Low velocity BPCR loads?

[Jim]

Has anyone ever done any research on low velocity loads using BP in cartridges? I know that air space in a load can cause dangerous pressures, but somewhere between no powder and too much, seems like there would be a charge that would just poof a RB out of a barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

J. S. Wolf did. It is in his book; Loading Cartridges For The Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine.

He used 4-6 gr of fffg with the RB pushed down inside the case on top of the powder charge. 5 gr of FFFg gives 650+ fps with little smoke. A short piece of dowel is used inside the seating die to seat the RB farther into the case. Make sure you seat the ball on top of the powder. Cases need not be sized and work better if they are well fire formed. Of coarse a smidgeon of PB lube should be on the RB.

Larry Gibson

[Jim]

That'll work! Thanks again.

[montana_charlie]

I want a REALLY low velocity load for a 45/90.
I want to drive a bullet halfway through the bore, but not have it exit.

I tried just using a magnum primer, and it didn't have enough zoom to get the bullet all the way out of the case.

Any ideas? Any relatively SAFE ideas?
I'm open to both...
CM

[45 2.1]

I want a REALLY low velocity load for a 45/90.
I want to drive a bullet halfway through the bore, but not have it exit.

I tried just using a magnum primer, and it didn't have enough zoom to get the bullet all the way out of the case.

Any ideas? Any relatively SAFE ideas?
I'm open to both...
CM


Paco Kelly has written about this several times ( titled something like "silent loads"). He used a heavy for caliber boolit with very low charges of bullseye. I would try about two gr. and go down if it exits.

[montana_charlie]

He used a heavy for caliber boolit with very low charges of bullseye. I would try about two gr. and go down if it exits.
That sounds like a useful place to start thinking.
Of course I don't have any Bullseye, and I used up my last can of Unique years ago.
I will do some research on Bullseye to see if I have anything that might substitute for it in these tiny quantities. I can't see buying a whole pound just to burn 10 or 15 grains.

Would a shotgun powder like Red Dot or SR-4756 be totally out of the question?
I have some ancient cans of those two...
CM

[longhorn]

I just gotta ask, Charlie--why are you trying to stick a bullet in the barrel? Trying to measure the "choke" in your barrel? I stuck a j-word bullet in a .308 once, and it was no fun at all! Still have a scar (this involves a rawhide mallet and a cleaning rod.......) just to job my memory.

[montana_charlie]

I just gotta ask, Charlie--why are you trying to stick a bullet in the barrel? Trying to measure the "choke" in your barrel?
Now you sound like my Dad, "What on Earth made you try such a crazy stunt, Knothead!?! I swear! If you live to see eleven it will be God's own miracle?"

Of course, he said that at least twice a year, and had to keep bumping up the age number. I guess I've seen 62 'miracles', now.

Actually, I want to make some paper patched bullets travel into the bore (under their own power) to see how the patch acts as it goes through the throat.
But I want to see how they look while still intact...without any 'impact' modifications to any part of the package.

That's my story and I'm...well, you know...
CM

[454PB]

Red Dot is just slightly slower burning than Bullseye, seems to me it should work.

[John Boy]

Charlie, 1 - 2gr of Red Dot will keep the bullet in the bore - IIRC. I shot some 500gr 45-70's into a test box using 3gr of Red Dot

[martinibelgian]

CM,

One thing to keep in mind - your theory will work with groove-diameter bullets. If you're shooting bore dia. bullets, then you won't have bullet expansion, which will give you a wrong result

[45 2.1]

CM,

One thing to keep in mind - your theory will work with groove-diameter bullets. If you're shooting bore dia. bullets, then you won't have bullet expansion, which will give you a wrong result

A very good point............ If you don't have enough pressure to obturate the patched slug, your test will give false results.

[montana_charlie]

One thing to keep in mind - your theory will work with groove-diameter bullets.A very good point............ If you don't have enough pressure to obturate the patched slug, your test will give false results.
No worries, Gentlemen.
I have been focused on the 'patched-to-groove' method ever since I came to believe that it might work best in my chamber dimensions.

