to get a lead alloy bullet leave a barrel as clean as a jacketed bullet.

[Alferd Packer]

I would try a much softer lead mix and a softer lube.
I believe the lube which gets sized along with the bullets is just hitching a ride along with the bullet and does no lubing atall.
A softer bullet would obturate and squeeze out some lube on the way thru.
Also helps to run a lightly lubed patch back and forth in the bore so you are not starting with a dry bore.
I always lube for lead.
Can't hurt.
It works for me.
I would also run a couple hundred jacketed bullets down the bore too, just to knock off any rough edges.
Then clean real good and proceed with the lead loads.

[Horseman]

Char-Gar - good points and appreciate the suggestions. The leading I'm experiencing here is significant - as in requiring the chore-boy on a mop treatment where slivers and chunks of lead come out. It's all at the threads so I think I'm on the right track with lapping. I don't think I've mentioned accuracy - it's pretty bad, averaging about 5" at 25 yds. I'm not a great shot but based on what I'm able to do with my other revolvers on the bags, I'm confident there's a lot of room for improvement with this gun. Alferd - others have mentioned the softer alloy and I'm not ignoring that advice, but I want to limit how many things I change at once. I'll give that a try once I'm satisfied that I've removed most of the constriction. Based on all the feedback on this board, I'm pretty sure I'm in a good spot with the BAC lube. It is pretty soft and what a pleasure to work with after years of using the hard stuff. All the good reviews on White Label (the lube and the people) were warranted IMO.

[olskool]

i have the same gun. i shoot 50% soft lead 50% WW i use beeswax and olive oil mix made into round sticks for my star lube sizer. crayon lube is worthless! if you dig the boolit out of the ground the lube groove will still contain it, you want a lube that dose something other than have color. it should coat the bore and spin off the rest in flight. i get no lead to worry about. i shoot a 429421 and a lee boolit.

[gwpercle]

In handguns soft lubes that do not require a heater work much better . And after 50 years of playing with boolits and lubes one of the better is a Lithium - Beeswax Lube ...
1 part Lithium Grease and 3 parts beeswax ...
not a 50/50 (1 to 1 ) blend ... that has too much grease and is too soft .
Hard lubes that require heat ... Blue and Red hard lube tends to stay in the boolit lube groove where it does nothing .
Gary

[waco]

When this kind of thread comes up, my mind always goes toward expectations. When folks who shoot cast bullets say "no leading" they are not talking about "no leading" as in shooting jacketed bullets. There is always some kind of powder trash, lube and lead wash left in the barrel. This stuff cleans out pretty easy and is just part of the game. Now if the accuracy goes south due to the crap in the barrel before a hundred rounds, then you have leading and time to look for a fix. Leading vs. no leading is determined by the target and not looking down the barrel. You will go nuts trying to get a lead alloy bullet leave a barrel as clean as a jacketed bullet.

Charles has a very good point here. I would heed his advice.

[ddixie884]

Sounds like you are on the right track.......