Thanks for your interest.

Red Dot it will be, John Boy...
CM

[longhorn]

I wonder if our fathers knew each other--they sure used some of the same phrases. I've played a little with paper patching, and I don't think you need obturation. After all, you can patch solids (see Seyfried's writings.) And I've patched JHP .451 diameter pistol bullets and achieved reasonable accuracy in a .45-70; recovered bullets didn't show any rifling marks.........I'd be interested in your results.

[RMulhern]

I wonder if our fathers knew each other--they sure used some of the same phrases. I've played a little with paper patching, and I don't think you need obturation. After all, you can patch solids (see Seyfried's writings.) And I've patched JHP .451 diameter pistol bullets and achieved reasonable accuracy in a .45-70; recovered bullets didn't show any rifling marks.........I'd be interested in your results.

Longhorn

If there is NO OBTURATION.....'blow-by' will exist destroying the structural integrity of the patch....and then you'll have 'leading' of the bore! You can possibly get away with the method using 'jacketed bullets'....but not shooting cast lead bullets with a standard loading.:holysheep:smile:

[montana_charlie]

I wonder if our fathers knew each other--they sure used some of the same phrases.
Could be...even though (as you know) the Texas Panhandle is worlds away from the Texas Hill Country.
CM

[martinibelgian]

OTOH,
Iy you have a nice, tight chamber and a groove (+) dia. bullet, no obturation is needed. I know that when I pop the primer on an empty case with a bullet in, the case will auto-eject when opening the action. Kinda proves your chamber design is pretty sound.

[montana_charlie]

mb,
I experienced that auto ejection last night after pumping the bore full of whatever 1.5 grains of Red Dot can produce.
Even though I was kinda expecting it after having previously read your post it was somewhat disconcerting.

That empty acted like it had someplace else to be...and was way late getting there.
CM

[martinibelgian]

:-D
I would believe that! I know that the primer alone already popped out the case nicely, so add to that some powder, and things would indeed quite a bit more 'vigorous'!
Just shows your teories are validated. Luckily you didn't try to stop the case with your thumb...
Still, congrats on a successful experiment - would you mind posting a pic of the bullet recovered?

[montana_charlie]

Still, congrats on a successful experiment - would you mind posting a pic of the bullet recovered?
If you insist...

Here is a comparison shot.
If you want to nail me for the fact that the patch is too long (on the fresh one), and the end overlaps at the seam...I confess I did poorly. But I'm still adjusting the dimensions of my template.

The test bullet shows the rifling marks created by 'slugging up' from my pounding (the shiney part) and those made where the paper was pressed into the lead by the lands (the textured part).

The bullet base is slightly flared, but that was because it smacked pretty hard against the closed breech block when it popped out of the bore...on my last whack.

I created that novel nose shape (on the driven slug) by knocking it out with the ramrod from my .45 T/C Hawken. It was too short to finish the job...until I screwed the cleaning jag on.
CM

[texasmac]

CM,
So what did the patch look like after extracting the bullet?
Wayne

[montana_charlie]

It looked just like it did when I rolled it on, with these exceptions.

It was hard and slick from being compressed between lead and steel.
It was pretty dirty (on the top layer) from being pushed backward through the primer and powder residue.
It was cut through in 'tiny strips' which matched the length of the patch, and the width of the rifling.
The inner layer was not cut very deep, but the bullet had not been obdurated by a full charge. Total patch thickness is close to rifling depth, so I think a normal load will (at least) 'deeply score' the inner layer to make it fragment on exit from the muzzle.

CM

[longhorn]

Ah, Charlie--I was raised in the Panhandle; I just got out of there as fast as I could. My paper patch experience is pretty limited, maybe 1000 rounds, but some of the errors I've made (too-small bullets with too-thick patching) still has me convinced that obturation isn't necessary if patched diameter is correct.